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Re:A/B test of banner ads vs. traffic by katzgrau on Sunday November 12, 2017 @12:23PM (#15681575)
As someone who has founded and runs an adserver for a living (we deal only with legitimate publications, nothing sketchy), I found this thought provoking.

Since I deal mostly in niche/local advertising, I might have a unique perspective. It turns out that the more relatable a banner ad is, the less offended the reader is.

That may sound obvious, and it probably is. But the general effect is that users engage with and are sometimes genuinely interested in banner ads for their favorite restaurants, venues, and other spots. Local and niche advertisers are part of the community. A Ford or Chevy ad is generally much less relatable.

So my overall point is that the nature of the publication and its advertising clients is going to impact whether some readers are turned off - so it's difficult to derive a rule of thumb for banner advertising as a whole.

Re:A/B test of banner ads vs. traffic by hanbura on Sunday November 12, 2017 @12:54PM (#15681732)
I think a most of the problems with ads are just caused by how Google and other big players run online advertising.

Somewhere along the way "let's add an image of some company our readers might be interested in" turned into "let's serve a huge Javascript that perceivably slows the browser in order to serve an ad from the highest bidder who might or might not run a criminal enterprise. Also make sure the ads show off the vast amounts of data we collect, we have to appear as creepy as possible".

Small ad networks or sites that organize their adverts themselves sometimes have great ads. But I am not sure if the reputation of online ads isn't already damaged beyond repair.

Add to that the small revenue from ads (the author makes $30/month from ads and $700/month from patreon)

Re:A/B test of banner ads vs. traffic by bartread on Sunday November 12, 2017 @06:02PM (#15683049)
^^^This.

I run Adsense on https://arcade.ly. The pages are heavy anyway because they implement games, and much of the payload is music and, to a lesser extent, sound effects. As an experiment I tried loading the pages without music and was nothing short of appalled by the amount of crap Adsense downloads.

Thing is, it's not Adsense itself that's the problem: it's the adverts themselves and the lack of control/moderation Google chooses to exert over ad providers. They serve up tons - I mean really a lot - of JavaScript, which tries to track you in N different ways, all so they can display a hyperlinked image with the most basic of animations and mouse over effects. This payload, often running to well over 1MB, measurably slows load and execution performance on the page.

The creepiness infuriates me, but it's the overall shittiness of the development practice that produces so much bloat for so little value I find most offensive. I mean these people go in to work, half-ass throwing together a bunch of code and assets in the worst way imaginable, and then carelessly spooge their effluent all over the web... and then they have the audacity to start whingeing about people running ad-blockers. What do they expect?

My site gets next to no traffic at the moment but if/when it's grown a bit I'm going to start looking at non-ad ways to earn money from it. I'm even considering ditching them at the moment to see if that might help grown traffic in itself.

Re:A/B test of banner ads vs. traffic by prawn on Monday November 13, 2017 @01:24AM (#15684678)
I don't remember it being like this before they tied it in with DoubleClick?
Re:A/B test of banner ads vs. traffic by majani on Sunday November 12, 2017 @01:03PM (#15681781)
This is the biggest problem I have with Adsense. Most of the time it seems like they couldn't find an ad that fits me but their system decided to just throw me a random ad for Forex Trading or whatever. This turns their supposedly sophisticated ad system into a random generator as far as I'm concerned.

They could fix this by:

1. Just showing blanks if they can't get something targeted to my preferences

2. Not allowing advertisers to be too general in their targeting if they are doing performance campaigns(CPC and CPA). Only allow CPM advertisers to target broad categories.

Re:A/B test of banner ads vs. traffic by huac on Sunday November 12, 2017 @01:55PM (#15682015)
Your concerns are typically addressed by:

1. Reserve pricing - if no ad is 'good enough', e.g. no advertiser is willing to bid above a certain threshold for you, then no ad is shown

2. ePCM pricing - Adsense predicts what the likelihood of clickthrough/conversion is for a given ad and user, and includes that in its auction algorithm. Roughly, eCPM bid = cost per click / probability of click. This addresses the typical problem of high CPC/CPA bid but low engagement probability ads crowding out otherwise good CPM-based ads.

In general responsible advertisers have aligned incentives with viewers. Intrusive or obnoxious (or malicious) advertisements hurt viewers, who are less likely to return.

Re:A/B test of banner ads vs. traffic by emn13 on Sunday November 12, 2017 @02:18PM (#15682122)
I think a high reserve price is actually a really neat idea - you'd think that might have the knock-on consequence of reducing the attractiveness of adblockers, and furthermore of reducing viewer fatigue (so that the ads you do show have more impact). If you're smart enough, and take into account the "damage" to your relationship with the viewer when choosing an ad (i.e. aiming primarily for the ad the viewer is most likely to appreciate, and only secondarily other effects such as how likely they are to click and how much the advertiser is willing to pay), you might even be able to make ads the viewer actually wants to see; which in the long run is probably a very good place to be.

I wonder if part of the reason that never happened is simply that ads are in a sense "reserved" layout space that need to be filled consistently and cannot be filled later on (due to layout jumpiness).

Re:A/B test of banner ads vs. traffic by bertil on Sunday November 12, 2017 @04:50PM (#15682813)
I wish I had a better way to tell Google to raise my reservation price than blocking most ads I see, maybe pay for a higher one?
Re:A/B test of banner ads vs. traffic by init-as on Sunday November 12, 2017 @01:24PM (#15681878)
I just wanted to say that it’s actually nice not to be the only one who is harassed by forex trading ads around the web. Them and Mobile Strike are pretty much all of the ads I see. (I do have Adblock but can’t block for YouTube mobile etc.)
Re:A/B test of banner ads vs. traffic by def_true_false on Sunday November 12, 2017 @07:39PM (#15683413)
There are other apps for youtube. E.g. newpipe.
Re:A/B test of banner ads vs. traffic by badrabbit on Sunday November 12, 2017 @01:25PM (#15681884)
As a user,I am most offended by ads that target me. I would rather see a completely unrelatable ad. It feels like learning new information that way,as opposed to being stalked and preyed upon.
Re:A/B test of banner ads vs. traffic by tikhonj on Sunday November 12, 2017 @01:50PM (#15682001)
The other option is to target the ads to the publication. As long as the publication is on a niche topic or geographically localized, you can choose ads that will likely interest people (local restaurants) without needing to track them. Tracking is only necessary when the ad venue is incredibly broad across topics and geography.
Re:A/B test of banner ads vs. traffic by FridgeSeal on Sunday November 12, 2017 @06:01PM (#15683045)
As someone who used to work trafficking ads and spends a lot of time blocking them myself, I'm of the opinion that this is the approach to take.

ReadTheDocs and sites like BikeRadar are my favourite examples: If I go to a bike site, I expect the ads I see to be about bike stuff. If I'm on a technical site (like Stack Overflow or ReadTheDocs) I expect to see ads about related technical topics.

Unfortunately the advertising industry has gone down the route of hyper-invasive, user-data focused advertising, for what I consider to be very little benefit to either publishers or users. The only people who benefit are those who pedal the tech that enables this market.

With all the ML tools available to us now, I'm not sure why we couldn't build tools that accurately match ad content to site content. You don't need to invasively track users users this way either, because you only ever need to be concerned with the topic of the site/article and not who's seeing it.

Re:A/B test of banner ads vs. traffic by techdragon on Monday November 13, 2017 @01:50AM (#15684752)
We could build these things, but part of the "advertising host" optimisation metrics is "time to ad display" so the algorithms in use are frequently "deliberately dumb" for reasons of optimising the time involved in deciding what advertising should be displayed.
Re:A/B test of banner ads vs. traffic by sdenton4 on Monday November 13, 2017 @04:26AM (#15685314)
Somehow, televisions had the miraculous ability to display content-targeted ads with no user knowledge and zero latency...

It's much easier to target the publication than the individual user.

Re:A/B test of banner ads vs. traffic by FridgeSeal on Wednesday November 15, 2017 @08:09PM (#15709525)
Web pages are far more static than users, your adserver/ML/analysis tool need only analyse the page once (not including updates for content changes) and then pass this information straight on to ad buyers.

Even if advertisers analysed the page content on seeing it, rather than the publisher, it would still be net faster than doing lookups/analysis per adserve (as you would when you target a user).

I don't think it would be hard at all to build something which analysed a page and made an adserving decision with a lower "time to ad display" than a similar process that used user data.

Re:A/B test of banner ads vs. traffic by Feniks on Sunday November 12, 2017 @03:47PM (#15682550)
That's how old media has been doing it for centuries. But media is hard: you have to invest in personal relations with advertisers.

New media just outsources all the hard work to Google and other big ad placers. Easier but you lose editorial control over your work.

Re:A/B test of banner ads vs. traffic by dredmorbius on Sunday November 12, 2017 @09:08PM (#15683738)
More like "for about 150 years".

Advertising, in the modern sense, is, well, modern. You pretty much simply did not have goods to advertise (or the means to advertise them) other than for very specific items -- think classifieds rather than bulk and mass advertising.

The rise of the factory system, of transport networks, and the capacity to create far more of a good than local demand could absorb created the first modern-style advertising in about 1860. The first prominently-featured adverts were the 19th century equivalents of Viagra ads: mostly-ineffective patent medicines.

Hamilton Holt has a delightful contemporary account of this, written (and presented as a lecture, it's short) in 1909, looking back on the previous 50 years or so of publishing history. I cannot recommend it highly enough.

https://archive.org/stream/commercialismjou00holtuoft#page/2...

Re:A/B test of banner ads vs. traffic by ar0 on Sunday November 12, 2017 @04:00PM (#15682611)
In fact, that’s how Google started out with AdSense as well: It was called “content targeting advertising”, because Google scanned your webpage and then served ads that related to the content of your webpage.

I don’t know what happened along the road to lead us to the current tracking and spying mess.

Re:A/B test of banner ads vs. traffic by shostack on Sunday November 12, 2017 @05:57PM (#15683029)
What happened is the ad landscape shifted from targeting placements and content to targeting audiences and where they are in their journey to purchase. It simply performs better for advertisers and it's often more scalable. In turn, this makes the platform more money because sites that may have low value inventory can suddenly be sold for higher CPMs if an advertiser for example wants to bid on their retargeting data in the auction. It let's them price based on people.
Re:A/B test of banner ads vs. traffic by badrabbit on Sunday November 12, 2017 @02:09PM (#15682082)
I have been wondering why that isn't done more often myself. I mean,it isn't like tv ads didn't work.
Re:A/B test of banner ads vs. traffic by antonvs on Sunday November 12, 2017 @02:29PM (#15682180)
Advertising is very much beset by the mindset of being "so preoccupied with whether or not they could that they didn't stop to think if they should" (Jurassic Park.)

Tracking and microtargeting just seem too attractive for advertisers to pass up. Same goes for large size, autoplay, multimedia ads.

These mechanisms would have to fail to perform in obvious ways (not long-term, subtle, whole-market ways) before people will stop using them.

Re:A/B test of banner ads vs. traffic by bertil on Sunday November 12, 2017 @04:57PM (#15682846)
I do not know you, so I won’t presume (certainly not on HackerNews, the least representative sample of the Internet) but I have seen many experiments proving that most people who think they don’t like targetted ads actually prefer them -- until they make a very informed but very wrong guess. Typical examples include:

- advertising for something shameful (underwear and dildo are my go-to examples) or that you otherwise want be kept secret (engagement rings);

- repeat ads for specific and unusual big-ticket items. I have told friends working at Amazon that no one I know ever started a vacuum cleaner collection, but they only response is “You would be surprised…” to which I can only assume the world is either weirder than I thought, or their analytics function has missed something.

What you (and most people) probably would prefer is the ability to edit what the ad engine knows or assumes about you: gone are dildos, rings and vacuum cleaners; come books about programming patterns!

I keep telling anyone close to any of those recommendation engines to allow me to do that, but they mumble things about design, feasibility and hacking that genuinely don’t add up to me.

Re:A/B test of banner ads vs. traffic by badrabbit on Tuesday November 14, 2017 @12:04PM (#15696862)
Not true,sure I would prefer programming related ads but I still want it page-relevant and not based on my browsing history,habits or sensor data.
Re:A/B test of banner ads vs. traffic by kzrdude on Sunday November 12, 2017 @01:49PM (#15681994)
I would love to see more ads that instead target the content of the page. When I'm reading about machine learning, it should be books close to that topic, and other related things. I can't believe little that happens.
Re:A/B test of banner ads vs. traffic by pault on Sunday November 12, 2017 @04:41PM (#15682773)
It has the added benefit of having a high probability that you'll be interested in the product, since you wouldn't be on the page if you didn't find the topic interesting. Instead we get tracking networks showing you ads for TVs because you bought a TV last week.
Re:A/B test of banner ads vs. traffic by human on Sunday November 12, 2017 @05:05PM (#15682878)
I think the problem with that is that most browsing is done on pages that do not target a valuable topic: news, weather, memes, etc.

For that reason, it's better to remind you about that Amazon product still in your cart while you're browsing for random stuff.

Re:A/B test of banner ads vs. traffic by spc476 on Sunday November 12, 2017 @06:33PM (#15683161)
I used to to that with Amazon. About a decade ago, I added an Amazon banner, and the link included a search term. So I would add an appropriate search term (related to the top blog entry on the page, which is where the Amazon banner appeared). Sometime in the past few months, Amazon removed that and only allows generic sales banners to be presented.
Re:A/B test of banner ads vs. traffic by majewsky on Sunday November 12, 2017 @02:06PM (#15682071)
Considering the sprawl of sponsored content, maybe because it's cheaper/easier to just buy the author?
Re:A/B test of banner ads vs. traffic by AJ007 on Sunday November 12, 2017 @12:56PM (#15681744)
The other side to this is users see the ads, relate to the ads, click the ads, and thus leave your site. Your pageviews will drop.

Whether or not one agrees with the outcome, if you have a large site you definitely should be doing independent testing. Google's ad reps, much less reps from other networks, will tell you to do things that harm your site.

Re:A/B test of banner ads vs. traffic by katzgrau on Monday November 13, 2017 @04:09PM (#15690271)
Well, most ads open in a new window. And most serious publishers barely have the resources to survive let alone do A/B testing. The publishers I work with thankfully shy away from network advertising and only deal with clients they have a direct relationship with. Regardless, it really isn't easy or very lucrative running a digital content based business. There are outliers, sure, but the long tail paints a much different story in my experience.
Re:A/B test of banner ads vs. traffic by smsm42 on Sunday November 12, 2017 @04:07PM (#15682630)
> It turns out that the more relatable a banner ad is, the less offended the reader is.

This is of course true, and kinda obvious, but I am not sure this is workable as business model. I mean, here are not a lot of ads that are immediately relevant for me. Maybe once or twice per month there's something that I buy that ad could sway my decision at least potentially (i.e. expose me to some provider I wasn't aware of, or some brand I haven't considered). The rest is basically wasted on me. How much 2 clicks per month (with unknown conversion rate) are worth to advertisers? I have no idea, but I wonder whether it is possible to support a site on that revenue?

I, of course, could be wildly atypical case (for one, I use adblockers and rarely impulse-buy) and maybe typical visitor would be much more engaged with ads.

Or it could be that ad buyer industry (not ones that make the ads, but ones that order them - Fords and Chevys of the world) do not have proper tools to see how effective their ads are and just throw a chunk of budget to the wind, get some traffic from it and feel good about it.

Re:A/B test of banner ads vs. traffic by katzgrau on Monday November 13, 2017 @04:13PM (#15690301)
It's true — but advertising has two sides. You can of course be running a campaign that you're hoping for immediate ROI on, like a flash sale. In that case, you really want clicks and some sort of immediate indicator that the campaign is working, like conversions.

But sometimes as a business owner you're also campaigning for visibility / mindshare. At the minimum you want to distribute a message and let people know you exist. That's why people still buy billboards. It's a type of advertising that will probably never go away - especially because it's relatively low cost to implement for all sides - just need a designer to create the ad and you're good to go.

It doesn't seem like the most dependable business model but it's pretty timeless even in the digital age. The advertiser has an ego and instinct and is ultimately going to buy what they feel is going to work for their business.

Re:A/B test of banner ads vs. traffic by stemuk on Sunday November 12, 2017 @12:40PM (#15681667)
Maybe a site like gwern.net is generally less suited for A/B experiments like that because of the unique look and speed 'HTML only' sites have. Sites like cnn.com or yahoo.com are generally much more crowded and colorful, so banner ads blend in much better. This might in return result in a higher user acceptance rate for banner ads and probably a different engagement rate too.
Re:A/B test of banner ads vs. traffic by Terr_ on Sunday November 12, 2017 @12:32PM (#15681623)
I imagine the worst advertising is where it feels both unfeelingly-impersonal yet also spyingly-specific.
Re:A/B test of banner ads vs. traffic by HugThem on Sunday November 12, 2017 @12:48PM (#15681710)
Where do your ads appear? On your site I do not see a publisher signup page.