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Re:Facebook Faces a New World as Officials Rein in a Wild Web by AlexandrB on Tuesday September 19, 2017 @03:17PM (#15287924)
I find that the headline and the article mischaracterizes what is happening. The "Wild Web" was reigned in long ago by commercial interests. A distributed web with many small nodes would still be hard to control and police effectively. However as much the web has been centralized by the likes of Google, Facebook, and large media conglomerates effective government censorship is once again possible.

This is like a wild meadow turning to a manicured lawn. The near-monoculture of the web will have a much harder time withstanding legal assault by state actors than a distributed web would have.

Re:Facebook Faces a New World as Officials Rein in a Wild Web by skybrian on Tuesday September 19, 2017 @05:03PM (#15288781)
The wild Internet is definitely still there. The problem is that it got too hostile for most users due to spam, viruses, malware, phishing, trolls, doxing, and so on. It will get worse, as attackers adopt machine learning techniques and automate social engineering at scale.

So users have a problem. Companies that solved it the right way became enormous, because protection from all that crap is something people want, and they want it to be easy to use. In the early days it was anti-spam (Gmail). More recently, Snapchat helped teens avoid creating a permanent record of things.

Sure, you can go outside the walls at any time, but how many people really want to? The way to win users is to provide better protection than before, including defenses against new privacy threats, not to somehow convince people they don't need to care about it.

Sometimes providing better protection results in more freedom (of a sort). For example, a well-maintained app store means users don't have to worry about malware and viruses, so they can download whatever games they want without worrying that they'll infect their machine. This wasn't true of Windows in the old days.

Ironically, the web started out pretty safe (or so we thought) and degraded as more adtech came along. These days you can hardly click on a link without getting ads in your face. There's opportunity for someone.

Re:Facebook Faces a New World as Officials Rein in a Wild Web by int_19h on Tuesday September 19, 2017 @10:57PM (#15290435)
The result, though, is not actual privacy protection. It's more that you choose to surrender your privacy to someone, in exchange for protection from other nasties.

It's almost like some kind of weird digital feudalism. You're free to come and go, and if you want, you can live in the wild and take your chances. But if you want the safety of the walls and armed defenders, that comes with a lot of strings attached. And if you ever want to move out of those walls, you leave your plot and your house, with everything valuable on them, behind.

Re:Facebook Faces a New World as Officials Rein in a Wild Web by skybrian on Wednesday September 20, 2017 @12:18AM (#15290817)
Well, "feudalism" is an exaggeration since you can belong to as many as you want, and sharing some things (such as republishing links) is not hard.

But there is always going to be some kind of a speedbump when sharing between places with different policies. When you have borders between things that are genuinely different (even if they're gratuitous differences), you have border issues. Bigger social networks mean you reach more people without going over a border, which encourages growth.

Borders are everywhere. In the enterprise space, you can look at the growth of Amazon and Google Cloud. In devtools, each programming language tends to be its own domain. (Which is why we call them "foreign" functions.)

Re:Facebook Faces a New World as Officials Rein in a Wild Web by int_19h on Wednesday September 20, 2017 @04:26AM (#15291704)
> Well, "feudalism" is an exaggeration since you can belong to as many as you want, and sharing some things (such as republishing links) is not hard.

I'll grant you the first part, but sharing is actually a lot harder than it used to be, these days. Try sharing a Facebook post or comment with someone who doesn't have a Facebook account...

> In devtools, each programming language tends to be its own domain. (Which is why we call them "foreign" functions.)

True, but we also develop FFI as a way to call those foreign functions, and meta-frameworks to enable cross-language interop (WinRT being the most recent prominent example of such). Worst case, you can use standard formats and protocols to at least exchange data. Whereas "walled gardens" tend to be deliberately hard to interop with, or even to extract your existing data from.

Re:Facebook Faces a New World as Officials Rein in a Wild Web by ouid on Tuesday September 19, 2017 @07:20PM (#15289580)
>Snapchat helped teens avoid creating a permanent record of things.

Why isn't Snapchat more popular than Instagram? I assumed that it was the case that more people have stage fright than don't. Is this a faulty assumption, or are people just acting in defiance of this fear?

Re:Facebook Faces a New World as Officials Rein in a Wild Web by odammit on Tuesday September 19, 2017 @08:46PM (#15289925)
Not to be old, but I had many friends get into Snapchat for a hot minute. My wife and I never did. Instagram let us share photos. Snapchat seemed like just gimmicky cat ears and showboating. The platform very much feels like "look at me" not "hey I had this cool experience and I want to share it."

Full disclosure: I bought a bunch of snapchat stock at the bottom because I fully invest in the self-centeredness of humankind. Worked great w/ FB.

Re:Facebook Faces a New World as Officials Rein in a Wild Web by rovek on Wednesday September 20, 2017 @08:42AM (#15293073)
From a user perspective, validated only by other engineer-friends, Snapchat is a pretty sketchy app.

The UX diverges from common design principles of both major mobile OS, making it feel awkward. The app slaughters batteries in Android phones, occasionally you can actually watch the % drop.

That's not to say it isn't popular, wildly so in younger users, Instagram just has more ad value because of its maturity (reportable metrics) and unbridled desire to be an ad platform.

Re:Facebook Faces a New World as Officials Rein in a Wild Web by sharno on Tuesday September 19, 2017 @08:26PM (#15289854)
Instagram became more famous because it had the same feature of self deleting posts with a user base. Also people would rather use 1 app for doing everything (posting permanent posts or temporary ones) rather than use many apps. That's why WeChat is became huge too
Re:Facebook Faces a New World as Officials Rein in a Wild Web by adiabatty on Tuesday September 19, 2017 @07:23PM (#15289592)
Instagram has auto-deleting photo streams now, I hear.
Re:Facebook Faces a New World as Officials Rein in a Wild Web by mirimir on Wednesday September 20, 2017 @01:41AM (#15291097)
> The wild Internet is definitely still there.

It was there before Eternal September. And yes, it's still there, and far richer than it's ever been.

> The problem is that it got too hostile for most users due to spam, viruses, malware, phishing, trolls, doxing, and so on.

It's arguably those mainstream users who are problematic. In large part, they're the trolls. And the ones who are trolled, of course. And they're the bloody flesh in the water that's attracted all the sharks.

> It will get worse, as attackers adopt machine learning techniques and automate social engineering at scale.

No doubt.

> Sure, you can go outside the walls at any time, but how many people really want to?

Anyone with any sense will. The rest can have their AOL/CompuServe experience. And good riddance.

Re:Facebook Faces a New World as Officials Rein in a Wild Web by kayoone on Wednesday September 20, 2017 @02:08AM (#15291194)
> It's arguably those mainstream users who are problematic

That sounds a bit ignorant. Those mainstream users are the vast majority, they make a lot of internet business models worthwhile and made the internet the success that it is. Of course they also attract sharks as you rightfully say, but we should try to improve their experiences instead of denying them any sense or intelligence and putting them in walled gardens.

Re:Facebook Faces a New World as Officials Rein in a Wild Web by indigochill on Wednesday September 20, 2017 @08:59AM (#15293220)
I'm curious what you propose to improve their experiences.

I think you need walled gardens for mainstream users. The reason is that the weakest link in any security system is people. Especially normal, pleasant, trusting, non-confrontational people. People like my grandparents, who just install whatever a guy who claims to be tech support tells them to install.

Should people like my grandparents have a good experience on the internet? Absolutely. Can they have it without taking away all their freedom to make mistakes? I don't see how. Any freedom we give them will be exploited by the sharks. Education is a good thing which can make them more shark-resistant, but not everyone will take it upon themselves to be educated.

Re:Facebook Faces a New World as Officials Rein in a Wild Web by mirimir on Wednesday September 20, 2017 @02:22AM (#15291245)
> internet business models

Many idealists considered that a ridiculous idea.

Re:Facebook Faces a New World as Officials Rein in a Wild Web by wickawic on Wednesday September 20, 2017 @03:55AM (#15291601)
And many didn't. Weasel words abound.
Re:Facebook Faces a New World as Officials Rein in a Wild Web by mirimir on Wednesday September 20, 2017 @04:34AM (#15291738)
Do you deny that commercialization of the Internet in the mid 1990s was controversial?
Re:Facebook Faces a New World as Officials Rein in a Wild Web by mirimir on Wednesday September 20, 2017 @02:32PM (#15296849)
OK, I gotta repeat this dead comment, because it's so good:

> Incredibly so. But I have realized that the large majority of Internet users today have no point of reference to that time because they were either not alive, where very small children, or weren't paying any attention to what was going on. But for a brief time, humanity was being uplifted instead of being loaded onto digital cattle cars. There truly is a threat here--technocracy is turning America into a gulag and it needs to stop. No, I am not kidding. It's not just the Internet, it's all the companies collecting massive data "to better serve us" that are creating the . chains.

> I'm just glad I experienced that early period. Sunsite at UNC was the greatest. There were many true humanitarians back then. Today, we have the growing evil of Google and the Never-Was-Anything-But-Evil Facebook!

Yeah, it's been very sad to see possibility crushed, and people pervasively surveilled and manipulated.

Re:Facebook Faces a New World as Officials Rein in a Wild Web by justinmk on Tuesday September 19, 2017 @04:17PM (#15288414)
> A distributed web with many small nodes would still be hard to control and police effectively.

I would guess that today's distributed web (IPFS, etc.) has more content, and users, than the "wild web" of 1992 or whatever era you fondly recollect.

Yes, centralized players created tools that produced exponentially more content (and control). But it's lazy to blame that peripheral phenomenon for a perceived "loss".

The wild web still exists, and has the potential to grow (cf. Urbit). What's stopping it?

Re:Facebook Faces a New World as Officials Rein in a Wild Web by cookiecaper on Tuesday September 19, 2017 @04:48PM (#15288668)
IPFS is stopped by its insistence on things that are considered anti-features by non-cryptopunks, like immutability.

There's a lot of promise behind the "distributed web" or "P2P web" prototypes, but they haven't been effectively commoditized, and their value proposition over the top-level "spyweb" isn't strong enough for normal users who don't understand the inner workings. In fact, they tend to offer less end-user benefit, since a P2P web is necessarily slower as peers negotiate connections, deal with vaporizing peers, etc.

Consumers care only about getting their desires fulfilled as quickly and easily as possible. If you want a new web to dominate, you must make something that gives the consumers and/or the companies upstream from them an incentive to exert the effort to change.

Personally, I believe the web is already sufficiently "decentralized" in the necessary sense. We just have legal restrictions that prevent true competition with the tech conglomerates, as they're allowed to effectively claim exclusive domain over all user-generated content.

There's no reason I shouldn't be able to go to NewGoog or NewFace and multiplex in the available data streams hosted by the web nodes at google.com and facebook.com, except that this violates the CFAA and the Copyright Act, and Google and Facebook can and will sue you to make you stop. This is the primary constraint that has led to the recentralization of the web.

What do you expect when you make it a crime to send any type of undesired communication to a server? The CFAA doesn't just prevent harmful or disruptive access, but all unauthorized access. In practice, this is almost always used to stymie small innovators who are putting the data from a data source like Facebook to better use.

This is fundamentally anti-competitive, and again, it's no wonder that the web is coalescing into the hands of a few central controllers. It has never been more apparent that the user is the product being sold and peddled.

We need to reorient our perspective of the internet with users, not services, as the central entity, and give them full control over the data that they generate. Then, the user will be free again, without the need for complex P2P solutions.

Re:Facebook Faces a New World as Officials Rein in a Wild Web by StavrosK on Tuesday September 19, 2017 @08:04PM (#15289761)
I don't know, I think IPFS has at least a good few use cases. For example, it's great for posting censorship-resistant content, and I wrote something to do just that: http://ipfessay.stavros.io/

There are also things like OpenBazaar and a whole host of other applications running on IPFS that are quite useful. Sure, it may not be mainstream, but nothing starts out being mainstream.

Re:Facebook Faces a New World as Officials Rein in a Wild Web by didip on Tuesday September 19, 2017 @08:33PM (#15289882)
I have always wondered about IPFS and its relationship with DNS.

What's stopping authoritarian entity from poisoning/redirecting ipfs.io to static page?

Re:Facebook Faces a New World as Officials Rein in a Wild Web by detaro on Tuesday September 19, 2017 @08:39PM (#15289895)
Nothing, but that would hopefully primarily encourage people to set up IPFS clients themselves instead of relying on the public bridge.

(Which is IMHO one of the weaknesses of IPFS, that they haven't made that more prominent/easier, through browser plugins or a dedicated IPFS-browser. Compare to e.g. the publicity boost Dat got from Beaker Browser)

Re:Facebook Faces a New World as Officials Rein in a Wild Web by StavrosK on Tuesday September 19, 2017 @08:50PM (#15289938)
This is a very nice Chrome extension:

https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/ipfs-station/kckhg...

It'll redirect all IPFS URLs to your local daemon.

Re:Facebook Faces a New World as Officials Rein in a Wild Web by detaro on Tuesday September 19, 2017 @08:56PM (#15289962)
Ohh, interesting, that seems to have most of the things I was looking for. Not sure why I missed it when I went looking for one recently. Thanks!
Re:Facebook Faces a New World as Officials Rein in a Wild Web by StavrosK on Tuesday September 19, 2017 @09:15PM (#15290033)
No problem, I had missed it too but someone here pointed me to it. I wish we had one for Firefox as well!
Re:Facebook Faces a New World as Officials Rein in a Wild Web by throwanem on Wednesday September 20, 2017 @05:53AM (#15292044)
What stops that one from running in Firefox? I haven't dug into its code, but nothing in its description or screenshots looks like the FF web extension implementation shouldn't support it. I mean, it's just a little chrome, a content script doing link rewrites, and an occasional HTTP request to fetch status info, yeah?
Re:Facebook Faces a New World as Officials Rein in a Wild Web by StavrosK on Wednesday September 20, 2017 @06:52AM (#15292326)
Nothing stops it, I guess it's just that nobody has bothered to make one yet. It's works exactly as you describe, though, pretty simple.
Re:Facebook Faces a New World as Officials Rein in a Wild Web by throwanem on Wednesday September 20, 2017 @07:11AM (#15292435)
https://www.ghacks.net/2016/05/23/install-google-chrome-exte... might be worth a look. Haven't tried it, but the claim is that it mechanically transforms Chrome extension metadata and containers into Firefox's formats, and supports automatic signing via AMO for permanent installation. Assuming that, the rest should Just Work modulo possibly still incomplete WebEx API support in Firefox. If you try it, I wouldn't mind hearing how you get on.
Re:Facebook Faces a New World as Officials Rein in a Wild Web by StavrosK on Wednesday September 20, 2017 @02:44PM (#15296957)
Holy hell, it just worked! That's amazing, thank you for that. I bet it helps that the extension is just redirecting and collecting stats, but everything seems to work fine!
Re:Facebook Faces a New World as Officials Rein in a Wild Web by throwanem on Wednesday September 20, 2017 @03:16PM (#15297236)
That's great to hear! Most welcome, and glad to know there's a plausible option - with the rapid deprecation of the old API, this might save a lot of time. (I can't rely on replacing all my old extensions with shell oneliners, after all...)
Re:Facebook Faces a New World as Officials Rein in a Wild Web by StavrosK on Tuesday September 19, 2017 @08:50PM (#15289942)
Nothing, but what does it matter? There are loads of public gateways. I run one at https://www.eternum.io. Also, running your own node is trivial.
Re:Facebook Faces a New World as Officials Rein in a Wild Web by mirimir on Wednesday September 20, 2017 @12:55AM (#15290952)
It's pretty trivial to run an IPFS gateway as a Tor hidden service. Also IPFS branches into Tor OnionCat's IPv6 /64. And nodes that link resources between clearnet and OnionCat /64. Or any other overlay network.
Re:Facebook Faces a New World as Officials Rein in a Wild Web by Gaelan on Tuesday September 19, 2017 @08:26PM (#15289855)
IPNS is a layer on top of IPFS that allows mutability.
Re:Facebook Faces a New World as Officials Rein in a Wild Web by scrumper on Tuesday September 19, 2017 @03:23PM (#15287980)
And, to complete the thought, the behavior of those corporate centralizers has rendered it politically acceptable for the government to do so.
Re:Facebook Faces a New World as Officials Rein in a Wild Web by vkou on Tuesday September 19, 2017 @04:23PM (#15288452)
Censoring speech has been politically acceptable for every single Western government, besides the US^, since at least WWII.

It has not yet brought about the collapse of civilization, or a descent into despotism.

^ It has also taken place in the US, but to a different extent.

Re:Facebook Faces a New World as Officials Rein in a Wild Web by hnaccy on Tuesday September 19, 2017 @09:20PM (#15290042)
>It has not yet brought about the collapse of civilization, or a descent into despotism.

That's quite a short time scale.

Re:Facebook Faces a New World as Officials Rein in a Wild Web by bogomipz on Tuesday September 19, 2017 @10:17PM (#15290264)
>"The "Wild Web" was reigned in long ago by commercial interests."

Perhaps, but the "reigning in" referenced in the title is now being done by commercial interests at the request of governments in exchange for staying in those government's good graces.

Re:Facebook Faces a New World as Officials Rein in a Wild Web by jxramos on Tuesday September 19, 2017 @05:32PM (#15289020)
what a concept, the diversity fitness of the web to various forms of assault. Good thinking.
Re:Facebook Faces a New World as Officials Rein in a Wild Web by outoftacos on Tuesday September 19, 2017 @04:13PM (#15288374)
This is par for the course for the NYT, the noble corporations are painted as heroes keeping us safe from the dirty wildlings who are about to topple the wall any day now.

They do the same thing with many (large) companies, the State Department, all military/intelligence branches, etc. It's how you get access, and they seem more willing to play ball and churn out these puff pieces over doing real journalism than anyone. The Times is the most prominent example of this pattern, but it's becoming more and pervasive.

Re:Facebook Faces a New World as Officials Rein in a Wild Web by banku_brougham on Tuesday September 19, 2017 @04:28PM (#15288490)
Washington Post all the way. I still read it, but NYT often disappoints me when I already know something about the subject. New Yorker is good, but not science sections. The NYT Cassini coverage was good.

edit: I mistakenly put Wash Times. Yehowa.

Re:Facebook Faces a New World as Officials Rein in a Wild Web by outoftacos on Tuesday September 19, 2017 @06:22PM (#15289330)
Yeah I still think the NYT has the best science coverage out there, but business and tech has become such a joke over the past 20 years it's not even worth checking.
Re:Facebook Faces a New World as Officials Rein in a Wild Web by pferde on Wednesday September 20, 2017 @02:14AM (#15291214)
I wonder if scientists reading NYT articles that cover their own fields think the same.
Re:Facebook Faces a New World as Officials Rein in a Wild Web by addHocker on Wednesday September 20, 2017 @08:43AM (#15293077)
Actually governments walling the internet in, results in lots of smaller local alternatives due to protectionism.

Which might- if freedom is allowed to fluctuate- may result in competition. Look at chinas weechat

Re:Facebook Faces a New World as Officials Rein in a Wild Web by yahna on Tuesday September 19, 2017 @05:58PM (#15289182)
Not just censorship, manipulation.

I don't trust any government to censor, but we know the russians engaged in shady tactics already.