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Re:Shanghai sets population at 25M by inertial on Tuesday December 26, 2017 @05:03AM (#16007953)
Genuinely curious : What's a good alternative to setting a population limit per city ?

Having lived in cities that are crumbling under poor infrastructure, unchecked growth, excessive pollution (from vehicles, stuck in endless traffic jams), shortage of water/electricity, I wonder what can be done to fix this. Everyone from across the country wants to migrate to a few big cities that provide good employment. We shouldn't stop them from seeking opportunities but at the same time the local government has to ensure a minimal quality of life for the existing residents. What would be a short term solution (implementable in 1-3 years) that can balance this ?

Re:Shanghai sets population at 25M by nawitus on Tuesday December 26, 2017 @05:08AM (#16007967)
As long as people are migrating, people are voting with their wallets that a city "crumbling under poor infrastructure" etc. is better than whatever place they're migrating from.
Re:Shanghai sets population at 25M by Al-Khwarizmi on Tuesday December 26, 2017 @05:20AM (#16007997)
It's better for them individually, and under the current conditions. That doesn't mean that changing the conditions (e.g. by some measure that reduces population of the largest cities) cannot bring a situation where the average person ends up better. In ML terms, the local gradient may be leading you to a local optimum.

By the way, individual people aren't good at all at evaluating invisible, long-term costs like that of pollution and its health risks.

Re:Shanghai sets population at 25M by jakubp on Tuesday December 26, 2017 @05:13AM (#16007978)
But people already in that city can't vote with their wallets to stop the immigration.
Re:Shanghai sets population at 25M by nawitus on Tuesday December 26, 2017 @10:18AM (#16008923)
They can vote by moving to another place?
Re:Shanghai sets population at 25M by mantas on Tuesday December 26, 2017 @10:46AM (#16009062)
Or they can vote in government that would put population cap...
Re:Shanghai sets population at 25M by jakubp on Wednesday December 27, 2017 @01:43PM (#16016882)
Maybe. But that would mean people with lower standards replace people with higher standards. I don't think it's the right direction.
Re:Shanghai sets population at 25M by gaius on Tuesday December 26, 2017 @01:34PM (#16010059)
people are voting with their wallets that a city "crumbling under poor infrastructure" etc. is better than whatever place they're migrating from

I don't think that's true, because of imperfect information. A person living in a remote rural location may believe that they can can have a better life in a city, then make the journey at a high price (relative to their own resources) then arrive and find that it's not what they expected and they have no way to get home. I will wager a significant proportion of those impacted by this policy fall into that category.

Re:Shanghai sets population at 25M by peteretep on Tuesday December 26, 2017 @05:20AM (#16007996)
London has a green belt -- an area of land around it which is legally protected. This makes the cost of living in London prohibitive, and limits growth.
Re:Shanghai sets population at 25M by walrus1066 on Tuesday December 26, 2017 @05:49AM (#16008069)
Not sure how much it limits growth, people just cram into ever smaller living spaces, or commute in from towns further away.
Re:Shanghai sets population at 25M by peteretep on Tuesday December 26, 2017 @07:14AM (#16008272)
It was 8.3m 100 years ago, and it's 9.1m now.
Re:Shanghai sets population at 25M by delecti on Tuesday December 26, 2017 @09:09AM (#16008647)
There were a couple notable wars in that time though.
Re:Shanghai sets population at 25M by smnrchrds on Wednesday December 27, 2017 @01:06AM (#16013201)
The first world war barely registers on the graph. The second world war shows a small decrease in population. But the largest decrease is seen in the 70s and 80s. I have no idea why. But see the data for yourself:

https://data.london.gov.uk/dataset/population-change-1939-20...

Re:Shanghai sets population at 25M by mbesto on Tuesday December 26, 2017 @10:06AM (#16008863)
Which would have done what? Reduce the population because of death?
Re:Shanghai sets population at 25M by rspeer on Tuesday December 26, 2017 @12:17PM (#16009521)
Moving out of London during the Blitz was a way to avoid death.
Re:Shanghai sets population at 25M by vkou on Tuesday December 26, 2017 @09:18AM (#16008676)
England was barely affected by the first World War. France, Germany, Austria, Serbia, the Ottoman Empire, and Russia bore the brunt of the fighting.

And compared to the other belligerents, it was barely affected by the second, too. British colonial policies during the war killed more of their own subjects in India, then the Germans ever did on the home isles. (For anyone wondering why India sought independence... Well, that was a factor.)

Re:Shanghai sets population at 25M by ihsw2 on Tuesday December 26, 2017 @09:56AM (#16008818)
The British economy nosedived into total exhaustion of resources, with resource rationing extending to 1956. It was closely intertwined with the French economy for a century before WW2 and its assets were wholly seized/decimated.

If WW2 went on for much longer then the UK would have descended into universal abject poverty and total societal collapse.

Granted this universal suffering of the populace ushered in the social-welfare state Britain is so commonly known for nowadays, it was nonetheless devastating.

Re:Shanghai sets population at 25M by vkou on Tuesday January 02, 2018 @04:23PM (#16055803)
Most rationing in the UK ended in 1950.

That total exhaustion of resources happened due to decolonization, and taking on much debt (Much of which was inflated away over the next decade.) As it turned out, the resource shortages didn't matter, either, due to free trade. 1945 to 1960 had the highest rate of economic growth that the UK has ever experienced.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_history_of_the_United...

Re:Shanghai sets population at 25M by cromon on Tuesday December 26, 2017 @06:14AM (#16008112)
London hasn't fallen in population since the 90s in fact it's been a steady rise since then(0). These are just the official stats, anecdotally there is noticeably a lot more people in London than when I was a teenager.

(0) https://www.trustforlondon.org.uk/data/londons-population-ov...

Re:Shanghai sets population at 25M by peteretep on Tuesday December 26, 2017 @07:13AM (#16008270)
It's still the same as it was in 1939 though... And if you compare it with any Chinese city, London's slow re-population looks exceptionally sluggish.
Re:Shanghai sets population at 25M by igravious on Tuesday December 26, 2017 @12:21PM (#16009545)
Where are the people going to come from? UK is already 83% urbanized: https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SP.URB.TOTL.IN.ZS?year_...

Not many rurals gonna migrate to the big smoke and as you can tell from Brexit the Brits ain't too keen any more on inwards migration.

Let's not forget that from ~1825 to ~1925 London was the largest city in the world: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_largest_cities_through...

Re:Shanghai sets population at 25M by justicezyx on Tuesday December 26, 2017 @12:54PM (#16009748)
Nice data, blind comparison without context is intentionally misleading
Re:Shanghai sets population at 25M by peteretep on Wednesday December 27, 2017 @05:48AM (#16014042)
> Where are the people going to come from?

The rest of Europe.

Re:Shanghai sets population at 25M by iagooar on Tuesday December 26, 2017 @05:33AM (#16008025)
What does "legally protected" mean in this context? What makes that land different? Genuinely curious.
Re:Shanghai sets population at 25M by chillydawg on Tuesday December 26, 2017 @05:36AM (#16008038)
It means planning permission is very rarely granted for new buildings and usually only in exceptional circumstances or when it is a public facility. Planning law in the UK has special protections for areas designated as green belt.
Re:Shanghai sets population at 25M by dublidu on Tuesday December 26, 2017 @11:23AM (#16009239)
Moving government jobs out of these mega cities. This is mentioned in the article as something Beijing planned to do. US should also move some jobs out of DC and into a cheaper area that needs a job boost.
Re:Shanghai sets population at 25M by r00fus on Tuesday December 26, 2017 @05:40PM (#16011508)
Moving government jobs = moving the lobbyist coterie that would move with them?

Or would those stay in DC as the power in politics remains?

Re:Shanghai sets population at 25M by yulaow on Tuesday December 26, 2017 @05:19AM (#16007991)
Most people just move to the big cities because there there are the jobs which pay better (and the chance to hop between them in case of being fired, without having to relocate)

A good start could be just to make remote all the jobs that can be made remote, but of course this would not cover a big part of jobs which need a whole team in the same location and specialized machinery (Eg the whole manufacturing sector)

Re:Shanghai sets population at 25M by mcny on Tuesday December 26, 2017 @06:22AM (#16008146)
> A good start could be just to make remote all the jobs that can be made remote, but of course this would not cover a big part of jobs which need a whole team in the same location and specialized machinery (Eg the whole manufacturing sector)

Marissa Mayer raised the question of in-office vs remote at Yahoo! and I am still not convinced either way. If we had a robust basic income, we should just let go of people who we feel are dead-weight on our team? https://archive.fo/ThVv9

On the other side of the spectrum, the concept of a "manufacturing city" in China PR is troubling. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=91s87s2Ar20 What happens when someone is not capable of working anymore?

Re:Shanghai sets population at 25M by yulaow on Tuesday December 26, 2017 @06:44AM (#16008187)
I think we all know that the Marissa Mayer "war" on remote jobs was just a PR move to facilitate a rapid mass layoff without negative moral repercussions on the rest of the Yahoo teams. We should not take her words as a serious reflection on the issue
Re:Shanghai sets population at 25M by IronKettle on Tuesday December 26, 2017 @07:39AM (#16008347)
I was at Yahoo from 2010-201X. It was really bad. Tons of remote employees you couldn't count on to give you the time of day, let alone do anything meaningful.

Was the problem remote jobs? No, probably not. The problem was complacency: Complacent employees who didn't want to work and used remote jobs as an excuse not to do anything. Complacent managers who didn't know how to manage remote employees and didn't want to learn.

Did we have remote employees who were amazing? Hell yeah. Did lazy employees overwhelmingly choose to become remote because it was the easiest way not to do any work? Hell yeah. There were more than a few stories (not from management, even) about employees who hadn't even logged in in a couple months. It was beyond the typical "bad employee gets no work done," it was just "bad employee doesn't work one iota."

My takeaway was that managing remote employees is a skill that many managers don't possess, and bad employees knew that and capitalized on it very effectively.

So you're correct that it was a move to facilitate a rapid mass layoff, but the part that's unsaid there is that the people being laid off were overwhelmingly the worst employees anyway. Their managers should've been given the boot as well.

Re:Shanghai sets population at 25M by jakobegger on Tuesday December 26, 2017 @05:15AM (#16007986)
I don't think there are any short term solutions, but there are a lot of medium/long time things you can do.

One policy I have found very interesting is to require developers to "invest" in the neighbourhood in exchange for building permits.

For example, the government could require developers to pay for public infrastructure before they can build (eg. they need to pay a part of a new subway line, or they need to renew the sewer system etc.)

This helps address the problem that there is lots of capital available for building new stuff, but nobody wants to pay for maintenance.

Re:Shanghai sets population at 25M by CuriousSkeptic on Tuesday December 26, 2017 @06:04AM (#16008089)
Why not simply increase property taxes?

Or, long term, lease all properties at market rate.

Re:Shanghai sets population at 25M by closeparen on Tuesday December 26, 2017 @03:36PM (#16010847)
1) Move away from internal combustion vehicles as the basis of your transportation system. Use rising productivity to grow public transit capacity. Concentrate new developments and migrants into central areas where cars aren’t needed.

2) Zone most blocks for (high quality, safe) towers and make others into parks.

Re:Shanghai sets population at 25M by mentos on Tuesday December 26, 2017 @01:24PM (#16009981)
Incentivize remote work?