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Re:Dell’s gamble on Linux laptops has paid off by pjmlp on Thursday November 16, 2017 @03:52AM (#15711165)
> If you're a developer there's no UX reason to go Windows anymore.

I am a developer serving Windows customers, that rely on native UI/UX for their workflows.

Re:Dell’s gamble on Linux laptops has paid off by dkersten on Thursday November 16, 2017 @04:45AM (#15711397)
Obviously if you're developing primarily for Windows, you're going to need to run Windows. I don't think that's what the person you're replying to meant by that at all, but rather that the Windows UX doesn't buy you, as the user of the OS, anything that Linux doesn't.
Re:Dell’s gamble on Linux laptops has paid off by blntechie on Thursday November 16, 2017 @05:26AM (#15711557)
I never get to see same smoothness in graphics and fonts as MacOS/Windows/ChromeOS in the same machine with Linux.

Every single time I decide that I'm moving to Linux, I give up after living with the browsers for a day or two. Rendering and fonts are just inferior to other systems in my experience.

Re:Dell’s gamble on Linux laptops has paid off by microcolonel on Thursday November 16, 2017 @07:01AM (#15712006)
> I never get to see same smoothness in graphics and fonts as MacOS/Windows/ChromeOS in the same machine with Linux.

Well, Chrome OS runs the same stuff as your average Linux distro, however maybe most distros don't turn on subpixel antialiasing in their FontConfig out of the box. (I don't know because I've been sharing configs between machines of the same distro for about five years).

Re:Dell’s gamble on Linux laptops has paid off by vetinari on Thursday November 16, 2017 @05:41PM (#15717369)
Some distros do not enable subpixel rendering indeed, due to patents and them being based in the US. The users have to download a -freeworld package then, if they want it.

With HiDPI, that doesn't matter anyway.

Another issue are fonts themselves. If you have a document that uses Arial or Cambria or another proprietary font, and you don't have it installed, you are going to get something substituted, which may or may be not metrics-compatible. Do not expect pixel-identical results then.

Re:Dell’s gamble on Linux laptops has paid off by microcolonel on Friday November 17, 2017 @05:52PM (#15726653)
> patents and them being based in the US

If I'm not mistaken, those patents are dead now. Even Fedora has the freeworld stuff now.

> Another issue are fonts themselves. If you have a document that uses Arial or Cambria or another proprietary font, and you don't have it installed, you are going to get something substituted, which may or may be not metrics-compatible. Do not expect pixel-identical results then.

Yeah, though the Chrome OS core fonts are good metric-compatible substitutes for Arial and friends (though lacking the stylistic variety of the core Windows fonts).

Re:Dell’s gamble on Linux laptops has paid off by vetinari on Sunday November 19, 2017 @01:41PM (#15735176)
The bytecode interpreter patents are dead now.

Not the subpixel rendering ones ("cleartype"). In Fedora, FT_CONFIG_OPTION_SUBPIXEL_RENDERING is still disabled.

Google also released metric compatible substitutes for Cambria (Caladea) and Calibri (Carlito), but Linux distributions do not install them by default.

Edit: I'm wrong. In F27, the subpixel rendering is enabled.

Re:Dell’s gamble on Linux laptops has paid off by pjmlp on Thursday November 16, 2017 @07:21AM (#15712108)
ChromeOS uses Chrome own rendering engine, based on Skia.

https://www.chromium.org/blink/slimming-paint

https://www.chromium.org/developers/design-documents/gpu-acc...

Skia can only use what the underlying graphics drivers offer.

Re:Dell’s gamble on Linux laptops has paid off by pjmlp on Thursday November 16, 2017 @04:48AM (#15711415)
Sure it does, proper GPU acceleration, hybrid graphics support and hibernation that actually works, and UI/UX tooling resembling Xerox PARC way of computing, only beaten by macOS.

Not everyone wants to replicate a PDP-11.

Re:Dell’s gamble on Linux laptops has paid off by microcolonel on Thursday November 16, 2017 @07:04AM (#15712025)
> proper GPU acceleration

What GPU is this?

> only beaten by macOS

Well, you said you wanted "proper GPU acceleration", macOS GPU drivers are terrible. They're unstable, they have limp shader compilers, they are CPU-intensive, and in the case of OpenGL, they are behind by nearly six years in terms of features. Today, your sleek MacBook Pro supports considerably fewer modern GPU features than your average entry-level smartphone. You're missing stuff like multi draw indirect, texture clears, 8-bit stencils, image copying, explicit uniform location...

> hibernation that actually works

Well, I have that set up (and in my case it really has to be optional, since I have a really disk-scarce device right now). It worked correctly. I believe systemd will even monitor my battery and hibernate before it gets too low, like you'd expect (though maybe it could be brought out of hibernation enough times in a row to eventually run out of power before systemd gets to it). Maybe there should be a smoother transition between suspend and suspend-to-disk like macs with macOS have, but that isn't strictly necessary.

Re:Dell’s gamble on Linux laptops has paid off by pjmlp on Thursday November 16, 2017 @07:27AM (#15712124)
> What GPU is this?

Any capable of DirectX 12, but only gets OpenGL 4.3 drivers or similar on GNU/Linux.

Or my AMD Brazos one on a Linux netbook, DirectX 11 class, which only gets OpenGL 3.3 drivers.

Regarding OpenGL on macOS, I don't care, that is what rendering engines are for, and all relevant ones already support Metal 2.

Re:Dell’s gamble on Linux laptops has paid off by microcolonel on Thursday November 16, 2017 @07:46AM (#15712214)
> Any capable of DirectX 12, but only gets OpenGL 4.3 drivers or similar on GNU/Linux.

What GPU is this? I don't know of a DX12 device which lacks OpenGL 4.5 support in a stable release of Mesa (or the blob, in the case of NVIDIA, since they are uncooperative with regard to firmware).

> Regarding OpenGL on macOS, I don't care, that is what rendering engines are for, and all relevant ones already support Metal 2.

Sure, if you're running only games, and those that were made before 2012, and after 2017, then that works fine. For an example of something that does not currently use Metal (2 or no 2): any web browser (to my knowledge, including Apple's own, except as a backend for the WebGPU prototype), professional graphics application, or visualization utility. The shader compiler is still subpar, even in Metal.

> Or my AMD Brazos one on a Linux netbook, DirectX 11 class, which only gets OpenGL 3.3 drivers.

IIRC Brazos in that range would be... Radeon HD 6330M, and you're right, that should support GL 4.4. If you're running Mesa from 2016 or later, it should have 4.1 (and most extensions, except compute shaders, up to 4.4), if you run AMD's blob you can probably get 4.4 on it today. Work on drivers for pre-southern-islands devices is slow these days, but anything after SI has full certified OpenGL 4.5 on Mesa along with every extension in in 4.6 except for SPIR-V loading (coming soon), and the performance is better in basically all cases than it is on Windows, or with the proprietary drivers on Linux (though for now you'll need the proprietary drivers for some features like FreeSync, which is unfortunate but oh well).

Re:Dell’s gamble on Linux laptops has paid off by pjmlp on Thursday November 16, 2017 @08:31AM (#15712462)
I was having rendering issues with a NVIDIA Quadro M1200 when I tried it out with a live CD, never bothered to check again.
Re:Dell’s gamble on Linux laptops has paid off by vetinari on Thursday November 16, 2017 @05:36PM (#15717332)
You are not going to find the Nvidia drivers on the live CD.

I assume what you saw was the Nouveau driver, which is enough to have you up and running to be able to download the proprietary ones using GUI.

Re:Dell’s gamble on Linux laptops has paid off by beavis2 on Thursday November 16, 2017 @07:51AM (#15712238)
I find that to be irrelevant for development (except games, of course).

In fact, my graphics card (the cheapest to support Vista) is the only thing I haven't upgraded in the past 5+ years. And it was from eBay, used.

Re:Dell’s gamble on Linux laptops has paid off by pjmlp on Thursday November 16, 2017 @08:33AM (#15712473)
Providing good native UI/UX development is similar to games, specially when using WPF, UWP, Qt,...
Re:Dell’s gamble on Linux laptops has paid off by beavis2 on Thursday November 16, 2017 @08:50AM (#15712566)
I would love to see what you develop.

My graphics card supports the native UI elements of Windows.

My users don't want a "Save as" dialog with life-like water refraction and fog, rendered at higher FPS than their monitor.

Re:Dell’s gamble on Linux laptops has paid off by pjmlp on Thursday November 16, 2017 @11:35AM (#15714019)
Software that adheres to nice designs like Material and Fluent.
Re:Dell’s gamble on Linux laptops has paid off by vetinari on Thursday November 16, 2017 @05:34PM (#15717321)
So basically working vsync, alpha blending, render to texture and some basic shaders like blur, where even Intel GPUs are overkill?

Then you are in luck; even Intel GPUs under Linux do support OpenGL 4.5. 4.6 is in the works, the only missing part is the SPIR-V support and I don't suppose you need that for fluent or material design.

Re:Dell’s gamble on Linux laptops has paid off by zdkl on Thursday November 16, 2017 @05:08AM (#15711495)
Honestly, tooling on windows is in the range [complicated-unusable]. Higher order abstractions and OS specific optimisations just seem to get in the way when I'm developping.

I for one do not feel windows has a good story if you're developping anything you don't use VS for.

Re:Dell’s gamble on Linux laptops has paid off by pjmlp on Thursday November 16, 2017 @06:00AM (#15711737)
I don't feel being stuck with a PDP-11 user model is any better.

A world where GNOME and KDE developers get bashed upon, when trying to bring UI/UX into a modern world.

Re:Dell’s gamble on Linux laptops has paid off by Retric on Thursday November 16, 2017 @05:27AM (#15711559)
I swapped back and forth a few times and Linux worked for all of that stuff 5 years ago. I do .Net development so I tend to stick with windows. But, from a pure user standpoint Linux is more user friendly on compatible hardware.
Re:Dell’s gamble on Linux laptops has paid off by amaranth on Thursday November 16, 2017 @05:07PM (#15717126)
> hybrid graphics support

This works with open source drivers, it's only nvidia that is gumming up the works here. With recent drivers it should even be automatically setup, although you still need to set DRI_PRIME=1 when running something you want on the discrete GPU.

https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/PRIME

Re:Dell’s gamble on Linux laptops has paid off by jenscow on Thursday November 16, 2017 @05:46AM (#15711655)
I develop for Windows, but I use Linux.

I find Windows to be a hindrance (I've used it from v3.1 to 7, so it's nothing to do with unfamiliarity).

Microsoft may be trying to become developer friendly - but their OS certainly is not, and increasingly so.

Re:Dell’s gamble on Linux laptops has paid off by pjmlp on Thursday November 16, 2017 @05:58AM (#15711729)
Some developers enjoy a graphical IDE worlds, keyboard shortcuts + mouse, not everyone feels likes developer == "UNIX user/CLI".
Re:Dell’s gamble on Linux laptops has paid off by dualogy on Thursday November 16, 2017 @07:33AM (#15712147)
> Some developers enjoy a graphical IDE worlds, keyboard shortcuts + mouse

Many devs using Linux do too. Every single one out of many many dozens of Desktop Environment and/or Window Manager combinations let you enjoy all these. Just a matter of familiarity. VS is certainly a neat IDE and always was since I first played with it ~17-18 years ago, but hasn't been the only player in a long time now. Unless you need to use every single feature and tool from its up-to-120GB of installation size (with everything selected) --- never met anyone who does..

Re:Dell’s gamble on Linux laptops has paid off by pjmlp on Thursday November 16, 2017 @07:44AM (#15712200)
Most Linux users are against nice UI/UX provided by GNOME, KDE, Anjuta, KDevelop, GNOME Builder, .... as seen by the complaints and forks.

There is this culture of tiling window managers, vim, Emacs, everything done via CLI and UI/UX is a subject of interest only for dumb users.

Which surfaces as the biggest one among its users.

So anyone that cares about programming pleasant UI/UX workflows, hang with developers that share the same love for it, only has macOS and Windows dev cultures as harbor.

Re:Dell’s gamble on Linux laptops has paid off by plupf on Thursday November 16, 2017 @10:18AM (#15713268)
Many many Linux users are all for nice UIs, and pretty animations. Which is why GNOME, KDE, XFCE, MATE, Cinnamon, Budgie, Pantheon exist in the first place.

The sheer amount, variety and quality of themes available for a typical Linux distro puts your point to rest.

Re:Dell’s gamble on Linux laptops has paid off by pjmlp on Thursday November 16, 2017 @12:39PM (#15714658)
What puts my point to rest is that the only successful Linux based consumer devices, are a web browser based OS and a Java based one, with nothing Linux specific exposed to its users or app developers.
Re:Dell’s gamble on Linux laptops has paid off by jenscow on Thursday November 16, 2017 @06:21AM (#15711824)
IDE vs CLI has nothing to do with it.

Windows isn't the only OS that has a graphical IDE - likewise Bash is available on Windows.

(all of my tools are available on both systems)

Re:Dell’s gamble on Linux laptops has paid off by pjmlp on Thursday November 16, 2017 @07:29AM (#15712133)
> IDE vs CLI has nothing to do with it.

Sure it has, because it springs from the developer culture on each OS, and the main reason why good UI/UX research is so hard on GNU/Linux systems.

It is always an uphill battle, as GNOME and KDE devs know about.

Also note that I pair macOS with Windows on my list.

Re:Dell’s gamble on Linux laptops has paid off by jenscow on Thursday November 16, 2017 @11:13AM (#15713793)
Same could be said against Windows. Ever used Windows 8? "Everyone" hated it.

Windows 10 has gone for the hybrid UI; both "modern" and traditional. At the same time.

I'm not sure why you say it's hard for UI/UX research on Linux, when there are so many different desktop environments and toolkits - all(?) of which are theme-able. On Windows, you're stuck with one. Well, both.

Re:Dell’s gamble on Linux laptops has paid off by pjmlp on Thursday November 16, 2017 @12:05PM (#15714340)
Which is exactly the point of lack of good polished UI/UX on GNU/Linux.

Hence ChromeOS and Android in what concerns consumer devices, where Linux just happens to be the chosen kernel but nothing prevents Google changing it for something else.

Re:Dell’s gamble on Linux laptops has paid off by Const-me on Thursday November 16, 2017 @06:25AM (#15711841)
I develop for both, but I use Windows.

Until there're Adobe Photoshop & Illustrator for Linux, no professional UI development is possible on that OS.

Re:Dell’s gamble on Linux laptops has paid off by teisman on Thursday November 16, 2017 @06:55AM (#15711977)
I use Linux, despite the absence of these essential tools. In my ideal world software vendors would start supporting Linux, and this is why I created SoftwareOnLinux.com - to create pressure groups and give vendors insights in the demand for their software on Linux. Would be cool if you'd show demand for Photoshop through this page: https://www.softwareonlinux.com/programs/8-adobe-photoshop
Re:Dell’s gamble on Linux laptops has paid off by dotancohen on Thursday November 16, 2017 @07:37AM (#15712167)
I cannot sign up, I'm getting this error on submitting the sign up form: ": The response parameter is missing."

Firefox 57, CentOS 7.3 desktop

Re:Dell’s gamble on Linux laptops has paid off by beavis2 on Thursday November 16, 2017 @08:04AM (#15712315)
> no professional UI development is possible

In your opinion.

I'm a professional. My skills relate to the domain/subject, not a specific software package/language/library. I'm able to transfer my skills and learn+use alternatives - and co-operate with those who aren't.

YMMV.

Re:Dell’s gamble on Linux laptops has paid off by baldfat on Thursday November 16, 2017 @08:01AM (#15712291)
> Until there're Adobe Photoshop & Illustrator for Linux

There are plenty of great tools that really doesn't require these overly priced tools.

Re:Dell’s gamble on Linux laptops has paid off by Const-me on Thursday November 16, 2017 @08:52AM (#15712578)
I’m not a designer, I’m a programmer, I mostly use these to export to something else, and do some minor adjustments. But on input, I always getting .psd (raster) or .ai (vector) files, created by professionals.

I’ve been developing software for 17 years, and this always was the case, regardless on the industry (desktop software, embedded, videogames), regardless on target platform (PC, mobile, embedded win or linux, game consoles).

I know there’re other good tools, but I’m not in the position to force everyone else to stop using Adobe.

Re:Dell’s gamble on Linux laptops has paid off by jenscow on Thursday November 16, 2017 @10:58AM (#15713682)
Yet you're fine with others forcing you.

I don't use anything Adobe, yet I don't remember having a problem opening such files (regardless of OS).

If so, I'm not afraid to respond with "Hey, can you export/save as in <some other format>?". It's not like I, a developer, am going to be making changes to the file and send it back - let alone pay for a product with which to open it.

I wouldn't give them a .c file.

Re:Dell’s gamble on Linux laptops has paid off by baldfat on Thursday November 16, 2017 @11:22AM (#15713861)
The issue has nothing to do with file formats, but work flow. Use different tools to use with the file format. I would personally use every cli program I can get my hands on and just convert them on my machine.

Personally I just make scripts and view the output file to check for quality. I use ImageMagick mostly but Gimp and Inkscape also have command line interface.

Gimp - https://www.gimp.org/man/gimp.html

Inkscape - https://inkscape.org/sk/doc/inkscape-man.html

Re:Dell’s gamble on Linux laptops has paid off by baldfat on Thursday November 16, 2017 @10:14AM (#15713225)
use inkscape for .ai or Gimp or Krita for .psd

To export just use a cli program and batch that process.

Imagemagick to convert psd to png `convert file.psd[0] file.png`

Imagemagick to convert ai to png `convert test.ai -channel rgba -alpha on test.png`

Re:Dell’s gamble on Linux laptops has paid off by Accacin on Thursday November 16, 2017 @11:12AM (#15713789)
Well, I'm glad that I refuse to let a single company determine my life.