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Re:Hundreds of web firms record 'every keystroke' by mattzito on Wednesday November 29, 2017 @08:27AM (#15806541)
I agree that this can be used for ill, but there's a number of very valid reasons to use these tools:

- Heatmap views of where people hover and start to type

- capture of individual sessions to research support cases

- Better understanding of user flows through a site or web app

And all of these tools, at least the reputable ones cited in the article, allow you to mask fields or parts of the screens so that PII isn't captured, and reputable companies do that.

The other part of this is that I don't think the article captures well is that these tools aren't used for targeting of ads or personalization or "spying" in the sense of malice, but to try to better understand users, what they're trying to find on a site, and clarify pain when using applications. I also think the people that use these tools, generally speaking, are perfectly fine with blocking them, since it's meant as a diagnostic and analytic tool.

Re:Hundreds of web firms record 'every keystroke' by tzahola on Wednesday November 29, 2017 @09:26AM (#15806977)
"There are a number of very valid reasons to install cameras and microphones in every living room. Consider the amount of domestic abuse that could be prevented this way! Also, interior designers could further understand and tweak the layout of people's living rooms for optimal recreation and entertainment."
Re:Hundreds of web firms record 'every keystroke' by talmand on Wednesday November 29, 2017 @10:15AM (#15807361)
A more correct comparison is a store recording how people shop in their locations to better optimize paths and locations of products. Your comparison is more like an app that watches everything you do on your computer outside the context of the app.

Not quite the same thing.

Re:Hundreds of web firms record 'every keystroke' by dsfyu404ed on Wednesday November 29, 2017 @01:10PM (#15809238)
Fine then, compare it to a TV that watches you back whenever you're looking at it.
Re:Hundreds of web firms record 'every keystroke' by whateverssssss on Wednesday November 29, 2017 @04:57PM (#15811257)
false, many many websites have much of your very personal information, information that is not leaked by walking around a store.
Re:Hundreds of web firms record 'every keystroke' by db48x on Wednesday November 29, 2017 @08:58PM (#15812812)
Unless you signed up for the loyalty card.
Re:Hundreds of web firms record 'every keystroke' by rbobby on Wednesday November 29, 2017 @10:52AM (#15807717)
> a store recording how people shop in their locations to better optimize paths and locations of products

Hmmm... nice pitch. Has your series A filled up yet?

/hehehe like I have money :)

Re:Hundreds of web firms record 'every keystroke' by ryukafalz on Wednesday November 29, 2017 @12:33PM (#15808859)
Re:Hundreds of web firms record 'every keystroke' by dec0dedab0de on Wednesday November 29, 2017 @11:50AM (#15808299)
An even more correct comparison is if you invited a salesperson into your house and they had hidden cameras and other sensors recording everything.
Re:Hundreds of web firms record 'every keystroke' by bhhaskin on Wednesday November 29, 2017 @12:39PM (#15808936)
Not really, because again it doesn't recorded anything outside of it's context. It's more like being part of a user study group every time you use their product, whether or not you want to be, or agree to be.
Re:Hundreds of web firms record 'every keystroke' by onion2k on Wednesday November 29, 2017 @08:52AM (#15806721)
there's a number of very valid reasons to use these tools

They're very useful for testing. I don't think there's any debate about that. The issue is with using them in production capturing everyone's data with no regard for a user's privacy.

Re:Hundreds of web firms record 'every keystroke' by consp on Wednesday November 29, 2017 @08:37AM (#15806601)
Doing this without explicit user consent (explicit, detailed and with risks shown) is illegal for all 'good' use cases. (At least in the EU). It is criminal for all others.

Edit: It also needs to be stored anonymously, though even people I know who build wifi/bluetooth tracking software&hardware say that is almost impossible.

Re:Hundreds of web firms record 'every keystroke' by mattzito on Wednesday November 29, 2017 @08:55AM (#15806745)
So, in a GDPR world, it is true that you need to get more explicit user consent for the gathering of this permission. However, I think it's overly dramatic to say "illegal for all good use cases" and criminal for others. These tools have been used for years in the EU, with signoff from lawyers and regulators when PII is being obfuscated or removed.
Re:Hundreds of web firms record 'every keystroke' by pbhjpbhj on Wednesday November 29, 2017 @12:06PM (#15808496)
GDPR is addressing precisely these things though, and tightening up the allowed actions. It doesn't really matter if it was previously allowed, you need explicit documented consent to store PII.

But, I thought it wasn't coming in to force until next May.

Re:Hundreds of web firms record 'every keystroke' by Raphmedia on Wednesday November 29, 2017 @09:47AM (#15807142)
> what they're trying to find on a site, and clarify pain when using applications.

No. We are doing analytics for the sole purpose of selling our products and services better. Let's not kid ourselves into thinking we are spying on our users for the greater good. Nobody implements user tracking simply to make their user's lives better. If it does happens, it's merely a side effect of our sales strategies.

Re:Hundreds of web firms record 'every keystroke' by erikbern on Wednesday November 29, 2017 @08:55AM (#15806743)
I've found these tools extremely useful to understand user behavior. We rely on Fullstory all the time to improve the user experience, to identify bugs, and to debug user issues.

The result of these tools is a far better user experience on our site and many other sites.

"recording every keystroke" makes it sound like there's malicious intent, but it's misleading. It should be added that all these tools have a lot of options to avoid tracking sensitive data (like password fields) and we always rely on that (in fact anything else would be a compliance violation for us).

Re:Hundreds of web firms record 'every keystroke' by titzer on Wednesday November 29, 2017 @09:32AM (#15807012)
> "recording every keystroke" makes it sound like there's malicious intent

Thinking from a security perspective, I'm not sure "intent" is an important consideration. The question is: should third parties have the technical capability to do this?

IMO there are enough bad actors out there to answer this with a resounding _no_, at least by default.

If you want to record user browsing sessions, you should ask permission.

Re:Hundreds of web firms record 'every keystroke' by zerocrates on Wednesday November 29, 2017 @09:49AM (#15807155)
I suppose the issue here is that these aren't really "third" parties doing the recording, even if they're using third-party scripts.
Re:Hundreds of web firms record 'every keystroke' by arkh on Wednesday November 29, 2017 @10:35AM (#15807553)
Yeah the owner of the website which include the script has only their website data.

The third party follows users over all the websites they're deployed on. Best example is google analytics and all beacons scripts (G+, FB like, share on twitter etc.) which track you almost everywhere.

Re:Hundreds of web firms record 'every keystroke' by evgen on Wednesday November 29, 2017 @09:30AM (#15807002)
I don't have any malicious intent, but don't mind me as I set up camp here in your bedroom...
Re:Hundreds of web firms record 'every keystroke' by nippples on Wednesday November 29, 2017 @08:47AM (#15806679)
There's a lot of "valid reasons" for doing a lot of bad things.
Re:Hundreds of web firms record 'every keystroke' by gkya on Wednesday November 29, 2017 @09:42AM (#15807100)
Certainly if someone breaks into my house and watches it with not-spy-at-all cameras, they can know how I live and provide me with better products shaped for my habits and preferences, and help me with emergencies or particularly difficult tasks. But that might be sliiightly inconvenient at times, no?
Re:Hundreds of web firms record 'every keystroke' by talmand on Wednesday November 29, 2017 @10:16AM (#15807367)
Not quite the same thing.
Re:Hundreds of web firms record 'every keystroke' by Brotkrumen on Wednesday November 29, 2017 @08:35AM (#15806591)
Passwords, medical records and credit card information are so sensitive that it's irrelevant that there are good uses for the tech that captures them or that at some point in the pipeline they get masked.
Re:Hundreds of web firms record 'every keystroke' by mattzito on Wednesday November 29, 2017 @08:39AM (#15806608)
So, to be clear, the way at least the tools I've worked with operate:

- websites implementing these tools need to specifically opt-in text fields they want to capture the inputs for

- for HTML-side capture, the javascript will obfuscate PII before sending it to the servers

- some of these tools will not capture password fields under any circumstances

Does that address some of your concerns?

Re:Hundreds of web firms record 'every keystroke' by Brotkrumen on Wednesday November 29, 2017 @09:02AM (#15806799)
No. There's too many parties involved I'd have to trust to a) want to keep my data save and b) don't mess up. And even if both are true, I have to accept yet another way with several points of failure where bad agent could exfiltrate my data.
Re:Hundreds of web firms record 'every keystroke' by PJDK on Wednesday November 29, 2017 @10:02AM (#15807257)
But this is being run by a party you trust with that data in the first place surely?

It's capturing the things you are typing into the website's input boxes!

Re:Hundreds of web firms record 'every keystroke' by orwin on Wednesday November 29, 2017 @11:00AM (#15807788)
We trust the website we give our information to. It is https-based (else my browser will tell me) and probably using an ORM that will 99% of the time hash my password. But the javascript layer...

Sorry, call me paranoiac, but i will never trust the javascript of a website. With no webdev experience, i was able to inject js (almost by mistake) three years ago. Moreover, is the js communicating with the backend using https too? How can i check that? Are those js library on the website server, or are they hosted by a third party? I can trust them, but how do i know that no attacker was able to modify those scripts? Yes, those risks are small, but i'd rather have ublock making those risks closer tho 0 than not, am i wrong?

Re:Hundreds of web firms record 'every keystroke' by krangu on Wednesday November 29, 2017 @10:56AM (#15807739)
Just because you trust the first party site with that information doesn't mean you would necessarily trust a third party to store or transmit that info.
Re:Hundreds of web firms record 'every keystroke' by pmlnr on Wednesday November 29, 2017 @08:36AM (#15806597)
> number of very valid reasons

I'm genuinely curious what steps are executed once this data is collected.

Also, in theory, you only need to do this after design/layout changes and only for a while, so what justifies collecting it all the time? I might be wrong though.

Re:Hundreds of web firms record 'every keystroke' by mattzito on Wednesday November 29, 2017 @08:48AM (#15806683)
So, again, the use cases here are varied. For the most common, which is understanding user behavior, you'll do something like:

- I'm going to capture 5% of users sessions as they progress through a purchase funnel

- I capture data for a few days after a design change, and look at behavioral changes, such as spending more time in a particular step of the funnel

- Where there's something weird going on, I'll watch an aggregate view of people's mouse behaviors - I can then see that a lot of people are hovering between two different buttons, or highlighting a particular sentence

- Based on that feedback, I'll do an A/B test of changing the button textx or the dialogue message

- Capture more data, did that change?

It's not "Let's go look at john smith's website behavior" except in the support example, where you get a user's consent to do that, and you usually only do it for internal corporate applications where there's a dedicated helpdesk.

Re:Hundreds of web firms record 'every keystroke' by cordite on Wednesday November 29, 2017 @08:38AM (#15806605)
Usually if someone complains to support, their session can be tracked down and sent to the devs.
Re:Hundreds of web firms record 'every keystroke' by pmlnr on Wednesday November 29, 2017 @08:40AM (#15806615)
o.O that goes massively against data protection laws.
Re:Hundreds of web firms record 'every keystroke' by cordite on Wednesday November 29, 2017 @11:19AM (#15807950)
Data protection laws? Provide some examples.

Google does this on all of their products. And people that have left Google have made their own versions of this software for others to use. For example: https://www.fullstory.com/

Re:Hundreds of web firms record 'every keystroke' by ashark on Wednesday November 29, 2017 @08:43AM (#15806640)
There are definitely SaaS tools that let you watch a user's session on your site. They stitch together page transitions, show you the mouse cursor moving around, what they type. It's like watching a remote desktop session. Creepy as hell.
Re:Hundreds of web firms record 'every keystroke' by endemic on Wednesday November 29, 2017 @09:00AM (#15806782)
Those are all valid reasons. But what these companies need to do instead is pay consenting users to engage in usability sessions.
Re:Hundreds of web firms record 'every keystroke' by larrik on Wednesday November 29, 2017 @09:27AM (#15806985)
I know plenty of companies would pay a lot for usability sessions if they were remotely accurate (and they do anyway), but they really aren't like regular users using the site naturally.
Re:Hundreds of web firms record 'every keystroke' by rtb on Wednesday November 29, 2017 @10:03AM (#15807268)
Because people don't think they're being watched.

... so it is deceptive to watch them.

Re:Hundreds of web firms record 'every keystroke' by ams6110 on Wednesday November 29, 2017 @08:36AM (#15806594)
That's mostly fine, but it should be clear to me (the user) that it is happening.