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Re:Could ayahuasca have health benefits? by virtualwhys on Sunday October 01, 2017 @11:03AM (#15378166)
> Could psychedelic drug ayahuasca have health benefits?

Certainly, anecdotally I kicked a very strong 20 year coffee and sugar habit after doing a 3-day retreat in Latin America this past winter. Just happened naturally, oh, I don't need this daily coffee and sugar fix anymore.

On the flip side, as the article mentions, the psychedlic tourism industry as a whole doesn't have formal safe guards in place for when the shit hits the fan with one (or more) of the attendees. My friend, who sat all eleven days, said that two women just completely lost it on day 3, screaming hysterically, out of their minds battling unknown demons.

The retreat "helpers", do the best they can to settle you down, but when you're deep in the experience it's very hard to distinguish between real/unreal. For example, in some kind of existential moment I shouted out in my mind's eye, "you are the most high!". In reality I shocked the 30 other attendants out of their seats, and a helper rushed up to see if I was Ok.

It's an extremely powerful substance. At the end of the retreat, when everyone headed off to sleep, I was still tripping so hard that sleep was impossible. When I finally lay down the sheer flow of non-stop Dali/Escher-like hallucinations running through my mind were sufficient to make me question whether I was ever going to return to reality -- Pandora's box indeed.

tl;dr; proceed with caution, can have beneficial side-effects.

Re:Could ayahuasca have health benefits? by SwellJoe on Sunday October 01, 2017 @02:36PM (#15379153)
"Certainly, anecdotally I kicked a very strong 20 year coffee and sugar habit after doing a 3-day retreat in Latin America this past winter. Just happened naturally, oh, I don't need this daily coffee and sugar fix anymore."

Isn't three days about how long it takes to get over caffeine withdrawal symptoms, regardless of whether one has retreated to Latin America and taken psychedelic drugs?

Re:Could ayahuasca have health benefits? by borski on Sunday October 01, 2017 @02:55PM (#15379232)
That's the peak. It can last about a week.
Re:Could ayahuasca have health benefits? by SwellJoe on Sunday October 01, 2017 @06:37PM (#15380279)
Is there reason to believe ayahuasca shortens that period?
Re:Could ayahuasca have health benefits? by andai on Sunday October 01, 2017 @12:00PM (#15378408)
<anecdotal>

Can confirm, addictions to sugar, caffeine, alcohol and cannabis evaporated during my trip and did not return for many weeks. I had never felt so peaceful and balanced in my life. Whereas previously I was trying to escape chaos with substances, now consuming substances would only serve unbalance me.

I felt like, wow, this is what a human being is supposed to feel like! When you face what is within you, and process it, it no longer burdens you. Psychedelics seem to facilitate this process.

</anecdotal>

Re:Could ayahuasca have health benefits? by Fnoord on Sunday October 01, 2017 @01:04PM (#15378694)
Ibogaine also reportedly has that effect. [1]

Out of the addictions you claim you had, only alcohol is severe. Cannabis is mostly psychological addiction but users often combine it with tobacco which is also physiological addicting.

Caffeine addiction is very easy to break with some sheer willpower. The withdrawal symptoms only last 1-2 days, and the side effects are a serious headache. That's nothing compared to heroin, nicotine, or alcohol addiction.

Sugar (and salt) is just a matter of habit. There is no conclusive evidence sugar is a proven addiction. You don't see burglars breaking in to steal sugar, do you?

Why would Ayahuasca work better than professional guidance (e.g. CBT) plus drugs with a proven track record such as Nalmefene, Naltrexone, Bupropion (Zyban), or Disulfiram (Antabuse)?

You wrote: "addictions [...] evaporated during my trip and did not return for many weeks". Do you mean your cravings were gone? I don't think one ever fully heals from an addiction. You're still an addict, just not one who's practicing their addiction (giving in to it). That is precisely where professional guidance can aid one.

To anyone who is addicted to alcohol I'd like to state: search professional help, please. Don't DIY medicate. If you are a severe alcoholic, you should not quit overnight. That is very dangerous. Instead, you need to slowly lower your dose. The best way to do that is, again, under professional guidance. A shaman might know a lot about Ayahuasca, but he's no MD.

Don't get me wrong, it is interesting to explore and discuss, and I'm also a proponent of scientific research in this field. However we should be wary with drug-related advice, or unrealistically high expectations.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibogaine#Addiction_treatment (Yes, Wikipedia. Contains various references)

Re:Could ayahuasca have health benefits? by computerex on Sunday October 01, 2017 @03:38PM (#15379405)
I am all for seeking professional help, and I don't put faith in alternative medical practices. With that said, I think currently pharmacology is too constrained by special interest groups. Cannabis is a great example of something that greatly improves the quality of life for many people, but isn't recognized and respected as medicine by the medical community at large.
Re:Could ayahuasca have health benefits? by Fnoord on Sunday October 01, 2017 @04:52PM (#15379744)
> Cannabis is a great example of something that greatly improves the quality of life for many people, but isn't recognized and respected as medicine by the medical community at large.

Scientific research can go (too) slow to your liking and/or needs.

With cannabis, that's been changing the past decade AFAICT. My late father had MS, and he had the opportunity to use cannabis to reduce the effects of MS well over 10 years ago (he didn't use that opportunity because of his preconceived notion about cannabis). My late uncle, who AFAIK never used cannabis before (it is decriminalized here), used cannabis to reduce the side effects of chemotherapy. More and more governments are accepting medical marihuana/cannabis. Portugal has decriminalized a lot of drugs, and even in the conservative USA various States are finally adopting medical marihuana.

That being said, there are also cannabis zealots. E.g. some people abuse that scientific research to justify their pot smoking (which is here, unlike in USA, traditionally combined with tobacco, and regardless includes carcinogenics). They simply deny that smoking is bad for their lungs despite decades of evidence suggesting the contrary. I know one friend of my partner who claims cannabis is great for his diabetes but dismisses his change in lifestyle/diet. You cannot simply ignore such factors, and they greatly complicate scientific evidence in research, never mind for those who decide to self medicate based on such research.

Re:Could ayahuasca have health benefits? by isoskeles on Sunday October 01, 2017 @02:53PM (#15379229)
> You don't see burglars breaking in to steal sugar, do you?

Sugar is easily available. I'm not saying it's addictive or not, I don't know enough about that, but if people are addicted to it, there's not a real need to steal it when you can buy a soda for less than $2. That's why you don't see burglars breaking in anywhere to steal it.

Re:Could ayahuasca have health benefits? by tudorw on Monday October 02, 2017 @03:37AM (#15382240)
"You don't see burglars breaking in to steal sugar, do you?"

Sugar is about 70p / kilo here...

Re:Could ayahuasca have health benefits? by odammit on Sunday October 01, 2017 @12:27PM (#15378523)
This is interesting. I only know one person that’s done it and he said the same thing. Kicked all the habits. I didn’t know him before his trip so I assumed he was kind of full of it.

Based on my escalating coffee bill maybe I should give this a swing...

So are the hallucinations ever “fun”? I’ve dabbled in other things and it has generally been very video game like kidjoy. All ayahuasca hallucinations I’ve read about have sounded terrifying.

Re:Could ayahuasca have health benefits? by KennyCason on Sunday October 01, 2017 @01:52PM (#15378912)
I'm going to try very hard to describe this. It will not be enough :)

It's more than "fun", much more profound, it's Everything, perhaps the single most important thing. It's ineffable, yet, you still feel obligated to try and explain it, as I'm doing. You may experience total happiness, love, wholeness, but then seconds later experience the exact opposite, total depression, despair, loneliness, humiliation, fear, violence. You may experience a plane of existence where you ARE time, and you see how time affects everything at once, as a result, it's a feeling of timelessness, you can see everything happening, a feeling of eternal existence. Perhaps you will then see that the same way events are connected together to form the feeling of time, in fact, everything you know is connected together in your brain, you can move through any of the connections, not just temporal. You may experience realities similar to your own, perhaps many at once, but you may also be catapulted into a completely geometric and abstract universe of inexplicable nature, but you'll feel as if you understand it, as long as you don't try and describe it in language. You may "see" the fundamental structure of sound and music as your various neural compartments cross-fire and visual cortex processes sound or sound cortex process visual data. You may "see" sexuality. You may see good and evil and the necessary duality of the two. For that matter you may see the dualistic relationship of everything. Everything exists because defining non-existence commands the definition of existence. You may see the fundamental feedback loop where perception meets the internal mental model your brain builds to interpret reality. Wait? feedback loop? You don't even know which side is real, cause-effect is completely broken down, it's now a Strange Loop. You may then see, truly see, that your whole entire known reality, including everything you see and perceive to be "outside" of your body is all actually inside your brain. You're trapped, this is your reality. You will likely discover/meet your inner self, you will realize that the consciousness really is the tip of the iceberg as you get rocketed inward into your deep sub consciousness, which has a mind of it's own. Also, for me, it knew everything I was thinking in advance. So when I'd make a joke or expression it would react with "why are you responding to me, I'm the one that told you what you think", so you learn to just shut up and enjoy the ride. It will likely be so beautiful and significant that you may even question if what you experienced was a divine experience. It will be so intense that you will have had a glimpse as to what a super consciousness or hyper-intelligence may look like, as you become even more aware of how small your conscious mind really is in comparison to the whole. You may feel as if all, everything, every person is connected. For example, the knowledge of good vs evil, and the gradient between, and hot and cold, and temperatures between, are these really different things? After all, in your brain they are both represented as neural connections, a graph if you will. And is it just the interpretation of the neural pattern that gives them meaning? The brain just being a massive network of brain cells, where the fundamental unit is a connection, you may realize, no wonder the foundation of human reasoning is also limited to the notion of stateful logic. Perhaps, after 10 hours of this, you start to want to come back to reality, but you learned something very important this day. You can't go back, you don't, part of you has transcended to Buddha-hood. But you're a stubborn human, you fight to come back, that fighting, rooted in fear, fear is linked to many other negative memories, they may take command of your brain. Have you went crazy? Did you just forgo your conscious existence as you knew it? Then you're sitting there, watching yourself in a mental institution as your family is there crying wondering what happened to you, but communication with them is futile as you have transcended, but part of you, is stuck in that body, for 50 years as you've realized that this infinite experience is just a bit more than you asked for. But that's just one of the many negative things you dream up! Of course, acid is illegal where you lived, so that random sound is the cops showing up and escorting you out. Or perhaps you wake up naked and vulnerable outside, but it's just a trip, as you rock back and forth between the meta-mind-space and all these false realities. (a process called "looping") You face all your fears and inner personal problems, you confront your selfish ego, and all the negative things about yourself, you're embarrassed of yourself as your mind is nakedly exposed. Just as you got to see all the beauty of nature, you also realize how messed up you and everything is. It's hard, very hard, but you face it and accept it. This is what some people call a "bad trip", but to me, that is precisely what made it a "good trip". You eventually grab on to pieces of reality, one at a time, until you finally come all the way back. It takes many hours, and days to process everything. You're never really sure if you ever came back. But you don't mind. You've experienced enlightenment. You're at peace with yourself and the universe, if there's even a difference. You have a new appreciation for everything. But similarly, you also realize the empty, void of meaning nature of the universe. For some people this is all too much. For me, this was the ultimate lens into "reality", and gave me a new spark and energy for life that is unparalleled to any previous experience.

A small side note: This feels very great to have finally shared. It has been melting inside me to get out.

Re:Could ayahuasca have health benefits? by odammit on Sunday October 01, 2017 @02:18PM (#15379056)
Holy shit, man. That’s intense.

Was that acid or ayahuasca? Did you do multiple days?

I’ve done acid a handful of times. I’ve luckily never had a “bad trip” but I did have to untangle a friend from a coil of barbed wire which he thought was jungle vines.

Another time (I’m from Florida) I went out during a tropical storm (we don’t take those seriously) with a shovel and a laminated note from myself reminding me “everything is OK, but go inland if the water gets above your belly button” and buried myself waste deep in the sand at the beach to force myself to watch the storm. That was a crazy night.

Lightening is weird when it sticks to the ground permanently.

Re:Could ayahuasca have health benefits? by KennyCason on Sunday October 01, 2017 @02:32PM (#15379137)
It was very intense. It lasted 12-14 hours.

I did 5 tabs my first time without realizing how strong acid was. I had no reference, no preparation, no warning. I was just thrown into the deep end. It was so intense that I didn't even remember entering the trip, I wasn't sure if I just died or how I got there. It took, what I would have perceived as lifetimes for me to ground myself and realize what was going on.

I say the "perceived lifetimes" because there was literally times where I'd experience trips that absolutely took hours in perceived time, but they would always be interrupted by my friend's snore in the next room. His snore was the trigger for a loop to reset.

One in particularly was when I was "arguing" with myself about how of course my mental reality was less accurate than real reality, and my brain was telling me that it actually doesn't know the difference and that the only reality is what it knows. Then after me arguing that it's mental models were inferior, the next thing I know I'm walking down a sidewalk, feeling the heat of the sun and everything. I'm talking with my friend, explaining the trip to him and how happy I am that it's over. But he just keeps smiling at me strangely and asks "you don't get it yet?", to which I respond, "what are you talking about." To which he says "nothing, never mind," and we keep walking. Then I hear a snore, that shakes the whole entire space. I look at my friend, he smiles. I realize that the whole thing was conjured up. He looks at me and says "That's what it's all about." and then the trip collapses back to a more abstract meta-mind space. That walk was for at least 20 minutes. But it all happened between two snores. Absolutely wild.

Re:Could ayahuasca have health benefits? by odammit on Sunday October 01, 2017 @02:39PM (#15379176)
5 tabs is a good amount of tabs.

I got myself into that mess a few times with the whole “we got ripped off let’s take it all just in case” just to realize I didn’t get ripped off and the first thing I always think when it kicks in is “I got ripped off”

Now as a grown up(ish) it’s turned into “I got ripped off, oh never mind I’m high this is fine”

Re:Could ayahuasca have health benefits? by KennyCason on Sunday October 01, 2017 @02:47PM (#15379205)
That's pretty much how I ended up taking 5 tabs. I definitely learned my lesson, but am very grateful I did it. My second trip with 1 tab was not even remotely comparable nor as enlightening. I actually haven't done it since (definitely open to), but have noticed that now I can reach a similar state through mediation. I noticed something else odd as well though, now if I do marijuana edibles (sativa), I can actually revisit the psychedelic state, not as intense, but enough for me to question if I ever left the psychedelic state to begin with.
Re:Could ayahuasca have health benefits? by computerex on Sunday October 01, 2017 @03:45PM (#15379425)
Weed's psychedelic properties are vastly understated. Especially for people who aren't exposed to it, the first few times is definitely a very psychedelic experience.
Re:Could ayahuasca have health benefits? by KennyCason on Sunday October 01, 2017 @02:36PM (#15379160)
Oh wow that sounds amazing. I was sadly in a dark house locked in a room with a bathroom. Environment wise it can't get much worse.

My second time I only did 1 tab and it was much more sane and I was intact with reality. The amazing thing about that experience was that when watching the sky and trees, I saw pinks and purples that don't exist as typical colors and they would move between dark and light shades following very intricate patterns. This would also cause my do shift from happy to sad and back. Eventually, after a long time, I realized what I was seeing was the pattern of the wind flowing through everything. Was amazing because I'm pretty sure it's something we don't typically consciously think about. :)

Re:Could ayahuasca have health benefits? by kobeya on Sunday October 01, 2017 @02:04PM (#15378967)
Three screenfuls of a run on paragraph does not convince me of a desirable outcome.
Re:Could ayahuasca have health benefits? by KennyCason on Sunday October 01, 2017 @02:13PM (#15379025)
I also want to be careful that people don't do acid because they think it's going to be "fun." They will likely be in for a large surprise if they do. They should instead be prepared and do it safely. It's a lot different than drinking a beer.
Re:Could ayahuasca have health benefits? by odammit on Sunday October 01, 2017 @02:40PM (#15379183)
Most acid trips feel like a run on sentence. It’s the perfect medium for describing one :D
Re:Could ayahuasca have health benefits? by KennyCason on Sunday October 01, 2017 @02:53PM (#15379225)
That's a very good way to describe it. I hadn't thought about it, but indeed, every time I "grasp" something, it unfolds/collapses/opens/transforms into something else, (over and (over and (over and (...))).

I wonder if it's because information flows in cycles throughout the brain. Any thought that you would be aware of is because your brain observed its own thought, thus starting the thought cycle over again. It would seem that this just repeats continuously as your brain thinks. :)

Re:Could ayahuasca have health benefits? by kobeya on Sunday October 01, 2017 @09:23PM (#15381052)
Sure, but this comment was supposed to convince me do undergo hallucinogenic treatment because it can be profound experience, or something. I'm not really sure actually, but it does say that in the first sentence.

The actual result could not have been more different. I'll Nope out of that one, thank you.

Re:Could ayahuasca have health benefits? by KennyCason on Monday October 02, 2017 @12:36AM (#15381726)
I wasn't trying to convince you of anything. You asked if psychedelic experiences are fun. I responded with an attempt at a more "complete" explanation. i.e. It's a full-mind experience. It encompasses all your known feelings/thoughts, and will likely even transcend those. The word fun is too simple to describe the experience.
Re:Could ayahuasca have health benefits? by KennyCason on Sunday October 01, 2017 @02:10PM (#15378998)
I don't know if "desirable" is a suitable word for describing psychedelic experience. You don't really get to pick the outcome. The outcome largely depends on your inner self.

I don't know if any words can truly do it justice. I truly think it's an ineffable experience. :)

Re:Could ayahuasca have health benefits? by eip on Monday October 02, 2017 @01:33PM (#15385926)
> Three screenfuls

What is this? A screen for ants?

Re:Could ayahuasca have health benefits? by kobeya on Monday October 02, 2017 @06:18PM (#15388446)
Mobile.
Re:Could ayahuasca have health benefits? by jdavis703 on Sunday October 01, 2017 @01:38PM (#15378860)
Caffeine pills are pretty cheap. Switching to them has saved me a ton, and now that lattes are a once-a-week treat I enjoy them more.
Re:Could ayahuasca have health benefits? by thescribe on Sunday October 01, 2017 @04:16PM (#15379567)
Personally I find the idea of setting out to muddle the perception of reality terrifying. I've had sleep deprivation hallucinations and I think everyone should do whatever is in their power not to hallucinate.
Re:Could ayahuasca have health benefits? by hal9000xp on Sunday October 01, 2017 @12:34PM (#15378560)
> I don't need this daily coffee and sugar fix anymore.

In the same way, some people just stop being "addicted" to life in general after strong trip. Some of them decide to commit suicide.

Just yesterday, I've been in party and one guy told story of his friend who committed suicide after such trip.

The big problem with psychedelics is that you can't predict in which way a trip could change you.

Re:Could ayahuasca have health benefits? by fjsh on Sunday October 01, 2017 @01:35PM (#15378846)
Which drug? Context matters.

Salvia can be a very negative experience and has allegedly caused suicides.

DMT is almost a universally euphoric and positive experience although not Ayahausca. I have never heard of anyone committing suicide after either.

The big problem with psychedelics is how people spread fear and uncertainty. Try sharing the death statistics for alcohol the next time you share a bottle of wine with a romantic interest.

Re:Could ayahuasca have health benefits? by tree_of_item on Sunday October 01, 2017 @01:58PM (#15378941)
If salvia is very negative for you then you're doing too much. Sadly most people use salvia "extracts" which are almost guaranteed to be far too much to handle. Stick with plain leaf.
Re:Could ayahuasca have health benefits? by ci5er on Sunday October 01, 2017 @01:42PM (#15378886)
Salvia is, for me, is quite rough.

But I can't imagine it causing suicide. What's the progression/causation there? Or do we just not have enough data to know?

Re:Could ayahuasca have health benefits? by dannypgh on Sunday October 01, 2017 @01:53PM (#15378915)
It would likely be quite difficult to ethically do such a study. Correlation alone isn't compelling: it could simply be that the underlying reason a significant share of people turn to [insert mind-altering substance here] is underlying emotional suffering, trauma, etc. and if the substance doesn't offer any improvement they end up resorting to suicide.
Re:Could ayahuasca have health benefits? by ci5er on Sunday October 01, 2017 @02:08PM (#15378987)
Maybe.

But based on the 3rd-hand reports I have read (the suicide can't/doesn't report), the self-kill-decision seems more immediate than the realization that the efficacy of the substance wasn't, you know, efficacious.

Re:Could ayahuasca have health benefits? by wallace_f on Sunday October 01, 2017 @01:30PM (#15378818)
Yea, in simple terms it has a multiplier effect on everything you experience. If feelings go bad, they can go really bad and remain that way afterwards.

But you commented on suicide. I also have a friend who unfortunately passed this way. Do you have any data on this? From what I have seen, studies have been limited.

I had read somewhere on erowid years ago a study where an increase in mental illness and suicide after psychadelic use was positive but less than an increase seen in another study of people who had completed religious quests.

Re:Could ayahuasca have health benefits? by hutzlibu on Sunday October 01, 2017 @05:54PM (#15380061)
"Just yesterday, I've been in party and one guy told story of his friend who committed suicide after such trip."

unpleasant theory: maybe in some cases it is even better, that a person just kills himself after a drug-triggered insight - instead of years of drowning everybody around them into their black hole - and still suicide in the end. (or worse, go amok)

But sure, I am not saying at all, that this was the case in your story. What I know is, that Psychedelics are no miracles. The "insights" you get, might be also totally wrong and misleading.

I see Drugs as "tools" for the mind. You can use them right, or wrong.

Re:Could ayahuasca have health benefits? by hhhxyxyy on Tuesday October 03, 2017 @08:41AM (#15391985)
The main insight is more likely that people like you exist, with your immature attitude/ridiculous theory on suicide. I find your kind to be subtly destructive and all too common.

Take care and aloha.

Re:Could ayahuasca have health benefits? by hutzlibu on Tuesday October 03, 2017 @10:52AM (#15392783)
Those are very good arguments you provide ...

It is probably pointless, but to try more arguments, I think the same about you " I find your kind to be subtly destructive and all too common"

The illusionary theory, that every human must be saved at all costs. Only that in reality "by all costs" means very often, that not only one goes down, but also many people around them.

I have seen it too often. And in the end, those persons might indeed still breathe, but more like zombies and not really alive .

Letting go can be less cruel in the bigger picture.

Re:Could ayahuasca have health benefits? by hhhxyxyy on Tuesday October 03, 2017 @04:12PM (#15395724)
Do you actually have experience with counterculture? Primal instincts based around the idea of dominance prevail as often do in any social hierarchy, and the musings about some type of altruistism surrounding suicide by the commenter to whom I replied reflect this reality.

In short, the counterculture movement is plenty infiltrated with immature and often sociopathic mentalities that heartlessly harass sensitive folks who are at their most vulnerable under the influence of psychedelics. This is rarely discussed but is so prevalent, particularly since the age of exposure aligns with immature phases, adolesence in particular.

In laymen’s terms, it’s a sport to “fuck with” someone who has a “reaction”. Perhaps it’s the suicide victim realizing that, instead of this idea that they are a defective burden saving society from their own black hole via premature self termination, that they are escaping unwanted membership of a vastly primitive species. I assure you, the mentality of the suicidal is quite the opposite of “conventional wisdom” about being a burden, at least in some cases.

Re:Could ayahuasca have health benefits? by hutzlibu on Tuesday October 03, 2017 @08:10PM (#15397328)
Dude.

You told me I am imature, because I proposed the theory, that in some(!) cases, it might be better for a suicidal person to just kill himself, instead of everyone around them as well. (I know cases, where persons literally think about the latter, those I referenced)

So what has that to do with psychopaths who take advantage of sensitive persons and possible drive them to death?!?

Not at all related for the sake of the original argument.

But by now I know your type of person well, self-declared enlighted ... high above the " primitive species" below. But unhappy, because the primitive people have the power and therefore drive the enlightened down out of jealously. Yeah, yeah, I know.

Well in that case, what do you think about a very low specimen who is so down, that he hinks about either killing himself, or other's? Save him under all costs and risk him later still killing "enlightened" people? Or accept him choosing to go on his own, now? Why do you care anyway, he's just from a "low species"...

Re:Could ayahuasca have health benefits? by hhhxyxyy on Tuesday October 03, 2017 @08:15PM (#15397351)
You come across as suggesting to someone they should self-terminate because it's better that way.
Re:Could ayahuasca have health benefits? by hutzlibu on Wednesday October 04, 2017 @08:17AM (#15399913)
In "some" cases I do believe, it is the better way.

Not at all in all cases, nor in your case.