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Re:Tesla Semi by njarboe on Friday November 17, 2017 @01:52AM (#15719686)
He states that they have spent a lot of time talking to truckers and truck companies. I would guess they believe that with an electric drive train repairs and maintenance will be an order of magnitude lower (not sure how that works for tires and wheels). Body damage should also be much lower with automatic breaking and other features of enhanced autopilot. As Musk said, broken glass is a big cost for trucking as you can drive with a broken windshield. They think they have a super glass that is "nuclear blast" proof.
Re:Tesla Semi by PinguTS on Friday November 17, 2017 @03:45AM (#15720264)
Over the last centuries there were a number of truck and bus manufacturers who tried the single/middle seat design. It was never a seller for any of those.

If you take someone with you, you don't want to sit him/her to sit behind you. You want them to sit next to you. If you are on the road in the city, you have often colleagues with you, like in a moving company and alike. Such trucks are used in construction work where things damage easily because someone else crashes in your truck. No assistant in your truck will prevent that.

Honestly, it seems they may have talked to some friends or their delivery companies, but not with companies from the industry.

Re:Tesla Semi by dnzm on Friday November 17, 2017 @04:03AM (#15720364)
Could it be that this semi just isn't meant for those in-city hauls, but more for the longer-range highway hauls?
Re:Tesla Semi by celim307 on Friday November 17, 2017 @04:36AM (#15720530)
I would say no because they currently have no sleeper cabin in their design
Re:Tesla Semi by cm2187 on Friday November 17, 2017 @04:48AM (#15720586)
And I don't see where they can hang the traditional playboy calendar.
Re:Tesla Semi by Yetanfou on Friday November 17, 2017 @07:06AM (#15721325)
On one of those big screens of course, even that calendar has to go with the times after all.
Re:Tesla Semi by PinguTS on Friday November 17, 2017 @04:11AM (#15720400)
Because of economics of scale, you design one versatile truck chassis. That can then be easily modified like longer vs. shorter for the super structure, the driver cabin is modified in size so that you have a sleeping possibility or not and all those things.

Just take a look, the very same long haul truck is also used by the construction workers. Only the the cabin is a little bit shorter.

Re:Tesla Semi by eloisant on Friday November 17, 2017 @04:36AM (#15720529)
That's true when you're big already like Iveco or Caterpillar, but when you're trying to enter a new market it makes sense to cater to a specific subset of the market.
Re:Tesla Semi by drusepth on Friday November 17, 2017 @09:51AM (#15722345)
I wouldn't be surprised if the next version included more seats (rearranged towards the cabin center because the driver no longer has to drive), or zero seats (because the driver* no longer has to drive).

Definitely feels like an intentional step towards "don't worry, Tesla will be driving these for you soon anyway".

Re:Tesla Semi by EADGBE on Friday November 17, 2017 @01:35PM (#15724687)
Don't forget the OTR truckers who frequently like to bring a large companion pet with them, too.
Re:Tesla Semi by arghwhat on Friday November 17, 2017 @02:47AM (#15719969)
Tires, wheels, suspension, bearings, steering, brakes and drive axles (one from each electric motor to its wheel) will be the same as a regular truck, maintenance-wise.

The maintenance reduction basically only related to the motor itself. And, supposedly the "nuclear blast proof" windshield. A collision with a deer probably be much, much more expensive compared to a truck with a safari grill or plow mounted for safety.

Re:Tesla Semi by greglindahl on Friday November 17, 2017 @02:53AM (#15720004)
Are you sure brakes go on the list? Regenerative braking uses the motor, not brake pads. The track record of this approach is already proven in cars.
Re:Tesla Semi by PinguTS on Friday November 17, 2017 @03:48AM (#15720278)
Brakes in trucks are already using regenerative braking for about 20 years right now and its called retarder. Because conventional braking is too expansive.
Re:Tesla Semi by exDM69 on Friday November 17, 2017 @04:40AM (#15720555)
I took an interest in this and looked up "retarder" on Wikipedia and it mentions engine braking (and exhaust braking), hydraulic retarders and electric retarders which are eddy current brakes more commonly used in the railways. Which one are you referring to?

According to the article, most commonly these are not used for regenerative braking, the energy is wasted as heat instead.

Eddy current brakes can be used for regenerative braking if there's an electric drive train (and high power electronics to handle it) but more typically the energy is just wasted as heat in a cooled resistor grid.

Mechanical/hydraulic braking can be used to spool up a flywheel and this was used in Formula 1 in late 2000's (now they use electrical regenerative braking instead).

Which of these techniques is commonly used in trucks?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retarder_(mechanical_engineeri...

Re:Tesla Semi by PinguTS on Friday November 17, 2017 @05:11AM (#15720699)
Sorry, for not checking Wikipedia. Because I work in the industry as an electrical engineer defining standards, and owning a historic truck myself just for fun, because I can.

Originally, it is right that retarders were introduced to just having a non-destructive brake by just wasting the energy. That was around the 1980s. This was just to save maintenance cost as brakes were a big part of that costs.

The trucking industry is about costs and every little penny you can safe. So, years ago it started: Why do we waste that energy and do not re-charge the battery with that, because that reduces load from the generator and that will reduces fuel consumption?

Retarders have a huge impact in costs when your are counting miles. Retarders are having the disadvantage you can't brake to full stop with them. That's why they never worked in cars, because they are always additional to conventional brakes. So they add complexity and weight, both of which you want to reduce in cars.

Re:Tesla Semi by neltnerb on Friday November 17, 2017 @11:50AM (#15723601)
What fraction of the energy recovered by braking is actually stored? I would have thought the battery on a non-electric or non-hybrid truck would be far too small. Surely the battery gets topped off and then the extra power is dumped as heat right?

Is the energy from braking really so small that it can't even fully charge the starter battery?

Honest questions. I figured that since regenerative braking in cars seems to double fuel efficiency, that order of half the power used to accelerate was recovered and I would have thought that was a very large amount of power to store.

Or is it because of the nature of long-haul trips? I know hybrids have much less advantage on the highway, maybe for long-haul trips the ratio of energy lost as air friction to energy lost in braking is vastly different.

Re:Tesla Semi by PinguTS on Friday November 17, 2017 @03:28PM (#15725714)
> What fraction of the energy recovered by braking is actually stored? I would have thought the battery on a non-electric or non-hybrid truck would be far too small. Surely the battery gets topped off and then the extra power is dumped as heat right?

It is always the question of what type of truck you are running. Do you just have storage goods, or do you have goods that need refrigeration? In the later you need energy to power that. As your truck does not know in advance what kind of trailer will be towed (connected, what is the right word?) the truck needs to be prepared.

Yes, extra power is dumped. But that is true for any kind of vehicle.

> Or is it because of the nature of long-haul trips? I know hybrids have much less advantage on the highway, maybe for long-haul trips the ratio of energy lost as air friction to energy lost in braking is vastly different.

Actually, Hybrid is very good concept for long-haul. Because on highways you can do coasting (sailing as we say in German) very efficient when you are in cruise control. Because with all the little hills up and down at the same speed, hybrid takes its full advantage.

Re:Tesla Semi by arghwhat on Friday November 17, 2017 @12:12PM (#15723833)
There will always be situations where you can no longer recover energy, fully electric or hybrid. Your battery could be full, or overheating. At that point, you have to waste the energy.

I believe the normal way to handle this scenario is to just fall back to mechanical braking.

Re:Tesla Semi by averagewall on Saturday November 18, 2017 @06:29AM (#15728619)
Why do most/all electric and hybrid cars have regenerative braking while ICE cars don't? It's because, as the GP said, the battery would be quickly topped up and extra energy wasted. Only electric vehicles doing frequent stops/downhills can make productive use of regenerative braking.

Potential energy lost by a truck going 10 m (vertically) downhill: 40 000 kg * g * 10 m = 4e6 J.

Capacity of car starter battery: 40 Ah * 12V = 400 Wh = 1e6 J. Let's guess a truck battery has 4 times the capacity of a car battery, so 4e6 J to full charge.

That's just down one small hill and all subsequent braking energy for the entire trip is wasted.

Re:Tesla Semi by fragmede on Saturday November 18, 2017 @05:07PM (#15730962)
To drive the point home, a Swiss company is working on a mining truck that will be a net generator of electricity - it goes up the mountain empty, but when it goes down it is full of heavy ore, and regenerative breaking charges the batteries more than was used to climb the mountain. The extra 10kWh can then be fed back into the grid.

https://arstechnica.com/cars/2017/09/this-cement-quarry-dump...

Re:Tesla Semi by arghwhat on Tuesday November 21, 2017 @04:24AM (#15746761)
... Also because electric regenerative braking requires a battery and electric motor (for propulsion, the starter is useless for this). Once you fit regenerative braking into an ICE vehicle it becomes a hybrid vehicle, leaving no ICE vehicles with regenerative braking. :)

(I don't think you would call a vehicle with mechanical KERS system a "hybrid", although it technically is as there are multiple propulsion systems in the vehicle.)

Re:Tesla Semi by Cshelton on Friday November 17, 2017 @10:28AM (#15722680)
Do note though that engine braking is banned in many population areas because it is so damn loud!
Re:Tesla Semi by foobarbecue on Friday November 17, 2017 @08:22AM (#15721728)
My 2013 Mitsubishi Outlander Sport has regenerative braking. Seems to work ok but I'm not sure how much it actually helps.
Re:Tesla Semi by greglindahl on Friday November 17, 2017 @12:59PM (#15724279)
Regenerative brakes in an electric car use the engine, and add no weight and no complexity.
Re:Tesla Semi by arghwhat on Friday November 17, 2017 @04:14PM (#15726013)
*motor. Engines are a type of motor that convert heat into mechanical energy (like, say, an internal combustion engine).

(Just being pedantic)

Re:Tesla Semi by woodandsteel on Friday November 17, 2017 @06:23PM (#15726828)
Thank you. I always wondered what was the difference.
Re:Tesla Semi by arghwhat on Friday November 17, 2017 @03:16AM (#15720143)
Ah, sorry, brakes see less wear. I forgot.

Design and maintenance procedure remains the same, maintenance interval drastically increased.

Re:Tesla Semi by AstralStorm on Friday November 17, 2017 @02:56AM (#15720023)
Technically nothing is preventing toy from installing the grille or a plow. Other than range of course and perhaps added cost on top.
Re:Tesla Semi by arghwhat on Friday November 17, 2017 @03:21AM (#15720165)
It all hinges on the accessibility of a sturdy frame that can absurd large impacts.

We won't know until it ships, but the front looks plasticky/crumble-zone-ey, and I'm not sure if Tesla would settle for a simple ladder frame.

Re:Tesla Semi by emacsgifs on Friday November 17, 2017 @05:35AM (#15720823)
I often experience absurd impacts when I crash into reality.
Re:Tesla Semi by Fjolsvith on Friday November 17, 2017 @10:17AM (#15722594)
Need to get yourself a bigger reality catcher on your grill.
Re:Tesla Semi by emacsgifs on Wednesday November 22, 2017 @07:30PM (#15761885)
Since installing airbags the problem has been lessened, but a reality catcher sounds like a great augmentation to my vehicle.
Re:Tesla Semi by einrealist on Friday November 17, 2017 @02:34AM (#15719900)
I wonder about accidents. Will the driver be trapped, because the glass cannot be broken?
Re:Tesla Semi by JshWright on Friday November 17, 2017 @08:30AM (#15721786)
Firefighter here. I wouldn't be especially worried about the glass. Hitting it with a hammer isn't all that impressive (take a hammer to your driver's side window... I bet you'll be surprised how ineffective it is).
Re:Tesla Semi by 0xfeba on Friday November 17, 2017 @01:49PM (#15724810)
But flick a broken spark plug ceramic piece at it, and it falls apart.
Re:Tesla Semi by icebraining on Friday November 17, 2017 @03:15AM (#15720137)
Maybe the side windows are not that strong? Interesting question nonetheless.
Re:Tesla Semi by kamaal on Friday November 17, 2017 @03:40AM (#15720252)
Strong glass doesn't necessary has to be hard to remove glass. Those are two different things.

Pressing a mechanical button or two should easily disassemble the glass gracefully. At the same while the glass is fixed it should ideally be immune to damage.

Re:Tesla Semi by icebraining on Friday November 17, 2017 @07:21AM (#15721390)
Is there a danger that the metal could crumple over the edge of the glass, preventing the removal?
Re:Tesla Semi by danmaz74 on Friday November 17, 2017 @10:01AM (#15722420)
Mechanical buttons have a tendency not to work after big impacts/accidents.
Re:Tesla Semi by tlrobinson on Friday November 17, 2017 @03:36AM (#15720235)
> "nuclear blast" proof

That seems like a meaningless claim without size and distance from the blast.

Re:Tesla Semi by growt on Friday November 17, 2017 @04:25AM (#15720473)
I just noticed the windows on my car are "nuclear blast proof" too. They survived every nuclear blast that happened since I got this car!
Re:Tesla Semi by icc97 on Friday November 17, 2017 @06:43AM (#15721192)
Doesn't really matter, it is just marketing. I guess somewhere through the design phase they did some calculations on how much force it can take and checked it against silly things for Musk to say.

The only point is that it's stronger than normal glass, which is backed up with the video comparing the two different types of glass in a more realistic scenario.

Re:Tesla Semi by bobsil1 on Friday November 17, 2017 @04:42AM (#15720565)
It’s the new “bioweapons-grade cabin air filter”
Re:Tesla Semi by _Codemonkeyism on Friday November 17, 2017 @04:53AM (#15720614)
What does "nuclear blast" mean?

5m to the explosion?

10km to the explosion?

What warhead? 10kt, 10Mt?

Re:Tesla Semi by mnx on Friday November 17, 2017 @06:00AM (#15720949)
It means exactly nothing, and I think that's the point.
Re:Tesla Semi by PhasmaFelis on Friday November 17, 2017 @05:52AM (#15720912)
I assumed it meant "nonspecifically, but impressively, tough."
Re:Tesla Semi by _Codemonkeyism on Friday November 17, 2017 @07:03AM (#15721305)
Like my fist has the power of a supernova explosion?
Re:Tesla Semi by dragontamer on Friday November 17, 2017 @01:07PM (#15724386)
Is your fist's energy not a derivative of the big bang itself? Where did you think your fist got its energy from?

Supernova would be underestimating the power of your fist. Truly think about the history of the energy of your system!

Re:Tesla Semi by _Codemonkeyism on Monday November 20, 2017 @01:11AM (#15738138)
YES!
Re:Tesla Semi by JabavuAdams on Friday November 17, 2017 @08:46AM (#15721882)
Probably a certain amount of over-pressure. Marketing nonsense, though.