On the one hand, look at these maps [1], that show the results of the general spanish elections since the dissolution of the dictatoship. Do you see the upper-right part that is nearly always different than the majority? That is Catalonia.

Catalans also have a different language, a strong sense of being a nation (their "local consitution" says so!), etc.. Money is one of the reasons, but not the only one, not even by a long shot.

[1] https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anexo:Elecciones_en_España#Dis...

> Catalans also have a different language, a strong sense of being a nation (their "local consitution" says so!), etc..

And none of those things is being repressed, I have to add. As a Catalan friend pointed out, they speak and teach Catalan in schools, have complete freedom to vote on issues of their region, etc. I have to agree with the GP that it's mostly the economy doing a bit better than the other regions, which leads Catalonia to a "why should we have to support these others" mentality.

Yes they are.

The pro-independence movement didn't really take off until the Spanish Constitutional Court thwarted 17 articles and redacted 27 more from the latest "Catalan constitution" (Estatut). A "constitution" which had been approved by the Catalan Parliament, the Spanish Parliament and the Catalan citizens themselves in a referendum (in that order).

Likewise, the latest Spanish education law (LOMCE) includes an article making it MANDATORY to offer a Spanish-as-the-vehicular-language education if any parents ask for it.

How is that "having complete freedom to vote on issues of their region"? You may mean "... so long as Spain as a whole is fine with them". How complete.

Couldn't you make the same point for any region? I'm free to do whatever I want to my house, as long as my district is fine with it. My district is free to do whatever they want, as long as the country is fine with it. The country is free to do what they want, as long as the EU is fine with it. And so on. It's the cost of living with other people, and there are benefits to that too.

The United Nations have sanctioned the self-determination right [1]. Quoting wikipedia:

> It [the self-determination right] states that a people, based on respect for the principle of equal rights and fair equality of opportunity, have the right to freely choose their sovereignty and international political status with no interference.

Hence, your argument breaks down at some point. The big issue is how to define that point, because the right definition does not include qualifying criteria for what constitutes "people" and what doesn't.

Based on their strong national identity, pro-separatists in Catalonia consider that they have this right. There are many issues and arguments supporting both sides (although most state-nations are against any kind of wide applicability of the self-determination right for obvious reasons).

In any case, nobody, neither in Catalonia nor elsewhere advocates for that right for your family, your district, etc. because you don't have a national sentiment, you don't feel like a separate ethnic and so on.

We can discuss whether Catalans constitute an ethnicity separate from the Spaniards or not, whether the self-determination right applies in this case or not, and so on... but please don't use the "If Catalans can, my family should also be able too" because it is just derailing the conversation.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-determination

Being a self-sustainable, and relatively wealthy region is what allows the Independence movement but, as you said, it is not the cause.

Catalan here. There are historic and cultural reasons to split also.

The economic rationale behind your post is absolutely correct. However we don't want to split because we don't want to share; we want to split because of the missuse and economic opression and the unending corruption that plagues Spain. We don't think ourselves of so-prosperous at all in that sense - and at the same time I'll admit corruption is always an issue in democracy, but Spain's case is taking it to ridiculous levels.

Let me post sources in few for what I'm saying, on the phone right now.

And Pujol(ex president of Catalonia with money in Andorra, and some of his son in jail) cases? The 3% percent... From Huelva to Girona all sucks and the corruption is everywhere. Pujol one day said: "if I talk everything is going to be destroyed" because everyone knows that the other stole money but nobody talk

Not sure why constantly saying "u more!" is an argument at all to deny population voting. Childish if you ask me.

I didn't say you more. I said some examples to say that in all the country it's the same with the corruption. I said anything about the vote in this comment

it's a matter of magnitudes :-)

There's nothing sudden at all. They effectively lost their independence 300 years ago but the drive for independence has always been there (along, famously, with a few other parts of modern Spain). They have their own language, their own culture.

Their desire for independence has been around for hundreds of years.

But even if that wasn't the case: what's wrong with that? Why would a few million people that want to form a sovereign state have to be held hostage by the others just because they're wealthier?

It depends. Is Catalonia rich because the federal government pumped money and resources into it? If so, then I would say yes, it's wrong to try to break off.

But, if Catalonia is rich due to their own industriousness, and effectively prop up other parts of the nation by sending more of their own money to the federal government, then no, I don't think there is a problem with trying to break off.

They were basically granted monopolies by law, and it's industry priorized over other regions, when not directly pouring money into it. That was while the spanish little industrial revolution and even the francoist regime.

Sorry, but this is not fully true. Catalonia has had a long story as merchants and as a prosperous land for most of its story. Specially Barcelona. It was not Franco who promoted businesses there. It would be utterly unfair to say so.

Further, the current investment of Spain's government is far beyond expected. Key infrastructures like railway, airports and ports. If Catalonia represents 19% of the GDP and 16% of population is nowadays receiving in a sustained manner 8% of the country investment.

Said that, I don't have anything to argue against the terrible situations other regions suffered from. But this should not diminish the dynamic economy in Catalonia, which would be unfair to relate to Franco.

> If Catalonia represents 19% of the GDP and 16% of population is nowadays receiving in a sustained manner 8% of the country investment.

That does not mean anything now is it ? The problem is to know if 8% is enough or not. And even if it is not enough, is there anything in the 92 other percent that is unreasonably spent ?

For example I pay way more in tax than I receive from the State. Is it a problem ? It depends: I'm not sick or in trouble there is nothing that the state can really do for me. If I were sick then I would like to receive some of my money back in healthcare. The amount should be the same than to anyone with similar problem. If I receive less, then and only then I have room for complain.

Here in the UK, the North complain about just the opposite: how much money is on already wealthy region, completely neglecting the crumbling infrastructure outside the South-East.

As a german i find the economic reasons of "why should we pay for the poor people" highly ironic...

That's what we all founded europe for... stronger together!

No the treaties that led to the EU were to prevent Germany and France having huge destructive wars every 20-50 years - something it has done very well so far.

EU was formed for opening up the market in a way that the economic benefit will be more for richer countries. In return, there are many benefits for other countries, but lifting up poor country was not that much of an aim.

you don't find it so ironic when southern europe buys bmws :)

As long as the part that wants to split is also willing to take a fair share of the national debt, I don't see anything amoral with it.

> suddenly wants to split off?

Suddenly?

HN is always good for massively-ignorant-grand-political-statements-from-first-principles theatre.

So why does Spain deserve Catalonia's money any more than any other country? Why shouldn't France get it or a poor African country?

Because Catalonia was granted monopolies and a lot of economical favours by law in the last centuries, eve when it was detrimental for other regions, like it was with the textile industry, car manufacturing and so on.

Sources please.

I agree with you that the wealth inequality is an issue.

But I also find it amoral for anyone to try to stop someone else from ruling themselves.

It would seem a large part of the problem is the morality of strongly enforcing strong property rights in itself.

In other words, if you see the wealth inequality as sufficiently amoral, then that should not be enough to stop independence, but there might perhaps be worthwhile arguments over what terms to negotiate independence on.

But it is harder to have sympathy when Spain as a whole has not done more to redress that wealth imbalance earlier.

"by mere chance"

Is that your opinion, or do the Catalonians and people outside Spain agree?

It's like saying that the Industrial Revolution started in England by mere chance. In a way it's true, but does that mean that England has a moral obligation to share its wealth with the rest of the world?

Does being conveniently located to trade on the Mediterranean sea count as chance or not?

Valencia is also in the same line, but there is a dirty secret that nobody wants to hear and much less admit.

Franco, being the same horrible dictator that killed a lot of innocent people, favoured actively Catalonia's economy over other provinces, for decades.

Is true that he discouraged them to speak in Catalonian language, but also discouraged people to speak in Galician language (and Franco was born in Galicia). At the same time give them priority in the efforts to rebuild industry and infraestructures after the civil war. Catalonia is richest than other parts of Spain, in part because Franco wanted 1) having a cluster of industries next European frontiers and roads to trade and obtain foreign divises easily, 2) money from tourism 3) conjurate the revolts giving the area a special silk-hand treatment after the first iron years passed.

Specially in the late stages of franquism, a massive exodus of workers from other parts of Spain migrated and stablished in Catalonia atracted by the favourable conditions to work and live and the "smell of freedom".

I'm aware that this counts as black heressy for millions of young people in the area, but well... nobody will stop them to read history books about post-war if they want. Ask your grandpa. Everybody in Spain has an uncle or some cousins in Barcelona.

Oppression is not something allowing you to became one of the more modern and rich places in the country; oppresion, to me, is what happened to Extremadura in the same period for example.

Valencia was one of the places I was hinting at (although I suppose they removed the river that originally made it a convenient place for a port).

Anyway, I wasn't completely aware of that part of the history, thanks.

That said I don't quite agree that Catalonia wasn't oppressed. I'm not qualified to say which regions were oppressed the most, but economic prosperity isn't the opposite of oppression. If anything the real dark truth is that oppressive authoritarian dictatorships can be quite effective, and even prosperous.

Other regions were oppressed AND kept down economically. There was even innovators, like Barreiros, a galician-born car and truck manufacturing brand that was cut off from growing more because of SEAT, that had quite a big impact in Catalonia, in terms of capital flows, jobs etc.

This is true. Galicia has been continuously kept down since centuries so that Madrid could take the spotlight.

Part of my family is Galician, I'm Portuguese myself. Still, instead of breaking Spain apart I would actually prefer to see the whole of Iberia working together as a union.

The main problem seems to be where the capital would be placed since only Castilians would want Madrid. I only wish that we could agree on a small but memorable place like Santiago de Compostela as centre for that union.

Fragmented even more, our Iberia has little voting power in regards to negotiating with France and Germany in the European Union. If Catalunya has to separate, so let it be. In the end of the day we are all together on the same boat, can only wish that we could row together too.

I still think an Iberian federation is possible in the future. The main impediment IMHO is that the Castillian/Spanish political leaders - and hence probably their voters - never understood the multi-national nature of this gorgeous peninsula. Mediterranean greetings my fellow Iberian :)

Castella follows a model similar to France in regards to centralization, where Madrid should be central to Iberia. Other regions openly refuse (or reluctantly conform) to that location since they know that Madrid will mostly only serve its own interests.

This was the reason why Portugal split from a joint Spanish kingdom centuries ago.

Then we should see the foreign interests. France and UK profit from fragmentation in Iberia. Smaller countries are easier to place against each other instead of being an economical threat to them. Portugal remains a strong UK ally over the centuries while Spain sides with France, and now further fragmented as Madrid doesn't open the hand to a decentralized model.

Really sad. People in Iberia consider themselves more or less as part of the same family (which is true to large extent). We should be working together.

>As an outsider, it's strange that nobody here seems to question whether the referendum really makes sense.

I think now that the referendum has started it should be really obvious why Catalonia doesn't want to be a part of Spain.

Just look at twitter being filled with imagery of Spanish riot police beating up kids and old people while trying to stop the vote.

https://twitter.com/SERCatalunya/status/914390058383413248/p... https://twitter.com/naciopolitica/status/914383283718410240 https://twitter.com/ThIsCatalonia

Who would want to live in a country where the government sends an army of masked thugs to violently attack people who are doing nothing criminal?

Yes. You are right. Spanish government has failed miserably, just look at the images.

The next obvious step will be end-to-end auditable voting systems.

>Forgetting about Catalonia for a moment, isn't it fundamentally amoral that a part of the country where prosperity has (by mere chance) concentrated suddenly wants to split off? Isn't this taking wealth-inequality to the next level?

Nope. There's nothing "sudden" about Catalonia splitting off. Franco went out of his way to incentivize it, and while the governments that followed him haven't been genocidal, they haven't exactly encouraged anyone to remain.

Of course it sucks for Spain, but they very much made their own bed.

I don't think it's about the money, but about having a different culture that's not being respected by the central government. I've recently read about a lot of (very reasonable sounding) Catalan decisions that got blocked or reversed by Madrid.

With this referendum too, this article gives me the impression that it might be Madrid's unreasonable reaction to it that might really drive the independence here. With this kind of response, I don't blame the Catalans for wanting independence at all.

The part that makes it even more confusing for me is that their party, Podemos, is a real left party which you'd expect to be against increasing income inequality.

I expect that the situation in Spain is much more complex than we give it credit for.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Podemos_(Spanish_political_par...

EDIT: added link, changed "socialist" to "left"

Podemos is a national level party and they are pro-referendum only, they do not have a strong position on independence.

Downvoted because "their" is a very misleading word. Podemos is not particularly Catalan.

Thank you for the correction.

Lots of left flavored parties are for "income equality, except for foreigners"

PVV in the Netherlands or Dansk Folkeparti in Denmark come to mind. I don't know enough about Podemos to know where to put them, but there's nothing contradicting about left leaning parties and nationalism.

For the the record: your position here is really fringe as far as the science goes. Most political science analysts agree that both PVV [1]and DF [2] are right-wing populists, not 'left-flavored' at all. See the very first line in both of the Wikipedia articles. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Party_for_Freedom (PVV) [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danish_People%27s_Party (DF)

Well the article on DF also says "While overall considered part of the radical right, its policies on most economic issues would rather place the party in the centre to centre-left."

We try to squeeze too much meaning into the 1-dimensional "left-right" that it really doesn't mean anything at all.

As a note: Podemos isn't a Catalan-only party, it's national.

Ironically I suspect that many small selfish islands who are members of a larger union may be the best way to reduce inequality.

It's immoral to forcibly drag people down when they'd do better on their own. The crab mentality is awful.

> It's immoral to forcibly drag people down when they'd do better on their own

Will really do?

There is a group of people that mainly buy the Catalonian products. Guess who? well this is embarrassing, the evil non-catalonian spaniards. It seems that they forgot to mention it or include such small fact in their economic big plans for a brighter future (without your main clients).

This is bussiness almost becoming pure radical art. They are publicly declaring that will not stand a minute more in the same room as the scumbags that buy their products and support their families. "Keep walking customer, there is nothing to see here".

It is true if by "fly like an eagle of finances" you mean "sink as a rock full of crabs", of course.

>Of course the people in a prosperous part of the country want to split off. Absolute democracy seems to result in an undesirable situation, because do we really want to live in a world that converges towards little selfish islands?

Did you ever consider the possibility that maybe the people in Catalonia somehow work harder/smarter/better than in the other regions of Spain? In which case the rest of Spain would be the selfish ones, wanting to mooch off Catalonia, just like a lazy brother always nagging his richer brother for money. In my experience, often when Person A calls Person B selfish, it's because Person A expects Person B to do something for Person A without Person A doing anything back in return, which to me seems particularly selfish.

Well, if you know a bit about the economical history of Spain you could clearly see what happend here, which is not a case of selfishness but planned economy, keeping some regions down in favour of others.

The ones that oppose the referendum also do it for selfish reasons. They don't want to lose something that in their view belongs to them.

> The ones that oppose the referendum also do it for selfish reasons. They don't want to lose something that in their view belongs to them.

Is not so complicated to understand. Spanish constitution grants clearly and explicitly that all citizens co-own the country and (unless this right is retired for things like committing a crime and losing their freedom) they can benefit of the use of any public space. The ramblas are also mine, as from millions of other people. Not, is not "my point of view", and not, is not "debatable". All Catalonian people are also co-owners of Doñana and this is not debatable either (not even in the hypothetical case that the current and temporal president of Catalonia wouldn't stand Andalucia).

They will lose this rights, and many other, because somebody is starting flames every day and acting as a troll for fun and profit since years

What was happened in Spain was just tyranny of a minority using people, women, elder and children as human shields with the purpose to steal people from their rights, by any means. Some people came from their home with urns closed and loaded with ballots, before voting. I ask you, second-person plural, was it funny to use your computer skills helping scammers to commit a big fraud?. Sorry, but I can't see where is the fun. Some people got beaten and there is a man in the hospital with a severely damaged eye.

What you would expect from the police in case that somebody would announce that, for a small ramson, will not distroy unilaterally the future, bussiness and current rights of millions of non-independentist people in 48 hours? Would you negociate and pay?

To fight for your constitutional rights and for the respect to the law is to fight by saving the society from falling into the law of the jungle. Is the opposite to "being selfish" and benefits everybody.