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Re:Bitcoin mining heats homes for free in Siberia [video] by wlesieutre on Friday November 03, 2017 @12:17PM (#15620298)
Didn't watch the video, but a quick point on how the energy efficiency of this works out:

Electric heaters are 100% efficient at turning electrical energy into heat. All the energy they take in, that's where it goes.

Bitcoin mining (and computers in general) are basically in the same boat. There's some ancillary energy use for blowing air around or shining lights or making sound waves, but for the most part the electricity turns into heat and does some math along the way.

Sounds great! Perfectly efficient! But the important caveat is that heat pumps are (effectively) more than 100% efficient. They can take 100 watt of electricity to transfer 300 watts of heat from outside to inside.

It's not technically a measure of "efficiency", we call this the "coefficient of performance" instead. Or we call it the "seasonal energy efficiency ratio", which is the same thing except multiplied by some constant factor because somebody wanted a scale that went up to higher numbers. Or for heating, the heating season performance factor, which I forget the specifics of, but is geared toward how well it works pumping heat in from outdoors when your heat source (outdoors) is very cold.

In short, it's just as efficient as any other electric heater, but heat pumps are 3-4x better than that.

Re:Bitcoin mining heats homes for free in Siberia [video] by DINKDINK on Friday November 03, 2017 @12:32PM (#15620405)
>heat pumps are (effectively) more than 100% efficient

The CoP of a heat pump is greatly dependent on the difference in temperature potential of the source and sink. If it's extremely cold outside, it's very hard to pump heat from colder air into a house. When the temperature potential between the two reservoirs is equal, sure the CoP beats out electric heating but when it's high (When your house is warm and the outside is below freezing) its extremely poor.

http://alliedthermaldesigns.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/T...

Re:Bitcoin mining heats homes for free in Siberia [video] by maxerickson on Friday November 03, 2017 @01:32PM (#15620841)
Your link is for Peltier coolers.

This government study of an air source heat pump maintained a real world COP of ~3 in Connecticut:

https://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy13osti/56393.pdf

It would be pretty bad to design a heat pump that dropped much below 1, better to just install a big resistive element.

Re:Bitcoin mining heats homes for free in Siberia [video] by DINKDINK on Sunday November 05, 2017 @02:23PM (#15631060)
Cool data. Appears the CoP vs outdoor temp plots are on page 14. Since the data doesn't provide temperature delta between the source and sink, you'd need to assume that the pump met the heat delivery requirements.
Re:Bitcoin mining heats homes for free in Siberia [video] by wlesieutre on Friday November 03, 2017 @12:47PM (#15620518)
Very true for air source heat pumps. Ground source is still an option for colder areas, but that's a much more involved installation.
Re:Bitcoin mining heats homes for free in Siberia [video] by TedLePoireau on Friday November 03, 2017 @06:09PM (#15622501)
This is what we are doing at Qarnot Computing for 5years. We created a heater using CPU as a heat source. People send a docker image (3d rendering, financial analysis...) and we run it on heaters deployed in buildings in Paris where people are heated for free (we refund the electricity cost)

https://computing.qarnot.com https://www.qarnot.com/faq/

Disclosure: I work there :)

Re:Bitcoin mining heats homes for free in Siberia [video] by Faaak on Friday November 03, 2017 @07:53PM (#15623040)
Love the idea ! I would love to work with you if I didn't have a nice project in the same time.

Small error in the FAQ though: "kW/h" ;-)

Re:Bitcoin mining heats homes for free in Siberia [video] by TedLePoireau on Friday November 03, 2017 @08:54PM (#15623245)
I'll make sure this is fixed on Monday ! Thank you :)
Re:Bitcoin mining heats homes for free in Siberia [video] by aoner on Friday November 03, 2017 @10:39PM (#15623522)
Why don't you use boilers? That way you can use the heating year round.
Re:Bitcoin mining heats homes for free in Siberia [video] by andbberger on Friday November 03, 2017 @03:03PM (#15621516)
This is silly, CPUs are 100% efficient at converting electrical energy into heat. Where do you think that 'ancillary energy' is going?

Obviously heat pumps are more efficient - that's kinda beside the point though.

The main point here is you can take anywhere you had a resistive heating element and replace it with a mining chip, and you're now doing something useful with that energy you were turning into heat anyway.

Yes heat pumps are more efficient but there are plenty of places in your house you have plain old heat elements that aren't going away (water heater).

Re:Bitcoin mining heats homes for free in Siberia [video] by wlesieutre on Friday November 03, 2017 @04:32PM (#15622018)
>Obviously heat pumps are more efficient - that's kinda beside the point though.

Only obvious if you know what a heat pump is!

Plenty of people will hear "Electrical heating is 100% efficient" and interpret that to mean it's the ideal solution, when in a lot of cases it's just about the worst.

But yes, if you have electrical heating, you could throw in some CPUs or ASICs instead and they'll work just as well. The return on investment for cryptocurrency may drop off a cliff when the next silicon process comes out and mines more for the same energy, it's hard to see people wanting to keep upgrading their baseboard heaters on the same cycle that computers get replaced.

Whether it's money positive vs resistive heating will depend on A) price of your electronics relative to a cheap electric heater, B) how it stacks up vs future electronics if the payoff doesn't happen while it's new, and C) how insane the cryptocurrency markets get.

Re:Bitcoin mining heats homes for free in Siberia [video] by mark-r on Friday November 03, 2017 @08:36PM (#15623184)
At $430/month for the bitcoins, I think they can afford to keep the systems current. Obviously market conditions can change drastically, but they're just as likely to go up as down.
Re:Bitcoin mining heats homes for free in Siberia [video] by dragonwriter on Friday November 03, 2017 @04:44PM (#15622080)
> Whether it's money positive vs resistive heating

Strictly speaking, isn't it just a special case of resistive heating?

Re:Bitcoin mining heats homes for free in Siberia [video] by khedoros1 on Friday November 03, 2017 @05:14PM (#15622247)
It's resistive heating that does something that most resistive heating doesn't do: generate some level of additional income in the form of cryptocurrency.
Re:Bitcoin mining heats homes for free in Siberia [video] by Retric on Friday November 03, 2017 @07:12PM (#15622847)
Only if you need full power heat 24/7 365. If you ever want to turn it off then it's costing you deprecation on very expensive hardware, vs a simple heating element.

Remember, few things need constant heat output 24/7 365, otherwise your going to want to generate some or all of your heat from other sources.

Re:Bitcoin mining heats homes for free in Siberia [video] by mark-r on Friday November 03, 2017 @08:38PM (#15623194)
That's the brilliant part - doing it in Siberia where the heat is almost always welcome. Iceland might be good too.
Re:Bitcoin mining heats homes for free in Siberia [video] by Retric on Saturday November 04, 2017 @05:55AM (#15624385)
Siberia gets warm in the summer as in it can hit 100+f, and you need a lot of insulation minimal heating even at 50f. So, not really.
Re:Bitcoin mining heats homes for free in Siberia [video] by Retric on Friday November 03, 2017 @03:43PM (#15621751)
CPU's can't tolerate high temperatures so it only works for a small subset of things you need a heating element for.

Aka, you can uses them to cook with. Also, while you can use electricity to heat water it's vastly more efficient to burn natural gas to make heat than burn natural gas to make electricity to make it, ditto solar power etc.

Re:Bitcoin mining heats homes for free in Siberia [video] by adrianmonk on Friday November 03, 2017 @04:22PM (#15621959)
Actually, heat pump water heaters are a thing. They are also called "hybrid" water heaters.

They cost more money, but Consumer Reports says "payback time is short" (see https://www.consumerreports.org/cro/water-heaters/buying-gui... ).

They probably don't make as much sense in cold climates, but where I live, air conditioning in the summer (and spring and fall) dwarfs the energy usage from heating in the winter. So a device that makes it colder on average indoors would be a net win even if it didn't have the function of heating your water.

Re:Bitcoin mining heats homes for free in Siberia [video] by yourapostasy on Friday November 03, 2017 @05:35PM (#15622352)
When I looked into these units, the potential repair costs over time led me to choose a highly insulated electric (Rheem Marathon series). The major parts like the compressor were not available through Grainger or even an HVAC supply store, nor could I get my hands on a retail parts price list. So I had concerns over vendor lock-in, and the initial capital premium would get vastly inflated in opex costs over time.

Has anyone had 7+ years experience with these, and if so, can you please share your ownership experience and the model & brand you used?

Re:Bitcoin mining heats homes for free in Siberia [video] by dqpb on Friday November 03, 2017 @04:29PM (#15621998)
and you're now doing something useful with that energy you were turning into heat anyway.

Is it useful? My (limited) understanding is that most of the work is just arbitrarily difficult number guessing for the sole purpose of being throttled...

Re:Bitcoin mining heats homes for free in Siberia [video] by maxerickson on Friday November 03, 2017 @04:39PM (#15622053)
It's useful if you like money and the setup using the mining rig has a lower net cost than other heating.
Re:Bitcoin mining heats homes for free in Siberia [video] by kobeya on Friday November 03, 2017 @08:12PM (#15623097)
It's useful because it's useless. Different definitions of "useful" at play there. Proof of work is by design unable to do anything other than provide a probabilistic proof of energy expenditure, but such proofs are themselves useful.
Re:Bitcoin mining heats homes for free in Siberia [video] by mrfusion on Friday November 03, 2017 @12:27PM (#15620378)
To be fair a heat pump probably wouldn’t work in Siberia with such low temperatures.

Most heat pumps are no good below 20f.

Re:Bitcoin mining heats homes for free in Siberia [video] by wlesieutre on Friday November 03, 2017 @12:43PM (#15620485)
That's true, I'm speaking more generally about bitcoin mining for heat, but it may make more sense in Siberia if electric heaters are the dominant heating method.

There are other reasons electrical heating isn't great, heat pumps aside. An average coal plant (in the US in 2015, I'm using EIA numbers) was about 34% efficient in turning the energy in coal into electricity. Then you lose about 5% of that in transmission, so from the heat released by burning coal you're only getting 32% of that as electricity at your house. Converting 100% of that into heat is pretty unimpressive in the big picture, you'd get 3x more heat by buying some coal and setting it on fire.

Obviously you can't do that, but a high efficiency gas-fired furnace will get 90%-98% of the combustion heat into your ducts, with the much smaller remainder going up the chimney. Unless you're on solar power (or some other renewable), burning fossil fuels on-site does better than resistive electric heating.

Of course that may also not apply to Siberia. If the ground is frozen all the time it's harder to run gas lines compared to putting in an electric grid. Mostly I'm trying to dissuade anyone in most of the US from stocking up on mining machines thinking it'll be a great heating system.

Re:Bitcoin mining heats homes for free in Siberia [video] by reaperducer on Friday November 03, 2017 @02:55PM (#15621464)
> Obviously you can't do that

Actually, you can. I know a few people in Pennsylvania, West Virginia, and upstate New York who use coal stoves to heat their homes.

Re:Bitcoin mining heats homes for free in Siberia [video] by wlesieutre on Monday November 06, 2017 @10:31AM (#15636147)
You can burn coal, yes, but once you add a chimney you're not getting 100% of the heat like you would by building a fire on your living room floor. It's an energy tradeoff vs dying of carbon monoxide poisoning. And I assume they're worse pollution-wise than a power plant.

I'm not sure what the efficiency on those is today. Article from 1980 [1] mentions 74% for a good quality stove, it's possible they've improved, but I doubt there's been as much development work on coal burning stoves as there has for gas fired furnaces.

[1] https://www.csmonitor.com/1980/1112/111256.html

Re:Bitcoin mining heats homes for free in Siberia [video] by wallace_f on Friday November 03, 2017 @12:57PM (#15620588)
That's pretty reasonable, but let's get really serious--You can be more efficient than that. This winter I may buy a bicycle-electric generator, an inverter, and use it to power my laptop to mine bitcoins. This heating beats a mere 98% gas heater by capturing generated heat most efficiently: Directly inside my body. The remaining kinetic and electric energy heats my house. And since I need to lose weight anyways, the cost of electricity is less than zero. Infinite efficiency!

I can't wait to get rich and be warm this winter.

Re:Bitcoin mining heats homes for free in Siberia [video] by adrianN on Saturday November 04, 2017 @01:12AM (#15623904)
You're doing it for weight loss, so the following is not interesting to you, but maybe other people think that bicycle generators are a good idea for generating electricity. They're not: http://www.lowtechmagazine.com/2011/05/bike-powered-electric...
Re:Bitcoin mining heats homes for free in Siberia [video] by wallace_f on Saturday November 04, 2017 @01:59AM (#15623996)
Which is exactly why transistors were a bad idea. We need mechanical-powered bitcoin miners.

I was actually just being tongue-in-cheek from the get-go.

Re:Bitcoin mining heats homes for free in Siberia [video] by jaggederest on Friday November 03, 2017 @02:57PM (#15621480)
Ah, but the total efficiency of getting and consuming calories is quite poor. Unless you eat coal, in which case it's probably other problems that are primary.
Re:Bitcoin mining heats homes for free in Siberia [video] by ph0rque on Friday November 03, 2017 @01:34PM (#15620864)
How many miles cycled = one bitcoin mined?
Re:Bitcoin mining heats homes for free in Siberia [video] by wallace_f on Friday November 03, 2017 @02:17PM (#15621192)
I don't know, but according to this reddit post(1), I could hope to earn maybe 1 cent after a year of non-stop cycling.

But I would never be cold for a whole year.

1-https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/6cf1wn/i_mined_bit...

Re:Bitcoin mining heats homes for free in Siberia [video] by Hextinium on Friday November 03, 2017 @08:26PM (#15623145)
If you used Gridcoin then you would be using you computer for something more useful (doing science) and you would get better payout too!
Re:Bitcoin mining heats homes for free in Siberia [video] by njarboe on Friday November 03, 2017 @02:09PM (#15621126)
To the moon.
Re:Bitcoin mining heats homes for free in Siberia [video] by andrewwharton on Friday November 03, 2017 @03:53PM (#15621798)
Interesting point about on-site combustion heating.

Assuming that the fossil fuel to electricity conversion is about 1/3 efficient and the heat pump CoP is 3, then on-site combustion heating is effectively as "efficient" as a heat pump.

I guess the main point is that "fossil fuel -> electricity -> grid -> heat pump" cycle seems crazily inefficient in terms of losses, especially when heating is a large portion of electricity consumption in many households.

Re:Bitcoin mining heats homes for free in Siberia [video] by loeg on Friday November 03, 2017 @07:18PM (#15622874)
Combustion heating probably has some loss in the delivery system and some heat goes out with the exhaust, so the heat pump may win, slightly.
Re:Bitcoin mining heats homes for free in Siberia [video] by exDM69 on Friday November 03, 2017 @03:34PM (#15621688)
Heat pumps would still work most of the year, even in Siberia. Different models have different operating ranges. I have 3 heat pumps that are good to -20 Celsius (-4 F), one of them even a bit colder.
Re:Bitcoin mining heats homes for free in Siberia [video] by wallace_f on Friday November 03, 2017 @12:46PM (#15620498)
>There's some ancillary energy use for blowing air around or shining lights or making sound waves

I believe this isn't really an exception, this energy would also just be converted to heat?

Re:Bitcoin mining heats homes for free in Siberia [video] by wlesieutre on Friday November 03, 2017 @12:50PM (#15620538)
At some point, yes, but if the sound is audible outside your house or the light shines out the window then it didn't turn into heat where you wanted it to.

So not 100% of that sound or light will be an exception, but some of it might.

Re:Bitcoin mining heats homes for free in Siberia [video] by dest on Friday November 03, 2017 @12:50PM (#15620534)
Agree.
Re:Bitcoin mining heats homes for free in Siberia [video] by tlrobinson on Friday November 03, 2017 @12:27PM (#15620368)
> But the important caveat is that heat pumps are (effectively) more than 100% efficient.

Well, yes, but heat pumps can't mine Bitcoin :)

Re:Bitcoin mining heats homes for free in Siberia [video] by exDM69 on Friday November 03, 2017 @02:31PM (#15621301)
A coworker of mine mines ETH to heat his house and I am considering that too. I am not sure how much you can save money compared to electric heating when you account for the cost of GPUs, though.

Heat pumps have better energy efficiency than electric heaters but whether that translates to cheaper costs is another thing. Heat pumps are expensive (about $3000 per pump) and they require regular maintenance (a few hundred bucks per pump every few years). They're also big, bulky and noisy and installation requires poking holes in exterior walls.

I have 3 heat pumps and 2 fire places in my house but I still do need a bunch of electric heaters when it gets properly cold. The weather around here is right about freezing this time of year and so far no electric heaters are needed.

But soon it's time to turn on the heat and it's a consideration of money, not energy efficiency.

Re:Bitcoin mining heats homes for free in Siberia [video] by guy_c on Saturday November 04, 2017 @03:34AM (#15624153)
Just some rough numbers for you:

A GTX1060 6GB can mine ETH at around 80 watts. And currently, earn you $25/month of ETH with electricity costing $10/month. Cost of card is $260.

https://www.cryptocompare.com/mining/calculator/eth?HashingP...

Re:Bitcoin mining heats homes for free in Siberia [video] by vlunkr on Friday November 03, 2017 @01:35PM (#15620869)
Pretty clever, I've never thought about it like that. Basically they turned a computer into a heater that pays for itself plus some. Makes you think we should be building datacenters where the heat could be used, rather than just pumping it out.
Re:Bitcoin mining heats homes for free in Siberia [video] by rzzzt on Friday November 03, 2017 @02:14PM (#15621174)
There was an attempt to host servers in a similar setup in regular houses, not sure what happened to it (the article link doesn't seem to work, either): https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9334792
Re:Bitcoin mining heats homes for free in Siberia [video] by blacksmith_tb on Friday November 03, 2017 @03:14PM (#15621576)
That was the premise behind this machine[1] (love the unintentionally humorous product rendering) but for some reason I haven't seen them popping up everywhere.

1: https://bitcoinnewsmagazine.com/bitmain-antminer-r4-home-bit...

Re:Bitcoin mining heats homes for free in Siberia [video] by aoner on Friday November 03, 2017 @10:47PM (#15623533)
Re:Bitcoin mining heats homes for free in Siberia [video] by abysmalfitzg on Friday November 03, 2017 @09:17PM (#15623319)
Is this the "famous" "siberian coefficient"?

https://books.google.com/books?id=A4DGiaOn3BwC&pg=PA167&dq=%...

Re:Bitcoin mining heats homes for free in Siberia [video] by SilasX on Friday November 03, 2017 @02:16PM (#15621186)
>It's not technically a measure of "efficiency", we call this the "coefficient of performance" instead.

I have to disagree. At its most general, the concept of efficiency means "desired output achieved per unit of scarce good expended" and can be applied in a variety of contexts: new users per dollar spent on marketing is a measure of your marketing efficiency, treasure value found per hour spent searching is a measure of your treasure-finding efficiency, etc.

Heat pumps are just a case where a) we use the same units for output and input even though they're different things, and b) in that unit system, the value for the output can be greater than the input. Since people can be unnecessarily suspicious of >100% efficiency, they use different terms for it.

If you expressed the efficiency as "2 joules of heat moved per joule of mains electricity consumed" you eliminate the canceling that would let you phrase the ratio as 200%.

Re:Bitcoin mining heats homes for free in Siberia [video] by darkmighty on Friday November 03, 2017 @02:44PM (#15621382)
> If you expressed the efficiency as "2 joules of heat moved per joule of mains electricity consumed" you eliminate the canceling that would let you phrase the ratio as 200%.

But that's the performance. Efficiency is usually a measure of how good the performance is.

In this case there's a practical reason not to call it efficiency, because there is a well understood maximum performance which is the Carnot limit, so for practical purposes (to avoid confusion) PumpedHeat/Power is called "coefficient of performance"and CarnotLimit/PumpedHeat is called "efficiency", and it has the usual properties that it cannot exceed 100% and it measures how well your system works in a more or less absolute sense.

Re:Bitcoin mining heats homes for free in Siberia [video] by jaakl on Sunday November 05, 2017 @01:42PM (#15630834)
Heat pump takes energy from two sources, power grid and outside environment: air, landmass or water (there are even air+land models etc). Their energy output is always less than sum of sources, so their efficency is never over 100%. But as the ambient land/air/water heat is generally ”free” then we seem to get 3-500% economy. I have never even seen the technical/physical efficiency numbers for heat pumps as consumers do not care about this.
Re:Bitcoin mining heats homes for free in Siberia [video] by wrcwill on Friday November 03, 2017 @04:44PM (#15622081)
Right, heat pumps cost 4x less, but a miner is returning profit. The only argument to be had is an ecological one. Mining is cheaper than a heat pump, gas, etc..