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Re:Comcast is injecting 400+ lines of JavaScript into web pages by candiodari on Sunday December 10, 2017 @05:02AM (#15890747)
The thing that's so irritating about large telco's is not just that they're evil, but the casual stupidity of their actions, including their evil actions.

I mean, look at the code. Look at the function of this code. Look at the business purpose of this code. Look at the security aspects of using this code. Look at the legal ramifications (why the hell is that LGPL thing up top there ?). Look at their internal communication. Look at how easy it is to see exactly what they're doing ...

All of it screams "no double digit IQs anywhere near this thing".

And yes, I mean, I know that's not true. Their people are not this stupid (though some must be). But they do this anyway. The organisation does business analysis at the level of a 5 year old, codes like a 10 year old, obviously this has not passed legal review, ...

How can an organisation that executes this badly become this big ? I mean, I know the answer is "government" and government making them a monopoly, but still. WTF.

Re:Comcast is injecting 400+ lines of JavaScript into web pages by kw71 on Sunday December 10, 2017 @08:25AM (#15891278)
I have a few years of experience inside Comcast and I've concluded that Comcast's executive management are the ones at fault here. Across several divisions, their engineers have been fantastic and a pleasure to work with. This all goes to shit when the businesspeople around the engineers are making terrible, selfish decisions and optimizing their hourly employees for numbers (call center I'm looking at YOU)
Re:Comcast is injecting 400+ lines of JavaScript into web pages by rubyfan on Sunday December 10, 2017 @08:52AM (#15891358)
Almost every big company that has a call center is looking to optimize their hourly employees. In most cases they are the largest staffs and are highly sensitive to census tolerances. It’s definitely not just Comcast.
Re:Comcast is injecting 400+ lines of JavaScript into web pages by taf2 on Sunday December 10, 2017 @08:33AM (#15891295)
If more people blew up the call center like the guy in the posted forum.. they would notice. But very few people notice
Re:Comcast is injecting 400+ lines of JavaScript into web pages by jstanley on Sunday December 10, 2017 @08:42AM (#15891322)
Good engineers don't do evil things, even if their bosses tell them to.
Re:Comcast is injecting 400+ lines of JavaScript into web pages by nkrisc on Sunday December 10, 2017 @08:46AM (#15891341)
A mortgage and tuition for kids is a powerful motivator.
Re:Comcast is injecting 400+ lines of JavaScript into web pages by kodablah on Sunday December 10, 2017 @08:55AM (#15891365)
To be fair, I'd say "good engineers" especially where Comcast is, probably choose their employer not the other way around. Not to say whether they are right or wrong for working there, but we shouldn't pretend "good engineers" are otherwise destitute.
Re:Comcast is injecting 400+ lines of JavaScript into web pages by paulie_a on Sunday December 10, 2017 @09:55AM (#15891623)
The yuppy nuremberg defense. From the excellent movie "thank you for smoking"
Re:Comcast is injecting 400+ lines of JavaScript into web pages by Spooky23 on Sunday December 10, 2017 @10:37AM (#15891841)
Evil is often banal.
Re:Comcast is injecting 400+ lines of JavaScript into web pages by katastic on Sunday December 10, 2017 @10:26AM (#15891781)
You guys sound like you're 20.

You think things in the world are so "obviously" black and white.

Comcast making shitty business decisions is not burning Jews in ovens. And the fact your not immediately laughed out of the room when you make such comparisons is the real sad reflection of society in this thread.

Re:Comcast is injecting 400+ lines of JavaScript into web pages by macawfish on Sunday December 10, 2017 @11:02AM (#15891961)
There are other companies doing much more evil things.
Re:Comcast is injecting 400+ lines of JavaScript into web pages by frogperson on Sunday December 10, 2017 @09:39AM (#15891547)
A good person doesnt blindly follow orders period. You dont get to call yourself a good person just because you signed a mortgauge or had a kid. If your actions are bad, then you are bad.
Re:Comcast is injecting 400+ lines of JavaScript into web pages by sopooneo on Sunday December 10, 2017 @10:03AM (#15891673)
Reality forces a choice between lesser evils at times.
Re:Comcast is injecting 400+ lines of JavaScript into web pages by mythrwy on Sunday December 10, 2017 @09:06AM (#15891404)
"Good" as in morally upright? (in which case true).

or

"Good" as in technically competent? (in which case untrue).

Re:Comcast is injecting 400+ lines of JavaScript into web pages by eponeponepon on Sunday December 10, 2017 @09:21AM (#15891465)
These are not separate concerns. Morality is a necessary part of competence.
Re:Comcast is injecting 400+ lines of JavaScript into web pages by hanbura on Sunday December 10, 2017 @09:31AM (#15891512)
[citation needed]

In any case, here the intended meaning was clearly "technical ability", which doesn't require morality

Re:Comcast is injecting 400+ lines of JavaScript into web pages by hexane360 on Monday December 11, 2017 @01:47AM (#15895547)
If there's one belief I think needs to be more widespread in technical circles, it's this. Good engineers recognize the impact of their engineering, and engineer for social good. We don't remember programmers because of how good their programming was, we remember them because of how good the programs they made were.
Re:Comcast is injecting 400+ lines of JavaScript into web pages by 8note on Sunday December 10, 2017 @10:15AM (#15891730)
it's the engineer part that suggests the moral uprightness. without that, it's more "developer"

"good" as in having the qualities required for a particular role, as per Google.

Re:Comcast is injecting 400+ lines of JavaScript into web pages by cm2187 on Sunday December 10, 2017 @05:11AM (#15890780)
I don’t think it is just telcos. It is amazing how scale, inertia, lack of accountability and bureaucracy dumbs down large corporations that mostly consist of smart educated people.

A million Shakespeares typing on typewriters write no better than a monkey!

Re:Comcast is injecting 400+ lines of JavaScript into web pages by scrollaway on Sunday December 10, 2017 @05:24AM (#15890805)
> A million Shakespeares typing on typewriters write no better than a monkey!

I like it, although I think the analogy fails here. How about "An infinite amount of Shakespeares typing on the same typewriter will inevitably produce garbage"? :)

Re:Comcast is injecting 400+ lines of JavaScript into web pages by GlennS on Sunday December 10, 2017 @08:01AM (#15891215)
I wonder what Shakespeare would have thought of typewriters?

Would we have gotten twice as many plays out of him?

He was clearly slacking.

Re:Comcast is injecting 400+ lines of JavaScript into web pages by neonhomer on Sunday December 10, 2017 @08:20AM (#15891266)
It's not just telcos. The second-hand details I hear from a major bank makes me cringe everyday. And the main issues tend to be laziness and selfishness.
Re:Comcast is injecting 400+ lines of JavaScript into web pages by Sharlin on Sunday December 10, 2017 @05:54AM (#15890870)
> I mean, I know the answer is "government" and government making them a monopoly, but still. WTF.

Eh, telco infrastructure is a natural monopoly. No government needed for that.

Re:Comcast is injecting 400+ lines of JavaScript into web pages by vidarh on Sunday December 10, 2017 @08:34AM (#15891298)
No, but government could easily have opted for a regulatory regime that prevented it from being a problem, instead of allowing them to continue milking their situation.

The EU member states implementation of deregulation of the telecoms sector is far from perfect, but most of them have ended with something that works reasonably well.

E.g. in the UK, while the cable operator (there's only one of note left standing) has mostly escaped regulation, but BT had it's last-mile infrastructure subjected to heavy regulation to the point where it's been split out into its own company (OpenReach) that maintains the network and is legally obliged to resell access to anyone at the same terms.

You can even get the prices to terminate an IP connection with a subscriber on their website.

ISPs can put equipment in the BT exchanges and get a raw connection, or can pay for "backhaul" to a set of central locations.

I know the US also has a form of local-loop unbundling, but it's clearly not working very well given the level of complaints people have about these services in the US. Possibly because of the price-setting mechanism?

As a result there's a lot of competition in the ISP space in the UK (as there is elsewhere in the EU).

(Where it's not perfect is that the way the regulations have been set up gives too few incentives for BT to invest and innovate in the last mile network and is often accused of milking OpenReach for profit; two ways of improving on that would be to restrict how much profit they could take out as dividends to a proportion of how much they reinvest in network improvements and/or split maintenance/operation into regional franchises and force companies like OpenReach to bid for it on a franchise basis; though the latter is hard to get the evaluation-criteria right for)

Re:Comcast is injecting 400+ lines of JavaScript into web pages by tolien on Sunday December 10, 2017 @10:30AM (#15891797)
> ISPs can put equipment in the BT exchanges and get a raw connection, or can pay for "backhaul" to a set of central locations.

It's worth noting this involves two different layers of regulatory separation.

Most ISPs don't run their own LLU operation. They buy access from one of BT Wholesale or TalkTalk Wholesale (who are technically LLUers and both, in turn, use the last-mile network run by Openreach). As you say, the prices which both of the BT Group companies are allowed to charge are regulated and published and companies can "innovate" at quality of service or features offered.

The relevant part here is that the US has never AFAIK had the same wholesale access model. With that, an upstart ISP could have the same coverage as Verizon/Comcast/etc but have the option of not doing these scummy things and/or being as network-neutral as they pleased, within the limits of their business model, without having to spend boatloads of money building a network to access those customers. LLU, on the other hand, requires way more investment so it's not surprising that it never really took off in the US where DSL always seemed like the poor relation compared to the cable networks.

Re:Comcast is injecting 400+ lines of JavaScript into web pages by scottmf on Sunday December 10, 2017 @10:33AM (#15891815)
There’s a lot to dislike about the UK government, but the way they regulated the ISP market is perfect. We have one of the most competitive ISP markets in the world.

In my time in the US several years ago I was horrified at the cost and quality of internet (and mobile) service compared to the UK.

Any strong libertarian ideals I once had were crushed by the reality of things like this. (Healthcare too but that’s another discussion).

Re:Comcast is injecting 400+ lines of JavaScript into web pages by vidarh on Wednesday December 13, 2017 @10:30AM (#15914800)
I don't really think it's perfect - it lets BT milk OpenReach rather than reinvest more. But it's decent.

It's worth noting, though, that this is the EU's doing, through the Telecoms Directive, not something the UK government did of its own accord.

Re:Comcast is injecting 400+ lines of JavaScript into web pages by benbenolson on Sunday December 10, 2017 @10:55AM (#15891920)
No, it's not a "natural monopoly." The primary issue right now is getting the legal right to use this infrastructure, which is protected by local city and county governments. Most of these local governments simply choose to not allow other companies to move in.

https://www.wired.com/2013/07/we-need-to-stop-focusing-on-ju...

https://tech.slashdot.org/story/17/04/12/0345217/tennessee-c...

Re:Comcast is injecting 400+ lines of JavaScript into web pages by Hendrikto on Sunday December 10, 2017 @05:58AM (#15890888)
Bs. Heard about the 1996 telecommunicatins act? The government payed for their monopoly, and now it lets them keep it and not share it.
Re:Comcast is injecting 400+ lines of JavaScript into web pages by pas on Sunday December 10, 2017 @07:13AM (#15891090)
They have to share the last mile infrastructure with new entrants. And the FCC can preempt local and state level requirements to help new entrants.

The current problems are that a) since Trump the FCC is shit, b) local municipalities "vowing" to not enter the market (and others have no incentive).

See these for b: - https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2017/11/voters-reject-ca... - https://www.wired.com/2013/07/we-need-to-stop-focusing-on-ju...

Re:Comcast is injecting 400+ lines of JavaScript into web pages by djrogers on Sunday December 10, 2017 @11:01AM (#15891957)
> The current problems are that a) since Trump the FCC is $#\¥

Oh please, he’s been in office less than a year - none of this amazing ‘sharing’ happened under the previous administration either. It’s totally understandable to have (in my case many) disagreements with the Presidents and their policies, but this knee-jerk habit of blaming whoever is currently in office for everything because he’s not on our team is counterproductive.

Re:Comcast is injecting 400+ lines of JavaScript into web pages by charcoal23 on Sunday December 10, 2017 @03:06PM (#15893226)
The FCC under Trump has been very friendly to the large enterprises at the expense of small businesses and customers. Trump himself has approved many regulatory changes which are hostile to small businesses, employees and customers across many different industries.

It's safe to say at this point that we have a clear idea of what decisions Trump and his FCC will make in the future, and that there would little to no hope for decisions which will increase competition. A year is plenty of time for assessing the character of an adminstration, and Trump's has been remarkably consistent in this regard.

Re:Comcast is injecting 400+ lines of JavaScript into web pages by pas on Monday December 11, 2017 @04:19AM (#15895958)
> blaming ... for everything

Not for everything.

I blamed O'dog for the fucking shady counterproductive NSA practices that he allowed to continue.

The Obama DoJ took a dump regularly on whistleblowers.

And the infamous CIA kill-by-drone program.

And those are just the obvious big ticket items.

Re:Comcast is injecting 400+ lines of JavaScript into web pages by scottmf on Sunday December 10, 2017 @10:45AM (#15891880)
Is that when they subsidized the ISPs with billions to build out infrastructure, which they never did?

The problem with anti-government rhetoric in the US is it creates a self-fulfilling prophecy. Government is not inherently as incompetent and weak as yours often is.

There is no reason why a regulatory solution cannot work in the US when they work well in many other countries of greatly varying size and population density.

If your government fails you, that is not a failure of government: it is a failure of your government.

Re:Comcast is injecting 400+ lines of JavaScript into web pages by throwanem on Sunday December 10, 2017 @10:58AM (#15891941)
You're assuming it was written any time in the last, oh, decade or more? That's surprising. Perhaps you've never spent time in a cost center far outside the profit centers of a large enterprise, where things that work are left alone to do so, because you're not going to get investment in replacing them or bringing them up to date with modern best practices, because they work.

I mean, there are weekend hacks of similar age and quality, with my name on them, that I know are still in active service. Because, for all their myriad other faults, they mostly work, and everyone who works with them is used to using them and to dealing with the occasional cases in which they misbehave. These are not things which anyone rebuilds just for the sake of it. So they go on being used until they stop working entirely, and the the business replaces them with something else.

Whether or not that's a sensible way to go about things is an open question, if you like. I don't think it is, because these aren't the sorts of things which cripple a business if they misfire - or make much impact even if they don't. So investing heavily in them would seem like a waste of money, though perhaps you disagree. But the world need not be mad for this to be the way of things.

Re:Comcast is injecting 400+ lines of JavaScript into web pages by betterunix2 on Sunday December 10, 2017 @07:21AM (#15891103)
Under Ajit Pai's reasoning, by doing this, Comcast is adding to the evidence that it is an "information service" rather than a "communication service."
Re:Comcast is injecting 400+ lines of JavaScript into web pages by exikyut on Sunday December 10, 2017 @05:09AM (#15890767)
Yep.

The random classList polyfill at the bottom was a nice touch. As I scrolled to this bit I was initially like "oh this'll be nice they encrypted some of--oh. :("

My favorite bit was the "this detects the browser type and version" snippet that was copyrighted 2001. Nice!

I think the move to open-source the code was a ham-fisted way to get the "we're modifying copyrighted documents in flight" part past the lawyers. It's admittedly a pretty decent legal move.

Re:Comcast is injecting 400+ lines of JavaScript into web pages by icebraining on Sunday December 10, 2017 @07:33AM (#15891138)
I think the move to open-source the code was a ham-fisted way to get the "we're modifying copyrighted documents in flight" part past the lawyers. It's admittedly a pretty decent legal move.

I don't get it, how does that work?

Re:Comcast is injecting 400+ lines of JavaScript into web pages by Sephr on Tuesday December 12, 2017 @04:46PM (#15909819)
He is mistaken, it has nothing to do with it. My code is included in Comcast's injected code, but that doesn't mean any of Comcast's liability has shifted to me.
Re:Comcast is injecting 400+ lines of JavaScript into web pages by raverbashing on Sunday December 10, 2017 @07:57AM (#15891202)
> How can an organisation that executes this badly become this big ?

Lots of ads, undercut your competition by something like $1 and "new customer deals" and then shaft your customers after a while

The average customer just go to the store with the flashier lights (or the one which is more convenient)

Re:Comcast is injecting 400+ lines of JavaScript into web pages by mr_toad on Monday December 11, 2017 @01:03AM (#15895418)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_monopoly

"A natural monopoly is a monopoly in an industry in which high infrastructural costs and other barriers to entry relative to the size of the market give the largest supplier in an industry, often the first supplier in a market, an overwhelming advantage over potential competitors."

Re:Comcast is injecting 400+ lines of JavaScript into web pages by morganvachon on Sunday December 10, 2017 @01:32PM (#15892716)
> "undercut your competition"

When there even is any competition. Where I live, it's literally Comcast or else tether my mobile phone. Satellite is technically an option, but realistically between the cost and my tree coverage there's no way to make it work.

Re:Comcast is injecting 400+ lines of JavaScript into web pages by nasredin on Sunday December 10, 2017 @08:43AM (#15891326)
LMFTFY:

The average customer just goes to their cable company (coax cable) or their telephone company (DSL).

(And the kicker is... they both suck!)

Re:Comcast is injecting 400+ lines of JavaScript into web pages by autokad on Sunday December 10, 2017 @10:18AM (#15891746)
i look at some companies and I just shake my head.

Microsoft in the last 10 years, and consider how much talent and budget they have access to.

i remember when zynga had to lay off programmers by the thousands. I was thinking, they had THOUSANDS of programmers and the best they came up with was skins over top of farmville?

Re:Comcast is injecting 400+ lines of JavaScript into web pages by syshum on Sunday December 10, 2017 @08:53AM (#15891361)
it is my experiance the more smart people you add to a team the lower the collective IQ becomes

Once you get up to around 20+ people on the team, the collective IQ of that teams drops to level where stupid things like this happen...

Nothing good from development by committee, this appears to be a project that was developed by committee

Re:Comcast is injecting 400+ lines of JavaScript into web pages by drdaeman on Sunday December 10, 2017 @09:34AM (#15891525)
I'm not sure it's about developers. Just consider - a pointy haired boss returns from a meeting and says "it's decided - make it show our sales-boosting popup here".

Rather than arguing, I guess, many (who haven't left for one reason or another) would just go with "uh, whatever" attitude and slap something together just enough for PHB to see that popup (and let customer complaints do the rest).

Re:Comcast is injecting 400+ lines of JavaScript into web pages by lawn on Sunday December 10, 2017 @09:10AM (#15891419)
True evil isn't of the calculating kind. It's the incredibly stupid kind.
Re:Comcast is injecting 400+ lines of JavaScript into web pages by pbhjpbhj on Sunday December 10, 2017 @12:23PM (#15892362)
>obviously this has not passed legal review //

What makes that obvious to you - appears to pass the "we're unlikely to be fined and any fine will be too small to bother us" legal review.

Re:Comcast is injecting 400+ lines of JavaScript into web pages by eternalban on Sunday December 10, 2017 @10:31AM (#15891802)
> How can an organisation that executes this badly become this big ? I mean, I know the answer is "government" and government making them a monopoly, but still. WTF.

Because "National Security".