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Re:Chelsea Manning: The Dystopia We Signed Up For by meri_dian on Wednesday September 13, 2017 @04:46PM (#15242468)
What she describes doesn't sound like a dystopia at all. Some systems that she interacted with weren't able to handle her name change. Ok... having some trouble handling edge cases is not dystopian, that's just poorly designed software.

It's not like she was permanantly shut out of society. She was temporarily inconvenienced.

Re:Chelsea Manning: The Dystopia We Signed Up For by chc on Wednesday September 13, 2017 @04:59PM (#15242613)
A world where poorly designed software denies you access to your property because you are an "edge case," and humans who could help just shrug and defer to the computer? I don't know, it sounds to me like a dystopia that somebody might have written about a few decades ago.

Also, I don't think that's the full extent of her point here. She's just offering an example of how our pervasive reliance on computers (which often have poorly designed software) has caused trouble for her personally.

Re:Chelsea Manning: The Dystopia We Signed Up For by meri_dian on Wednesday September 13, 2017 @05:24PM (#15242843)
In reality if you are one of those edge cases, you'll still get what you need, you'll just be inconvenienced by having to wade through bureaucratic morass. Temporary inconvenience is not dystopian.
Re:Chelsea Manning: The Dystopia We Signed Up For by jlgaddis on Wednesday September 13, 2017 @06:04PM (#15243164)
Not being able to find a place to live (rent, in this case) is merely an inconvenience? Or, if you do manage to find a place to live but can't get access to your money to pay for it? If you can't obtain housing or (your own) money, I'd imagine that most other aspects of your life aren't going to be very pleasant either.

Personally, I would consider having to forego food and/or shelter for an unknown length of time -- while a bureaucratic morass is being sorted out, because "the computer said no" -- to be much, much more than just a "temporary inconvenience".

Re:Chelsea Manning: The Dystopia We Signed Up For by forthefuture on Wednesday September 13, 2017 @07:34PM (#15243735)
You are misunderstanding. The computer only helps everyone it works for. It doesn't hurt the people it doesn't work for.

The worst case is that you get handled by people because the computer didn't work, which is the same as if there were no computers.

We might not be optimized for human intervention into these processes, but that's because at the scale we operate at (hundreds of millions of users) it is physically impossible to provide human to human service for everyone.

Re:Chelsea Manning: The Dystopia We Signed Up For by jancsika on Wednesday September 13, 2017 @08:17PM (#15243943)
> The worst case is that you get handled by people because the computer didn't work, which is the same as if there were no computers.

You are for some reason assuming the article described a failed computer-aided transaction gracefully degrading to a successful human-aided transaction. But that is clearly not what it describes:

> Even then, human clerks and bank tellers would sometimes see the discrepancy, shrug and say “the computer says no” while denying me access to my accounts.

In other words, this was an unsuccessful computer-aided transaction that a service representative did not have permission to override.

If there had been no computers, the service representative would have successfully completed the transaction since there would have been no discrepancy.

So in this example, computer discrepancy + powerless human representative is worse than a representative in a world with no computers.

Edit: wording

Re:Chelsea Manning: The Dystopia We Signed Up For by forthefuture on Wednesday September 13, 2017 @09:07PM (#15244190)
> If there had been no computers, the service representative would have successfully completed the transaction since there would have been no discrepancy.

If you replace a computer with a piece of paper with a different name on the account, it doesn't make it any easier for a service representative to override.

This isn't a computer problem. It has always been inconvenient to change your name.

Re:Chelsea Manning: The Dystopia We Signed Up For by jancsika on Thursday September 14, 2017 @09:24PM (#15253863)
> If you replace a computer with a piece of paper with a different name on the account, it doesn't make it any easier for a service representative to override.

It certainly does: * Before computers, most of the roles of the computer were not fulfilled by pieces of paper. It was the teller-of-the-past who was the human front-end and identity verifier/calculator/UI/running policykit instance/etc.

* teller-of-the-past was necessarily trusted to use their discretion to a greater degree than teller-of-the-present

* teller-of-the-past could cache the results of an identity verification on Tuesday to use as the identity verification on Wednesday

* supervisor could bless teller-of-the-past to teach teller-of-the-past2 how to do an end-run around policy foo for edge case bar, where edge case bar involves a specific human or category of humans. (As an aside, the supervisor could do this more quickly than a team of third-party software developers can code, test, and deploy an interface for the same human or small category of humans)

* piece of paper could not lock teller-of-the-past out of completing a transaction with the customer

* even if teller-of-the-past decided not to fulfill the transaction, the equivalent of the computer's identity verification algorithm was probably someone else standing in the same physical bank location who could be asked to help complete the task

> This isn't a computer problem. It has always been inconvenient to change your name.

I think what the author is trying to describe is a problem of lack of human discretion, which is something that wouldn't exist at the scale that it currently does without over-reliance on computers. Gmail and plenty of other services don't degrade to humans at all, so I don't think this is subtle stuff.

Re:Chelsea Manning: The Dystopia We Signed Up For by jlgaddis on Thursday September 14, 2017 @05:01PM (#15252478)
You're right, it has been. It doesn't always have to be, though; computers (technology) are supposed to make our lives better, not worse.

A "service representative" (i.e., a real human directly in front of you) could have taken a look at that legal paperwork -- signed by a judge, mind you, and likely imprinted with an official stamp from the clerk -- that Manning was carrying and came to the correct conclusion rather quickly.

At the worse, the rep. might have had to get up, walk 20 feet, and have his/her supervisor also review and approve it. At that point, it would have just taken a few moments to update the information in the computer and the problem would have been resolved permanently.

Re:Chelsea Manning: The Dystopia We Signed Up For by jancsika on Friday September 15, 2017 @10:36AM (#15257479)
> You're right, it has been. It doesn't always have to be, though; computers (technology) are supposed to make our lives better, not worse.

At least in the cases the author describes, I'm not sure why this would be true. Especially once you consider that, over time, less skilled tellers get hired to fill the position of essentially trusting the computer to do most of the heavy lifting.

Why, for example, would a manager keep granting the same power to the teller to use their own discretion, especially in cases where their discretion contradicts the recommendations of the computer system? The potential to gracefully handle edge cases comes at the much greater risk of the unskilled teller screwing up and costing the bank money.

Re:Chelsea Manning: The Dystopia We Signed Up For by Jtsummers on Wednesday September 13, 2017 @11:02PM (#15244699)
> You are misunderstanding. The computer only helps everyone it works for. It doesn't hurt the people it doesn't work for.

Tell that to my friend who is presently without health insurance for his whole family because there isn't a human to help him sign up. His employers put too much faith in the computers and that faith is only going to increase until a critical threshold of people (and the right kind of people, that is not peons like me and him) are inconvenienced.

He's also sans a paycheck and delayed on configuring his retirement contributions, costing him thousands in the long run.

Re:Chelsea Manning: The Dystopia We Signed Up For by vec on Wednesday September 13, 2017 @05:57PM (#15243108)
A system where everyone has to wade through a bureaucratic mess occasionally is certainly not dystopian.

A system where only a handful of people have to wade through a bureaucratic mess with alarming regularity can get very dystopian very fast for those few.

Re:Chelsea Manning: The Dystopia We Signed Up For by zrth on Wednesday September 13, 2017 @07:30PM (#15243711)
Serious question, which is better though?
Re:Chelsea Manning: The Dystopia We Signed Up For by vec on Wednesday September 13, 2017 @08:55PM (#15244123)
Where possible, distributed is almost always better. Comfort and convenience, like all forms of currency, have diminishing marginal utility. Therefore, distributing the costs minimizes the net human suffering.
Re:Chelsea Manning: The Dystopia We Signed Up For by ams6110 on Wednesday September 13, 2017 @11:00PM (#15244696)
There are always edge cases. That's why they are called edge cases.
Re:Chelsea Manning: The Dystopia We Signed Up For by booleandilemma on Wednesday September 13, 2017 @07:22PM (#15243665)
What's the alternative?

If some random person walks into my bank and says they're me, but they've changed their name (and had surgery to change their appearance) I would want that person to be inconvenienced and go through hoops to prove it. I wouldn't want it to be easy for them to assume my identity.

Re:Chelsea Manning: The Dystopia We Signed Up For by 1_2__4 on Wednesday September 13, 2017 @07:36PM (#15243753)
The dystopian aspect is ceding to computers rather than humans the fundamental decision making in our lives. Just because it hasn't gone full Brazil doesn't mean we're not hurtling towards it.
Re:Chelsea Manning: The Dystopia We Signed Up For by xkddf on Thursday September 14, 2017 @05:58AM (#15246384)
Re:Chelsea Manning: The Dystopia We Signed Up For by f1notformula1 on Wednesday September 13, 2017 @06:38PM (#15243390)
Perhaps there are degrees of dystopian-ness (not a real word?), and some people might consider our current degree more acceptable than others.

IMO the only thing that matters at the end is whether people _care_ that something like this is wrong and want to fix it, or if they treat it as as "outliers gonna outlie" so they choose not to care.

Without that level of concern, people who don't easily fit in to the mainstream find their lives increasingly considered less and less important.

Re:Chelsea Manning: The Dystopia We Signed Up For by pfisch on Wednesday September 13, 2017 @05:21PM (#15242813)
Is that really so different from them just sending you into an infinite bureaucracy loop where they refer you to each other in a wide circle until you give up.
Re:Chelsea Manning: The Dystopia We Signed Up For by graphememes on Wednesday September 13, 2017 @05:22PM (#15242824)
No, but it is still dystopian.
Re:Chelsea Manning: The Dystopia We Signed Up For by wyck on Wednesday September 13, 2017 @06:09PM (#15243197)
In a perfect world there are no exceptions, but we don't live in one and exceptions cost time and money, lots of it when dealing with volume.
Re:Chelsea Manning: The Dystopia We Signed Up For by cirgue on Wednesday September 13, 2017 @07:13PM (#15243616)
This is also the world institutional humanity has lived in for several centuries.
Re:Chelsea Manning: The Dystopia We Signed Up For by tootie on Wednesday September 13, 2017 @07:29PM (#15243706)
If you're in a society that does a generally good job of protecting property rights at all then it's not dystopia.
Re:Chelsea Manning: The Dystopia We Signed Up For by jimktrains2 on Wednesday September 13, 2017 @04:55PM (#15242569)
Name changes aren't an edge case. What's dystopian to me is the unwillingness of people to actually work out and solve issues for their clients, customers, and citizens. "Computer Says No" is used to avoid having to work and avoid having to escalate.
Re:Chelsea Manning: The Dystopia We Signed Up For by 2muchcoffeeman on Wednesday September 13, 2017 @06:36PM (#15243373)
It's not just a name change. She was in prison for several years.

When she got out, she tries to fix up her accounts.

If someone walks up to a bank years after no activity and wants a name change (and maybe a gender change) on an account should the bank just do it? Probably not without 3rd party verification that the customer has to initiate by filling out some forms and providing evidence.

I'm just speculating but it could have been reasonable for the bank to have declined the request up front.

Re:Chelsea Manning: The Dystopia We Signed Up For by jimktrains2 on Thursday September 14, 2017 @08:53AM (#15247418)
Sure, but the response shouldn't be "sorry", it should be "here's our process. Thank you for the letter from a judge changing your name, we'll confirm that with the courthouse and should be good to go."
Re:Chelsea Manning: The Dystopia We Signed Up For by 2muchcoffeeman on Thursday September 14, 2017 @07:33PM (#15253376)
I am not trying to excuse rudeness. Only trying to point out that this was an extraordinary case.

I bet if it was a woman that got married and changed her last name, it would be super simple.

Re:Chelsea Manning: The Dystopia We Signed Up For by CaptSpify on Wednesday September 13, 2017 @06:01PM (#15243135)
Having worked at a helpdesk: "computer says no" is effectively the same as "my company/boss says no". Most of those systems are intentionally set up so that you can't override them for an edge case. It's not a smart way to do things, but it's the way things are done.
Re:Chelsea Manning: The Dystopia We Signed Up For by fusiongyro on Wednesday September 13, 2017 @05:35PM (#15242943)
How's that different from bad customer service in an earlier era? "I don't know what form you need and my manager is at lunch."
Re:Chelsea Manning: The Dystopia We Signed Up For by hinkley on Wednesday September 13, 2017 @07:02PM (#15243551)

    having some trouble handling edge cases is not dystopian
Uh.. Okay. What do you think a dystopia is?

In most literature it's a society that has a myopic view of people (ie, not dealing with edge cases) resulting in an oppressive society. One where fairness and free agency have been greatly curtailed by a stubborn insistence on a very simplistic view of the world.

Re:Chelsea Manning: The Dystopia We Signed Up For by femto on Wednesday September 13, 2017 @07:42PM (#15243783)
Two observations:

1) The "edge cases" typically change slowly over time. If you are an edge case, it's not your turn this year and someone else's turn next year. Your circumstances define you, and are potentially reinforced by your "edge case" status. It's your turn every year, and your entire life becomes a living hell.

2) It takes only a small proportion of edge cases to get a lot of disenfranchised people. For example, 1% of people being edge cases would draw in over 3 million people in the US alone.

Re:Chelsea Manning: The Dystopia We Signed Up For by XR0CSWV3h3kZWg on Wednesday September 13, 2017 @05:33PM (#15242923)
I guess whether it's dystopian or not depends on if you are one of the edge cases or not.
Re:Chelsea Manning: The Dystopia We Signed Up For by mmjaa on Wednesday September 13, 2017 @04:56PM (#15242583)
What parts of any dystopia are well designed?
Re:Chelsea Manning: The Dystopia We Signed Up For by trhway on Wednesday September 13, 2017 @05:42PM (#15243001)
that is actually the key question here. I'd argue that it is pretty much a definition of dystopia when things are extremely/ultimately/perfectly well designed for the other side of the counter, ie. the side of the counter opposite to the customer/user/citizen's side. Presumption of innocence, citizens' freedoms and rights, etc. are basically inconveniences for that other side, and those inconveniences are designed away in dystopia. It is naturally feels like a bad design for the customers/users/citizens.
Re:Chelsea Manning: The Dystopia We Signed Up For by abrown28 on Wednesday September 13, 2017 @05:49PM (#15243045)
the murder parts
Re:Chelsea Manning: The Dystopia We Signed Up For by kerno on Wednesday September 13, 2017 @06:26PM (#15243316)
I dunno fella bombing the shit out of people on the basis of their data trails seems pretty dystopian to me
Re:Chelsea Manning: The Dystopia We Signed Up For by antoinevg on Thursday September 14, 2017 @12:52AM (#15245094)
I beg of you to not assume, because you are not suffering, that the suffering of others is not real.
Re:Chelsea Manning: The Dystopia We Signed Up For by wyatte on Wednesday September 13, 2017 @08:49PM (#15244085)
I agree. I'm fairly sure I was put through the same if not more of a challenge than hers when I moved from one province to another.
Re:Chelsea Manning: The Dystopia We Signed Up For by rhizome on Wednesday September 13, 2017 @06:14PM (#15243234)
Dystopias do not depend on banishment, I don't even know where you get that. Logan's Run?
Re:Chelsea Manning: The Dystopia We Signed Up For by jorgeleo on Wednesday September 13, 2017 @06:11PM (#15243207)
I don't think that you will call it a "temporary inconvenience" if it were you been in jail for some time.