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Re:How does ‘class-passing’ actually work? by dizzystar on Thursday February 01, 2018 @01:48PM (#16284517)
This article resonates with me on many levels. I went from below $10/hr to 5x that and never experienced anything in between. The struggle is huge, and I keep having to look inside myself to figure out what "my people" is supposed to mean.

A huge different that's obvious to me is the language we use. I often wonder why no one's mother didn't fill the these people's mouth with dawn liquid soap and slap the child silly, but then I realize that honesty wasn't a life or death situation for them. I'm often called brutally blunt, but really, I'm very tame compared to most people I grew up around.

As a real example, we often get articles on Hacker News that discusses the best way to hire, best way to land a job, best way to self-learn, and so on. It took me years to realize that these articles were all shaded in a heavy fog of bullshit, and it took me many years to realize that the posters who upvote and share these articles are not only aware of the heavy fog, but are able to read though the fog. If I was able to go back in time and tell my autodidact self on thing, it was to learn about bullshit, and it's something I always advise those who trying to self learn.

Re:How does ‘class-passing’ actually work? by athenot on Thursday February 01, 2018 @02:18PM (#16284880)
> it took me many years to realize that the posters who upvote and share these articles are not only aware of the heavy fog, but are able to read though the fog

Follow the money.

I'm always asking myself "what does this author have to gain from writing this, or holding that position?" It can happen that there is absolutely no financial motive, many times it's pure greed but often it's on a continuum that's a mix of both profit and helping people out.

As an example it's common to find articles about technical problem and how {{top-organization}} solved it with {{state-of-the-art}} solution. The last paragraph is "oh by the way, we're hiring". While there's a profit motive in this form of content marketing, there's also genuine help being passed along.

Business recommendations tend to be a bit more skewed towards the profit side, and financial recommendations… well those are a class of their own.

A health dose of suspicion goes a long way to sort out the BS.

Re:How does ‘class-passing’ actually work? by godelski on Thursday February 01, 2018 @04:36PM (#16286145)
There is also an ego aspect to it. When people have done well they think it is all skill. Look at people who were really successful on crypto and now give financial advise as if they were an economist. Or go to a casino and talk to someone after they win big.

What they can gain is in the ego as well. Though I 100% agree, always follow the money. But never underestimate how often things are written with the purpose of saying "look how great I am, you should envy me."

Re:How does ‘class-passing’ actually work? by hiuaql on Thursday February 01, 2018 @03:49PM (#16285736)
You don't have to look to greed or malice, but simply the fact that people carry their unexamined biases with them when they speak their opinions.

> > > it took me many years to realize that the posters who upvote and share these articles are not only aware of the heavy fog, but are able to read though the fog

They aren't aware of the fog, they have the same subconscious biased perspective that makes the fog look like normal to them.

Re:How does ‘class-passing’ actually work? by dionidium on Thursday February 01, 2018 @02:30PM (#16285022)
> "The struggle is huge, and I keep having to look inside myself to figure out what "my people" is supposed to mean."

For me, the weirdest part is the way in which the upper-middle class people I now associate and work with talk about "my people" (i.e. the working-class folks I grew up with). They mythologize them as the noble, hard-working, salt of the earth, when in reality, they clearly don't like most of their habits, their religion, their tastes, their opinions, their language, or much else about them. Poor and working-class people are described in archetypes, stereotypes, and as abstract ideas. But very little said matches what I know about actual poor people. They are always -- always -- praised when spoken of in the abstract. But when the conversation drifts toward the specific, it's pretty clear that they're not really big fans.

I find myself simultaneously defending the behaviors of the working class while also walking upper-class liberals back a few steps on just how noble and hard-working -- they're always described as hard-working -- most actual poor people really are. They're just people.

Re:How does ‘class-passing’ actually work? by JBlue42 on Thursday February 01, 2018 @02:47PM (#16285186)
This is a good point.

We've been idealizing rural / commoner folk for a while. IIRC, French nobility in the 18th or 19th century had the habit of running out to the country and playacting as peasants for fun.

Not to mention there's a glut of 'rural/blue collar porn', (Duck Dynasty, etc) or at least there was a few years back. Some of that maybe people watched condescendingly but there could also be the tendency of portraying these folks as knowing something others do not.

Re:How does ‘class-passing’ actually work? by hiuaql on Thursday February 01, 2018 @03:52PM (#16285766)
Duck Dynasty's audience was not substantially less rural / blue collar than the cast.

There's a glut of "urban white collar porn": Nearly all mainstream television sitcoms and dramas.

Re:How does ‘class-passing’ actually work? by JBlue42 on Thursday February 01, 2018 @04:35PM (#16286138)
Think I had this older article in the back of my head when writing that:

http://www.slate.com/articles/arts/culturebox/2012/08/here_c...

I don't disagree about urban white collar porn (sitcoms, dramas, sure but all those house hunting shows too) but neither of these were the main thrust of my comment.

Re:How does ‘class-passing’ actually work? by Retric on Thursday February 01, 2018 @02:46PM (#16285178)
I work with plenty of people that may put in a "hard" 2-3 hours of actual work a day. Comparing effort and every poor person I grew up with actually worked really hard.

If anything it's coded language for 'working hard is a great way to end up poor'.

PS: Consider all the "hardworking" people here on HN. Yes, long hours may be expected, but effort has little direct benefit.

Re:How does ‘class-passing’ actually work? by dionidium on Thursday February 01, 2018 @10:40PM (#16288216)
No doubt. They are hard workers, hustlers (in the best sense of the word), scammers, grifters, and some of the laziest folks I've ever met -- and everything in between.

They're just people. When the upper-classes talk about the poor as all good or all bad it's always in the context of selling you their politics.

Re:How does ‘class-passing’ actually work? by ShabbosGoy on Thursday February 01, 2018 @03:24PM (#16285523)
There’s a difference between working hard and working smart. One is the brute force solution. The other uses a heuristic to narrow the solution space.
Re:How does ‘class-passing’ actually work? by emodendroket on Thursday February 01, 2018 @04:05PM (#16285880)
I think the point here is that in white-collar workplaces long hours are mostly an abstract way of signaling that you take the job seriously, not exhausting in the way that long hours in a job demanding physical labor would be.
Re:How does ‘class-passing’ actually work? by gbacon on Thursday February 01, 2018 @04:24PM (#16286044)
There are different kinds of tired — physically exhausted, brain-fried, and emotionally spent — but I’m not making any sort of comparison between them.
Re:How does ‘class-passing’ actually work? by emodendroket on Thursday February 01, 2018 @04:27PM (#16286068)
Yeah, but the guy who always stays after at work, how much of his time is work and how much of it is browsing Reddit?
Re:How does ‘class-passing’ actually work? by gbacon on Thursday February 01, 2018 @05:23PM (#16286494)
Fair question. Is that person slacking, projecting, coping, or percolating?
Re:How does ‘class-passing’ actually work? by ShabbosGoy on Thursday February 01, 2018 @05:51PM (#16286719)
They’re signaling to management. Plain and simple.
Re:How does ‘class-passing’ actually work? by emodendroket on Thursday February 01, 2018 @04:02PM (#16285855)
You know, this is interesting, because I have a different, but I think somewhat related, experience. I am from a pretty comfortable background but I'm a lifelong suburbanite and now live in one of Boston's less tony suburbs. I work in Boston, though, and there is a lot of kind of subterranean contempt for the "townies" who live in these places and their tastes and habits (naturally enough many of them I share and I like my neighbors, making that a little uncomfortable). People blithely say things like "oh, yeah, it's full of white trash over there." And if you tell people in Boston you're visiting from one of these suburbs a lot of them act like you just said you flew in from Idaho, never mind that a ton of people take a train to Boston every single day. People can find a lot of different reasons to be snobs.
Re:How does ‘class-passing’ actually work? by dizzystar on Thursday February 01, 2018 @02:58PM (#16285297)
At some point you end up in this in between world, where the office worker sees you as a car mechanic and the car mechanic sees you as an office worker. This gray area is very difficult to navigate and causes severe identity crisis.
Re:How does ‘class-passing’ actually work? by ambicapter on Thursday February 01, 2018 @02:13PM (#16284823)
> As a real example, we often get articles on Hacker News that discusses the best way to hire, best way to land a job, best way to self-learn, and so on. It took me years to realize that these articles were all shaded in a heavy fog of bullshit, and it took me many years to realize that the posters who upvote and share these articles are not only aware of the heavy fog, but are able to read though the fog. If I was able to go back in time and tell my autodidact self on thing, it was to learn about bullshit, and it's something I always advise those who trying to self learn.

Tell me more, please.

Re:How does ‘class-passing’ actually work? by dizzystar on Thursday February 01, 2018 @02:30PM (#16285021)
Nearly every bit of advice you read on interviews and how to get a job never happens in the real world.

You can imagine how scary it is to read all the super tough questions, going to the whiteboard, having to discuss passion projects, needing a solid github profile, knowing algorithms, data structures, strange math, and on and on.

You start interviewing and you see that none of the above happens 99% of the time. You wasted 2 years learning a bunch of stuff when you really should have been interviewing six months after writing your first line of code.

Re:How does ‘class-passing’ actually work? by icebraining on Thursday February 01, 2018 @03:19PM (#16285485)
I'd say that's more of a selection bias that bullshit. The only companies blogging about interviewing are the few ones that actually have made a conscious decision to deviate from the norm (regardless of the reasons).

It's like if you were trying to evaluate the average math proficiency of the population by only reading blog posts about math. It would seem like everyone really knew math! Except of course, the only people who blog about math are the few that are into it. They're not bullshitting, they're just overrepresented.

Not that I disagree with your original point, by the way; BS is rampant.

Re:How does ‘class-passing’ actually work? by rsp1984 on Thursday February 01, 2018 @04:57PM (#16286310)
You start interviewing and you see that none of the above happens 99% of the time. You wasted 2 years learning a bunch of stuff when you really should have been interviewing six months after writing your first line of code.

I agree with this. I have interviewed a good amount of engineers, both as a SWE at Google as well as founder of my own company. From that experience I can tell that the only thing that asking mostly hard interview questions does is reducing your candidate pool to 0.

Even with mostly moderately hard questions your candidate pool at the end of the funnel is probably going to be around 5% to 10% as compared to the start of the funnel. Plus after a certain level of question difficulty as an employer you're probably optimizing for the wrong skillset.

Perhaps for super competitive positions, e.g. for algorithmic trading at reputable Wall Street hedge funds, there's a place for killer interview questions but it's definitely not the bread and butter.

Re:How does ‘class-passing’ actually work? by bcoates on Thursday February 01, 2018 @04:36PM (#16286150)
With the exception of the github profile, that's not my experience at all -- if anything, lots of hiring managers want to ape that sort of experience even if they can't really assess it because the alternative is something like this: https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/a-job

Spending 2 years learning how to interview when you could have been spending 1.96 years getting passably good at something and 2 weeks on interviewing is madness, though.

Re:How does ‘class-passing’ actually work? by simonh on Thursday February 01, 2018 @03:28PM (#16285559)
The fact that so many tech professionals don’t have GitHub and Stack Overflow profiles, personal projects, etc is exactly why having those things helps you stand out. It’s definitely helped me, hugely, aside from just plain increasing my self confidence. I’m no web startup Silicon Valley brogrammer either, 50 something application support specialist in London.
Re:How does ‘class-passing’ actually work? by emodendroket on Thursday February 01, 2018 @03:45PM (#16285699)
I've never experienced anyone caring even the least bit about my GitHub and StackOverflow profiles.
Re:How does ‘class-passing’ actually work? by aidenn0 on Thursday February 01, 2018 @03:49PM (#16285738)
Every single interview I've been to has had at least one of those. None of them has had more than half though.
Re:How does ‘class-passing’ actually work? by tlb on Thursday February 01, 2018 @03:47PM (#16285709)
If people call you brutally blunt, you might be able to improve your career and relationships with some simple changes to the way you say things. Nonviolent Communication by Marshall Rosenberg is a great place to start. It's full of examples of people saying something that made other people angry and upset, then showing how they could say the same thing in a different way so that people listened and understood and often gave the person what they needed. Not by wrapping it in bullshit, but by connecting the request to relatable human needs.
Re:How does ‘class-passing’ actually work? by troupe on Thursday February 01, 2018 @03:07PM (#16285382)
> A huge different that's obvious to me is the language we use.

Meaning that people making $10 per hours use more or less coarse language than people making $50 per hour?

Re:How does ‘class-passing’ actually work? by dizzystar on Thursday February 01, 2018 @03:21PM (#16285499)
Not really. The language in lower class is coarse, but it's also very blunt. For example, I was once told that it must be irritating to know myself by some working class, or I've been insulted by a food order. This is how they talk among each other. Heavy insults and expressing your opinion is unambiguous.

In upper class, the language probably has more "fucks per minute," but there is a fluid dance that moves between honesty and somewhere else. Any compliment like "a great conversation" or "I like your clothes" is on a continuum rather than a discrete statement.

That's a simple example, but everything sort of falls along these lines, and it's exhausting to parse it all.

Re:How does ‘class-passing’ actually work? by dsfyu404ed on Thursday February 01, 2018 @02:45PM (#16285169)
>his article resonates with me on many levels. I went from below $10/hr

This experience isn't exactly uncommon.

Everyone who had a job during college in a state with a single digit minimum wage then got an entry level tech job in a high CoL area did this.

That said, most people who do that don't suddenly find themselves among people who significantly higher up the social ladder when they do that which I think is what you were getting at.

Re:How does ‘class-passing’ actually work? by dizzystar on Thursday February 01, 2018 @02:52PM (#16285236)
Yeah, that's what I mean. If your parents were already middle class, you aren't strictly broke earning that in the same sense as you parents were on welfare and you never stepped foot on a college campus.
Re:How does ‘class-passing’ actually work? by dsfyu404ed on Thursday February 01, 2018 @03:52PM (#16285775)
The college kids who have jobs so they have more pocket money to spend on lifestyle stuff (i.e. beer) is exactly who I'm talking about when I say "most people who do that don't suddenly find themselves among people who significantly higher up the social ladder"

The college kids with work-study jobs in the kitchen, get financial aid, furnish their living spaces with office furniture the school discarded, and whatnot are the ones who move into a different social class when they enter the workforce.

I think we're agreeing here.

Re:How does ‘class-passing’ actually work? by invalidOrTaken on Thursday February 01, 2018 @02:41PM (#16285128)
Bullshit is highly contextual. Often its valudity is dependent on other factors, which are assumed, usually unknowingly, by the author/speaker.

If your assumptions/situation match those of the author/speaker---it will be good advice. If they don't---bullshit.

Re:How does ‘class-passing’ actually work? by _alias on Thursday February 01, 2018 @02:13PM (#16284815)
Do you have a good heuristic for bullshit detection? Anything to look out for?
Re:How does ‘class-passing’ actually work? by enord on Thursday February 01, 2018 @02:46PM (#16285180)
Is it alluring? Does it fit within some nice narrative? Can it be explained inside a one-page newspaper article? Then it has enough going for it that it doesn't necessairly need to be true in order to propagate.
Re:How does ‘class-passing’ actually work? by godelski on Thursday February 01, 2018 @04:39PM (#16286174)
> Is it alluring?

This CANNOT be over stated. If it matches your own view you have to be even more wary of it than if it doesn't match your own view. If it fits in your own narrative then you want it to be true. If it doesn't fit then you don't want it to be true.

Always consider your own bias. Does it provoke a strong emotion in you?

Re:How does ‘class-passing’ actually work? by cryoshon on Thursday February 01, 2018 @03:44PM (#16285684)
"whose goals get accomplished by believing this claim" is the biggest question to get into a habit of asking yourself. make it unconscious. make it follow every line of written text and every sentence you hear.

you will find that the answer is never "mine" when reading something you didn't write, but it might sometimes be "theirs, and mine" if you are reading something that is not bullshit.

advanced techniques include making finer distinctions in your answer to the question. but the question is all you really need.

then there's what i call the "10 year old" rule of thumb.

if a 10 year old of average cleverness wanted to manipulate their parents into an action by repeating the claims that you read, would their rhetoric be similar to the claims that you suspect are bullshit?

remember, just like adults, 10 year olds add a lot of noise to their manipulative signals but they aren't very good at subterfuge because they can't disguise their intent despite adding noise. this thought experiment is for getting you to read between the lines rather than reading the lines literally and accepting them as truth-- as the ten year old desperately wants you to do so that their trick is a success.

this thought experiment is enough to resolve almost every tough call of "is it bullshit or not" when other methods fail. don't make this one into a habit, keep it handy for conscious mulling over of tough cases of ambiguous intentions. and don't share it, some 10 year olds are smart enough to know this trick already and they might get offended.

Re:How does ‘class-passing’ actually work? by praptak on Thursday February 01, 2018 @02:33PM (#16285063)
Enumerating badness and blacklisting it is a bad approach in security. I believe that this applies to detecting bullshit. It comes in many forms, including those that make you believe you are cutting through bullshit.

Better form your own set of core non-bullshit beliefs and work from that.

Re:How does ‘class-passing’ actually work? by cabalamat on Thursday February 01, 2018 @03:42PM (#16285666)
Could the person saying something have a motive for lying?
Re:How does ‘class-passing’ actually work? by wmeredith on Thursday February 01, 2018 @02:07PM (#16284748)
> I often wonder why no one's mother didn't fill the these people's mouth with dawn liquid soap and slap the child silly, but then I realize that honesty wasn't a life or death situation for them.

What? This is just child abuse. Please expand on what circumstances in which this considered OK?

Re:How does ‘class-passing’ actually work? by montecarl on Thursday February 01, 2018 @02:13PM (#16284829)
While this used to be a not uncommon form of punishment, it is now typically used as an empty threat ("someone ought to wash your mouth out with soap") or to criticize someone's foul mouth.
Re:How does ‘class-passing’ actually work? by lev99 on Thursday February 01, 2018 @02:13PM (#16284816)
In my mind child abuse is hurting a child for selfish reasons and discipline is punishment to cause behavioral changes. Some cultures allow for different severity of punishments. However the intent of the parent is very important when labeling child abuse.
Re:How does ‘class-passing’ actually work? by dragonwriter on Thursday February 01, 2018 @02:20PM (#16284901)
Intent is important, but if there is intent to inflict pain, either as a means or an ends, it is abuse.

Now, it's true that there are further meaningful intent-based distinctions you can make within the broad category of abuse, but that's somewhat beside the point.

Re:How does ‘class-passing’ actually work? by zeveb on Thursday February 01, 2018 @03:47PM (#16285715)
> if there is intent to inflict pain, either as a means or an ends, it is abuse.

That doesn't sound correct to me. If a little get (well below the age of reason) reaches for the pretty red glowing burner atop the stove, you slap away his hand because the small pain of getting his hand slapped will serve to make a second attempt less likely, and the small pain is far less severe and more transient than the great and lasting pain of a nasty burn.

Enjoying inflicting pain is definitely abuse, but inflicting it to prevent worse pain and suffering is IMHO not.

Re:How does ‘class-passing’ actually work? by DrScump on Thursday February 01, 2018 @11:07PM (#16288330)
There was a genuine tragedy[0] just over a month ago in NYC from such an unchecked child who "had a history of playing with the burners and turning them on." The family of the firestarter all escaped but placed others at heightened risk of death by leaving their doors open as they fled.

[0] https://www.mercurynews.com/2017/12/29/new-york-city-mayor-1...

Re:How does ‘class-passing’ actually work? by dragonwriter on Thursday February 01, 2018 @03:54PM (#16285793)
> . If a little get (well below the age of reason) reaches for the pretty red glowing burner atop the stove, you slap away his hand because the small pain of getting his hand slapped will serve to make a second attempt less likely

No, you don't; if they are well below the age of reason, they are well below the age at which they will connect the hit with the reason for it.

That's why you don't let kids that young around a stove in the first place, and if they do get loose around one, you restrain and remove them. This may involve incidental pain, but not intentional, instrumental pain.

Re:How does ‘class-passing’ actually work? by randyrand on Thursday February 01, 2018 @05:27PM (#16286537)
You don't need reason in order to stop doing things that hurt you. Even simple animals learn to avoid painful things.
Re:How does ‘class-passing’ actually work? by brazzledazzle on Thursday February 01, 2018 @05:30PM (#16286568)
While there are certainly abusers out there that relish it, (likely in most of the worst cases) I think you'll find that many who commit undeniable abuse don't do it for any sort of joy. They would describe their motivations as being good or an unfortunate necessity–sometimes even altruistic. Abuse is a complicated thing and many who mete it out were, or are, themselves victims of abuse.

Not trying to detract from your overall point, just thought it was worth noting.

Re:How does ‘class-passing’ actually work? by dizzystar on Thursday February 01, 2018 @02:23PM (#16284937)
Bullshit for some people is the same as lying, where lying is binary and not shaded. Lying is a great way to end up on the evening news.