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Re:In One Tweet, Kylie Jenner Wiped Out $1.3B of Snap's Mark... by farrelljohn on Thursday February 22, 2018 @01:11PM (#16439782)
This whole recent update to Snapchat has been horrible in almost every way. Haven't heard a single good thing from the people I know who use it. My question is how does an update that is almost universally hated by the user base get through to production? Does Snapchat not have any user feedback in their design or is it simply "How can we make more money"?

Seems to me Snapchat forgot the most important thing about a products profitability: the customers.

Re:In One Tweet, Kylie Jenner Wiped Out $1.3B of Snap's Mark... by aaronbrethorst on Thursday February 22, 2018 @01:46PM (#16440156)
My question is how does an update that is almost universally hated by the user base get through to production?

Evan Spiegel is convinced that he's the second coming of Steve Jobs. http://www.businessinsider.com/what-its-like-to-work-at-snap...

Re:In One Tweet, Kylie Jenner Wiped Out $1.3B of Snap's Mark... by ilamont on Thursday February 22, 2018 @01:22PM (#16439907)
Some years ago Hootsuite changed the way a feature called "social picker" worked. It was a major change, and many power users (people managing multiple accounts or brand accounts) pointed out that it made their work a lot harder and more prone to error. Hootsuite's response: blaming users' "fear of change" for the reaction (1).

Later someone from the company apologized, and said that "extensive user testing" had been done, but they clearly missed an important segment of the market.

1. https://in30minutes.com/hootsuite-takes-the-low-road-blames-...

Re:In One Tweet, Kylie Jenner Wiped Out $1.3B of Snap's Mark... by nerfhammer on Thursday February 22, 2018 @01:26PM (#16439945)
Thing is, some segment of users will always go nuts whenever you change anything. If you're in charge of product development it's hard to take any particular moment of outrage too seriously.
Re:In One Tweet, Kylie Jenner Wiped Out $1.3B of Snap's Mark... by cornholio on Thursday February 22, 2018 @01:53PM (#16440220)
If you are in product development, the lesson is that any change has a cost and impact to your users, so you need to make sure that the benefits outweigh the cost and plan for resistance.

That's entirely different from "they will complain no mater what you do so you should ignore them".

Re:In One Tweet, Kylie Jenner Wiped Out $1.3B of Snap's Mark... by nerfhammer on Thursday February 22, 2018 @03:24PM (#16441053)
Is there any indication that hadn't happened here? Is Snap really that stupid? Did they not test this at all? If so, that's the big story.

Unspecified numbers of users complaining isn't a terribly sufficient story. I recall lots of facebook "boycotts" over the years ago over various UI changes, totally forgotten after a day or two. I suspect they actually a/b tested each change in small markets or test audiences and found usage increased after people got used to it. If Snap isn't doing that then that should be big news.

Re:In One Tweet, Kylie Jenner Wiped Out $1.3B of Snap's Mark... by daxorid on Thursday February 22, 2018 @07:02PM (#16442825)
Another option that product development ought to consider is choice.

Determine the ongoing cost of maintaining two different user interfaces versus the benefit of permitting users to choose their preferred interface.

If properly engineered, with low impedance mismatch between API and UI, the cost could be kept reasonably low for most applications.

Re:In One Tweet, Kylie Jenner Wiped Out $1.3B of Snap's Mark... by AJRF on Thursday February 22, 2018 @02:55PM (#16440841)
So much this.

I don't think you should be given free reign to just accept outrage because that's the way you think things need to be.

You ultimately need to continually make improvements, not change for change sake.

Re:In One Tweet, Kylie Jenner Wiped Out $1.3B of Snap's Mark... by torstenvl on Thursday February 22, 2018 @01:54PM (#16440248)
That's a non-sequitur if I've ever seen one. A non-negligible portion of users are conservative in their tastes for UI change... therefore ignore a non-negligible portion of your users.

That attitude is exactly what's wrong with the tech world today.

Re:In One Tweet, Kylie Jenner Wiped Out $1.3B of Snap's Mark... by majormajor on Thursday February 22, 2018 @02:06PM (#16440386)
It's more subtle than that.

A significant number of people will complain at first even if the change doesn't hurt them. People just like the familiar - but then, they also eventually get bored with it! So damned if you do, damned if you don't...

So the takeaway isn't "ignore them" it's "listen closely enough to be able to tell 'is this just a reflex or did I unintentionally hamper their use of the app in a way I didn't anticipate?'" Can they still get their stuff done easily, once they get accustomed to the new way, or are there things we actually made unnecessarily worse?

Re:In One Tweet, Kylie Jenner Wiped Out $1.3B of Snap's Mark... by hawkice on Thursday February 22, 2018 @02:07PM (#16440397)
>> It was a major change, and many power users (people managing multiple accounts or brand accounts) pointed out that it made their work a lot harder and more prone to error.

> hard to take any particular moment of outrage too seriously.

Apparently 'outrage' is when dedicated users mention their work was made more difficult and prone to error.

The HN community can listen to customer feedback better than this.

Re:In One Tweet, Kylie Jenner Wiped Out $1.3B of Snap's Mark... by nakedrobot2 on Thursday February 22, 2018 @01:53PM (#16440218)
Yes, this is very true. Can anyone name an update or design of software that was applauded by the majority of users? I can't.
Re:In One Tweet, Kylie Jenner Wiped Out $1.3B of Snap's Mark... by torstenvl on Thursday February 22, 2018 @01:55PM (#16440269)
Windows '95 over Windows 3.11

Mac OS X Tiger over Mac OS X Panther

Windows 7 over Windows Vista

Re:In One Tweet, Kylie Jenner Wiped Out $1.3B of Snap's Mark... by addicted on Thursday February 22, 2018 @11:40PM (#16444287)
Until about Snow Leopard pretty much every Mac OS X update was almost universally considered much better than the ones before (though the truism that you avoid a new Mac OS X update on a primary computer till 10.x.1 still held).
Re:In One Tweet, Kylie Jenner Wiped Out $1.3B of Snap's Mark... by justboxing on Thursday February 22, 2018 @03:42PM (#16441187)
> Does Snapchat not have any user feedback in their design

Apparently they don't even solicit feedback from their own inhouse employees, so I doubt they solicit it from control groups / influential users

> Compared to the "dogfooding" tradition in many tech companies, where employees try out their products before releasing them to the public, most Snap employees don't know when a new product is coming — regardless if it would affect their team's long-term metrics or goals. When the company launched Lenses, its famous filters that morph people's faces, most employees learned about it for the first time on the company blog post announcing it to the world.

Source: OP.

Re:In One Tweet, Kylie Jenner Wiped Out $1.3B of Snap's Mark... by jbob2000 on Thursday February 22, 2018 @01:16PM (#16439836)
The lesson for Snapchat, and really any new software company, is that design updates need to roll out slowly. You cannot drop a boat load of changes on users. Facebook learned this early on when they introduced the new wall and news feed. Now they allow you to preview design changes before they get fully rolled out.

The design changes aren't necessarily bad, it still looks and operates fine. Snapchat just made the rookie mistake of changing everything at once before anyone could orient themselves around the changes.

Re:In One Tweet, Kylie Jenner Wiped Out $1.3B of Snap's Mark... by Spooky23 on Thursday February 22, 2018 @01:22PM (#16439903)
It’s typical tech hubris. For a consumer product, changes that are convenient to product development are almost always shitty for the customer.
Re:In One Tweet, Kylie Jenner Wiped Out $1.3B of Snap's Mark... by noobermin on Thursday February 22, 2018 @01:36PM (#16440049)
The issue here is assuming that the users of said sites are their customers. They are not.

When you are selling beef, do you worry about how the cows feel about it?

Re:In One Tweet, Kylie Jenner Wiped Out $1.3B of Snap's Mark... by the-pigeon on Thursday February 22, 2018 @01:51PM (#16440203)
You might not but you should.

If you don't care about the welfare of your cows they will not grow as large and you'll have less product to sell.

Putting that in more literal terms, if you damage the user experience you will damage user engagement and your ad revenue is going to fall.

There's certainly tricks to treat the cows poorly and still profit for a while but this sort of behavior has killed many companies.

Re:In One Tweet, Kylie Jenner Wiped Out $1.3B of Snap's Mark... by Spooky23 on Thursday February 22, 2018 @04:30PM (#16441569)
Like I said, tech hubris. If you don't feed the cow, you won't be selling too much beef.

To use an animal aphorism used in the context of Wall St, "Bulls run, pigs get slaughtered."

Re:In One Tweet, Kylie Jenner Wiped Out $1.3B of Snap's Mark... by _r_o_y_ on Thursday February 22, 2018 @01:50PM (#16440194)
You do if it affects the way the beef sells.
Re:In One Tweet, Kylie Jenner Wiped Out $1.3B of Snap's Mark... by noobermin on Thursday February 22, 2018 @02:00PM (#16440325)
Right. Was going to add that ammendum, but didn't get around to it.

The point is users are ancillary, not the primary means of revenue. Whenever there is that mismatch, you'll have issues like this.

Re:In One Tweet, Kylie Jenner Wiped Out $1.3B of Snap's Mark... by noblethrasher on Thursday February 22, 2018 @01:22PM (#16439893)
eBay is a famous case study of this: https://theuxblog.com/blog/redesigning-user-experience
Re:In One Tweet, Kylie Jenner Wiped Out $1.3B of Snap's Mark... by radicalbyte on Thursday February 22, 2018 @01:45PM (#16440142)
Facebook, LinkedIn and Twitter all did this. They're all spammy and terribly broken crapholes which I now barely use. If there were viable alternatives I'd eliminate that barely.
Re:In One Tweet, Kylie Jenner Wiped Out $1.3B of Snap's Mark... by rob-olmos on Thursday February 22, 2018 @01:48PM (#16440171)
I'm also suspicious of the amount of testing that's being done. More than once the app was posting a completely black pic for every snap, lasting at least a couple days. I stopped using it after this last time it started doing that again.
Re:In One Tweet, Kylie Jenner Wiped Out $1.3B of Snap's Mark... by parliament32 on Thursday February 22, 2018 @04:28PM (#16441558)
Being in the beta program, I've been dealing with the redesign for a few months now. I've mostly forgotten what the major changes were, but: I'm happy that the advertising "Discover" crap is put away on its own page, and I hate how hard it is to view my friends' stories now.

What do you dislike about it?

Re:In One Tweet, Kylie Jenner Wiped Out $1.3B of Snap's Mark... by patmcc on Thursday February 22, 2018 @02:55PM (#16440843)
>>My question is how does an update that is almost universally hated by the user base get through to production?

I think a lot of us are jealous of your work history right now - the answer to that question is almost always "the person who can fire me/signs my paycheck thought it was a good idea".

Re:In One Tweet, Kylie Jenner Wiped Out $1.3B of Snap's Mark... by empath75 on Thursday February 22, 2018 @01:31PM (#16440001)
Digg died basically overnight after a redesign. It happens.
Re:In One Tweet, Kylie Jenner Wiped Out $1.3B of Snap's Mark... by sp00ls on Thursday February 22, 2018 @01:46PM (#16440154)
Reddit is looking like they might suffer a similar misstep. Not quite on the same level as Digg suffered for a number of reasons but still. They've been slowly rolling out and previewing a UI redesign. Comments on their UI redesign preview posts are overwhelmingly negative but they just keep pushing forward anyway. I don't understand why this is almost always the case.
Re:In One Tweet, Kylie Jenner Wiped Out $1.3B of Snap's Mark... by babesh on Thursday February 22, 2018 @02:01PM (#16440336)
It is usually because the design is some PM's means of getting promoted. It wouldn't look good if your work gets trashed. So it gets pushed all the way through and then they leave for greener pastures by touting the work they have done.

Someone else gets to reap the damage they have sown. But engineers do the same thing.

In this case, Snapchat just seems to be copying feeds to make money. And Wall Street is breathing down their necks.

Re:In One Tweet, Kylie Jenner Wiped Out $1.3B of Snap's Mark... by technofiend on Thursday February 22, 2018 @02:16PM (#16440479)
Their toxic community will kill them if a revamp doesn't.
Re:In One Tweet, Kylie Jenner Wiped Out $1.3B of Snap's Mark... by addicted on Thursday February 22, 2018 @11:47PM (#16444316)
Most redesigns go pretty deep before users are included. And by then your investment, financial, emotional and in lost time, is so high people try and rationalize the negative reactions and justify why users will turn around after a while.

What makes it difficult that even the most perfect change will elicit negative reactions from users. It's difficult to then separate what is a natural reaction to change from genuine problems in the new design.

Re:In One Tweet, Kylie Jenner Wiped Out $1.3B of Snap's Mark... by officemonkey on Thursday February 22, 2018 @01:37PM (#16440057)
There was also a rapidly-maturing Reddit waiting in the wings.

If you have a moat, you can weather the storm after a design snafu. If you don't? @Jack, you dead.

Re:In One Tweet, Kylie Jenner Wiped Out $1.3B of Snap's Mark... by antisthenes on Thursday February 22, 2018 @01:48PM (#16440174)
Makes one wonder if Reddit has a moat. I liked their conservative design so far, but there seem to be cracks appearing the form of 'mobilization' of the user profile page for example.

Seems to be the trend of the last 5 years of making the desktop experience broken/annoying in some way or form and the mobile experience - ad-ridden and designed for momentary rather than deep engagement.

Re:In One Tweet, Kylie Jenner Wiped Out $1.3B of Snap's Mark... by criley2 on Thursday February 22, 2018 @01:54PM (#16440253)
I think Reddit still has a moat.

There have been attempts to do something else, such as voat, but those generally become either A) more akin to subreddits than reddit (like this very site) or B) ideological havens for groups not welcome on reddit.

In voat's case, when reddit begin banning overt racism from white supremacists and calls for violence, as well as communities dedicated to hating fat people or women, those radicalized users all fled to voat. That toxic core userbase makes the site untenable for the masses who are repulsed by such naked racism, prejudice and other evil content.

So I don't really see anyone waiting in the reddit wings. The ones that were there before are still there (SA, fark, /.), and the ones that follow aren't poised to be the same thing.

Re:In One Tweet, Kylie Jenner Wiped Out $1.3B of Snap's Mark... by empath75 on Friday February 23, 2018 @08:16AM (#16446098)
Reddit doesn’t have a moat, IMO, because they don’t have a social graph. It’s like Facebook for strangers. Someone could wipe them out over night because users don’t really have any connection to each other.
Re:In One Tweet, Kylie Jenner Wiped Out $1.3B of Snap's Mark... by acmecorps on Thursday February 22, 2018 @01:52PM (#16440208)
Yeah, I remembered Digg. It's fascinating (in a bad way, really) to see something so giant, suddenly crashed so hard in a very short period of time. I'm always wondering if reddit will go down that way too.
Re:In One Tweet, Kylie Jenner Wiped Out $1.3B of Snap's Mark... by mayneack on Thursday February 22, 2018 @01:54PM (#16440252)
I really enjoy the update. I've posted this before, but I like the focus on my friends, the isolation of the branded content, and the ability to mute specific people's stories. I hope people get used to it rather than rolling it back or killing the app.
Re:In One Tweet, Kylie Jenner Wiped Out $1.3B of Snap's Mark... by quasse on Thursday February 22, 2018 @01:18PM (#16439847)
I'm possibly starting to age out of the target market, but Snapchat has done a great job of getting me move to Instagram stories for my "social media" type content (vs. individual targeted stuff, which Snapchat still works all right for).
Re:In One Tweet, Kylie Jenner Wiped Out $1.3B of Snap's Mark... by pdkl95 on Thursday February 22, 2018 @06:14PM (#16442480)
> Does Snapchat not have any user feedback

This is the most important lesson for any service that depends on a community of users for survival: involve them in the update process, or you will scare them away. Even if the new version is objectively better (which is rare), unexpected changes cause confusion and anger.

I encourage anybody involved in making this kind of service to watch this[1] talk from NOTACON by Joe Peacock of fark.com about their experience deploying a surprise redesign, then compounding the anger with their infamous reply:

> You'll get over it.

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YnVeysllPDI

Re:In One Tweet, Kylie Jenner Wiped Out $1.3B of Snap's Mark... by eyeareque on Thursday February 22, 2018 @01:54PM (#16440244)
I use the app daily and I have to say while the new version is different and a bit rough, i still like where they are headed. With some tweaks I believe it will be better than the old and more confusing design
Re:In One Tweet, Kylie Jenner Wiped Out $1.3B of Snap's Mark... by raverbashing on Thursday February 22, 2018 @02:01PM (#16440341)
1 - Company makes innovative product with crappy UI (Vine/Snapchat)

2 - Instagram copies the idea and improved the interface

3 - Company becomes irrelevant

4 - Rinse/repeat