News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Underestimating the power of Jeff Bezos by michaelt on Monday September 18, 2017 @08:36AM (#15275282)

  It was at that awkward moment that Amazon decided that it
  would punish the New Republic. Our ad sales department
  received a note, informing us that Amazon would be yanking
  its advertising for its new political comedy, Alpha House.
  The missive left nothing to the imagination. “In light of
  the cover article about Amazon, Amazon has decided to
  terminate the Alpha House campaign currently running on
  the New Republic. Please confirm receipt of this email and
  that the campaign has been terminated.” It was signed,
  “Team Amazon.”
This is one of the reasons I really wish there was a decent, widely supported micropayment system for journalism.

So long as journalists' jobs depend on the ad money coming in, companies can use that leverage to get negative stories spiked. Amazon is one example in this article; HSBC with The Telegraph (and other newspapers) is another [1].

If we want to avoid this disease spreading, we really need some way to pay journalists that doesn't rely on corporate largess.

[1] https://www.theguardian.com/media/2015/feb/17/peter-oborne-t...

Re:Underestimating the power of Jeff Bezos by arjie on Monday September 18, 2017 @09:11AM (#15275517)
I think people will find any way to simultaneously not pay for news while lamenting the lack of good news. Things will just be forever "almost there" and "all we need is" but no one's going to do it. Micropayments aren't going to work. People will say "if only it were 10 cents instead of 20" or "if only it were 1 cent instead of 10" until it's "if only this used Bitcoin so they don't know who I am" and so on and so forth until the publisher refuses to bow to some onerous request at which point it'll be this big deal about how they don't really care about their users.

I mean, the guy who solves this is going to be rich, but you only have to see about the complaints to Flattr, Patreon, etc. and you know no one else wants to touch this. The audience's Revealed Preferences are significantly different from their Stated Preferences.

Re:Underestimating the power of Jeff Bezos by cphoover on Monday September 18, 2017 @10:24AM (#15276203)
People thought that about music services "No one will ever pay!" When we have P2P They said. Facilitating easy access to any available content without needing to think, proved it could be done. The key is variety, quality, and convenience.

If I had access to multiple a la cart choices (NYT, WaPo, Baltimore Sun (local), Politico, WSJ... etc. In any different formats (audio podcast, digital). If there was a nice app for curating a playlist of stories, bookmarking, playback controls. I would definitely pay for such a news service.

Re:Underestimating the power of Jeff Bezos by jasode on Monday September 18, 2017 @11:31AM (#15276771)
>People thought that about music services "No one will ever pay!"

The jury is still out for businesses that depend on people paying for digital music. Both digital streaming services of Spotify and Pandora have been losing money since their inception. Apple's iTunes digital downloads of music declined 14% in 2015. Its peak sales was 2012. There are even some industry whispers that Apple may someday drop iTunes music sales altogether since the shrinking revenues won't be worth their attention.

Nobody knows the future but the above trends may mean that digital music sales could eventually go the same way as encyclopedias: free. Not enough people are willing to pay for digital music. They still pay for live concerts though. If that's the remaining sustainable business, musicians would have to earn income from performances ... or licensing deals.

>I would definitely pay for such a news service.

Yes, but there may not be enough people like you. When people say, "no one" will pay, they don't literally mean "zero" payers. Instead, they mean "not enough" will pay.

Re:Underestimating the power of Jeff Bezos by WalterSear on Monday September 18, 2017 @11:42AM (#15276869)
Moreover, none of these services would exist if it weren't for the artists and labels capitulating and licensing their products for penurious rates.
Re:Underestimating the power of Jeff Bezos by sbarre on Monday September 18, 2017 @01:01PM (#15277561)
Yeaaah I think this is a weird position to take.

The market for music is correcting from a time when publishers acted as artificial hit-makers and rent-seekers and imposed a monopoly on the distribution of music, and a small select group of artists got rich in the process (and we all paid many times over for the same content as formats changed).

It "corrected" too far for a while with piracy, that exploded as a reaction to a bad market, but now with Apple Music, Spotify and other subscription services, we have achieved "better than free" for those of us who are willing to pay a fair price for a good service.

Today's system may pay less at the top (and in the middle) but it pays out to way more people overall who can now more realistically make a living as musicians.

Speaking only anecdotally, I personally know of 3 bands who now make enough money with digital royalties + occasional touring to live a "typically middle-class lifestyle".

They would never have been able to do this back in the major labels + physical distribution days..

I guess to bring this back on-topic, I think there would be a market for someone to provide intuitive, personalized and multi-source access to high-quality news articles and investigative journalism..

Re:Underestimating the power of Jeff Bezos by WalterSear on Monday September 18, 2017 @01:22PM (#15277732)
"Average per-stream payout: $0.004891"

https://www.digitalmusicnews.com/2016/05/26/band-1-million-s...

"If you’re trying to live off your Spotify spins, stop it right now.

Taylor Swift makes $400,000 off Spotify in a weekend. But nearly everyone else making bubkes. Which means if you’re hoping to making streaming your breadwinner, you’re probably snacking on crumbs."

https://www.digitalmusicnews.com/2017/06/21/spotify-million-...

I would hazard that, for the corporations that manufacture Taylor Swift, $400k is bubkes too.

Re:Underestimating the power of Jeff Bezos by vkou on Monday September 18, 2017 @02:09PM (#15278111)
Prior to streaming services, thanks to piracy, and not having money, I paid $0 for music in my life.

Over the past 5 years, I paid ~$500 for streaming subscriptions. It is incredibly unlikely that I would have bought $500 worth of albums in this time period. This is money that would have been left on the table.

What does half a cent per stream mean in this context? Half a cent per single song play? Per album play? How many cents do you pay per play to the artist for a song that you bought, instead of streamed?

Re:Underestimating the power of Jeff Bezos by WalterSear on Monday September 18, 2017 @03:13PM (#15278645)
It's half a cent per song play. Artists on record labels will be receiving a small percentage of that, independent artist will pocket most of the half penny, and consequently will get paid ~$480 for every 100,000 plays.

After $100 registration per album, on CDBaby, the artist receives 100% of the receipt. Bandcamp takes 15%. So, yes, there are ways to buy music in which an artist receives the money: we just don't choose to buy albums because streaming is cheaper and more convenient. But don't fool yourself: virtually none of the $500 you paid went to support the artists or further their work.

Re:Underestimating the power of Jeff Bezos by jtuente on Monday September 18, 2017 @02:52PM (#15278465)
> https://www.digitalmusicnews.com/2017/06/21/spotify-million-...

Over the course of 3 months (the last month had a whole 30 streams, so mostly ignoring it):

2 albums and 42 songs sold - $57.42

4.3 million songs streamed - $5077.87

The real take-away: All that streaming isn't translating into digital album/song sales.

Re:Underestimating the power of Jeff Bezos by WalterSear on Monday September 18, 2017 @03:18PM (#15278680)
I can't understand why anyone would expect it to. Why would anyone buy something you've already got? For most use cases, it's not even a essentially different format.
Re:Underestimating the power of Jeff Bezos by saalweachter on Monday September 18, 2017 @12:20PM (#15277189)
I don't think pay-per-item is a plausible model for news, because of click-bait.

Music works well, because you can preview a song, even hear it three or four times, but still want to own it. TV and movies you can have trailers and ongoing series and online reviews to decide which to buy.

But news will always be a leap of faith, and click-bait will always be an excellent (short-term) strategy. If I previewed a song on iTunes, and then bought it, and the remaining ~2 minutes of the song was just static, I would be furious; I would be on the phone with Apple to yell at them.

Re:Underestimating the power of Jeff Bezos by tmnvix on Monday September 18, 2017 @10:22PM (#15281304)
Many news sites limit readers to a few articles before throwing up the pay-wall. Usually that means paying $$ for an ongoing subscription (/m, /y). Maybe if you could make a /d or /w micropayment? You've already had an opportunity to sample a few articles so know what quality to expect.
Re:Underestimating the power of Jeff Bezos by mercer on Tuesday September 19, 2017 @06:41AM (#15283335)
Blendle allows you to get your money back. I've used it quite often and as a result I've spent more on news through Blendle than I've spent on news throughout my life. I think that model can be quite effective.
Re:Underestimating the power of Jeff Bezos by ctrl-j on Monday September 18, 2017 @10:43AM (#15276365)
> I would definitely pay for such a news service.

I think the question then becomes, how much are you willing to pay vs how much does such a service cost. Does the economy of scale factor in here? Right now most of those services ask for ~$10 a month. Expecting all of it for $10/month seems unlikely.

I could see a full service on-demand news service like that would (with the current pricing structure) run at least $50/month, which most people won't pay.

I think the music industry transitioned to streaming so well, because the recording companies were already dicking over the artists from the get-go.

Re:Underestimating the power of Jeff Bezos by GVIrish on Monday September 18, 2017 @12:11PM (#15277110)
> I think the question then becomes, how much are you willing to pay vs how much does such a service cost. Does the economy of scale factor in here? Right now most of those services ask for ~$10 a month. Expecting all of it for $10/month seems unlikely.

I see economy of scale as the key hold up here. A multi-source subscription that costs $10/month would be a no-brainer for a good number of subscribers but such an offering would immediately destroy the current subscriber base for publications like the NYT, Washington Post, Atlantic, etc. No one would continue to pay $10/month for one, when they could pay $10/month for all.

That would then mean that the $10/month all-you-can-eat plan would need to gain enough subscribers to offset the lost revenue from the old plan. Realistically it would have to result a 5 to 1 increase in new subscribers.

So you'd have to go back to an all-inclusive plan that is a discount over the individual plans but not a HUGE discount (let's say 20-35%). But then would that be compelling enough?

Re:Underestimating the power of Jeff Bezos by nfriedly on Monday September 18, 2017 @11:14AM (#15276624)
> I think the music industry transitioned to streaming so well, because the recording companies were already dicking over the artists from the get-go.

I'm sure that didn't hurt, but it was also helped by the fact that each song retains it's value long after creation - that's less true with news.

Re:Underestimating the power of Jeff Bezos by notyourwork on Monday September 18, 2017 @10:58AM (#15276491)
I don't think the music industry transitioned to streaming well at all. I think they were forced to which is different from your phrasing that implies they wanted to shift.
Re:Underestimating the power of Jeff Bezos by ctrl-j on Monday September 18, 2017 @11:21AM (#15276682)
I'll admit my phrasing gave them more credit than what is actually due.

It took about 10 years longer than it should have. I'm also pretty sure that if piracy was something that could be effectively stopped - they'd raise their rates a thousand-fold.

Re:Underestimating the power of Jeff Bezos by losteric on Monday September 18, 2017 @11:26AM (#15276731)
> Does the economy of scale factor in here?

Yes. Current pricing is based on the number of people paying for the provided service. The marginal cost per subscriber is negligible so it's fair to assume the price would go down if those services could attract more subscribers. It's also fair to assume subscriptions would increase if customers got access to more publications for the same price.

Re:Underestimating the power of Jeff Bezos by bigtunacan on Monday September 18, 2017 @11:17AM (#15276658)
But without hindsight doesn't expecting to see all the movies you want for ~$10 a month seem just as unlikely?
Re:Underestimating the power of Jeff Bezos by manigandham on Monday September 18, 2017 @11:32AM (#15276786)
Spotify has yet to prove profitability, or even viability, so far. The streaming music scene remains undecided for the long-term.

There's also a big difference between a 1-time reading of news in comparison to music which is often repeated, timeless and can have a deep impact on your life and memories.

Even if an easy news bundle service existed, the cost isnt the problem, it's the fact that society has become used to digital news being free - turning that around will be a massive effort.

Re:Underestimating the power of Jeff Bezos by jorvi on Monday September 18, 2017 @06:40PM (#15280329)
You are literally describing Blendle, which does this in NL. You can even link up digital newspaper subscriptions to it so you can read those articles for free!
Re:Underestimating the power of Jeff Bezos by mercer on Tuesday September 19, 2017 @06:42AM (#15283340)
I think they're in the process of rolling out in the US and Germany as well.
Re:Underestimating the power of Jeff Bezos by krisroadruck on Monday September 18, 2017 @10:36AM (#15276304)
This sorta already exists (Bendle) but I've found it underwhelming.
Re:Underestimating the power of Jeff Bezos by rb808 on Monday September 18, 2017 @10:21AM (#15276171)
Agreed - also see the number of people that block ads to get the news for free. How hard is it to have ads on the page?
Re:Underestimating the power of Jeff Bezos by joeblubaugh on Monday September 18, 2017 @11:08AM (#15276573)
I don't block ads to "get the news for free." I do it to marginally protect myself from an increasingly omnipresent surveillance apparatus that's tracking my entire path across the internet, across devices, as well as in the real world.
Re:Underestimating the power of Jeff Bezos by ma2rten on Monday September 18, 2017 @11:33AM (#15276790)
Safari is going to prevent ad tracking by not allowing cross domain cookies. Does that mean you are would use Safari instead when the feature is released?

https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2017/09/ad-industry-deep...

Re:Underestimating the power of Jeff Bezos by Animats on Monday September 18, 2017 @12:31PM (#15277293)
Safari is going to prevent ad tracking by not allowing cross domain cookies.

That's been an option in Firefox for years.[1]

[1] https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/enable-and-disable-cook...

Re:Underestimating the power of Jeff Bezos by Shikadi on Monday September 18, 2017 @11:01AM (#15276515)
It would be fine if advertisements weren't intrusive and obnoxious. I don't want to start reading a page, then three sentences in have my whole screen jump, then a few more sentences have an overlay pop up, then have some inline text that looks like it's part of the article but is actually an ad, finally to accidently mouse over some text that pops up a video with sound. That's how I experience much of the internet without ad blocking, not to mention how much slower things load. I disable on sites I frequent that don't do that.
Re:Underestimating the power of Jeff Bezos by ouid on Monday September 18, 2017 @01:51PM (#15277980)
they don't get paid for having you look at the ad, they get paid for having you interact with the ad. What you're really asking is "how hard is it to spend money on advertised products?" (after all, the value of advertising is exactly equal to the additional money you spend on advertised products as a result of the advertising, you can't claim to be adding value if that's not the case, by a trivial accounting argument)

I think I have a right not to spend money on advertised products as a rule. Some people are happy to spend money on advertised products. So many people, in fact, that the value I add by simply viewing your content and sharing it with society at large, that you still benefit from my interaction with your product with adblock active. Or it used to be before middlemen started sucking an ever increasing percentage of ad revenue away from content producers.

Ultimately your complaint is analogous to "some people go see free concerts, but don't buy 8 dollar beers". And, yeah, that's built into the business model.

Re:Underestimating the power of Jeff Bezos by hectorr1 on Monday September 18, 2017 @09:19AM (#15275591)
You're right - journalism has a broken and outdated business model. Amazon has a modern and effective one. To fix the problem, you need to fix this dynamic.

I get a lot the crypto hate you see around here, there are some real problems in the space right now. But facilitating micropayments for online content is extremely low hanging fruit with the tech, especially if the US tax exemption for txs under $600 goes through and browser integration happens.

Brave Browser / Basic Attention Token is one of the few groups in ICO-mania-land that is trying to solve a real problem, and they're focused on this one. It's led by Brendan Eich, former Mozilla CEO and original Netscape dev. Worth checking out if you are in publishing.

Re:Underestimating the power of Jeff Bezos by root_axis on Monday September 18, 2017 @10:42AM (#15276353)
The problem with crypto as a solution is that there isn't much money to be made from the pool of crypto users, they are a small niche and notoriously low spenders (a fact that anyone who has accepted bitcoin payments for legal products/services can attest to). Of course, more money is better than less money, however we're talking about a drop in the bucket, not a real solution for publishers. Finally, there's also a strong political ideology that tracks pretty well with crypto-users that would make it additionally prohibitive for many flavors of journalism.
Re:Underestimating the power of Jeff Bezos by Retric on Monday September 18, 2017 @10:57AM (#15276471)
Bitcoin can't directly do Micro payments, is there an Altcoin that can handle say 20 billion transactions a day?

If not then cripto currency's don't actually solve this problem.

Re:Underestimating the power of Jeff Bezos by bovermyer on Monday September 18, 2017 @09:51AM (#15275885)
Unfortunately, Brave is incompatible with the current business model of journalism, and I don't know if journalism can survive a war on multiple fronts - that is, a war on its pocketbook from the consumer side, and a war on its integrity from the government side.
Re:Underestimating the power of Jeff Bezos by Ajedi32 on Monday September 18, 2017 @10:20AM (#15276167)
It is? How so? As far as I can tell, sites don't need to change their business model at all; they can just start collecting payments from Brave in addition to their ad revenue from non-Brave users.

> Once a user enables Brave Payments, the Brave browser automatically and anonymously keeps track of the publisher sites each user visits. The more times that a user visits a site, the larger the proportion of the user’s monthly contribution is “ear-marked” for that publisher. These funds grow as new micropayments are added. When contributions for a publisher exceed $100.00 USD, an email is sent to both the webmaster of the site and the registered domain owner from your WHOIS information. The email explains how to verify the ownership of your website with Brave Software.

(See https://brave.com/publishers/)

I really like this implementation, because it avoids the chicken-egg problem that other solutions like Google Contributor have by not requiring the publisher's cooperation in order to work properly. Visitors on Brave don't see ads, period. Publishers can choose to collect money from Brave users if they want, but that doesn't change the experience from the user's point of view.

Re:Underestimating the power of Jeff Bezos by bovermyer on Monday September 18, 2017 @02:10PM (#15278122)
Brave blocks ads. If a user isn't using Brave Payments, then there is no replacement for that lost ad revenue.
Re:Underestimating the power of Jeff Bezos by supernumerary on Monday September 18, 2017 @01:02PM (#15277565)
Steem (https://www.steemit.com) is doing this. Basically a reddit clone with upvotes having value.
Re:Underestimating the power of Jeff Bezos by JustAnotherPat on Monday September 18, 2017 @10:30AM (#15276252)
I don't see how Brave/BAT solves this problem. There is no anonymity between publisher and advertiser on Brave. Amazon could just as easily pull ads on Brave.
Re:Underestimating the power of Jeff Bezos by guaka on Monday September 18, 2017 @09:43AM (#15275819)
https://satoshipay.io/ is another interesting project. (Disclaimer: I don't have any stake in the company but Meinhard is a friend of mine.)
Re:Underestimating the power of Jeff Bezos by zionic on Monday September 18, 2017 @09:45AM (#15275841)
Reading the grandparent comment I was thinking to myself that Brave is trying to fix just this. Seeing you beat me to this comment made me happy!

It's super fast and very modern. Much faster than the live release of FF

Re:Underestimating the power of Jeff Bezos by leppr on Monday September 18, 2017 @10:26AM (#15276220)
There's no relationship with Firefox. A better comparison would be between Brave and a vanilla Chromium + uBlock.
Re:Underestimating the power of Jeff Bezos by loceng on Monday September 18, 2017 @08:49AM (#15275357)
As much as I understand a journalist's raison d'etre (reason of being), they hold a lot of power when they can publish to a widespread readership.

This is great if everything is balanced and fair (this is of course all relative and must use reason), however I believe companies and people aren't given the opportunity to share their side of the story - or their counterargument.

Usually you may see a quote of someone's response in to being questioned about something, or perhaps a company will say "no comment at this time" - neither of these are good IMHO.

I feel pre-publishing, a person should be given the opportunity to respond - and at least part of that response be included in the publication - and always there should be a permanent link clearly highlighted to a third-party platform allowing the person's full response (or really all people and organizations mentioned in an article), which a link/response that can be added to/edited later (with version control to view the previous versions - leaving the purpose of editing to expand upon or clarify).

Who pays for the wheels to get going on this kind of system? Is it safe to be government supported? This is an important system I believe we must implement as soon as possible. Getting it adopted is possible, it just takes effort which includes needing enough resources for a longer runway. It feels like it would be a similar type of service of importance as Wikipedia.

Re:Underestimating the power of Jeff Bezos by mpclark on Monday September 18, 2017 @09:42AM (#15275813)
The first part of what you have outlined is in fact part of 'proper' journalism here in the UK. A journalist is supposed to approach the subject of the story and get their point of view, partly for reasons of fairness and balance as you rightly point out, but mostly as a defence against defamation actions after it is published. You'll notice that the BBC always does this.

However, it can very difficult to get any sort of comment out of any party that has acted less than admirably, and many see staying tight-lipped as a strategy that can make a bad story go away. Of course, it doesn't work like this.

Additionally, some publishers have deep enough pockets that they are prepared to risk a defamation action if the story is strong enough, or they actively don't want to tip off the subject to upcoming coverage because they may put countermeasures in place (either legal or a pre-emptive "My drugs hell"-type confessional in a rival publication)

The difficulty with quoting full responses anywhere is that, just for example, anyone ever asked for comment by one of our more popular UK papers would be well advised to work in something about their past support of the Nazis or indeed the tax arrangements of their proprietor. I'd expect many such responses to be defamatory in themselves, and thus unpublishable.

Re:Underestimating the power of Jeff Bezos by morgancmartin on Monday September 18, 2017 @09:16AM (#15275558)
It sounds as though something like the Ethereum network would be exactly what you're looking for. It's decentralized, meaning no one entity has the ability to remove it. And it is as democratic as you want it to be, meaning the user base can push for the requirement of fairness you suggest.
Re:Underestimating the power of Jeff Bezos by matt4077 on Monday September 18, 2017 @09:05AM (#15275461)
It's called a subscription.

Micropayments don't work for journalism, because there's too much of a difference between the set of articles that people are likely to press the "pay 10cents" button on (or even read) and the set of articles that are necessary for civil society to function.

That's why journalists were almost disgusted by buzzfeed's "big board", the screen showing current traffic numbers for all articles: it encourages the sort of cat content that drives traffic for the least amount of effort.

As one example, there was the widely-shared frustration of one journalist on Twitter who had been investigating that Trump Jr. meeting with the russians for months, only to be scooped by Jr. making it public himself when he got wind of the investigation. It's not just that this journalist's work wouldn't be rewarded under a micropayment model. It also shows that some stories take an amount of work that I think people don't know about. Even if his article had become a hit, could it ever pull in as much money as the dozens of listicles you could pump out in those months of work?

Editors at high-quality publishers still tend to want to do the right thing. Subscriptions give them a bit of cover to send someone on an assignment that they deem important. Once every articles' costs and revenue become explicit data points on a colourful chart, even those owners that are currently willing to look the other way as long as the overall numbers make some sense will find it hard to resist the temptation to point at the outliers and ask if it's really necessary to spend a six-digit sum on that investigation of bribery at the Backwater County (MI) Department of Public Health when it only got 10,000 microflatters of 5 cents each, all from residents of East Nowhere (MI), especially since advertisers stopped being interested in readers from East Nowhere once they all started spending their money on Heroin.

Re:Underestimating the power of Jeff Bezos by criddell on Monday September 18, 2017 @09:38AM (#15275782)
Actually, I think Buzzfeed has it right. Make money where it's easy to do so then use that money to fund bigger stories. The fact that the silly stories often find a bigger audience says something.

Also, I would recommend following journalists rather than news outlets.

Re:Underestimating the power of Jeff Bezos by seppin on Monday September 18, 2017 @10:43AM (#15276367)
you're not wrong, Buzzfeed is profitable while they do some truly amazing journalism as well.

But I really can't see WSJ or NYT creating clickbait personality quizzes just to fund their business.

Re:Underestimating the power of Jeff Bezos by criddell on Monday September 18, 2017 @11:41AM (#15276863)
No, but it demonstrates that new business models are worth exploring.

The NYT site The Wirecutter makes it's money from affiliate codes. Before that happened, I would have doubted that the NYT would ever look for money by linking product reviews back to Amazon.

If the NYT doesn't stabilize and Buzzfeed continues to grow, I could see Buzzfeed buying the Times as a more respected place to publish serious stories.

That probably won't happen because I think the NYT is in decent shape today.

Re:Underestimating the power of Jeff Bezos by athenot on Monday September 18, 2017 @09:32AM (#15275724)
Yes. For that reason I have a subscription to one of the major papers.

What I'd like is a federated system, where say 90% goes to the paper I'm subscribed to, but 10% goes into a pool of other participating papers, allowing me to view a few articles a month at other papers. 2 factors at play: I can't reasonably have multiple subscriptions and I don't have enough time to take advantage of content from more than 1 large paper. But I'd like a way to support good articles from other papers on a more occasional basis.

Disclaimer: I haven't fully thought this through and I'm sure there are pitfalls in this approach… happy to hear about them!

Re:Underestimating the power of Jeff Bezos by rjtavares on Monday September 18, 2017 @09:19AM (#15275601)
> This is one of the reasons I really wish there was a decent, widely supported micropayment system for journalism.

I was looking for that also, and have been happy with Blendle[1]. Pretty good selection, recommendations and "return" policy.

[1] https://launch.blendle.com/

Re:Underestimating the power of Jeff Bezos by bauerd on Monday September 18, 2017 @09:24AM (#15275659)
Re:Underestimating the power of Jeff Bezos by seppin on Monday September 18, 2017 @10:42AM (#15276356)
"Get early access"

Why do sites do this? Flattr has been around for almost a decade.

Re:Underestimating the power of Jeff Bezos by bauerd on Monday September 18, 2017 @10:55AM (#15276450)
I remember having signed up for Flattr ages ago so I tried it out. Turns out they seem to have scrapped their original product and I'm now on the waiting list for its successor ("Flattr beta"). I have no idea wtf they're doing. Edit: Also can't login w/ old credentials or recover my password. Duh
Re:Underestimating the power of Jeff Bezos by inanutshellus on Monday September 18, 2017 @08:54AM (#15275387)
IMO micropayments would only be additive. (Ad-itive? ;D) In the "you fill the space you have" sense. XYZ news org would be giddily accepting micropayments w/ no ads but then there'd've been "the lean times" and instead of laying off 75% of their staff and having the C*'s take massive pay cuts, they'd add ads. And we'd be right where we are... only with micropayments.
Re:Underestimating the power of Jeff Bezos by pp19dd on Monday September 18, 2017 @09:44AM (#15275833)
Scale is a problem. To give you an example, as of a few years ago, you could buy copy of a typical mid-sized city newspaper for $2.

The other $15 it took to produce that day's single copy (that's everything combined, editorial costs, and 30% print costs) came from advertising sources, of which something like 10% is digital, including subscriptions. And that's after years of massive layoffs and reductions in cost.

This is a simplified view, but it should illustrate the scale of operations. The headlining stories that people would pay for are currently loss leaders in a sense, so turning them into sole breadwinners is dooming rest of the stories produced for that day (I'm not paying for a police blotter story, unless it features a stolen tomato). And under that model there's the feedback risk of majority stories becoming tailored to their patrons, becoming images of darling kittens and pet goats.

Sideline to show I'm not just being my usual cynical self: for a brief time, AP tried to syndicate lolcats (yes, the i Can Has Cheezburger blog one) but then someone asked about the issue of image rights. Had this happened, it would have resulted in pretty much all of US newspapers ending up with kitten pictures in print, because readers would love it and it's no work at all to produce it.

These cost breakdown numbers are changing and vary greatly from newspaper to newspaper, but I hope it illustrates a dark and complicated reality of news decline. I don't know what's the solution, but you can't dismiss brick and mortar news agencies and think they can either instantly convert to digital media and revenue, or that independent online-online agencies can come replace it.

The non-syndicated stories you see in today's newspaper (go pick one up wherever you are) have been worked on for days, weeks, even months. And tomorrow's stories will have a similar breakdown of labor. Isn't it mind boggling? AP, AFP, Reuters will not concentrate in towns and fact check the local authorities and governance because they'd get stretched too thin, so newspapers mix and match local coverage with national as best they can. The kicker is that all that hard work spanning days, weeks, months gets used by local TV stations that very morning and (if the story is that unusual), by online-only agencies and aggregators, because they don't have all those boots on the ground.

It's complicated.

Reward for reading any of this rant, Dick Irwin's tomato blotter story: "Someone entered the rear yard of a house in the 5900 block of Johnson St. on Saturday morning and removed a tomato from a tomato plant. The tomato was valued at $3, police said."

Re:Underestimating the power of Jeff Bezos by jasonsync on Monday September 18, 2017 @09:19AM (#15275596)
At the most basic level "don't bite the hand that feeds you" seems like the main takeaway from this story.

A long time ago I did an internship at a marketing firm that did work for Subway Sandwiches. As such, it was considered a fireable offence to bring any other branded "sub" into the office.

Re:Underestimating the power of Jeff Bezos by tyingq on Monday September 18, 2017 @09:32AM (#15275719)
>As such, it was considered a fireable offence to bring any other branded "sub" into the office.

Ugh. That's just so stupid. What if they do work for a bank, automobile manufacturer, clothing designer, etc? Are the employees obliged to then buy new clothes, cars, hide their branded debit cards in the cafeteria?

Re:Underestimating the power of Jeff Bezos by jasonsync on Monday September 18, 2017 @09:38AM (#15275787)
Haha. In realistic terms they simply wanted to avoid that awkward moment. Although, if you work for GM, and exclusively drive a Toyota, would you feel pressured into switching at some point?

Edit - to answer my own question I searched Google and found this: http://jalopnik.com/dear-car-companies-stop-punishing-employ...

Re:Underestimating the power of Jeff Bezos by stevenwoo on Monday September 18, 2017 @10:34AM (#15276290)
I live near the Tesla office near Arastradero Road. The last time I rode my bike by and paid attention, there were very few Teslas visible in the parking lot ( though one cannot see very far in the lot from the street due to the terrain/landscaping).
Re:Underestimating the power of Jeff Bezos by Jonnax on Monday September 18, 2017 @10:03AM (#15275994)
I think that totally depends how high you are in the company and whether you're client facing.

I doubt that the majority of people that work for Mercedes drive their cars.

Re:Underestimating the power of Jeff Bezos by gbacon on Monday September 18, 2017 @10:30AM (#15276254)
You’d be surprised on both counts. Union factory workers face significant pressure — as in slashed tires — from their peers not to drive foreign vehicles. Auto makers give sizable discounts to their employees.
Re:Underestimating the power of Jeff Bezos by kinkrtyavimoodh on Monday September 18, 2017 @12:21PM (#15277198)
Funny how you put outright vandalism that would cause hundreds of dollars of loss in such an understated manner (face significant pressure).
Re:Underestimating the power of Jeff Bezos by hodgesrm on Monday September 18, 2017 @01:16PM (#15277684)
You should perhaps be more optimistic. ;) Mercedes has a program for "Jahreswagen" ("Year cars") where employees get cars at something like cost, drive them for a year, then can hand them back to be resold. There are a lot of these in Germany. It's popular way to get a nice car without paying the full cost of a brand new vehicle. [0]

[0] http://www.expo.be/en/jahreswagen/index_nl.phtml, lots more info if you read German.

Re:Underestimating the power of Jeff Bezos by gnicholas on Monday September 18, 2017 @02:09PM (#15278110)
If memory serves, employees at PayPal are chastised if they don't use PayPal to buy their lunch in the cafeteria.
Re:Underestimating the power of Jeff Bezos by ropeladder on Monday September 18, 2017 @10:24AM (#15276198)
That is certainly a possible takeaway. My takeaway is that we shouldn't have one man's hand feeding everyone who contributes to the political and intellectual life of the country.
Re:Underestimating the power of Jeff Bezos by HillRat on Monday September 18, 2017 @01:39PM (#15277888)
Any society that can't draw a distinction between marketing and journalism probably doesn't have a long shelf life. In the past, news orgs could enforce a firewall between news and advertising, and advertisers generally respected it as a norm (to the point that allowing advertising to influence news/editorial would cause a scandal). For a variety of reasons -- declining profitability of journalism, the existence of powerful platform monopolies, and the nature of attentional economics on the web -- those norms have eroded, and society is the poorer for it. (Ironically, I think WaPo is actually more insulated from this kind of interference, just because any direct interference would land on Bezos' doorstep rather than Amazon as a corporate entity).
Re:Underestimating the power of Jeff Bezos by mooreds on Monday September 18, 2017 @12:21PM (#15277206)
> This is one of the reasons I really wish there was a decent, widely supported micropayment system for journalism.

Well, to be fair, there is a decent, widely supported payment system for journalism. It's called subscribing to your local newspaper (or the Times, or a magazine). And, depending on your income, this may be a micro payment. The NY Times costs something like 33 cents a day, for example.

It does have the virtue of already existing.

Re:Underestimating the power of Jeff Bezos by apsec112 on Monday September 18, 2017 @12:29PM (#15277272)
"It's called subscribing to your local newspaper"

This won't support, or get you access to, the overwhelming majority of articles, though. It's as if each musician required their own, independent monthly subscription.

"The NY Times costs something like 33 cents a day, for example."

Newspapers can, and will, quietly double their prices without telling you and then make it very hard for you to cancel. See my article on the Boston Globe, for example: https://rationalconspiracy.com/2016/04/24/dark-patterns-by-t....

Re:Underestimating the power of Jeff Bezos by mooreds on Monday September 18, 2017 @01:36PM (#15277864)
> This won't support, or get you access to, the overwhelming majority of articles, though. It's as if each musician required their own, independent monthly subscription.

Fair enough. Sounds like "Spotify, but for news" is what you're looking for. I see your point.

> Newspapers can, and will, quietly double their prices without telling you

And that's just plain old bad customer service.

Re:Underestimating the power of Jeff Bezos by dilemma on Tuesday September 19, 2017 @01:13AM (#15281966)
If there was a way to get access to all articles published that would create an even larger demand, and subjective value of, single-publisher subscriptions like the NYT.

People, including you and me, don't want to have access to everything, they want choice access to the "best", chosen by a reputable entity.

Re:Underestimating the power of Jeff Bezos by yeukhon on Monday September 18, 2017 @11:13AM (#15276610)
But here is a counter question: why would I pay a journalist in the first place?

In other words, there must be an objective I am seeking and I somehow find this jouranlist or this group of jouranlist align with my objectives and beliefs. So how does a micropayment system can help promote free and honest journalism?

I wouldn't pay journalist working for Breitbart (Steve Bannon's news outlet) because I don't agree with them.

Re:Underestimating the power of Jeff Bezos by intended on Monday September 18, 2017 @02:27PM (#15278274)
Bingo.

This is the problem.

If journalism is broken down into a market problem, (which will happen regularly on an American board for entrepreneurship) then the product will always be cat pics and scandal.

Because thats what people want. As someone said above, revealed behaviors of news consumers are different from stated behaviors.

If someone actually wanted objective information, they already pay for it - they go buy the wsj/bb for finance. If they want political analysis - they pay for those magazines.

I don't think Journalism works in a free market model.

The problem really boils down to 5-7 slots of short term attention span a human being has.

For all the desire to want good news, people will still dump that attention on junk food for the brain.

Since Good journalism is expensive, takes time to process, and may not be well received - its extremely time and attention intensive.

In a world where we're blowing that resource regularly, good journalism dies. It has to be capable of going toe to toe with attention seeking feel good material.

In a Market system - journalism end up being about hacking human attention. Otherwise not enough people reads it to support the paper.

This is generally a solved problem -

You pay the govt to make a single news agency - give it operating money, independence and stick an oversight group on top of it.

And you call it the BBC, and spend the rest of your days trying to defund it, while a majority of groups call it biased in one direction or the other.

Re:Underestimating the power of Jeff Bezos by yebh on Monday September 18, 2017 @12:13PM (#15277133)
No idea. Journalists to me perform the same function as search engine robots/crawlers. And probably have the same value as those robots do in the info economy.

Google hasn't created a robot to do indepth scans of lets say all the Wikipedia tennis tournament pages even if they can afford to do so technically and financially. Why? Cause its results returned are good enough for the waste majority of ppl. If I ask who last years 4 US open semifinalists were Google isn't able to produce just the 4 names. I can rant about how dumb that is. And why more in depth scanning/parsing is required.

But if Google can't find any great reason to upgrade its crawlers why should a news org do so. Maybe we are past the point where there is any great value.

Re:Underestimating the power of Jeff Bezos by criddell on Monday September 18, 2017 @09:12AM (#15275521)
> I really wish there was a decent, widely supported micropayment system for journalism.

The audience for news isn't as big as I think lots of people wish it were. For the micropayment system to work, I bet the payments wouldn't be very micro.

Re:Underestimating the power of Jeff Bezos by theseatoms on Monday September 18, 2017 @09:22AM (#15275636)
Then a lot of news can go away, which is fine. As ad-blocking becomes more popular, this'll happen anyway.
Re:Underestimating the power of Jeff Bezos by gozur88 on Monday September 18, 2017 @01:16PM (#15277683)
I'm not a big fan of microtransactions unless everybody pretty much used the same service. Otherwise there's too much mental overhead.

Also, I'd pay for a service that got me free access to a dozen original news providers (I don't want a dozen copies of the wire story) with different points of view, I'd pay for that.

But that's not the landscape right now.

One thing that might work is really lean organizations surviving on donations for original reporting. I know Michael Yon made that work in Iraq, and there were a bunch of people trying to do that (somewhat successfully, I believe) on youtube before the ad money dried up.

Re:Underestimating the power of Jeff Bezos by dalbasal on Monday September 18, 2017 @10:46AM (#15276389)
IDK if there’s a perfect (or even good) solution out there. There are and were many ways of funding publications, each with their own problems. Nothing consistently yields good work.

A pattern-like donations system has biases of its own. Where big national dailies tend to have centrist-conservative leanings, donor supported journalism would tend to favour political wings and fringes as they play to their supporter silo. In both cases, there’s a big incentive to do opinion, talking heads, and less incentive to do first hand investigations.

Re:Underestimating the power of Jeff Bezos by eternalban on Monday September 18, 2017 @11:33AM (#15276798)
I seem to in a minority here scanning the comments, which are focused on "advertising".

The OP is discussing "the power of Jeff Bezos". To illustrate, he has anecdotal evidence of an attorney bowing out due to concern for his daughter's upcoming book.

He is talking about a network effect with scope far beyond the matter of a specific publication and its relationship with a key advertiser.

Re:Underestimating the power of Jeff Bezos by jordigh on Monday September 18, 2017 @12:43PM (#15277378)
This is always why the pleading to make me sit through my alloted dose of ads for the good of capitalism always sounds so weird to me. You're trying to make me feel guilty about not wanting to allow my mind to be distracted and polluted by a third party that's trying to get me to buy something neither you nor I actually care about?
Re:Underestimating the power of Jeff Bezos by jstewartmobile on Monday September 18, 2017 @10:59AM (#15276493)
Bloomberg has already established the market price of accurate independent journalism:

https://qz.com/84961/this-is-how-much-a-bloomberg-terminal-c... ($24K per year per head)

Not holding my breath on micropayments...

Re:Underestimating the power of Jeff Bezos by wutbrodo on Tuesday September 19, 2017 @01:07PM (#15286493)
This is quite obviously not generalizable. Bloomberg provides financial data, which is at a much more valuable point of the funnel in direct monetary terms to the purchaser.

The sad fact is that real journalism doesn't provide that much value directly to the purchaser: much of the value of an informed citizen accrues as a positive externality to the rest of society. The latter by definition doesn't affect willingness-to-pay, however, so newspapers in general have had to rely on their customers' willingness to pay coming from a vague need to sound informed in front of their friends. This is obviously a lot less sensitive to the _quality_ of journalism, so you end up with a situation where there's no real channel for providing quality journalism to the average person.

Re:Underestimating the power of Jeff Bezos by jstewartmobile on Tuesday September 19, 2017 @02:38PM (#15287539)
Even back in the day when they were still getting paid, the overall quality of mainstream media content was almost as bad as it is today.

Even back then, they were still businesses. Their customers were still the advertisers, not the subscribers. If there was dirt to dig up on a politician, they'd probably cover it. If there was dirt to air on the local car dealership, grocery store, or real estate brokerage--silence!

To be an actual public service, the agency relationship has to be right. It was never right for the mainstream media. Bloomberg terminals do have it right (I'm the customer, not the product), but expensive!

Re:Underestimating the power of Jeff Bezos by willvarfar on Monday September 18, 2017 @08:46AM (#15275344)
Private Eye have an interesting model - they are deliberately not online. They do not try and bait and subscribe you.

A lot of what they write is too focused on whitehall and fleet street to be terribly interesting to a wider public. I've often wished they'd expand to do serious journalism too.

Re:Underestimating the power of Jeff Bezos by mst on Monday September 18, 2017 @12:49PM (#15277438)
Part of me keeps wishing there was a paid kindle edition of it or similar ... but then I remember that I mostly read the eye as a result of impulse purchases from railway news stands, and suspect that that's why there isn't.

Always funny when you see part of an eye page clipped from a photo to post on twitter - the one time that having an image instead of text seems actually suitable ;)

Re:Underestimating the power of Jeff Bezos by blubb-fish on Monday September 18, 2017 @09:35AM (#15275759)
would it really make a difference? my guess is that expenses would be as always adjusted to the budget. and if the budget is u-payments + ads then the advertisers will still have power.

what actually matters is the ideology of the journalists involved. do they have a mission or are they primarily interested in wealth and fame.

Re:Underestimating the power of Jeff Bezos by sidlls on Monday September 18, 2017 @10:04AM (#15276004)
Shouldn't they be compensated for their work, no matter how passionate they are for it?
Re:Underestimating the power of Jeff Bezos by ElijahLynn on Monday September 18, 2017 @12:53PM (#15277479)
Also, WikiTribune is in the works and has potential. It won't be funded by advertisers at all.
Re:Underestimating the power of Jeff Bezos by devopsproject on Tuesday September 19, 2017 @10:48AM (#15285111)