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Re:America has a monopoly problem by brndnmtthws on Tuesday October 24, 2017 @10:11AM (#15541638)
Peter Thiel (who works with YC) will tell you that monopolies are good for the world.
Re:America has a monopoly problem by grzm on Tuesday October 24, 2017 @10:23AM (#15541734)
There may be an interesting discussion here somewhere, but as constructed your comment is less likely to produce such. Do you have specifics regarding Thiel’s position and how it compares with that of the article? As is, it appears you’re looking to provoke a reaction rather than promote a productive discussion.
Re:America has a monopoly problem by newmanships on Tuesday October 24, 2017 @10:33AM (#15541816)
He gave a talk about his thoughts to a Stanford class: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z6K8PZxyQfU His slide on monopolies is around 4:40
Re:America has a monopoly problem by ZeroGravitas on Tuesday October 24, 2017 @10:49AM (#15541954)
My take is that he's basically saying capitalism doesn't work (edit: at least there's big problems within it) and if you want to get rich you should know how to play the system because just providing large amounts of social value isn't sufficient. I'm not sure that's his intended message though, since he often presents himself as a libertarian with the implicit message that capitalism and getting rich is a sign of providing social value.
Re:America has a monopoly problem by rayiner on Tuesday October 24, 2017 @10:18AM (#15541693)
They often are, because companies in highly competitive industries don’t have the excess profits to reinvest in research. Computing as we know it is largely the story of monopolies. Bell Labs bankrolled by the AT&T monopoly. Xerox PARC bankrolled by the Xerox copier monopoly. The Internet bankrolled by the ultimate monopoly (the military). The modern web bankrolled by the Google/Apple duopoly.
Re:America has a monopoly problem by jgmjgm on Tuesday October 24, 2017 @10:33AM (#15541818)
Yes, monopolies do have the resources to invest in R&D. The problem is that they often lack the incentive because they have control of a market.

Government regulations that mandate some return (think telecommunications services for those in rural areas, pollution standards, etc.) can provide an incentive for monopolists/oligopolists to perform better according to some criteria. The problem is those mandates are not what we would always consider "innovative". By definition, they are often designed to incrementally improve on the status quo.

The game of politics has an important role. When there are oligopolies in many industries it is not unusual to see regulators getting jobs at the very companies they regulate. Think of the ties between the SEC and finance, CRTC in Canada and the communications sector, etc. Monopolists have a way of cementing their position in the economy and reducing the mandates that governments place on them.

Re:America has a monopoly problem by wu-ikkyu on Tuesday October 24, 2017 @10:23AM (#15541736)
>companies in highly competitive industries don’t have the excess profits to reinvest in research.

On the flip side, monopolies often have little incentive to invest in improving their products/services, and find they can profit from making their products cheaper/worse.

Re:America has a monopoly problem by emodendroket on Tuesday October 24, 2017 @10:35AM (#15541836)
Or outright killing research that threatens their main revenue drivers. Like, OK, we eventually got digital cameras, but Kodak didn't do anything with it for a long time because they wanted to keep selling film. With graver consequences, Exxon decided to suppress its own findings about climate change.
Re:America has a monopoly problem by kazagistar on Tuesday October 24, 2017 @10:42AM (#15541894)
Another ongoing example: suppression of research into male birth control due to fears of cutting into profits from the cash cow that is female birth control.
Re:America has a monopoly problem by CPLX on Tuesday October 24, 2017 @10:27AM (#15541769)
> Bell Labs bankrolled by the AT&T monopoly.

Comparing one very effective and interesting skunkworks lab with the incredible explosion in choices and service in telecommunication, as well as drastically lower prices, that came when the monopoly was broken up?

I think you're demonstrating the anti-monopoly point handily.

Re:America has a monopoly problem by rayiner on Tuesday October 24, 2017 @10:37AM (#15541855)
The AT&T breakup destroyed the telecommunications industry. AT&T’s gold-plated POTS network was expensive, but for its time it was a technical marvel. Competitive industries don’t build stuff like that. There is a reason Apple and Samsung (huge, vertically integrated monopolies) produce the best phones.
Re:America has a monopoly problem by titzer on Tuesday October 24, 2017 @10:26AM (#15541760)
Yet all of those monopolies either imploded, had their markets simply dry up, were out-innovated by smaller competitors, or investors just moved onto hotter fads.

The crashing and burning of a big monopoly may very well be a healthy event; but oh the damage they do before then...

Re:America has a monopoly problem by emodendroket on Tuesday October 24, 2017 @10:37AM (#15541852)
Well it's not entirely clear that everything's great afterward either, since a lot of people are employed by any monopoly that crashes and burns and whole towns or regions can be devastated by that event.
Re:America has a monopoly problem by callinyouin on Tuesday October 24, 2017 @10:43AM (#15541896)
Kind of a hard argument to make when there are plenty of examples of contributions to computing that weren't bankrolled by monopolies. Just think about how much, especially in the early days, came out of academia alone. And I'm not sure where you get that the modern web has been bankrolled by Google and Apple when there are many, many other contributors.

IMO, innovation is usually fueled by competition. Where there's lots of competition, the need to innovate is the necessity for survival. I mean, how innovative was Microsoft in the 90's when they essentially had a monopoly on desktop computing? That's how we got stuck with IE 6 for so long...

Re:America has a monopoly problem by rayiner on Tuesday October 24, 2017 @10:56AM (#15542018)
> Just think about how much, especially in the early days, came out of academia alone.

Academic institutions are hugely monopolistic...

> Where there's lots of competition, the need to innovate is the necessity for survival.

That's the theory. In practice, competition drives bean-counting efficiency. See, e.g., Thinkpads before and after the Lenovo acquisition. Pretty much the only place you see innovation in that space is among companies that can carve out a niche based on brand or differentiating factors (Apple), or among companies that have a monopoly on a key piece of the supply chain (Intel, Microsoft).

Re:America has a monopoly problem by baursak on Tuesday October 24, 2017 @10:35AM (#15541842)
I guess as long as they are regulated, monopolies can be beneficial to the society overall, in many ways intangibly. Bell Labs is a great example of something that kept on giving (Unix, C, etc).

I wonder what could make something like Comcast into a "good monopoly" though.

Another aspect is that commercial competition, while generally accepted as a system that in the end delivers superior results, seems woefully inefficient in terms of waste of resources, as opposed to something like academic competition, were people freely reuse competitors' previous work.

Re:America has a monopoly problem by emodendroket on Tuesday October 24, 2017 @10:34AM (#15541823)
I don't really think it is fair or reasonable to gloss over the tremendous role of government research by just calling the military "the ultimate monopoly."
Re:America has a monopoly problem by mtberatwork on Tuesday October 24, 2017 @10:42AM (#15541895)
...or all of the universities that contributed a wealth of research to modern computing.
Re:America has a monopoly problem by pjc50 on Tuesday October 24, 2017 @10:31AM (#15541804)
AT&T of course had a strict ban on innovation by third parties on the phone network, up to the "hush-a-phone" case.
Re:America has a monopoly problem by maxxxxx on Tuesday October 24, 2017 @10:32AM (#15541805)
I remember reading his quote and I understood it to mean that a monopoly is good for the company that has it and a company should try to achieve a monopoly. I don't think he said that it's for the greater good.
Re:America has a monopoly problem by hanklazard on Tuesday October 24, 2017 @10:16AM (#15541681)
Any links you could recommend? I’d like to read more as I disagree strongly.
Re:America has a monopoly problem by losteric on Tuesday October 24, 2017 @10:24AM (#15541739)
Re:America has a monopoly problem by emodendroket on Tuesday October 24, 2017 @10:39AM (#15541874)
I mean, in the narrow sense he's of course right -- if you're a business owner or investor the logical thing to do is to aim to create a monopoly. Where I depart is the claim that this is also good for society as a whole.
Re:America has a monopoly problem by losteric on Tuesday October 24, 2017 @11:23AM (#15542234)
I agree - didn't feel it was worth mentioning considering the original and the criticism I linked to :)

I like drawing parallels between economics and ecology... monopolies are farms, massive artificial monocultures that suppress natural competition and extract value for the profit of a few. They embody a cycle of growth and stagnation.

A healthy economy is more like a jungle, innumerable smaller competitors with diverse approaches to survival... an extremely resilient and constantly evolving ecosystem that leads to fascinating innovation.

Re:America has a monopoly problem by jasode on Tuesday October 24, 2017 @11:38AM (#15542365)
>A healthy economy is more like a jungle, innumerable smaller competitors ... that leads to fascinating innovation.

I think you missed PT's point. The word "monopoly" has overshadowed his message. He wants people to pursue "blue ocean"[1] ideas to be innovative.

Instead of starting a company that makes another generic clone of aspirin, you pursue a drug that cures breast cancer. Or instead of building a business that broadcasts 150 characters (hey we offer you +10 more characters than Twitter), do something more innovative for society like building cheap flying cars.

I'd venture to guess that 99% actually agree with PT's underlying idea (innovation) but the distasteful word "monopoly" has completely drowned out the message. The term "blue ocean" is the same concept -- it just doesn't rile people up as much.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Ocean_Strategy

Re:America has a monopoly problem by losteric on Tuesday October 24, 2017 @02:38PM (#15544069)
I think you missed my point too... I'm not talking about Thiel. I addressed him and changed topics.

What you're describing is a jungle. Niches with dominant players that share in a diverse resilient economy. Bees and hummingbirds compete for the same resources but they are not copycats.

A monopoly is a farm, an established entity that's taken control of the local system to suppress disrupters.

Re:America has a monopoly problem by jasode on Tuesday October 24, 2017 @02:55PM (#15544225)
>I addressed him

That's the part I was replying to. When you say "I agree" with parent post that disagreed that "[monopoly] is also good for society as a whole."

>A monopoly is a farm,...

I wasn't replying to this alternative analogy. I think we both agree that PT wasn't using "monopoly" in this manner. His usage of "monopoly" was closer to your "jungle" ecosystem. My point was that you may actually not be disagreeing with PT.

Re:America has a monopoly problem by emodendroket on Tuesday October 24, 2017 @12:04PM (#15542620)
Does the typical investor really care if the idea is a cure for breast cancer or "driving all existing providers in some space out of business and then mopping up the market"?
Re:America has a monopoly problem by jasode on Tuesday October 24, 2017 @12:15PM (#15542736)
Yes, investors care about the goals of the business. See the promises of Theranos' "40 tests and detect cancer from a single drop of blood". I can't think of a VC that has the investment thesis of "put money into businesses that has cutthroat competition and drive others out of business".

Theranos had promises of "blue ocean". No competition. This attracted investors like moths to a flame. (We now know they had no competitors because their technology was a fraud.) The investors would have been better off investing in a boring factory making generic aspirin ("red oceans of bloody competition").

Re:America has a monopoly problem by emodendroket on Tuesday October 24, 2017 @12:29PM (#15542847)
I'd argue that's basically what Uber is trying to do.
Re:America has a monopoly problem by jasode on Tuesday October 24, 2017 @12:41PM (#15542931)
Fyi... Peter Thiel thinks Uber is overvalued. He didn't like the way they compete.

Uber should be a case study that burning up billions in investor money (billions wasted on trying to underprice Didi in China) was a colossal mistake. How much of that bad strategy is blamed on Travis's vs investors is something we won't know until a tell-all book comes out.

Re:America has a monopoly problem by emodendroket on Tuesday October 24, 2017 @03:35PM (#15544541)
I think they're likely overvalued too, but it seems to be an obvious counterexample of the claims about investor behavior regardless.
Re:America has a monopoly problem by frgtpsswrdlame on Tuesday October 24, 2017 @10:24AM (#15541745)
He's also wrong.
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Re:America has a monopoly problem by dang on Tuesday October 24, 2017 @10:34PM (#15546966)
Please don't post unsubstantive comments here. (Whether about YC or anything else, doesn't matter.)
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Re:America has a monopoly problem by buttcoinslol on Tuesday October 24, 2017 @10:37AM (#15541851)
Not sure why I'm being downvoted? OP throws out "Peter Thiel says monopolies are good," which is an appeal to authority and a post meant to cause controversy.
Re:America has a monopoly problem by chimprich on Tuesday October 24, 2017 @10:45AM (#15541918)
The OP wasn't necessarily agreeing with Thiel, just highlighting something of a counter-opinion. Your reply was a bit uncivil and didn't really add anything.
Re:America has a monopoly problem by emodendroket on Tuesday October 24, 2017 @10:38AM (#15541863)
I think the point was probably more an attack on Thiel than an appeal to authority.
Re:America has a monopoly problem by atom-morgan on Tuesday October 24, 2017 @10:25AM (#15541753)
Referring to natural monopolies or monopolies created and enforced by the government?