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Re:Smear campaign against Wikileaks begins by RyanGWU82 on Saturday August 21, 2010 @07:12AM (#1622586)
Smear campaign? Only according to the accused rapist.

Scenario 1: Two Swedish women really are pressing charges against Mr. Assange.

Scenario 2: The U.S. Pentagon is so upset by Wikileaks that they've convinced a Swedish prosecutor to file baseless rape charges, without actual victims, against the Wikileaks spokesman.

The simplest explanation is the most likely.

Re:Smear campaign against Wikileaks begins by jacquesm on Saturday August 21, 2010 @07:26AM (#1622607)
Scenario 1a, two Swedish women get a bunch of cash in return for filing a bogus charge of rape (edit: which is just as hard to prove as it is to disprove, causing a lot of smoke absent any fire at a time when wikileaks needs to be seen as 'clean' and on the moral high ground).

It's not as if governments haven't been doing shit like this for ages.

Indeed, the simplest explanation is the most likely.

Until this hit the wires I figured Assange is just a bit too paranoid, this charge is so over the top that I'm no longer convinced he's paranoid but that he was right all along.

After all, not one but two rape cases out of the blue reported by two women that know each other just when wikileaks is about to release a bunch of incriminating material after refusing to budge under pressure?

It's technically possible, but that's the only thing this charge has going for it at this point in time, evidence is what it is all about.

Re:Smear campaign against Wikileaks begins by shrikant on Saturday August 21, 2010 @07:40AM (#1622628)
Indeed. I was always curious - if the RIAA/MPAA could flex international muscle to get ThePirateBay raided, why not the Pentagon/CIA?
Re:Smear campaign against Wikileaks begins by jarin on Saturday August 21, 2010 @07:49AM (#1622645)
I'm more scared of the RIAA than I am of the CIA.
Re:Smear campaign against Wikileaks begins by shrikant on Saturday August 21, 2010 @08:11AM (#1622679)
Well yeah, the chances of you having done something that would piss off the RIAA are way more than having done something that the CIA would frown at :)
Re:Smear campaign against Wikileaks begins by m_eiman on Saturday August 21, 2010 @07:34AM (#1622619)
Scenario 1.1: Two women file false reports of one rape and one sexual harassment; possibly on behalf of the US government (or someone else who doesn't like Wikileaks)

Scenario 1.2: Someone who knows his every move is being watched (by the media, if nothing else) rapes one woman and sexually harasses another one in under two weeks.

The simplest explanation is often the correct one, but that doesn't mean we should restrict ourselves to just two possible explanations.

Also your second scenario doesn't match the currently known facts: the women who filed the reports aren't made up, regardless of whether the charges are.

Re:Smear campaign against Wikileaks begins by mseebach on Saturday August 21, 2010 @08:05AM (#1622667)
Rapes are seldom the outcome of a rational decision.

Scenario 1.3: Assange parties with two women, gets slightly too fresh with them and the ensuing sex wasn't completely as agreed on.

Scenario 1.4: Assange parties with two women and the morning after, they decide he's a douchebag and gets worked up that he took advantage of them and what happened was really, actually rape.

Re:Smear campaign against Wikileaks begins by waterlesscloud on Saturday August 21, 2010 @08:27AM (#1622710)
Your scenarios also raise the possibility that judgement-inhibiting substances such as alcohol may have been involved in his decision making at the time.
Re:Smear campaign against Wikileaks begins by Tautologistics on Saturday August 21, 2010 @07:48AM (#1622643)
Scenario 3: Assange coordinated with these two women to file charges in order to convince people that he really is under attack by various governments and garners more support for his cause and efforts.

I do not necessarily believe this scenario but since where throwing possibilities out there.

Re:Smear campaign against Wikileaks begins by cabalamat on Saturday August 21, 2010 @07:41AM (#1622631)
I disagree. What are the probabilities that:

(1) an average man is accused of rape (say in a year)

(2) a person who a government would very much like to bring down is the subject of made-up allegations

Regarding (1), i don't have figures for Sweden but in the UK there are c. 14k reported rapes a year versus 25M adult males, so P = 14k/25M = 0.00056

Regarding (2), I don't have figures but suggest off the top of my head that 0.01 is reasonable.

0.00056/(0.00056+0.01) = 0.053

So Bayes' theorem suggests a roughly 5% probability that the accusations are real and 95% that they are concocted by the US or some other government.

Re:Smear campaign against Wikileaks begins by cabalamat on Saturday August 21, 2010 @07:43AM (#1622634)
Oops my analysis was wrong -- there are two rape cases.

Probability of two unrelated rape cases coming to light just at a time convenient for the US authorities -- about as likely as me getting pocket aces in every hand during a poker evening.

Re:Smear campaign against Wikileaks begins by tome on Saturday August 21, 2010 @07:56AM (#1622656)
The probabilities of a man committing each of two individual rapes are not independent. This is the worst statistical fallacy you can commit. Please see the following for further tragic details:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roy_Meadow#Cot_death_trial_cont...

Re:Smear campaign against Wikileaks begins by cabalamat on Sunday August 22, 2010 @11:15AM (#1624718)
> The probabilities of a man committing each of two individual rapes are not independent.

Indeed not, and I never said they were. Indeed if a rapist rapes one woman, then he's more likely to do it again than a man who has never raped.

My point was that it's less likely that a man will be accused of two unrelated rapes at the same time, than just be accused of one rape.

Re:Smear campaign against Wikileaks begins by tomjen3 on Saturday August 21, 2010 @07:27AM (#1622610)
The simplest explanation is this: the US paid two Swedish women to accuse Mr. Assange of rape.

This isn't unusual - most rape accusations are false, since there are a lot of sociopaths out there (who have no shame), and the real victims are too ashamed to step forward.

Re:Smear campaign against Wikileaks begins by jacquesm on Saturday August 21, 2010 @07:37AM (#1622624)
> most rape accusations are false

That does a disservice to the very large number of rape victims out there.

Some rape accusations are false, but to claim the majority of them is false would require a citation I think.

For instance:

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/166281.php

reports that most of the 'good' (as in done in a scientific setting) studies report 8 to 10% of rape accusations are false.

See also:

http://www.slate.com/id/2231012/

Re:Smear campaign against Wikileaks begins by yummyfajitas on Saturday August 21, 2010 @09:35AM (#1622811)
That does a disservice to the very large number of rape victims out there.

You are attempting to shut down discussion by asking for sympathy for rape victims. It is logically a non-sequitur and is just an appeal to emotion.

According to the wikipedia summary of the studies, 8% of accusations where the accuser cooperates result in the police concluding they were false.

These numbers explicitly exclude cases where the charges are dropped or where the accuser does not cooperate with the police. Since false accusers are likely to do both those things (to avoid being revealed as a liar), the scenario being studied excludes many false accusations. Additionally, there are likely to be false accusations where the police are unable to determine whether they are false.

8% is almost certainly a lower bound.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_accusation_of_rape

Re:Smear campaign against Wikileaks begins by jacquesm on Saturday August 21, 2010 @11:01AM (#1622962)
Most = > 50%.

> You are attempting to shut down discussion by asking for sympathy for rape victims.

No, I merely pointed out that there are plenty of rape cases that are real and that pretending that the majority of rape cases are faked is not exactly realistic.

Rape is a tough thing to confront, even if it is real and there are a very large number of rape cases that are never even brought to the stage of accusation.

True rape cases also have many instances where charges are dropped or where the accuser will not cooperate with the police because it is simply too painful.

Re:Smear campaign against Wikileaks begins by yummyfajitas on Saturday August 21, 2010 @12:06PM (#1623091)
I'm not disputing that "most" is unproven. I'm just pointing out your appeal to emotion.

At least 1 in 10 rape accusers are liars. Pointing out this fact does not do a disservice to actual rape victims. It simply gives us a prior for determining whether these women are actually rape victims.

(I.e., before knowing any facts about this case, we can conclude that a rape accuser is 92% likely to deserve sympathy and 8% likely to deserve jail time.)

Re:Smear campaign against Wikileaks begins by m_eiman on Saturday August 21, 2010 @07:49AM (#1622644)
> most rape accusations are false

That does a disservice to the very large number of rape victims out there.

Some rape accusations are false, but to claim the majority of them is false would require a citation I think.

Indeed. I've often heard that claim from people who don't (or don't want to) believe that in most cases of rape the victim knows the perpetrator. According to statistics in Sweden, only one third of rapes are performed by someone unknown to the victim[1].

There was a case like this on TV here recently, where a young boy who has been found guilty of rape (twice!) gets a lot of sympathy from his community while the victims are trash-talked along the lines of "she actually wanted it and changed her mind later"[2].

1: (swedish pdf) http://www.bra.se/extra/measurepoint/?module_instance=4&...

2: (more swedish) http://www.google.se/search?q=uppdrag+granskning+v%C3%A5ldt%...

[edit, added]

Oh, I also forgot one very interesting question: why would a woman falsely accuse someone of rape? In the case of a custody battle I can see the logic, but what would be the gain of accusing an acquaintance (who account for a third of reported rapes)? If it's a case of "did something she later regrets", wouldn't it be a lot easier to just deny that it ever happened?

Re:Smear campaign against Wikileaks begins by varjag on Saturday August 21, 2010 @11:59AM (#1623079)
She might hate that someone's guts, or just find it convenient for some other reason: http://www.aolnews.com/story/biurny-peguero-recants-rape-cha...

Not that it happens often, but sometimes it really does.

Re:Smear campaign against Wikileaks begins by tome on Saturday August 21, 2010 @08:23AM (#1622701)
If it's a case of "did something she later regrets", wouldn't it be a lot easier to just deny that it ever happened?

I think it's more likely to be a case of denying to herself that she wanted it in the first place.

Re:Smear campaign against Wikileaks begins by jarin on Saturday August 21, 2010 @07:51AM (#1622649)
What percentage of rape accusations against public figures are false?
Re:Smear campaign against Wikileaks begins by tomjen3 on Saturday August 21, 2010 @07:49AM (#1622646)
I was thinking more of the number of who claimed rape against a specific person - as opposed to rape in general.

And that number is way, way more than 10% percent.

But that wasn't clear from my comment.

Re:Smear campaign against Wikileaks begins by mseebach on Saturday August 21, 2010 @08:11AM (#1622678)
How is the explanation that the US did not pay said women not simpler? Or even that an organisation much smaller than the US government did it, if money actually changed hands? Say, a former executive of one of the financial institutions that Assange bothered a few years ago. It's not like Assange don't have enemies outside the US government.
Re:Smear campaign against Wikileaks begins by bruceboughton on Saturday August 21, 2010 @08:08AM (#1622672)
Woah! Who died and made you omniscient? At most, you could state than most rape charges are unproved. And that doesn't prove much.
Re:Smear campaign against Wikileaks begins by noverloop on Saturday August 21, 2010 @07:32AM (#1622617)
Scenario 2 should be 'The pentagon payed two women to file a credible suit based on their most accurate Intel about his whereabouts.'