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Re:What does an innocent man have to do to go free? Plead gu... by superjustice on Friday September 08, 2017 @09:47AM (#15200082)
I often think there should be a superhero archangel comic character that is a ruthless defender of justice. I don't understand the mentality of prosecutors, nor the judges, public defenders and others who are also complacent in an evil system.

I have had three encounters with law enforcement, the first ended in similar fashion to this story. I was charged with a crime I didn't commit which happened to occur on video.

After 18-months, and threats of serious felony charges, I refused to accept a plea. I asked my lawyer if it was illegal to plead guilty to a crime I didn't commit and he said it was.

The prosecutor then says, "the state moves to drop the case citing lack of evidence". Again, the crime (theft) was recorded on videotape and two other guys I didn't know clearly stole the items involved. I won but the court wouldn't actually let me win.

Another time I was caught in an unfortunate incident where a security guard pushed me into a street. I was tackled, tasered, later choked, threatened to be killed and then powerslammed head first on concrete by Detective of the Year, Glenn A. Ritchie, of the Broward County Sheriff's Office.

Ritchie charged me with non-violent misdemeanors and then a day later, alleged felonies in a contradictory and clearly false 2nd police report. I spent 34-days in jail until the charges were non-filed but not until the felony was refiled as a misdemeanor, sent to the wrong address, resulting in a still standing capias warrant for my arrest.

The system is flawed. People who work in the courts, especially in major cities, are not to be celebreated but derided. It's an insane system of high bails, boilerplate plea deals and cold indifference.

Re:What does an innocent man have to do to go free? Plead gu... by Clubber on Friday September 08, 2017 @10:55AM (#15200641)
Public defender offices are funded by the state and they are terribly under funded.

http://www.abajournal.com/magazine/article/the_gideon_revolu...

Because not much political upside to helping criminal defendants exists, many jurisdictions end up with a perennial funding problem ... In both cases, the committee heard about extreme funding shortfalls, excessive caseloads and insufficient pay.

After years of cuts, his budget was down from $9 million to about $6 million, and he had just eight investigators for 21,000 cases per year.

This matters because the majority of defendants—a 2014 study put it at 80 percent—use some kind of indigent defense. That means most Americans charged with a crime are at risk of bad outcomes partly caused by the quality of representation that they can afford.

Re:What does an innocent man have to do to go free? Plead gu... by virmundi on Friday September 08, 2017 @11:44AM (#15201120)
This is where I'd love to see rappers that care about their community out there money. Increase public defender funds. So many predominantly black folk go to jail because they lack the resources to fight the corrupt system.
Re:What does an innocent man have to do to go free? Plead gu... by pizza on Friday September 08, 2017 @02:00PM (#15202496)
Black Lives Matter organized something similar this year for Mother's Day https://www.thenation.com/article/this-mothers-day-black-liv...
Re:What does an innocent man have to do to go free? Plead gu... by CaptSpify on Friday September 08, 2017 @01:25PM (#15202211)
I'm not sure on the best way to handle this, but it seems like this should come from tax money, rather than donation money. Relying on donations to make sure our justice system is working seems like the wrong solution.
Re:What does an innocent man have to do to go free? Plead gu... by virmundi on Friday September 08, 2017 @01:47PM (#15202391)
I don't want to rely on it. I just think this would be one of the best public works rappers can do. "Fuck the police"? Sure with good lawyers that don't just cut a deal.
Re:What does an innocent man have to do to go free? Plead gu... by jjawssd on Friday September 08, 2017 @12:36PM (#15201684)
"out there money." -- what is meant by this?
Re:What does an innocent man have to do to go free? Plead gu... by brepl on Friday September 08, 2017 @12:48PM (#15201784)
put their money
Re:What does an innocent man have to do to go free? Plead gu... by epmaybe on Friday September 08, 2017 @10:08AM (#15200240)
A mentor of mine who used to work for a government agency once told me something that I hadn't really appreciated until recently. To paraphrase, sometimes the best way to change a system that is flawed is to work from within. It's harder, sure, since it takes time to get enough power to make effective change, but it's an idea nonetheless.
Re:What does an innocent man have to do to go free? Plead gu... by hrktb on Friday September 08, 2017 @11:01AM (#15200699)
This is a sane advice on face value.

Yet following it in an heavily corrupt organization means you find yourself doing very dirty stuff to get recognized by your peers, oversee and facilitate corruption to get buy in from your superiors, and crush weaker people to stand on top where you’ll get more power.

In the event you yourself get crushed in this process, the only trace you’ll leave in the world will be dirty things you didn’t agree with in the first place and actually strived to change.

I wonder how much that approach bares fruits when it comes to really shitty organizations.

Re:What does an innocent man have to do to go free? Plead gu... by jacobush on Friday September 08, 2017 @11:51AM (#15201195)
I think it can work, but it requires some kind of laser focus on the "true goal". I also tend to fear what else our (hypothetical) protagonist may do when the ends are (much) more important than the means.
Re:What does an innocent man have to do to go free? Plead gu... by adrianN on Friday September 08, 2017 @02:09PM (#15202579)
If you did enough dirty work to get to the top of a corrupt organisation you can be quickly removed if you try to challenge the status quo. After all, all your peers have a ton of dirt on you.
Re:What does an innocent man have to do to go free? Plead gu... by filoeleven on Friday September 08, 2017 @12:04PM (#15201336)
The best way to change a flawed system is unrelenting public pressure. As others have said, once you're inside the system, you can either stand up for what should be done and be sidelined, or you can shove aside your idealism in order to gain power before trying to make changes. More often than not, that idealism never returns.

I've thought about this more in the political realm, so it may not apply as cleanly in the justice system. We know that public pressure works in politics because they depend on voters to keep voting them in. The only way to stave off a slide into conformity is to hold people accountable for behaving the way they said they would during a campaign. It's not an easy answer since it requires a lot more public participation, but I think we have been lulled into believing that these institutions are self-maintaining once set up, and that is clearly not the case. A few honest and caring people just entering the justice system are going to have a hard time of it. Millions of people outside the system shouting loudly and unceasingly about its abuses have a better shot at causing changes.

Re:What does an innocent man have to do to go free? Plead gu... by geofft on Friday September 08, 2017 @10:58AM (#15200659)
Obligatory New Yorker cartoon: https://condenaststore.com/featured/he-feels-he-can-do-more-...

Out of curiosity, are there good examples of fundamental/systemic flaws -- where it's not that the system needs to be fixed, it's that a new system is needed -- being fixed by people working within the system? The success rate of violent, armed revolution is low, but it has produced some concrete successes (e.g., the existence of the US and more generally the fall of monarchy).

Re:What does an innocent man have to do to go free? Plead gu... by saalweachter on Friday September 08, 2017 @12:38PM (#15201704)
The US is a weird example of an armed revolution because it was a colonial revolt largely by people who already had power and were part of the colonial governments. The layer of government that was being scraped off was relatively thin, locally. For example, both Washington and Jefferson were in the Virginia House of Burgesses, and they're just the first two I googled to find out the details of their pre-Revolutionary political careers.

If the Confederacy had succeeded in seceding, it would have been a very similar revolution - the state governments on down would remain intact, with just a little bit at the top being rearranged. I'm not sure I could name a third, similar armed revolution off the top of my head; most of the ones I'm familiar with involve charismatic outsiders burning down the existing institutions and starting over fresh.

Re:What does an innocent man have to do to go free? Plead gu... by geofft on Friday September 08, 2017 @01:21PM (#15202155)
That's a good point - the leaders of the American Revolution were already "working within the system," they just also led a violent revolt. I think there's a good point to be made that that's one of the best ways to make sure that you can successfully burn the existing system down and put what you want in place.
Re:What does an innocent man have to do to go free? Plead gu... by drharby on Friday September 08, 2017 @11:41AM (#15201071)
That cartoon made my day.
Re:What does an innocent man have to do to go free? Plead gu... by mindslight on Friday September 08, 2017 @11:07AM (#15200756)
The problem is that the bad behavior of these systems is emergent. For this strategy to work, your ability to disregard your own self interest (plus others like you) has to outweigh the self-interest of everyone else making up that system. From what I've seen, most people get tired, succumb to their own self-interest, yet continue telling themselves the altruistic narrative.
Re:What does an innocent man have to do to go free? Plead gu... by ashark on Friday September 08, 2017 @10:21AM (#15200323)
> A mentor of mine who used to work for a government agency once told me something that I hadn't really appreciated until recently. To paraphrase, sometimes the best way to change a system that is flawed is to work from within. It's harder, sure, since it takes time to get enough power to make effective change, but it's an idea nonetheless.

I believe this is formally called the "SLC Punk Maneuver"

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Re:What does an innocent man have to do to go free? Plead gu... by sctb on Friday September 08, 2017 @06:24PM (#15204382)
We've banned this account for continuing to violate the guidelines after we've asked you repeatedly to stop. If you'd like to email us at [email protected], we're happy to unban accounts when we believe they'll post civilly and substantively in the future.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re:What does an innocent man have to do to go free? Plead gu... by tambienben on Friday September 08, 2017 @11:53AM (#15201224)
Ha, ha ha.
Re:What does an innocent man have to do to go free? Plead gu... by adekok on Friday September 08, 2017 @02:00PM (#15202498)
Or, publicly shame them.

There's a reason judges impose gag orders which violate people's right to free speech. They're OK with violating peoples constitutional rights to serve their own self interests.

Who bells the cat?

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Re:What does an innocent man have to do to go free? Plead gu... by dang on Friday September 08, 2017 @11:08AM (#15200761)
You've been posting a ton of unsubstantive and/or uncivil comments that break the HN guidelines and have ignored our request to stop. We ban accounts that do this. Since you've been a user for a few years I'd prefer not to ban you, but if you keep this up we'll have to, so would you please read https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and fix this?

What it boils down to: post civilly and substantively or not at all. Put differently: if you have a substantive point to make, make it thoughtfully; if you don't, please don't comment until you do.

Re:What does an innocent man have to do to go free? Plead gu... by geofft on Friday September 08, 2017 @11:36AM (#15201008)
I'd like to reply to 'bitJericho here - please start commenting in a tone that makes the HN moderators happy, because the positions you're espousing are ones that I think is extremely valuable, and it would be a loss to the site to lose them.

I realize that it's hard to separate a tone that makes the mdoerators unhappy and content that makes the moderators unhappy (I didn't read the comment above as unsubstantive or uncivil at all!) but you gotta play by their rules.

(Or, I guess, burn HN down and start a new one that isn't subservient to capital. I'll join.)

Re:What does an innocent man have to do to go free? Plead gu... by dang on Friday September 08, 2017 @01:17PM (#15202100)
The question is how to make a forum that doesn't burn itself down. 'Tone' is sometimes a word people use to trivialize that challenge. I don't find it trivial (rather hard in fact), but others might do better. There is surely room for new kinds of internet community, and if anybody starts one that produces better results at scale than what we have on Hacker News, I'll be interested. If they do it without paying anybody ('subservient to capital'), I'll be doubly interested.

In the meantime, HN is merely one specific kind of community, and it has specific rules which, if people want to participate, they have to follow. Those rules are at https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html. They're not hard to follow for anyone who wants to.

Re:What does an innocent man have to do to go free? Plead gu... by krapp on Friday September 08, 2017 @10:36AM (#15200445)
>The system is corrupt and should be burned to the ground.

Ok, so we burn the system to the ground. Then what? Crown bitJericho king?

Re:What does an innocent man have to do to go free? Plead gu... by BearGoesChirp on Friday September 08, 2017 @10:59AM (#15200680)
Write a new Constitution given the lessons of the last few centuries.
Re:What does an innocent man have to do to go free? Plead gu... by krapp on Friday September 08, 2017 @11:40AM (#15201066)
But we already have a method in place for changing the Constitution, no revolutions necessary.
Re:What does an innocent man have to do to go free? Plead gu... by wu-ikkyu on Friday September 08, 2017 @11:57AM (#15201271)
The architects who wrote that method also claimed that it would inevitably become ineffective.
Re:What does an innocent man have to do to go free? Plead gu... by krapp on Friday September 08, 2017 @12:17PM (#15201498)
Is there evidence that it has become ineffective?
Re:What does an innocent man have to do to go free? Plead gu... by wu-ikkyu on Friday September 08, 2017 @05:00PM (#15203920)
What type of evidence are you looking for? Constitutional rights are violated every day on a large scale basis by those who have sworn to uphold its principles
Re:What does an innocent man have to do to go free? Plead gu... by krapp on Friday September 08, 2017 @05:59PM (#15204260)
Failed attempts at a Constitutional convention which should have succeeded?
Re:What does an innocent man have to do to go free? Plead gu... by wu-ikkyu on Monday September 11, 2017 @10:10AM (#15218619)
What good would a failed attempt be when the congress which would conduct the convention is corrupted?
Re:What does an innocent man have to do to go free? Plead gu... by scotty79 on Friday September 08, 2017 @11:34AM (#15200996)
Then adopt saner system like the ones in most european countries.

It's such a silly mindset. Do what we currently do in US or anarchy. There are over hundred other countries on earth and significant fraction of them is doing way better than USA in most aspects.

Re:What does an innocent man have to do to go free? Plead gu... by krapp on Friday September 08, 2017 @12:05PM (#15201348)
What seems silly to me is the premise that completely destroying the existing system would somehow result in a saner and more just system replacing it.

Adopting something more akin to European style democracy (which is what I assume you're mostly referring to) is already possible within the US system. That it hasn't been done yet isn't evidence of corruption within that system, but of the culture of the US simply not wanting it.

Re:What does an innocent man have to do to go free? Plead gu... by scotty79 on Friday September 08, 2017 @01:36PM (#15202307)
Yes. It's a silly premise. But almost equally silly is the premise that, a system where so much money and power relies on its insanity can be gradually turned into something different, saner.

You need really a lot of disregard of previous system and power to make any significant changes. You'd need either revolution or invasion. Obama inaptitude shows that the system can't be touched from within even by smart person in position of highest legal power.

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Re:What does an innocent man have to do to go free? Plead gu... by simonh on Friday September 08, 2017 @11:33AM (#15200980)
Having a flawed legal system is what you call a first world problem. For comparison in China prosecutors have so much power that the conviction rate is a tiny almost immeasurable sliver of a fraction below 100%. Conversely with weak rule of law you get lynchings, vendettas and retributive violence. Incarcerating innocent people is terrible and I appreciate the sentiment that it's better that 10 guilty people go free than one innocent is incarcerated, but not that no guilty people are ever brought to justice.

Anarchic theories are premised on the idea that everyone would act as individuals and treat each other equally, but that's not what happens. People naturally form alliances, tribes, religious groups or out and out criminal gangs.

The prosecutorial assumption of infallibility is just one symptom of a wider malaise. IMHO what America needs to appreciate, as a nation, is that it's nothing special. It's just big and therefore powerful, but it really doesn't have any special moral status or exceptional ethical immunity. You see the ideological belief that it does throughout American History from Manifest Destiny to America First, both the isolationist movement of the 40s and today.

America is a great nation, yes. It's a bastion of democracy, true. But it's a very long way from moral infallibility. There's the perception that e.g. Europe is a corrupt den of elites, born from America's struggle for independence from and conflicts with European Monarchies such as England and Spain, but it's ludicrously out of date. The American allergy against Communism is a symptom of this. At it's root communism and socialism is about individual freedom and a caring society, but communism got infected with totalitarianism early on. Individual communists have often been as shocked and appalled by Soviet excesses as anyone else. George Orwell, who wrote Animal Farm and 1984 as critiques of Stalinism was himself as communist, but the distinction between Communists like Orwell and ones like Trotsky is lost on American ideological anti-communism. You really can have a fair and caring society, and real meaningful individual freedoms. They're not absolute, utterly opposed principles and in fact they need each other. You can't have guarantees of real individual freedom without a society that cares about making that guarantee and takes actual steps to protect it. Even Ayn Rand accepted welfare support when she needed it. You can't have a well functioning system of state care and support for individuals without individual freedoms to hold that system to account and drive change when it's needed.

What makes change in the justice system so hard, as in other areas, is this assumption of ideological purity in the American system, mainly by American Republicans I have to say. As a British lifelong Conservative voter I find this hard to cope with but in the post-Reagan era I find very little common ground between myself and mainstream Republicanism these days. It's a bit bewildering realy.

Re:What does an innocent man have to do to go free? Plead gu... by saint_fiasco on Friday September 08, 2017 @10:54AM (#15200620)
You can't have nothing. Something will fill the power vacuum.
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Re:What does an innocent man have to do to go free? Plead gu... by dang on Friday September 08, 2017 @01:10PM (#15202028)
Ok, since now you're crossing into personal attack, I've banned this account until we get a commitment from you that you'll follow the site rules at https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html. You can email [email protected] if you want to do that.
Re:What does an innocent man have to do to go free? Plead gu... by krapp on Friday September 08, 2017 @11:28AM (#15200931)
That makes me privileged, and lucky, and maybe a bit square, but it doesn't prove me wrong.
Re:What does an innocent man have to do to go free? Plead gu... by BeetleB on Friday September 08, 2017 @11:16AM (#15200821)
Said many Iraqi Joes before the US invasion.
Re:What does an innocent man have to do to go free? Plead gu... by RightMillennial on Friday September 08, 2017 @10:28AM (#15200384)
While I kind of agree with the sentiment whose to say the replacement will be any better? And who even has the power to replace the system? Working from within and doing what you can to improve it sounds like the most plausible solution to me.
Re:What does an innocent man have to do to go free? Plead gu... by bitJericho on Friday September 08, 2017 @10:44AM (#15200526)
Sounds great, won't work. Nobody who's in the system wants it changed. The only people willing to even work in the system are corrupt or unable to cope outside of the system.
Re:What does an innocent man have to do to go free? Plead gu... by RightMillennial on Friday September 08, 2017 @10:54AM (#15200626)
Well that's how we got into this mess in the first place. The only people who seem to work in it are incapable of doing the right thing. Doing nothing isn't going to fix it. And burning it to the ground isn't a realistic option.
Re:What does an innocent man have to do to go free? Plead gu... by geofft on Friday September 08, 2017 @11:04AM (#15200720)
Why isn't it a realistic option?
Re:What does an innocent man have to do to go free? Plead gu... by abpavel on Friday September 08, 2017 @02:06PM (#15202554)
How? Why? What? Are you serious? This doesn't sound reasonable in the least.
Re:What does an innocent man have to do to go free? Plead gu... by teddyh on Friday September 08, 2017 @02:55PM (#15202999)
> I often think there should be a superhero archangel comic character that is a ruthless defender of justice. I don't understand the mentality of prosecutors, nor the judges, public defenders and others who are also complacent in an evil system.

A comic book character, you say? Let me quote V for Vendetta, Chapter Five, Versions, second half:

[Scene: Roof of the Old Bailey (building of the Central Criminal Court of England and Wales) in London. V stands beside the large statue of Madam Justice which adorns the top of its dome, and acts out a… conversation of sorts:]

Hello, dear lady.

A lovely evening, is it not?

Forgive me for intruding. Perhaps you were intending to take a stroll. Perhaps you were merely enjoying the view.

No matter. I thought that it was time we had a little chat, you and I.

Ahh… I was forgetting that we are not properly introduced.

I do not have a name. You can call me V.

Madam Justice… this is V.

V… this is Madam Justice.

Hello, madam justice.

“Good evening, V.”

There. Now we know each other. Actually, I’ve been a fan of yours for quite some time. Oh, I know what you’re thinking…

“The poor boy has a crush on me… an adolescent infatuation”

I beg your pardon, Madam. It isn’t like that at all.

I’ve long admired you… albeit only from a distance. I used to stare at you from the streets below when I was a child.

I’d say to my father, “Who is that lady?” and he’d say “That’s Madam Justice.” And I’d say “Isn’t she pretty.”

Please don’t think it was merely physical. I know you’re not that sort of girl. No, I loved you as a person. As an ideal.

That was a long time ago. I’m afraid there’s someone else now…

“What? V? For shame! You have betrayed me for some harlot, some vain and pouting hussy with painted lips and a knowing smile!”

I, Madam? I beg to differ! It was your infidelity that drove me to her arms!

Ah-ha! That surprised you, didn’t it? You thought I didn’t know about your little fling. But I do. I know everything!

Frankly, I wasn’t surprised when I found out. You always did have an eye for a man in uniform.

“Uniform? Why, I’m sure I don’t know what you’re talking about. It was always you, V. You were the only one…”

Liar! Slut! Whore! Deny that you let him have his way with you, him with his armbands and jackboots!

Well? Cat got your tongue?

I thought as much.

Very well. So you stand revealed at last. You are no longer my justice. You are his justice now. You have bedded another.

Well, two can play at that game!

“Sob! Choke! Wh-who is she, V? What is her name?”

Her name is Anarchy. And she has taught me more as a mistress than you ever did.

She has taught me that justice is meaningless without freedom. She is honest. She makes no promises and breaks none. Unlike you, Jezebel.

I used to wonder why you could never look me in the eye. Now I know.

So goodbye, dear lady. I would be saddened by our parting even now, save that you are no longer the woman that I once loved.

Here is a final gift. I leave it at your feet.

[V places on the ground a heart-shaped package wrapped with a bow, bows deeply, then leaves.]

[A large fiery explosion destroys the dome and the statue is toppled. V watches the fire from a distance.]

The flames of freedom. How lovely. How just. Ahh, my precious Anarchy…

“Oh beauty, ’til now I never knew thee.”

Re:What does an innocent man have to do to go free? Plead gu... by walterstucco on Friday September 08, 2017 @10:16AM (#15200295)
this is seriously fucked up

How can you still live there?

Re:What does an innocent man have to do to go free? Plead gu... by UnpossibleJim on Friday September 08, 2017 @10:38AM (#15200475)
My first thought when I saw Broward County was, "Oh! He's in Florida. Now it makes sense." Which is really sad.
Re:What does an innocent man have to do to go free? Plead gu... by abpavel on Friday September 08, 2017 @02:05PM (#15202542)
Why is this downvoted? Sounds like a really fucked up place.