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Re:Massive genetic study shows how humans are evolving by ronnier on Sunday September 10, 2017 @01:47PM (#15213317)
* Analysis of 215,000 people's DNA suggests variants that shorten life are being selected against.

* tested more than 8 million common mutations, and found two that seemed to become less prevalent with age. A variant of the APOE gene, which is strongly linked to Alzheimer’s disease, was rarely found in women over 70. And a mutation in the CHRNA3 gene associated with heavy smoking in men petered out in the population starting in middle age. People without these mutations have a survival edge and are more likely to live longer, the researchers suggest.

* certain groups of genetic mutations, which individually would not have a measurable effect but together accounted for health threats, appeared less often in people who were expected to have long lifespans than in those who weren't. These included predispositions to asthma, high body mass index and high cholesterol.

* Most surprising, however, was the finding that sets of mutations that delay puberty and childbearing are more prevalent in long-lived people.

Re:Massive genetic study shows how humans are evolving by mannykannot on Sunday September 10, 2017 @02:41PM (#15213572)
This puzzled me, as these Alzeheimer's and smoking results do not seem to be evidence of evolution; one would surely need to see a decrease over generations? The article goes on to say 'That such a large study found only two [late-acting genes] strongly suggests that evolution is “weeding” them out, says Mostafavi, and that others have probably already been purged from the population by natural selection.' The article and paper then repeat some hypotheses as to why natural selection would eliminate these hypothesized former late-acting genes from the gene pool, given that they seem to act after most people's reproductive years.

So the article and paper seem to be arguing that a low frequency of late-acting genes indicates ongoing evolution, but acknowledge that this raises questions about why natural selection would act on them.

The relevance of the decrease of the prevalence of these genes with age is apparently that survivorship bias is being used to distinguish causation from mere correlation.

Re:Massive genetic study shows how humans are evolving by skookumchuck on Sunday September 10, 2017 @03:24PM (#15213829)
An Attenborough TV show suggested that the reason people live long compared to animals is that grandparents are needed to help raise the young. The grandparents raise the young while the parents work/hunt/farm/whatever.

So having healthy grandparents gives a survival advantage.

Re:Massive genetic study shows how humans are evolving by fauigerzigerk on Sunday September 10, 2017 @03:58PM (#15214022)
This theory is mentioned in the article as well, but it doesn't seem very plausible if we're talking about living into the 80s or 90s.

At that age, the effect should be reversed as people often need care themselves rather than caring for grandchildren (who may be adults by that time anyway)

I suppose the "grandmother theory" originally only explained why women live beyond menopause, not into their 70s, 80s or 90s.

Re:Massive genetic study shows how humans are evolving by azernik on Sunday September 10, 2017 @04:26PM (#15214164)
Alzheimer's in particular does not reduce lifespan all that much; rather, it increases the resources that children and grandchildren need to use to care for the parent. So selection against Alzheimer's would presumably (we have very little evidence for any of this) be even stronger than selection against traits that, say, killed at 70.
Re:Massive genetic study shows how humans are evolving by saimiam on Sunday September 10, 2017 @06:16PM (#15214588)
Is actually caring for an Alzheimer's stricken relative a new phenomenon? Could it be that a hundred years ago, a chronically ill, continually deteriorating relative was just left in a room to waste away?
Re:Massive genetic study shows how humans are evolving by azernik on Sunday September 10, 2017 @06:51PM (#15214722)
Professional Alzheimer's care is new;, without good professional work you're going to get sores and muscle atrophy and all kinds of other complications that can be fatal at old age. We've gotten very good at dealing with those, but not at actually curing the underlying disease. (Speaking from family experience.)

Maybe even more importantly, though, 100 years ago other, unrelated diseases of old age were likely to get you well before Alzheimer's really got bad.

Re:Massive genetic study shows how humans are evolving by skookumchuck on Monday September 11, 2017 @05:31PM (#15222547)
Even today, people rarely die from Alzheimer's, because something else gets them first, as Alzheimer's is a very slowly progressing disease.
Re:Massive genetic study shows how humans are evolving by mannykannot on Sunday September 10, 2017 @04:18PM (#15214124)
Increasing longevity to the point of incapacity may be a consequence of improved health care, rather than biological adaptation.
Re:Massive genetic study shows how humans are evolving by cpeterso on Sunday September 10, 2017 @05:53PM (#15214492)
And while average life expectancy has been increasing for a long time (thanks to improved health care), the maximum life span has not. The oldest living people are still "only" about 115-122 years old.
Re:Massive genetic study shows how humans are evolving by dmix on Sunday September 10, 2017 @07:42PM (#15214906)
Is this because "improved health care" only makes typical illnesses treatable/prentable whereas maximum lifespan (ie, the deteriation of cells/organs/etc with age) are not being focused on? Or is it because they are very challenging things to extend?
Re:Massive genetic study shows how humans are evolving by skookumchuck on Sunday September 10, 2017 @04:46PM (#15214246)
Primitive societies are known to abandon old people to die when they become a burden rather than an asset.
Re:Massive genetic study shows how humans are evolving by interfixus on Sunday September 10, 2017 @09:34PM (#15215272)
An ugly, indisputable fact. Saddening to see you downvoted.
Re:Massive genetic study shows how humans are evolving by ch4s3 on Sunday September 10, 2017 @05:51PM (#15214480)
some
Re:Massive genetic study shows how humans are evolving by skookumchuck on Sunday September 10, 2017 @06:24PM (#15214615)
What's a nomadic tribe to do with someone who can no longer keep up? When there is insufficient food (commonplace in older societies) who is going to get the food?

When resources get scarce, there are a lot of ugly realities.

Re:Massive genetic study shows how humans are evolving by dredmorbius on Sunday September 10, 2017 @07:07PM (#15214799)
You might do better to provide citations over argument.
Re:Massive genetic study shows how humans are evolving by skookumchuck on Sunday September 10, 2017 @09:02PM (#15215143)
"Traditional nomadic tribes often end up abandoning their elderly during their unrelenting travels. The choice for the healthy and young is to do this or carry the old and infirm on their backs — along with children, weapons and necessities — through perilous territory. Also prone to sacrificing their elderly are societies that suffer periodic famines. Citing a dramatic example, Diamond said Paraguay’s Aché Indians assign certain young men the task of killing old people with an ax or spear, or burying them alive."

http://newsroom.ucla.edu/stories/jared-diamond-on-aging-1505...

Re:Massive genetic study shows how humans are evolving by dredmorbius on Sunday September 10, 2017 @09:30PM (#15215248)
Thanks, exactly.
Re:Massive genetic study shows how humans are evolving by bagacrap on Monday September 11, 2017 @11:01AM (#15218992)
But many animals reach sexual maturity much faster (e.g. cattle at ~40 months) so you would expect many more generations to be alive simultaneously.
Re:Massive genetic study shows how humans are evolving by perlgeek on Sunday September 10, 2017 @02:50PM (#15213638)
I had the same reaction as you at first, but read carefully:

"Mostafavi and his colleagues tested more than 8 million common mutations, and found two that seemed to become less prevalent with age"

Old people are less likely to have this gene than young people. This can have two possible explanations: old people with this gene are more likely to are already dead (and thus not show up in the study), or the gene is becoming more prevalent in the younger generations. The statement "People without these mutations have a survival edge and are more likely to live longer" favors the first explanation.

This is not the effect of natural selection on gene prevalence. (And it would be weird for Alzheimer's, which usually occurs at an age where reproduction is often finished, and maybe even raising the kids is done already).

Re:Massive genetic study shows how humans are evolving by mannykannot on Sunday September 10, 2017 @03:04PM (#15213721)
My apologies for editing my reply to add a third paragraph while you were replying to it, but I think that explains the relevance of the age dependence to this study: the decrease in the prevalence with age suggests that they actually do exacerbate the diseases they are associated with, and so the association is not merely a correlation.

Note that they are not suggesting these genes have been the subject of selection; it is the hypothesized number of such late-acting genes that were not found that are assumed to have been selected against.

Re:Massive genetic study shows how humans are evolving by freeflight on Sunday September 10, 2017 @03:49PM (#15213969)
> This puzzled me, as these Alzeheimer's and smoking results do not seem to be evidence of evolution; one would surely need to see a decrease over generations?

At least with smoking, we've been experiencing exactly that decrease for generations. Smoking has become vastly unpopular compared to how prevalent and socially accepted it used to be. Social factors had been one of the main driving forces, but that doesn't mean it has to be the only driving force.

Re:Massive genetic study shows how humans are evolving by mannykannot on Sunday September 10, 2017 @04:15PM (#15214113)
The social issues complicate the problem of identifying genetic effects.
Re:Massive genetic study shows how humans are evolving by memeCrasher on Sunday September 10, 2017 @02:54PM (#15213669)
Could be that the genes have a deleterious effect in youth, not just old age.
Re:Massive genetic study shows how humans are evolving by AlexCoventry on Sunday September 10, 2017 @05:19PM (#15214364)
Or it could be that aging is a complex process which a naive experiment like this is unlikely to shed much light on.
Re:Massive genetic study shows how humans are evolving by mannykannot on Sunday September 10, 2017 @03:00PM (#15213702)
That is one of the hypotheses advanced in the article.
Re:Massive genetic study shows how humans are evolving by EGreg on Sunday September 10, 2017 @03:00PM (#15213701)
That last one may have a great deal to do with it.

As people live longer and safer lives, they can afford to have children later. And child mortality has been seriously reduced, so the children they have are comparable to thise among people from previous centuries who had many children younger.

Having children takes a toll on an organism, and having many children takes a larger toll, presumably. I wouldn't be surprised if there is a correlation between lifespan and number of children, among women.

So - people live longer and have children later. The children grow up richer and bigger and in turn have children later, as well.

I bet there is a correlation between age of having children and lifespan.

Re:Massive genetic study shows how humans are evolving by glenstein on Sunday September 10, 2017 @03:32PM (#15213875)
I definitely think postponing reproduction would coincide with longevity, but for a completely different/same-but-differently-stated reason. Evolution doesn't seem to care very much about the survival of an organism once they've successfully reproduced an optimal number of offspring, except to the extent that the organism can see to the well-being of offspring.

It stands to reason that postponing reproduction for as long as reasonably possible would contribute to selection for longevity. From evolution's perspective, you have to survive at least that long, or else you're not good for anything. If humanity collectively decides to postpone having children, evolution may begrudgingly allocate more of its resources toward the welfare of individuals, rather than viewing our early deaths as an acceptable loss in a cold utilitarian calculation about long-term gene proliferation.

(edits)

Re:Massive genetic study shows how humans are evolving by ForRealsies on Monday September 11, 2017 @11:03AM (#15219012)
What about the increase in defects/problems with women having children in their mid-late 30s? And older father's sperm containing more mutations https://www.nature.com/news/fathers-bequeath-more-mutations-...
Re:Massive genetic study shows how humans are evolving by glenstein on Monday September 11, 2017 @03:23PM (#15221442)
You are right that if this were attempted on day one by banning pregnancies by everyone except thirty-somethings, it would be a non-starter, because of the many unsolved health issues with pregnancies at that age. It wouldn't work if we put all the eggs in that basket. The strategy would be to gradually expand the range of sustainable, healthy ages to have pregnancies, so that the outer extremes eventually become part of the "heartland" range of sustainable pregnancies.

You could imagine a graph showing the percentage of pregnancies that occur at each age. The strategy would be to gradually move the percentages over time so that some percentage of sixteen year old pregnancies get shifted over into seventeen year old pregnancies, some seventeen year old pregnancies become eighteen year old pregnancies, and so on.

The goal is that, over time, there is escalating pressure to solve health problems that occur at later ages, problems that evolution currently has little incentive to address.

Re:Massive genetic study shows how humans are evolving by EGreg on Sunday September 10, 2017 @04:40PM (#15214215)
Very interesting! I find this kind of line very exciting.

But dows that mean some sort of Lamarckian evolution is taking place after all?

Sexy son hypothesis is also similar. Is it related?

Re:Massive genetic study shows how humans are evolving by astura on Monday September 11, 2017 @11:27AM (#15219219)
>I bet there is a correlation between age of having children and lifespan.

There is (at least for women).

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4270889/

> A significant association for later maternal age was found whereby women who had their last child beyond the age of 33 years had twice the odds of survival to the top 5th percentile of survival of their birth cohorts compared to women who had their last child by age 29 (OR=2.08, 95%CI 1.13; 3.92 for age between 33 and 37 years and OR=1.92, 95% CI 1.03; 3.68 for older age).

It's important to know though that delaying childbirth among women is associated with all sorts of other "healthy" factors like high education, high income, stable marriage, etc.

Re:Massive genetic study shows how humans are evolving by thrownblown on Sunday September 10, 2017 @04:37PM (#15214208)
mothers, even mothers who don't carry all the way to birth, get fetal cells, very similar to stem cells, that protect and repair their mothers, but can also trigger autoimmune conditions like lupus, or rheumatoid arthritis.

http://www.radiolab.org/story/205334-fetal-consequences/

Re:Massive genetic study shows how humans are evolving by EGreg on Sunday September 10, 2017 @04:45PM (#15214244)
Apparently I was wrong - according to this

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/16510865/

But this study is contradicted by many studies

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/having-sons-can-s...

Re:Massive genetic study shows how humans are evolving by thrownblown on Sunday September 10, 2017 @04:50PM (#15214261)
the radiolab is from 2012, and i'm sure they've learned a lot since then, but they do mention that there are a lot of factors (sex of children, number of children, number of fathers) that correlate with both good and bad effects of the fetal cells.
Re:Massive genetic study shows how humans are evolving by EGreg on Sunday September 10, 2017 @06:36PM (#15214666)
So which is it?

Do children at 20-30 increase or decrease life span?

Obviously people who live longer may have more children, especially the men. I am talking about the other way.

Re:Massive genetic study shows how humans are evolving by thrownblown on Monday September 11, 2017 @03:33AM (#15216699)
The simple answer is its complicated. Having a child is stressful on the organism, but there are ultimately 2 types of stress eustress and distress.

Sometimes it's good sometimes it's bad. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Re:Massive genetic study shows how humans are evolving by tomerbd on Sunday September 10, 2017 @03:01PM (#15213711)
there is i tell you ;) at least 20 years less off your life.
Re:Massive genetic study shows how humans are evolving by trophycase on Sunday September 10, 2017 @04:29PM (#15214179)
The last point isn't surprising at all. I think there is a subset of the population that matures quickly, reproduces quickly, and dies quickly.

From my own observations in middle school and high school, those that mature earlier are far more likely to get into drugs, forgo education, etc... all things that are measures of success in our current society

Re:Massive genetic study shows how humans are evolving by xtreme on Sunday September 10, 2017 @04:55PM (#15214287)
Success in our society is not a good measure of evolutionary success. Evolution is only concerned about the number of viable offsprings you produce, not how well off they are.
Re:Massive genetic study shows how humans are evolving by wernercd on Sunday September 10, 2017 @05:11PM (#15214337)
For reference, see Idiocracy opening sequence... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YwZ0ZUy7P3E

Smart people delay, wait and then end up not... "dumb" people just hook up and go to town...

I think the fact that Evolution is still spreading "successful" genes and "unsuccessful" genes become less prevalent is obvious.

What isn't obvious, is as Idiocracy so succinctly puts it, is that gene that are "successful" doesn't necessarily translate to intelligence, good decisions, stable lifestyle, etc.

Re:Massive genetic study shows how humans are evolving by robotresearcher on Sunday September 10, 2017 @05:25PM (#15214388)
That successful genes spread is a tautology. The frequency of a gene in a population compared to its alleles is its success. I wish we could retire the idea of success in an evolution and just talk about gene frequency. Then the irrelevant ideas of goodness and progress don't come up so readily in people's minds.