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Re:Bill and Melinda Gates Are Paying Off Nigeria's $76M Debt... by simplemath__ on Monday January 15, 2018 @06:29PM (#16154414)
To all the commenters too busy being aghast at giving money to a government to read the article:

>Nigeria’s debt to Japan is the result of Overseas Development Assistance (ODA) provided by the Japanese government in 2014 for increased polio eradication. efforts.

>The country has made great strides in its efforts to eliminate the disease thanks to this funding.

>Nigeria did not record a wild case of polio from July 2014 to August 2016, when two cases were reported.

Presumably, the Gates Foundation wants to encourage state partnerships from nations like Japan in the service of eradicating solved diseases, regardless of a recipient nation's ability or willingness to settle incurred debts.

Money well spent.

Re:Bill and Melinda Gates Are Paying Off Nigeria's $76M Debt... by diego_moita on Monday January 15, 2018 @06:51PM (#16154563)
This is the correct perspective. It seems that, Reddit style, many people here comment just the titles, don't read the articles.

Polio is on the way to complete eradication all over the world. AFAIK the only place where it remains endemic is Baluchistan in Pakistan where the warlords are suspicious of vaccination agents.

Victory on polio is a fantastic story that doesn't get the attention it deserves.

Re:Bill and Melinda Gates Are Paying Off Nigeria's $76M Debt... by Recursing on Monday January 15, 2018 @07:26PM (#16154752)
> AFAIK the only place where it remains endemic is Baluchistan in Pakistan

In 2017 there have been 13 wild cases in Afghanistan, 8 in Pakistan and it's still considered endemic in Nigeria (last known case in August 2016)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poliomyelitis_eradication#2017

Re:Bill and Melinda Gates Are Paying Off Nigeria's $76M Debt... by oculusthrift on Monday January 15, 2018 @07:17PM (#16154699)
well last time they claimed to be giving vaccines in pakistan it was to collect genetic information against a us target.
Re:Bill and Melinda Gates Are Paying Off Nigeria's $76M Debt... by adventured on Monday January 15, 2018 @07:29PM (#16154775)
It wasn't the last time. Pakistan is an extremely large nation with 40+ years of substantial vaccination efforts by the US and West in general. It'd be fair to say that at least 99.9% of that effort was entirely innocent.

The CIA doing what it did should have never happened obviously. That simultaneously doesn't excuse non-vaccination, which is extraordinarily inexpensive and could be performed by Pakistani government persons as a compromise.

Re:Bill and Melinda Gates Are Paying Off Nigeria's $76M Debt... by mschuster91 on Monday January 15, 2018 @08:06PM (#16154994)
> and could be performed by Pakistani government persons as a compromise.

Political opponents still can frame anyone associated with "being an US puppet"... and for the chemtrail-lovers with an addition of "they're not vaccinating you, they're putting tiny microchips into you". Do note I didn't make up that last one, it literally flew somewhere over my Facebook feed today.

Re:Bill and Melinda Gates Are Paying Off Nigeria's $76M Debt... by throwaway2048 on Monday January 15, 2018 @09:31PM (#16155322)
Do you really wanna try to frame the DNA analysis thing as an insane conspiracy theory?

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/jul/11/cia-fake-vacci...

The leaders being suspicious of vaccination efforts is a direct link to this activity, please stop making a cheap "THOSE CRAZY KOOKS BELEIVE ANYTHING" style dismissal.

Re:Bill and Melinda Gates Are Paying Off Nigeria's $76M Debt... by mschuster91 on Tuesday January 16, 2018 @05:02AM (#16157009)
> Do you really wanna try to frame the DNA analysis thing as an insane conspiracy theory?

No. Of course this is real. What I meant was that even using Pakistani staff would not help to restore trust. The CIA really did the world a service...

Re:Bill and Melinda Gates Are Paying Off Nigeria's $76M Debt... by simplemath__ on Monday January 15, 2018 @07:24PM (#16154745)
You're getting downvoted... but this did happen, and is likely to blame for polio's continued presence in western pakistan.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/how-cia-fake-vacc...

Re:Bill and Melinda Gates Are Paying Off Nigeria's $76M Debt... by ascorbic on Tuesday January 16, 2018 @01:28AM (#16156243)
And, let's not diminish this: it's probably to blame for polio existing at all now.
Re:Bill and Melinda Gates Are Paying Off Nigeria's $76M Debt... by TeMPOraL on Tuesday January 16, 2018 @03:50AM (#16156704)
Exactly. It is my belief that the people who ordered this should have their asses dragged in front of the UN and should be tried for crimes against humanity.

You don't mess with vaccinations. Ever.

Re:Bill and Melinda Gates Are Paying Off Nigeria's $76M Debt... by tyrust on Monday January 15, 2018 @07:15PM (#16154688)
>Reddit style

Just as much HN style, where top comments frequently bring up old discussions completely unrelated to the article's content (e.g. js article -> js is a mess, blockchain article -> blockchain is a bubble, megacorp article -> this is why i never use megacorp's products)

Re:Bill and Melinda Gates Are Paying Off Nigeria's $76M Debt... by noobermin on Monday January 15, 2018 @08:59PM (#16155189)
I've noticed what you pointed out is fairly common especially recently, but it wasn't always the case. Moreover, it's incumbent on us to be better than that so to reverse the trend.
Re:Bill and Melinda Gates Are Paying Off Nigeria's $76M Debt... by scubadude on Monday January 15, 2018 @11:07PM (#16155744)
It's not a new problem. The term TFA is at least 18 years old; predates reddit, digg, and maybe even slashdot itself.

https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=TFA

Re:Bill and Melinda Gates Are Paying Off Nigeria's $76M Debt... by noobermin on Monday January 15, 2018 @11:46PM (#16155901)
This is a side discussion, but what a fascinating piece of internet history, I had no idea.
Re:Bill and Melinda Gates Are Paying Off Nigeria's $76M Debt... by garrettgrimsley on Monday January 15, 2018 @11:31PM (#16155841)
Just came off an 11 month involuntary HN-hiatus and noticed that the level of discourse is markedly lower. Wondering whether it could be quantified over time. Maybe a NLP expert could chime in?
Re:Bill and Melinda Gates Are Paying Off Nigeria's $76M Debt... by jackaroe78 on Monday January 15, 2018 @07:30PM (#16154786)
mmm source please
Re:Bill and Melinda Gates Are Paying Off Nigeria's $76M Debt... by Consultant32452 on Monday January 15, 2018 @06:52PM (#16154565)
The thing that's weird to me is that an economy the size of Japan would even keep track of such a thing. The Japanese government could find that kind of money in the couch cushions in the name of humanitarian aid.
Re:Bill and Melinda Gates Are Paying Off Nigeria's $76M Debt... by IkmoIkmo on Monday January 15, 2018 @09:23PM (#16155290)
You could say the same for Gates or the US. Or hell, Nigeria... 75m is < 0.3% of their annual government budget and < 0.02% of their annual GDP.

The answer lies in that it's always a political struggle to appropriate tens of millions of dollars, even if it's a tiny fraction of the whole. Hell, if I ask most people in my apartment building about their attitudes towards us spending 100 million or 100 billion on helping a different country, virtually nobody will really answer much differently. That surprised me a lot, but people just register something in millions or billions as a 'big number', and are either for or against on the basis of their attitude towards things like international development, or their stereotypes of or cultural affinity with the recipient country.

There's actually a lot of studies on people's perceptions on the amount that we give, and virtually all countries vastly overestimate (like, by an order of magnitude) the amount we give. It's not really a matter of numbers, it's just a matter of perceptions, they're political, knowing that it doesn't seem weird at all to me that Japanese officials can't simply get away with doing the right thing. It's really sad.

[0] for example point 1: People are often under the impression that a lot more is spent on foreign aid than it actually is. The average guess of US citizens estimates is that around 31% of the Federal Budget is spent on aid. In fact the US spends less than 1% of the Federal Budget on foreign aid.

https://www.givingwhatwecan.org/get-involved/myths-about-aid...

And this has been found in studies in tons of western countries. It's pretty pathetic how wrong people get this if you think about it.

Re:Bill and Melinda Gates Are Paying Off Nigeria's $76M Debt... by krapp on Monday January 15, 2018 @07:41PM (#16154873)
This was a loan, possibly from the taxpayers, it wasn't charity. Governments don't just "lose track" of $76 million owed to them. Or at least, they shouldn't.

Presumably, Nigeria agreed to the terms, so I don't see the issue.

Re:Bill and Melinda Gates Are Paying Off Nigeria's $76M Debt... by Consultant32452 on Monday January 15, 2018 @07:46PM (#16154896)
I'm sure Nigeria did agree to the terms, but if I were a citizen of Japan I would be embarrassed that the money was not just gifted as part of a foreign aid program.
Re:Bill and Melinda Gates Are Paying Off Nigeria's $76M Debt... by krapp on Monday January 15, 2018 @08:02PM (#16154974)
I would probably feel the same way. But it was a loan, and if I were a citizen of Japan, I also might not be happy about the government loaning out that much money to a foreign country and then forgetting about it.
Re:Bill and Melinda Gates Are Paying Off Nigeria's $76M Debt... by Consultant32452 on Monday January 15, 2018 @08:08PM (#16155001)
I didn't mean they should forget about it in the literal sense. I meant that when Nigeria started putting out the feelers for their loan to put the final nail in the coffin of polio someone in the international community, perhaps Japan, perhaps the US, should have just gifted them the money. The fact that it was a loan in the first place is the problem.
Re:Bill and Melinda Gates Are Paying Off Nigeria's $76M Debt... by jessriedel on Monday January 15, 2018 @10:06PM (#16155470)
Then Japan is the last of the wealthy countries deserving criticism, since they at least made a loan which had a good chance of default.
Re:Bill and Melinda Gates Are Paying Off Nigeria's $76M Debt... by jmkni on Monday January 15, 2018 @09:23PM (#16155288)
To play devils advocate, maybe a Nigerian citizen would consider it a point of national pride to repay their debt?
Re:Bill and Melinda Gates Are Paying Off Nigeria's $76M Debt... by anabis on Tuesday January 16, 2018 @08:52AM (#16158118)
Taking and repaying a loan not only helps in solving the problem that the loan was earmarked for, but it also demonstrates the responsibility of the recipient government.

Making it a loan will also allow for larger sums to be spent.

Japan's ODA has been mainly done in Asia, and to me it looks like its philosophy is producing results.

Re:Bill and Melinda Gates Are Paying Off Nigeria's $76M Debt... by fiblye on Tuesday January 16, 2018 @07:57AM (#16157807)
Nigeria's got a population 50% larger than Japan and they're the largest economy in Africa. I don't see why little countries should be expected to give up their cash to bigger countries just because it's "polite" or something.
Re:Bill and Melinda Gates Are Paying Off Nigeria's $76M Debt... by danjoc on Monday January 15, 2018 @08:05PM (#16154990)
>if I were a citizen of Japan I would be embarrassed

You clearly don't understand the Japanese. If anyone is to be embarrassed, it is the Nigerians promising to pay and then failing to. Accepting money from the Bill Gates foundation is more shameful. Japanese do not beg.

Re:Bill and Melinda Gates Are Paying Off Nigeria's $76M Debt... by esturk on Monday January 15, 2018 @08:56PM (#16155180)
The Japanese did not beg. There's nothing shameful about accepting money from the Bill Gates foundation as it has nothing to do with the nation's inability to do something. You're just spinning this to be about Japan.
Re:Bill and Melinda Gates Are Paying Off Nigeria's $76M Debt... by danjoc on Tuesday January 16, 2018 @10:47AM (#16158979)
>The Japanese did not beg.

Consultant32452 said:

"if I were a citizen of Japan I would be embarrassed that the money was not just gifted as part of a foreign aid program."

And my reply is, no, Japanese citizens would not be at all embarrassed about this. Japanese, culturally, do not give hand outs. Giving out money to beggars is not only something they don't do, but something they don't approve of others doing. It's the moral equivalent to feeding the stray cats in the neighborhood. You aren't helping the cats. You are making the cats dependent on handouts and attracting more of them.

Likewise, the Japanese do not expect handouts either. Japanese do not beg. They are too proud to do it, and they know they will be shamed if they were to try anyway.

I am pointing out to Consultant32452 that if he expects the Japanese to be embarrassed about their lack of giving to Nigeria in this case, he is mistaken. Quite the opposite. What Nigeria has done would be considered shameful shirking in Japan.

Re:Bill and Melinda Gates Are Paying Off Nigeria's $76M Debt... by simplemath__ on Monday January 15, 2018 @06:58PM (#16154589)
Obviously there was something in the way, maybe bad blood between Japan and Nigeria. Who knows? Who cares?

If the Gates Found. is engaging in a bit of 'dollar diplomacy' here, that's even extra value, IMO.

This is high-test, globally impactful philanthropy, and deserves none of the cynical, socio-economic scrutiny it's receiving here.

Re:Bill and Melinda Gates Are Paying Off Nigeria's $76M Debt... by danjoc on Monday January 15, 2018 @07:38PM (#16154848)
>Money well spent.

There have been human costs too,

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/09/world/africa/in-nigeria-po...

Of the nine vaccination workers killed, "Most of the victims were women and were shot in the back of the head"

Re:Bill and Melinda Gates Are Paying Off Nigeria's $76M Debt... by newfoundglory on Monday January 15, 2018 @09:13PM (#16155250)
That doesn’t seem immediately relevant, could you explain why you mentioned it here?
Re:Bill and Melinda Gates Are Paying Off Nigeria's $76M Debt... by fragmede on Monday January 15, 2018 @09:49PM (#16155408)
Danjoc's linked article is about Nigerian Polio vaccine workers being killed in the line of duty back in 2013, which seems relevant to me, as a person dying is a very real, human cost of polio, all the money in the world cannot fix.
Re:Bill and Melinda Gates Are Paying Off Nigeria's $76M Debt... by ridgeguy on Monday January 15, 2018 @09:27PM (#16155311)
Might be irrelevant per HN guidelines.

I took it as a reminder that doing something good may require not only exceptional courage, but one's life. I'm ok with the off-topic aspect of the post.

I continue to be amazed and grateful we have such people.

Re:Bill and Melinda Gates Are Paying Off Nigeria's $76M Debt... by wallace_f on Monday January 15, 2018 @11:41PM (#16155882)
>I continue to be amazed and grateful we have such people

That's a good thing to mention.

Sometimes when I look at Washington, Wall St., or corporate actions, it makes me fear everyone is a hyper-rational sociopath willing to seek out and screw over the other for any profit. But sometimss I'm reminded of the ones who do good for the future of humanity, not just for their bank accounts.