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Re:Thousands of Turks accused of using Bylock app despite ne... by Rjevski on Monday January 22, 2018 @08:19AM (#16204105)
FTFY: a shitty government is putting people in jail.

Even if we ignore the horrible government and bullshit reasons why they're considering installing an encrypted chat app a "crime", they should at least use proper evidence for the convictions, like a dump of the phone's memory with the chat app installed on it, and not a simple DNS lookup/HTTP request to the chat app's domain.

Re:Thousands of Turks accused of using Bylock app despite ne... by mseebach on Monday January 22, 2018 @08:42AM (#16204228)
The article's tacit acknowledgment of the legitimacy of arresting people for having had the app installed at all is pretty off-colour as well.
Re:Thousands of Turks accused of using Bylock app despite ne... by Waterluvian on Monday January 22, 2018 @09:38AM (#16204621)
I'm not completely disagreeing with you, but I often see reporting attempt to speak about something in the context from which it originates. An opinion piece can come later about how unbelievable it is that they do this to begin with.
Re:Thousands of Turks accused of using Bylock app despite ne... by candiodari on Monday January 22, 2018 @10:26AM (#16205014)
Many things about Turkey are incredulous. Turkey used to be a bastion of secularism, in fact the only bastion of secularism among muslims (and it still is, at least in terms of mindshare).

And yet turkey now has a president ... that obviously gained the better part of his power through a false-flag attack (the "coup d'etat" that "somehow" managed to fail to capture even a single government official or building).

And you just can't believe how bad it gets ... They're arresting everyone who supposedly had anything (right down to IP addresses) to do with, oh, lots of things. Gulenists, Kurds, the Press, LGBT, ...

And then people in the US reply "but that's thousands, no, tens of thousands of people".

Yes. Yes it is [1].

And you just can't believe how bad this guy is:

(about the Armenian genocide) "a muslim cannot commit genocide"

(about women) "Our religion [Islam] has defined a position for women [in society]: motherhood. You cannot explain this to feminists because they don't accept the concept of motherhood."

He, and his family, personally organised oil sales on behalf of islamic state, including to the US

"We will rip out the roots of the Twitter service"

He orchestrated physical attacks against newspapers.

The worst of it is, truth be told he has flip-flopped on just about every issue, including the ones mentioned right above here, and doesn't seem all that coherent at all. But unscrupulous is a word that just falls short : the guy is accused to have organised, in some cases systematic, physical attacks against Turks in Germany, the US and elsewhere for being perceived as being against him.

I can't imagine how threatened Turks must feel.

[1] http://edition.cnn.com/2017/04/14/europe/turkey-failed-coup-...

Re:Thousands of Turks accused of using Bylock app despite ne... by smnscu on Monday January 22, 2018 @01:22PM (#16206573)
I love how Americans immediately forgot the time when Erdogan's goons beat the shit out of their own people with the tacit and satisfied approval of the orange shitstain.

http://dailycaller.com/2017/09/22/erdogans-goons-beat-up-som...

Re:Thousands of Turks accused of using Bylock app despite ne... by dang on Monday January 22, 2018 @02:50PM (#16207309)
Please do not post political flamebait to Hacker News. From the site guidelines: "Comments should get more civil and substantive, not less, as a topic gets more divisive."

When the topic itself is already politicized, this of course is a matter of degree. But however we draw the line, a comment like yours here is well on the wrong side of it.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re:Thousands of Turks accused of using Bylock app despite ne... by macawfish on Monday January 22, 2018 @01:22PM (#16206568)
Erdogan is an incredibly dangerous leader. Did you see recently how he had his secret service openly and brazenly beating up peaceful protestors at events in Washington DC?

And he recently got the Turkish constitution changed in his favor, openly citing Adolf Hitler's Germany as an example of an effective presidential government.

I recommend doing some reading to understand the situation in Turkey

Re:Thousands of Turks accused of using Bylock app despite ne... by namelost on Monday January 22, 2018 @09:35AM (#16204596)
If you hadn't pointed it out I wouldn't even have noticed. The CBC is the last place you expect to find Turkish propaganda.
Re:Thousands of Turks accused of using Bylock app despite ne... by mcguire on Monday January 22, 2018 @09:59AM (#16204771)
Failure to do so could put CBC personnel in Turkey in danger.
Re:Thousands of Turks accused of using Bylock app despite ne... by AdrianB1 on Monday January 22, 2018 @02:13PM (#16207023)
So writing incomplete or misleading news is the solution?
Re:Thousands of Turks accused of using Bylock app despite ne... by zamazingo on Monday January 22, 2018 @10:28AM (#16205031)
I am guessing the author would get arrested without that tacit acknowledgement.

> ... is a CBC News correspondent based in Istanbul.

Re:Thousands of Turks accused of using Bylock app despite ne... by Quarrelsome on Monday January 22, 2018 @09:28AM (#16204537)
one problem at a time.
Re:Thousands of Turks accused of using Bylock app despite ne... by philipov on Monday January 22, 2018 @09:32AM (#16204572)
Yes, precisely. And the first problem can be eliminating tacit acknowledgement of the legitimacy of oppressive governments.
Re:Thousands of Turks accused of using Bylock app despite ne... by Quarrelsome on Monday January 22, 2018 @11:12AM (#16205458)
No need to bring all of your moral judgement into everything. Would you treat a wounded criminal or would their criminality effect your ability to treat them?

One problem at a time.

Re:Thousands of Turks accused of using Bylock app despite ne... by nasredin on Monday January 22, 2018 @01:28PM (#16206625)
I don't follow your analogy.

IMHO, a better one:

Your friend (used loosely in this case) is doing criminal acts. Would you tell him to stop doing criminal acts while you treat him?

---

Sometimes journalist take this "ALLWAYS two sides to every story" and "each side is equal" crap too far.

See the success of Wolf's book on Trump.

Re:Thousands of Turks accused of using Bylock app despite ne... by Quarrelsome on Monday January 22, 2018 @02:38PM (#16207223)
there are two problems here:

1. Turkey's government is brutally suppressing opposition

2. The means Turkey is using to identify its opposition is flawed.

You don't have to talk 1. to talk 2.

Case in point is that you can legally talk 2. in Turkey but if you talk 1. you get fucked. If you try to fight 2. you help a bunch of people if you try to fight both 1. and 2. at the same time the chance of you solving 2. is diminished because Turkey's government will be suspicious that it is propaganda against them because you included 1.

Thus: one problem at a time.

Also remember that your attitude leads to shit like Iraq. Its perfectly "legitimate" for a government to be autocratic. Russia is a government, Iran is a government, China is a government. They wield the power, is that not legitimate? You seem to be suggesting that only "legitimate" governments are democracies and that sort of attitude leads us back to Iraq where we go on a liberation war and heroically give people a democracy that they didn't fight for themselves. Reality is messy and complicated and "nice" ideas like making everyone have the good government are well intentioned but naive.

I will celebrate the day Turkey gets its democracy back but it has to do that itself and its not the problem of anyone who isn't Turkish as their "help" may well hinder.

Re:Thousands of Turks accused of using Bylock app despite ne... by danso on Monday January 22, 2018 @08:33AM (#16204180)
Exactly this. People are apparently being jailed for having accessed or simply pinged a forbidden IP/server -- which seemingly could be caused by receiving an email with a hidden img tag, or visiting a website with a hidden iframe.
Re:Thousands of Turks accused of using Bylock app despite ne... by boosting6889 on Monday January 22, 2018 @10:25AM (#16205009)
It happens in the US too. Any site could have 1x1 iframes loaded with nude pictures of people under 18. If your IP happens to be caught up in their investigation, your computers will get seized, they’ll see you accessed the forbidden pages, and you’re basically done for, especially if you can’t afford a good attorney. Nobody is giving an accused pedophile the benefit of the doubt.
Re:Thousands of Turks accused of using Bylock app despite ne... by danso on Monday January 22, 2018 @11:03AM (#16205378)
I'd agree that the U.S. law enforcement probably takes a "better safe than sorry" approach to suspicions involving child porn and terrorism, but I think there's a big difference between what's happened in the U.S. vs what appears to happen in Turkey.

Turkey's situation, as described by the OP, is so interesting because it describes the scenario you envision -- in which a government really did go for a sweeping "take no prisoners" approach, in the dumbest way possible using Internet access data.

But FBI sweeps of child porn suspects seem to be very targeted -- e.g. tracing IPs of people who participate in known illegal sites or honeypots: https://www.wired.com/2014/08/operation-torpedo/

Having visited bad sites/URLs/IPs/searches may be used as circumstantial evidence. But Turkey seems to have used the pinging of an IP as the primary way of both finding suspects and the primary evidence for jailing people. I can't think of many similar situations like that in U.S. law. In fact, with child porn, you see courts making the distinction between seeing child porn (i.e. inadverdently) and intentionally seeking it out:

https://www.yahoo.com/news/blogs/sideshow/viewing-child-porn...

https://www.olemiss.edu/depts/ncjrl/pdf/cp%20But%20Your%20Ho...

Re:Thousands of Turks accused of using Bylock app despite ne... by t-away9912 on Monday January 22, 2018 @09:05AM (#16204380)
It's getting worse by the day. They arrested people for wearing a t-shirt. They just arrested people for tweeting against the war (recent Turkish incursion to Syria).
Re:Thousands of Turks accused of using Bylock app despite ne... by Pxtl on Monday January 22, 2018 @12:48PM (#16206298)
The absence of any condemning of the policy itself in the article is super conspicuous. I assume the commenter below guessing it's for the protection of their correspondent is correct.

Still, it's too bad they couldn't put a lampshade on it - "we at the CBC are not in a position to comment on the merits and flaws of this policy". But even that could draw ire, I guess.

Re:Thousands of Turks accused of using Bylock app despite ne... by mrtksn on Monday January 22, 2018 @10:23AM (#16204989)
That's misrepresentation of the situation, the crime is not installing an app(nobody is sentenced for the crime of using an app) but being a member of an organisation that is deemed illegal and the app is considered evidence for membership as it was members exclusive app. Think of it as if being an Uber driver was illegal, then having the drivers app can constitute as a good reason for suspicion of you being Uber driver and you might be held until you receive a sentence or cleared from wrongdoing.

The problem here was that the Turkish authorities were "a bit too liberal" on what constitute of using the App in question, that is, they mistakenly assumed that making HTTP request to the App's server is a good indicator of being a user.

Unfortunately this is the way that the Turkish government operates since many years, they first lock you in and you fight back for years until you prove your innocence. What's even worse is that you can't really get good compensation for it, you just suck it up and move on.

Re:Thousands of Turks accused of using Bylock app despite ne... by amckinlay on Monday January 22, 2018 @10:26AM (#16205012)
And this is a government we're going to rescue if they're ever under attack.
Re:Thousands of Turks accused of using Bylock app despite ne... by yorby on Monday January 22, 2018 @08:50AM (#16204275)
I thought that the American government had the worst ratio of free citizens/incarcerated citizens ...
Re:Thousands of Turks accused of using Bylock app despite ne... by w0m on Monday January 22, 2018 @08:59AM (#16204333)
No one mentioned ratio, this is about 'injustice/abuse of tech' not volume. For comparison, even with the BS behavior in OP, Turkey is about 285/100,000 incarceration rate. The US of A is at 666/110,000, over double.
Re:Thousands of Turks accused of using Bylock app despite ne... by yorby on Monday January 22, 2018 @11:19AM (#16205513)
what are you saying? USA is worst?
Re:Thousands of Turks accused of using Bylock app despite ne... by Aaron1011 on Monday January 22, 2018 @08:56AM (#16204319)
A government can imprison people for horrible reasons, but still not have the worst radio.
Re:Thousands of Turks accused of using Bylock app despite ne... by Y_Y on Monday January 22, 2018 @09:20AM (#16204472)
Re:Thousands of Turks accused of using Bylock app despite ne... by theBobBob on Monday January 22, 2018 @09:45AM (#16204672)
Another part that effects the current prison population is the length of sentences. One country might imprison less people but for much longer so the total population at one time might be very high.
Re:Thousands of Turks accused of using Bylock app despite ne... by Retric on Monday January 22, 2018 @09:02AM (#16204355)
I think it's a sign of horrible reasons. Dig into specifics and the US does unjustly keep people in prison on a regular basis.

We have huge issues from generations of politics over substance. It's only obvious that things are getting worse when you look at statistics because nobody has unbiased understanding of the entire system.

Re:Thousands of Turks accused of using Bylock app despite ne... by yorby on Monday January 22, 2018 @11:20AM (#16205529)
if you imprison 1 person for no reason at all, that would be pretty horrible... but if you imprison thousands for barely nothing, that is ok?
Re:Thousands of Turks accused of using Bylock app despite ne... by Banthum on Monday January 22, 2018 @09:24AM (#16204504)
America has a high ratio.

To call it 'worst' is a value judgment and not an objective statement, any more than saying the abortion or divorce rate is better or worse.

Re:Thousands of Turks accused of using Bylock app despite ne... by simonh on Monday January 22, 2018 @09:43AM (#16204654)
Failed attempt at a ‘technical’ correction.

I think it’s reasonable to say that the highest incarceration rate is the worst rate, regardless of the reasons. Whether it’s due to an excessively harsh system, high rates of damaging criminality, whatever it is, they’re all bad whatever they are. Surely the ideal number of wrongly convicted people, and the ideal number of legitimately convicted people, and the ideal number of criminals that have escaped justice are all as low as possible?

Similarly for abortion and divorce. Even people who believe abortion should be an option would prefer there to be no need for it. Every one of them is a tragedy no matter which side of the debate you’re on. Same for Divorce.

Re:Thousands of Turks accused of using Bylock app despite ne... by cgriswald on Monday January 22, 2018 @10:58AM (#16205323)
I don't think I agree, and I think your examples do not support your point.

In the case of the number of legitimately convicted people, you seem to think zero is the ideal. In a sense, I think we can probably all agree. But what we really want is the number of people committing crimes to be zero. If it is not zero, then surely the ideal number of people legitimately convicted is equal to the number of people who have committed crimes. If it is not, then we are saying we want people who have committed crimes to walk free. So in this sense, "worst" is, in fact, a judgment.

But "everyone" agreeing doesn't even mean something isn't a judgment. There is no objective "worst". And in the case of divorce, you're wrong. Divorce has been hugely beneficial for women's equality, and my own personal divorce was definitely not a tragedy.

Re:Thousands of Turks accused of using Bylock app despite ne... by wu-ikkyu on Monday January 22, 2018 @10:26AM (#16205011)
>To call it 'worst' is a value judgment and not an objective statement

Why does that matter here?

The very laws which a large % of them broke (drug laws) are not based on objective statements.

Re:Thousands of Turks accused of using Bylock app despite ne... by djrogers on Monday January 22, 2018 @11:30AM (#16205602)
>The very laws which a large % of them broke (drug laws)

Common misconception, but that's not actually the case - best numbers show about 15% of prisoners are in with drug charges.

[1] https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/releasing-drug-offender...

Re:Thousands of Turks accused of using Bylock app despite ne... by wu-ikkyu on Monday January 22, 2018 @11:51AM (#16205805)
>best numbers show about 15% of prisoners are in with drug charges.

That's incorrect. The source says ~16% had, as their most serious offence, a drug charge.

So in reality more than 16% are serving time for drug crimes. It seems a bit disingenuous that the statistic is posed like that, especially when considering the cyclical nature of incarceration,"3 strikes" laws, and the cascading violence caused by drug laws.

Re:Thousands of Turks accused of using Bylock app despite ne... by tzahola on Monday January 22, 2018 @08:23AM (#16204128)
No, it was a single line of code. We should ban codes like this.
Re:Thousands of Turks accused of using Bylock app despite ne... by mseebach on Monday January 22, 2018 @08:43AM (#16204238)
Oh, I guarantee you that the Turkish government agrees wholeheartedly and would very much like to speak with the perpetrators.
Re:Thousands of Turks accused of using Bylock app despite ne... by simonh on Monday January 22, 2018 @09:44AM (#16204666)
The people who wrote the code, whatever else they may or not be guilty of and whether or not the code should be illegal or not, didn’t put anyone in jail.
Re:Thousands of Turks accused of using Bylock app despite ne... by codewithcheese on Monday January 22, 2018 @08:28AM (#16204150)
Do you want to throw people in jail if they use code that is banned too?