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Re:Toyota Research Institute head says full autonomous drivi... by limeblack on Monday August 28, 2017 @11:05AM (#15116967)
One thing I would love someone to explain is how can people assume cars are going to be automated soon when both planes and trains haven't been automated for various reasons. They are different issues I have gathered but essentially shouldn't trains be dead simple but to this day at least the trains(not metras though) often have someone to stop the train in case of emergencies. Planes are more complex but have lower crash ratings and less obstacles but can't stop and still have 2 plus pilots.
Re:Toyota Research Institute head says full autonomous drivi... by Bartweiss on Monday August 28, 2017 @11:31AM (#15117196)
One point would be that both planes and trains are professionally operated already. That means three of the biggest incentives to automate are missing.

First, they have few human-error crashes; they're both significantly safer than automobiles, so unless automation can do better-than-human disaster recovery (not likely yet) there's minimal safety advantage. You have to outperform well-trained humans instead of random people to save lives.

Second, they don't take much time per traveller to operate. Both often have 100+ passengers per operator, making it relatively cheap to employ skilled human labor. Cars average around 2:1, so there's a lot more time being wasted per passenger-hour.

Third, cars have highly flexible usage. Planes and trains are generally moving people or cargo to approximate destinations, and travel to places design to store them. Cars spend lots of time arriving in storage-free areas - what if your car dropped you off at work and drove to a garage outside the city? And they do lots of last-mile transit - what if your car could go pick up your groceries or dry-cleaning without you?

Broadly, I think there's way more safety and financial incentive for 100% driverless operation of cars than any other mode of travel.

Re:Toyota Research Institute head says full autonomous drivi... by Piskvorrr on Monday August 28, 2017 @12:07PM (#15117563)
Good points. Automated train control maps are not even 2D: they're directed graphs, precisely mapped to sub-foot precision, with all permissible edges fully checked in advance, at design and at mapping. Far easier to navigate than a road network, which can be simplified and approximated to a directed graph, but 1. at the cost of some precision, and 2. orders of magnitude more likely to change unnoticed.
Re:Toyota Research Institute head says full autonomous drivi... by Eridrus on Monday August 28, 2017 @11:18AM (#15117089)
If we had autonomous planes it wouldn't significantly reduce cost or increase usage. But there is a lot of investment in autonomous drones.

Planes also have a very high safety bar to begin with, which cars do not.

Same thing about trains, there's very little value in doing so, and resistance in the form of unions in some locations. Some trains are fully automated though, here's an article with some more info: https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/wnj75z/why-dont-w...

Frankly having some dude from Toyota, who don't seem to be very invested in this space, tell me he doesn't think it's going to work isn't very convincing. Chris Urmson saying it might take up to 30 years is far more convincing: http://spectrum.ieee.org/cars-that-think/transportation/self...

But that's 30 years for the entire planet, not until it works at all. WayMo is already letting people ride their cars in Phoenix - presumably one of the places with good weather and easy roads, so I think metro-level deployment in the next 4 years seems about right.

[EDIT]: And on the topic of trains. The MTA in NYC can't even seem to handle basic technical projects, like upgrading signaling infrastructure, or just extending a rail line a few miles without spending billions of dollars, so there's probably a decent chance that some of these are not automated due to sheer incompetence.

Re:Toyota Research Institute head says full autonomous drivi... by ScottBurson on Monday August 28, 2017 @11:28AM (#15117170)
Gill Pratt is not "some dude" -- he's a robotics researcher with a PhD from MIT, and was a DARPA program manager [0].

[0] http://corporatenews.pressroom.toyota.com/article_display.cf...

Re:Toyota Research Institute head says full autonomous drivi... by Eridrus on Monday August 28, 2017 @11:54AM (#15117435)
To engage with the substance of his argument a bit more, his argument is that perfection is a long way away:

> “Historically human beings have shown zero tolerance for injury or death caused by flaws in a machine,” Pratt said. “As wonderful as AI is, AI systems are inevitably flawed… We’re not even close to Level 5. It’ll take many years and many more miles, in simulated and real world testing, to achieve the perfection required for level 5 autonomy.”

I can believe that, but I also disagree that we need to be there for it to be useful. Level 4 is enough for large scale deployments.

Re:Toyota Research Institute head says full autonomous drivi... by munin on Monday August 28, 2017 @01:40PM (#15118490)
Lots of people make this argument. I have a counter-argument: when a technology is convenient or appealing enough, people will overlook even very obvious safety/health problems. Consider texting while driving, drinking, smoking/vaping, even driving itself. Cognitively, we know that there are a bunch of things we do that are dangerous, but we do them anyway out of habit or convenience. The argument that assumes we demand "zero tolerance" seems to assume that every person is a run-5k-a-day, celery eating, take-the-bus, machine. That's far from the case. We do tons of things knowing they're bad and risky already.

I think it's far more likely that there would be a three step process for this technology to be adopted: first it's early adopters and everyone else is like "whoa that's too far" (I think this has already happened), then people start to uneasily use it, and when it's good enough they realize "oh holy crap, the machine can drive while I watch Netflix! this is awesome" and then they'll use it constantly. Soon, it just blends into the background. Maybe it isn't 100% safe, but what is?

I don't think you'll get the truth out of focus groups, either. Try to hold a focus group on self driving car adoption and 99% of the people will tell you "only when it's perfect." Probably if you ask the same focus group if they text/eat/put on makeup and drive, 99% of them would tell you "absolutely not" when I'm sure that 100% of them do. I think that once a somewhat good enough assist gets into peoples hands, it won't stop.

Re:Toyota Research Institute head says full autonomous drivi... by linkregister on Tuesday August 29, 2017 @01:32AM (#15122309)
For a real-life example, just look up "Tesla autopilot almost crash" on YouTube. There are plenty of people who let Autopilot drive when they really shouldn't.
Re:Toyota Research Institute head says full autonomous drivi... by gwbas1c on Monday August 28, 2017 @11:31AM (#15117195)
With software, it's always easy to make something appear to work. All the corner cases make something take 10-100x longer than the functional prototype.

This became painfully obvious with the article floating around where a car misread a stop sign with a small amount of marking as a 45MPH speed limit sign. It's pretty clear that if a car is mistaking a red sign for a white sign, we have a very long time to go before the car can safely drive itself without a human observer to intervene when needed.

When it comes to automated driving, we need to keep our optimism in check and know that it can take decades before we have safe robotic taxis. They may become legal in countries with lower bars for safety before they are legal in the US.

The big problem, I think, will be when the drunks get into accidents because they will turn on autonomous driving, and don't get pulled over. Instead, they won't be sober enough to observe and intervene when the car screws up.

Re:Toyota Research Institute head says full autonomous drivi... by mikeash on Monday August 28, 2017 @11:49AM (#15117381)
The other day, I came within two feet of a crash because the other driver completely disregarded a red light.

It's pretty clear that if a human can't even pay attention to a light directly pointed at them, we have a very long time to go before humans can safely drive cars without a computer to intervene when needed.

Re:Toyota Research Institute head says full autonomous drivi... by frahs on Monday August 28, 2017 @12:08PM (#15117579)
One thing worth mentioning (even though I agree with the gist of your point) is that machines make the same mistakes consistently. This is pretty rare for a human. Imagine 10% of the cars on the road are autonomous and they all make this same mistake.
Re:Toyota Research Institute head says full autonomous drivi... by mikeash on Monday August 28, 2017 @12:17PM (#15117665)
There are a lot of road design features that come from the fact that humans do make certain mistakes consistently. For example, the US's love affair with four-way stops comes from drivers' inability to safely navigate uncontrolled intersections, even when there's no particular reason they couldn't. Stoplights usually have a delay between the red light for one direction and the green light for the next direction because driver's often run fresh reds, or get stuck in the intersection and need to clear out. There are tons of warning signs because drivers can't be trusted to notice something as simple as a sharp curve coming up.

Of course, the road system is designed for humans' foibles, not computers' foibles, and computers will have to deal with that. But the bar is low.

Computers aren't really as consistent as you say, either. Obviously, a deterministic machine will produce the same outputs for the same inputs. But when your inputs are camera data from the real world, you'll never get the same input twice. For example, my car sometimes misreads or fails to read speed limit signs, but it'll usually read the exact same sign perfectly fine the next time I go past.

Re:Toyota Research Institute head says full autonomous drivi... by bluGill on Monday August 28, 2017 @03:59PM (#15119573)
I wonder if in the future the law will say self driving cars can ignore all those signs when the car chooses to. Obviously there will be a lot of legalese about it, but most signs can be safely ignored already if you understand all the hazards - this is why people tend to just slow down at stop signs not come to a complete stop.

This is better for the environment, there is a lot of energy lost in a full stop for a stop sign that could be saved: less air pollution/CO2 to deal with.

Re:Toyota Research Institute head says full autonomous drivi... by euyyn on Monday August 28, 2017 @12:52PM (#15118053)
What models of car read speed limit signs?
Re:Toyota Research Institute head says full autonomous drivi... by mikeash on Monday August 28, 2017 @01:11PM (#15118225)
Teslas can (although the second revision of the Autopilot hardware doesn't do it yet).
Re:Toyota Research Institute head says full autonomous drivi... by andrewaylett on Monday August 28, 2017 @05:54PM (#15120405)
The rental Astra we had the other month did.
Re:Toyota Research Institute head says full autonomous drivi... by MarkMc on Monday August 28, 2017 @06:21PM (#15120598)
I think it's the opposite. Humans constantly make the same mistake like being drunk, tired, using a phone. With autonomous cars every single collision will be investigated - where the software is at fault a new improved version will be pushed to all cars, elimination the problem. This systematic improvement will mirror the improvement of airplane systems, but with a much faster time frame
Re:Toyota Research Institute head says full autonomous drivi... by ZeroGravitas on Monday August 28, 2017 @11:38AM (#15117260)
"This became painfully obvious with the article floating around where a car misread a stop sign with a small amount of marking as a 45MPH speed limit sign. It's pretty clear that if a car is mistaking a red sign for a white sign, we have a very long time to go before the car can safely drive itself without a human observer to intervene when needed."

I think you misread that article.

Someone built their own toy implementation of an CV sign recognizer. Then, with full access to the code, they reverse engineered visual distortions that could seem innocuous to humans but trip up their model.

It's not a real world issue as far as I'm aware (though obviously signs can be misread or missed, but not invisibly vandalized)

Re:Toyota Research Institute head says full autonomous drivi... by jccooper on Monday August 28, 2017 @12:28PM (#15117800)
While they did use their own simple DNN classifier (because they couldn't find one), it was treated as a black box for purposes of the attack. A more robust classifier (probably using multiple methods) would be more resistant to attack, but the attack would still work, just the changes would be more obvious. At some point you hit "human-recognizable" but it's unclear where that point is.
Re:Toyota Research Institute head says full autonomous drivi... by averagewall on Monday August 28, 2017 @09:25PM (#15121492)
As long as you have to intentionally modify the sign to cause confusion, as opposed to doing random vandalism, I don't think this is a problem at all. It's like a person spray painting extra loops to change a 30 into an 80 or sticking a home-made sign over a real one so it's indistinguishable to most drivers. People aren't going to do that any more than they already do and it'll still be just as illegal.
Re:Toyota Research Institute head says full autonomous drivi... by Eridrus on Monday August 28, 2017 @11:41AM (#15117306)
Sure, some image classifiers can be fooled by some vandalism that requires a high degree of technical sophistication, but

a) Humans can be fooled by vandalising a stop sign too. The difference here is that the change is imperceptible to humans... but does this matter?

b) A lot of self-driving work leans heavily on maps which will know to expect a stop sign.

Re:Toyota Research Institute head says full autonomous drivi... by euyyn on Monday August 28, 2017 @12:54PM (#15118063)
It does matter if half the cars read a speed limit differently than the other half.
Re:Toyota Research Institute head says full autonomous drivi... by devmunchies on Monday August 28, 2017 @11:37AM (#15117247)
> a car misread a stop sign with a small amount of marking as a 45MPH speed limit sign

That's what happens when the sign were made for humans. They should start putting QR codes under traffic signs, with the human sign as a fall back or as a second point of reference.

Re:Toyota Research Institute head says full autonomous drivi... by cmurf on Monday August 28, 2017 @12:51PM (#15118038)
QR codes are a goddamn eyesore. I'm voting against any city counselor who thinks they're a good idea. Find another way.
Re:Toyota Research Institute head says full autonomous drivi... by nayuki on Monday August 28, 2017 @11:42AM (#15117309)
How can you verify at a glance that the QR Code associated with a human-readable sign is correct?
Re:Toyota Research Institute head says full autonomous drivi... by devmunchies on Monday August 28, 2017 @02:37PM (#15118957)
I said this in my comment: "...with the human sign as a fall back or as a second point of reference."

You wouldn't remove human sign identification from the algorithm, you just supplement it with the small QR code under the sign.

Re:Toyota Research Institute head says full autonomous drivi... by Eridrus on Monday August 28, 2017 @11:47AM (#15117368)
Not that I think QR codes are a good idea, but why does this property matter?

People can be dicks to each other in myriad ways, I don't find these arguments that you could trick self-driving cars super compelling.

Re:Toyota Research Institute head says full autonomous drivi... by skywhopper on Monday August 28, 2017 @11:31AM (#15117194)
It's important to point out that the WayMo project in Phoenix is only barely getting started, only serves limited areas, at limited times, and presumably in limited weather conditions; and most importantly that there's still a human driver in the vehicle at all times. A full-scale metro-wide service would need to operate at all hours, in most any weather, and without a human driver. That's not happening within four years.
Re:Toyota Research Institute head says full autonomous drivi... by joshuamorton on Monday August 28, 2017 @11:41AM (#15117293)
>WayMo project in Phoenix is only barely getting started, only serves limited areas,

Sure but is this because of capability or number of vehicles?

>at limited times,

Sure, because drivers don't want to work late at night.

>and presumably in limited weather conditions;

Why's that?

>and most importantly that there's still a human driver in the vehicle at all times.

Sure, but this isn't due to capability, but for regulatory reasons. As far as I know, the firefly vehicles (the cute little bubble ones) don't have steering wheels, and were in use 3 years ago. This argument doesn't make sense to me.

Re:Toyota Research Institute head says full autonomous drivi... by upvotinglurker on Thursday August 31, 2017 @11:55AM (#15141169)
>>and presumably in limited weather conditions; >Why's that?

Because Phoenix has extremely low precipitation: http://www.usclimatedata.com/climate/phoenix/arizona/united-...

Re:Toyota Research Institute head says full autonomous drivi... by tyingq on Monday August 28, 2017 @11:35AM (#15117226)
>some dude from Toyota, who don't seem to be very invested in this space, tell me he doesn't think it's going to work isn't very convincing

Similarly, opinions from those heavily invested aren't convincing.

Are there people with credible experience, but without bias either way, that are giving projections on when it might be viable?

Re:Toyota Research Institute head says full autonomous drivi... by ghaff on Monday August 28, 2017 @11:55AM (#15117449)
John Leonard at MIT is one long-time (going back to 2007 DARPA challenge) researcher who is very skeptical.

e.g. http://searchcio.techtarget.com/blog/TotalCIO/Driverless-car...

"I think that driving exposes fundamental issues in intelligence, fundamental issues in how the brain works. And we might be a very long way away.”

Re:Toyota Research Institute head says full autonomous drivi... by Eridrus on Monday August 28, 2017 @12:18PM (#15117676)
I think his research area (SLAM) might blind him a bit to the engineering side of things. Simultaneous Localization and Mapping is great if it works, but for something with high enough value... you can just map it from the start, and it makes your problem much easier. Which seems to be the approach people are taking.
Re:Toyota Research Institute head says full autonomous drivi... by ghaff on Monday August 28, 2017 @12:31PM (#15117839)
Mapping does make things easier and it arguably jump-started the current wave of autonomous vehicle work. But then you have to move beyond a precise map of how the world is supposed to be to how the world actually is including all the unpredictable behaviors of humans in the space.

Having listened to Leonard speak, his skepticism seems to mostly be around how you deal with all the things like left hand turns in busy traffic, police waving people around an accident, etc. that happen on a daily basis.

Re:Toyota Research Institute head says full autonomous drivi... by Eridrus on Monday August 28, 2017 @12:55PM (#15118079)
I think that for a large enough benefit we will adapt how we interact with these systems.

Before automobiles it was normal for people to walk in the middle of the street, but we adapted (some would argue this was a bad thing ofc).

I don't think it's a prerequisite for autonomous systems to be the same as humans, the benefit is just too large for us to wait.

Re:Toyota Research Institute head says full autonomous drivi... by Piskvorrr on Monday August 28, 2017 @12:02PM (#15117516)
MTA has 100+ years of legacy track. Imagine trying to retrofit anything into a 100-year-old codebase. Ouch.
Re:Toyota Research Institute head says full autonomous drivi... by dsfyu404ed on Monday August 28, 2017 @01:11PM (#15118224)
It's not uncommon to slap a DRO kit on a 100yo machine. 100yo bridges routinely get upgrades in surface coating and/or instrumentation/electronics.
Re:Toyota Research Institute head says full autonomous drivi... by cmurf on Monday August 28, 2017 @12:57PM (#15118103)
In effect, aviation and automobile infrastructures likewise have 100 year old code bases. And for cars, it varies by state (and county and city but mostly by state).
Re:Toyota Research Institute head says full autonomous drivi... by SEJeff on Monday August 28, 2017 @11:21AM (#15117122)
Planes are mostly automated. The pilots are involved for takeoff and landing or emergencies, but little else. All modern Airbus or Boeing planes are mostly flown with autopilot. The human component is still involved primarily for the "what if it breaks" case where the software isn't there today. A computer would likely have never considered putting a plane into the Hudson river, but that pilot saved a lot of people by doing it.

Actual aircraft can be fully automated for landing at least. In the US Army, I flew the Shadow 200 TUAV and it had a thing called the T.A.L.S. (Tactical Automated Landing System)[1] which does exactly what you'd assume it does by the acronymn. It is a monopulse radar tracking system on the ground with a transponder on the plane. You fly the UAV (Unmanned Aerial Vehicle) into a small area at one end of the runway and click the "Land AV" button (A.V. == Aerial Vehicle) and the landing is 100% hands off. You have the option to cancel the landing if wind or the parameters are off down to 10ft, but below that it is land or crash trying!

For trains, the safest ones are automated, but Unions (in the US at least) prevent most of the autonomous technology from being deployed. Where I live, in Chicago, we had a train conductor fall asleep and the train went up the escalator and crashed into the turnstiles at terminal 2 of Ohare[2]. A computer would have prevented this from happening as a computer would neither have been speeding or sleeping. In that incident, the automated breaking systems had never been tested and in fact were configured / setup wrong, so they both failed. This has been rectified since and additional barriers have been constructed. That being said, there are lots of fully automated trains[3], you just might be unaware of them.

    [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AAI_RQ-7_Shadow#Design

    [2] http://www.chicagotribune.com/g00/news/ct-ohare-blue-line-crash-ntsb-report-met-20150326-story.html?i10c.referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com%2F

    [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_automated_urban_metro_subway_systems#Grade_of_Automation_4_Systems
Re:Toyota Research Institute head says full autonomous drivi... by IsaacL on Tuesday August 29, 2017 @07:03AM (#15123437)
I've heard the opposite. [1] You sound like you have some first-hand experience though, so I'd like to hear what you think of the below:

That’s about the most reckless and grotesque characterization of an airline pilot’s job I’ve ever heard. To say that a 787, or any other airliner, can fly “unaided” and that pilots are on hand to “babysit the autopilot” isn’t just hyperbole or a poetic stretch of the facts. It isn’t just a little bit false. And that a highly respected technology magazine wouldn’t know better, and would allow such a statement to be published, shows you just how pervasive this mythology is. Similarly, in an article in the New York Times not long ago, you would have read how Boeing pilots spend “just seven minutes” piloting their planes during a typical flight. Airbus pilots, the story continued, spend even less time at the controls.

Confident assertions like these appear in the media all the time, to the point where they’re taken for granted. Reporters, most of whom have limited background knowledge of the topic, have a bad habit of taking at face value the claims of researchers and academics who, valuable as their work may be, often have little sense of the day-to-day operational realities of commercial flying. Cue yet another aeronautics professor or university scientist who will blithely assert that yes, without a doubt, a pilotless future is just around the corner. Consequently, travelers have come to have a vastly exaggerated sense of the capabilities of present-day cockpit technology, and they greatly misunderstand how pilots interface with that technology.

I’d like to see a remotely operated plane perform a high-speed takeoff abort after an engine failure, followed by a brake fire and the evacuation of 250 passengers. I would like to see one troubleshoot a pneumatic problem requiring a diversion over mountainous terrain. I’d like to see it thread through a storm front over the middle of the ocean. The idea of trying to handle any one of these, from a room thousands of miles away, is about the scariest thing I can hardly imagine. Hell, even the simple things. Flying is very organic — complex, fluid, always changing — and decision-making is constant and critical. On any given flight, there are innumerable contingencies, large and small, requiring the attention and visceral appraisal of the crew.

[1] http://www.askthepilot.com/questionanswers/automation-myths/

Re:Toyota Research Institute head says full autonomous drivi... by SEJeff on Tuesday August 29, 2017 @10:20AM (#15124435)
I don't think that disagrees with my comment in how I meant it, but perhaps the author of that took what I said a bit out of context from where I see it. Pilots are there for the edge cases which are the 1-5% of the time life or death situations, like the ones listed above. I listed the miracle on the hudson as an example of a human performing life saving things a computer would never do.

Factually, autopilots are what actually fly the overwhelming flight hours in commercial aviation. The pilot takes off, gets to altitude, sets the heading with the assistance of tech like a VOR[1], sets the autopilot, and then just scans the instrument panels for the duration of the flight. They then take over for the approach and landing. I strongly doubt any commercial pilot would disagree with this (I've got several in my family, but am not one myself). The fact is that the number one cause of aircraft crashes is pilot error. So for the 1-5% where a human would indeed prevent a crash as mentioned in your article, over 50% [2] of the fatal crashes are in fact due to human error.

Regarding the last paragraph, I was the pilot on a mission over the Sinjar Mountain[3] range and had my altimeter go haywire and think I was at 20,000ft AGL (above ground level) when I was in fact more like 7500ft AGL. The troubleshooting for a remote plane is exactly the same as any IFR (instrument flight rating aka you can't see outside of the cockpit due to weather) rated plane when you have zero visibility. You trust your instincts and the sensors / instruments. I knew the altimeter was totally full of lies as the plane started descending below the tops of the mountains thereby killing my signal. So I set the camera to "nose" which means straight forward and when I regained communications, I managed to switch it to manual roll ("roll knobs as they call it") and did a turn left as hard as feasible to miss the tip of one of the mountains. Totally ignoring the altimeter, I flew it home with the aid of the camera to gauge rough altitude and safely landed the plane. Do they crash occasionally? Sure. However, none of these were designed with safety critical autopilot and that could certainly be developed with today's software and hardware. That pilot is arguing "computers can't replace me!!!", but in reality if they did, the majority of the crashes[1] that are fatal would not happen in the first place.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VHF_omnidirectional_range

[1] http://www.planecrashinfo.com/cause.htm

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinjar_Mountains

Re:Toyota Research Institute head says full autonomous drivi... by euyyn on Monday August 28, 2017 @01:06PM (#15118172)
There's also automated take off. Fighter pilots taking off carriers have to grab a couple of handlebars in the cockpit, whose purpose is only that the pilot doesn't instinctively intervene during take off.
Re:Toyota Research Institute head says full autonomous drivi... by nradov on Monday August 28, 2017 @03:45PM (#15119468)
Not really. The handlebars aren't to prevent instinctive intervention, but rather to guard against accidentally bumping the controls during high acceleration. At that point the airplane is physically attached to the catapult; the autopilot isn't doing anything. As soon as the aircraft leaves the catapult the pilot takes the controls again.
Re:Toyota Research Institute head says full autonomous drivi... by bb611 on Monday August 28, 2017 @08:29PM (#15121268)
There is no automation in takeoff for current USN carrier based aircraft. The F-18 is the most automated, and the process is this:

1. Pilot sets takeoff conditions (throttles, flaps)

2. Pilot signals deck crew

3. Catapult accelerates the plane off the deck

4. The plane's fly by wire control system pitches the plane for optimal Angle of Attack for the wings (IIRC - 8.1* without flaps).

Once the aggressive acceleration of the catapult is complete, the pilot takes control again and begins flying - this is less than 1 second after catapult release.

Here's an example catapult launch from a USN F-18 pilot: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nj9D1Ls-_JM

If you look at the stick directly in between the pilot's legs, you'll see him put his right hand on it at ~4.5 seconds. His left hand is on the throttles.

Re:Toyota Research Institute head says full autonomous drivi... by AndrewKemendo on Monday August 28, 2017 @01:54PM (#15118633)
No that's not how that works.
Re:Toyota Research Institute head says full autonomous drivi... by euyyn on Monday August 28, 2017 @03:23PM (#15119289)
That is how Prof. Missy Cummings presented it in MIT's Human Factors class ~6 years ago. I've never seen a fighter cockpit, but she was a pilot herself, so I'll take her word for it :)
Re:Toyota Research Institute head says full autonomous drivi... by ghaff on Monday August 28, 2017 @06:20PM (#15120592)
I've heard her tell this story. My impression (as I recall) was that it was to show the catapult operator that you weren't touching anything. But even though this is just about being flung mechanically off the deck, the basic idea applies. When the automated system is doing its thing, it can be harmful to interfere.
Re:Toyota Research Institute head says full autonomous drivi... by nradov on Monday August 28, 2017 @12:01PM (#15117512)
Military UAVs have a high crash rate.

There's no autopilot which could have successfully landed an Airbus A320 in the Hudson River.

Re:Toyota Research Institute head says full autonomous drivi... by Animats on Monday August 28, 2017 @03:46PM (#15119483)
That aircraft was mostly landed by the Airbus stability control system. The pilot's job was to make the decision to land it there. Read the book "Fly by Wire", by William Langewiesche.
Re:Toyota Research Institute head says full autonomous drivi... by throwawayjava on Monday August 28, 2017 @12:16PM (#15117651)
And no autopilot would intentionally ram a plane into the side of a mountain.

These edge-cases are uninteresting IMO.

Re:Toyota Research Institute head says full autonomous drivi... by rsync on Monday August 28, 2017 @03:59PM (#15119576)
"These edge-cases are uninteresting IMO."

On the contrary, these edge cases are by far the most interesting thing. Not just tabloid-interesting, but in terms of generating usable data.

Re:Toyota Research Institute head says full autonomous drivi... by nradov on Monday August 28, 2017 @02:30PM (#15118916)
On the contrary. The edge cases are really all that count.
Re:Toyota Research Institute head says full autonomous drivi... by throwawayjava on Monday August 28, 2017 @02:56PM (#15119099)
We shouldn't demand that our systems work in 100% of cases. Nine Nines -- or even less, in the case of autos -- is enough.

You can argue that autonomous flight doesn't yet have Nine Nines. I would probably agree. But "Miracle on the Hudson" was just that, and extremely rare situations should not be a standard-bearer for allowing autonomous flight. In the same way that suicidal/homicidal humans shouldn't be the standard-bearer for allowing human flight.

Re:Toyota Research Institute head says full autonomous drivi... by adrianN on Monday August 28, 2017 @11:09AM (#15116996)
There are no good technical reasons why trains are not automated more often. The technology is there, many trains do in fact run autonomously. It's just unpopular for long distance trains because current systems don't do obstacle detection and its hard to secure long distance tracks against obstacles. But for high speed trains at least there is no point in trying to visually recognize obstacles: if you see an obstacle it's already too late to brake meaningfully.
Re:Toyota Research Institute head says full autonomous drivi... by SEJeff on Monday August 28, 2017 @11:22AM (#15117131)
Level 4 automation trains do in fact do obstacle detection and are capable of unattended operation:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_automated_urban_metro_...

Re:Toyota Research Institute head says full autonomous drivi... by noobermin on Monday August 28, 2017 @11:18AM (#15117087)
>It's just unpopular for long distance trains because current systems don't do obstacle detection and its hard to secure long distance tracks against obstacles.

That doesn't sound like it's just because "unpopular", in fact, that sounds like a technical reason. It sounds like you're really saying "they are limited, but people are bad too, so it shouldn't matter."

Re:Toyota Research Institute head says full autonomous drivi... by sannee on Monday August 28, 2017 @11:12AM (#15117035)
The price of a plane/train is astronomical compared to what you have to pay for a pilot. I mean, you could literally buy a pilot for a millenia for the price of a jetliner (100M$ for jetliner / 100k$/year for pilot). There just isn't a very large economical incentive to automate that job out.
Re:Toyota Research Institute head says full autonomous drivi... by ceejayoz on Monday August 28, 2017 @12:11PM (#15117606)
It's not one pilot, though. It's two pilots, times two shifts a day, plus some extras to cover vacation, sickness, etc.

There was enough pressure to engineer away flight engineers, navigators, and radio operators in cockpits. I wouldn't expect them to pass on potential savings in the low-margin world of airlines.

Re:Toyota Research Institute head says full autonomous drivi... by throwawayjava on Monday August 28, 2017 @12:14PM (#15117630)
And still, the pilot portion of the cost of operation for planes is in the single digits. You barely scrape into the double digits (maybe 20% MAX, closer to 10 I think) if you count all labor.
Re:Toyota Research Institute head says full autonomous drivi... by ceejayoz on Monday August 28, 2017 @12:31PM (#15117838)
http://www.cnn.com/travel/article/how-airlines-make-less-tha...

> "With a net profit margin of just 2.4%, airlines only retain $5.42 per passenger carried," said Tony Tyler CEO of International Air Transport Association (IATA) at the group's 70th AGM in Doha, Qatar.

I suspect they're interested in single-digit cost reductions.

Re:Toyota Research Institute head says full autonomous drivi... by btian on Monday August 28, 2017 @01:13PM (#15118244)
Airlines will kill to get another 10% in margin.
Re:Toyota Research Institute head says full autonomous drivi... by throwawayjava on Monday August 28, 2017 @01:43PM (#15118522)
So are flight attendants impossible to automate/do without? Or are there perhaps other forces -- beyond technical ones -- keeping humans in the plane?
Re:Toyota Research Institute head says full autonomous drivi... by ghaff on Monday August 28, 2017 @02:27PM (#15118892)
AFAIK, the FAA requires a certain number of flight attendants for safety reasons.
Re:Toyota Research Institute head says full autonomous drivi... by throwawayjava on Monday August 28, 2017 @02:57PM (#15119103)
Right, that's my point.
Re:Toyota Research Institute head says full autonomous drivi... by l5870uoo9y on Monday August 28, 2017 @11:21AM (#15117117)
The Copenhagen Metro[1] have been running driverless for a decade. It was the first metro in Copenhagen. Had there been a legacy system to replace I doubt it would have been made driverless. It is properly due to the general "conservatism" (vested interests, old ways of doing it) in established systems. It takes a certain power to disrupt this.

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copenhagen_Metro

Re:Toyota Research Institute head says full autonomous drivi... by throwawayjava on Monday August 28, 2017 @12:01PM (#15117511)
The economics couldn't be more different.

Driver salary is 26% of the cost of trucking.

Driver salary is 52% of the cost of a taxi.

Those numbers are in the single digits for aircraft and trains.

We could replace pilots and train operators, technologically speaking. But the incentives are not (yet) large enough to overcome the regulatory and cultural barriers. We'd rather have that extra order of magnitude of safety, because it costs so little compared to other expenses.

The cost/benefit calculation for drivers is fundamentally different.

Re:Toyota Research Institute head says full autonomous drivi... by ghaff on Monday August 28, 2017 @12:15PM (#15117643)
>Driver salary is 52% of the cost of a taxi.

If you drop the utilization, the cost of the driver as a percentage probably goes up a bit. But here's the thing about those numbers.

Yes, driver salary is a big chunk of taxi cost but flip things around. It's only about half the cost. In other words, there's this widespread assumption that autonomy totally changes the nature of automobiles and automobile ownership even though it only cuts the cost in half.

Ask yourself. If you own a car today, would getting a 50% discount on taxi rides completely change your behavior. Maybe it would for some at the margins but only at the margins.

Re:Toyota Research Institute head says full autonomous drivi... by com2kid on Monday August 28, 2017 @03:19PM (#15119263)
> Ask yourself. If you own a car today, would getting a 50% discount on taxi rides completely change your behavior. Maybe it would for some at the margins but only at the margins.

Look longer term.

Parking spaces in cities cost ~30k. (And in some cities, a lot more than that). Included with a house, they are still part of the price (no free lunch).

Over a 30 year mortgage, that is 1k a year.

In California, car insurance is almost 2k a year. (Oddly enough, 1.1k in New York State!)

So 3k a year just to have the privilege of driving a car.

Apparently an average new car now days cost 31k. (Which seems insane to me, but that is what people are buying).

Being generous and rounding down a bit, that is another 5k a year.

So now 8k a year, before gas, before maintenance, before any warranty problems, before screws in tires, etc.

If mass transit can replace commuting to work, then weekend outings with automated taxis become very doable. If you give $5 per ride (on par with UberPool, though I realize that isn't profitable), it is 1600 rides a year to break even with owning a car. (Though ownership goes down after the car is paid off, 600 rides a year to break even!)

Re:Toyota Research Institute head says full autonomous drivi... by Robotbeat on Monday August 28, 2017 @04:17PM (#15119715)
1) Now the taxi can operate day and night without substantial breaks. That reduces per-passenger-mile amortization costs by at least a factor of 2.

2) Especially since amortization cost is also reduced, you might as well electrify the vehicle (this requires some sort of robot arm for fast charging, but I suppose you could pay someone like $0.50 per cycle to plug and unplug a bunch of vehicles in the interim). That reduces fuel costs by a factor of 2 and maintenance costs even more.

3) No driver means room for more people or ability to shrink the car, reducing all the above costs.

So you've now reduced all the other costs by a factor of 2. That means your overall costs are now reduced by 75% or more. Yeah, that's starting to look pretty attractive.

Re:Toyota Research Institute head says full autonomous drivi... by jpatokal on Tuesday August 29, 2017 @01:04AM (#15122200)
1) It's already very common for taxis to operate two shifts per day with two drivers. Also, there's less demand in the middle of the night than there is at peak hours.
Re:Toyota Research Institute head says full autonomous drivi... by throwawayjava on Monday August 28, 2017 @02:58PM (#15119107)
Sure. But even if we all own our own cars, level 5 autonomy is still a game-changer.

IMO the killer app is in freight anyways.

Re:Toyota Research Institute head says full autonomous drivi... by euyyn on Monday August 28, 2017 @01:09PM (#15118206)
Getting a 50% discount on taxi rides would make me never consider any other option when I need a taxi.
Re:Toyota Research Institute head says full autonomous drivi... by ghaff on Monday August 28, 2017 @07:57PM (#15121142)
It depends on the circumstances. On the other hand, for me, if taxi rides were half the price I doubt it would affect my ridership at all over the course of a year. MAYBE for one or two marginal car rentals.
Re:Toyota Research Institute head says full autonomous drivi... by BurningFrog on Monday August 28, 2017 @12:10PM (#15117595)
> Driver salary is 52% of the cost of a taxi.

On top of that, the space and interfaces for the driver is a substantial part of the cost and weight of the vehicle itself.

Re:Toyota Research Institute head says full autonomous drivi... by mjamesaustin on Monday August 28, 2017 @11:20AM (#15117108)
One of my friends is a train engineer. I can tell you that it's ABSURD how little automation is used in many train systems, and it's definitely not because of a lack of technology.

To give an example, my friend has to memorize the required speeds for each different section and turn in every train he runs, and has to manually adjust the train's speed accordingly.

Literally all of that can and should be done automatically, but the industry hasn't caught up with what is technologically possible.

Re:Toyota Research Institute head says full autonomous drivi... by Theodores on Monday August 28, 2017 @01:10PM (#15118217)
In Japan it works the same way, although, as everywhere outside of the USA, automation is coming/inevitable.

The white glove pointing is all about being on time, it is a discipline and hitting those exactly on time arrival-departures comes down to train drivers knowing what speed they are doing without looking at instruments, which are covered during training.

Maybe the Danes have their own variation of this obsessive stop-watch training. A system that works efficiently does not have to be computerised, fantastic teamwork and dedicated professionalism can suffice.

In other endeavours, we still have not fully automated coffee, instead of a perfectly adequate beverage from a machine some prefer a human operator to operate the machine as if it was some rocket-surgery skill/craft. I don't think train operation is like that, a faux professionalism, maybe programming is nearer the mark, some programmers use a text editor which is ridiculous when they could use an IDE. Furthermore some programmers roll their own code rather than just re-use some existing module.

Re:Toyota Research Institute head says full autonomous drivi... by wang_li on Monday August 28, 2017 @01:11PM (#15118230)
Systems to manage train speed already exist, it's just that operating companies have not deployed them fully. It's required by law that these systems be in place, but either they've requested waivers, or the law keeps being amended to accommodate their failure to deploy.
Re:Toyota Research Institute head says full autonomous drivi... by manmal on Monday August 28, 2017 @01:06PM (#15118180)
I would not want to ride a train where a memorization error can lead to a crash.
Re:Toyota Research Institute head says full autonomous drivi... by wnevets on Monday August 28, 2017 @11:08AM (#15116990)
>when both planes and trains haven't been automated for various reasons.

I thought both were already highly automated?

Re:Toyota Research Institute head says full autonomous drivi... by w0utert on Monday August 28, 2017 @11:27AM (#15117164)
Automated: yes. Autonomous: no.

There's a fundamental difference between the two. Airplane autopilots are basically scripted, and operate fully within the parameters set by the pilot. There is almost no intelligence, and very little adaptivity there. The pilot needs to reprogram the autopilot manually when the flight plan changes, for example. Flight conditions can change in many ways that require the autopilot to be reprogrammed, reconfigured, or even switched off. Airplanes have actually crashed more than once because the pilot configured the autopilot incorrectly.

I don't know much about trains, except that fully automating without adapting all the rail infrastructure is more difficult than you would imagine, for example because there is basically no standardization in how semaphores are placed, for example.

Re:Toyota Research Institute head says full autonomous drivi... by cmurf on Monday August 28, 2017 @11:56AM (#15117459)
FAA flight plan plus an IFR clearance is basically a script. Before autopilots, the pilot followed that script, without radar, with waypoint and next fix ETA reporting by radio. And it has a fallback in place for lost communications, the flight is expected to fly and land at its destination per it's clearance (or most recently amended version of it). And the fallback also includes the possibility of being unable to land at the destination, and instead having to go to the specified alternate in the flight plan. http://delta.jepptech.com/jifp/help/Images/FAAFlightPlan.gif
Re:Toyota Research Institute head says full autonomous drivi... by diggernet on Monday August 28, 2017 @12:12PM (#15117612)
Thanks for this. I wish there was more awareness of the distinction. Too many comments here are describing automated things as autonomous.
Re:Toyota Research Institute head says full autonomous drivi... by Tobani on Monday August 28, 2017 @11:24AM (#15117151)
Some trains are very automated. And there is autopilot/autolanding for jets, BUT the pilot has to engage them, and they can't be used in all circumstances. That is to say that they are about as automated as the Tesla Autopilot. Once you get on the highway, the car can keep course and maintain the appropriate speed.

This is a long way off from the world of "Enter the destination from my garage, take a nap, and wake up an hour later at my destination," of "Full Autonomy." There is a distinct inflection point of utility where Autonomous vehicles require you to be paying attention to take over in emergency, and the point at which that is no longer required.

Re:Toyota Research Institute head says full autonomous drivi... by blktiger on Monday August 28, 2017 @11:17AM (#15117076)
With regards to airplanes, you have several issues. The main one being that airplanes are not equipped with sensors capable of detecting other aircraft nearby. Without a complete picture of the airspace to a very significant distance a fully autonomous aircraft isn't possible. Today that is managed by the air traffic control system which is entirely run by people communicating with other people. That said, aircraft are capable of fully autonomous landings - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autoland.
Re:Toyota Research Institute head says full autonomous drivi... by JorgeGT on Monday August 28, 2017 @11:31AM (#15117197)
> The main one being that airplanes are not equipped with sensors capable of detecting other aircraft nearby.

Well, there's ACAS/TCAS (airborne collision avoidance system / traffic collision avoidance system) and certainly we are moving towards ASAS (airborne separation assurance system), based mainly in transponder / ADS-B radio signals. But as others have commented, there are other reasons (psychological, economic, etc.).

Re:Toyota Research Institute head says full autonomous drivi... by Piskvorrr on Monday August 28, 2017 @12:01PM (#15117508)
Oh, new trains are full auto, no worries. Retrofitting an entire fleet and tracks, now there's the issue - follow the money, and you'll see why even automatic trains are only programmed to follow the usual route, and for diversions, the driver would need to step in. Plus having a person in the cockpit to push the Big Red Button helps with all sorts of legal issues.
Re:Toyota Research Institute head says full autonomous drivi... by limsup on Monday August 28, 2017 @11:15AM (#15117060)
Consider the proportion of the cost of an Uber ride that goes to the driver compared with the proportion of the cost of an airplane ticket that goes to the pilot. A driverless car has the potential to be much cheaper, but a pilotless plane would not be much different. Many new train systems are automated. The cost of retrofitting older systems is just too great.
Re:Toyota Research Institute head says full autonomous drivi... by trekky1700 on Monday August 28, 2017 @11:22AM (#15117127)
From what a pilot told me, I believe the A320 he flies can take off, fly, and land totally on its own. I'm sure the same is true for other planes.

Also, if I recall correctly, he said in certain conditions it's against regulations for a pilot to be manually controlling the aircraft, such as landings in high winds.

Re:Toyota Research Institute head says full autonomous drivi... by cmurf on Monday August 28, 2017 @12:42PM (#15117941)
Literally none of this is true.

"land totally on its own" suggests autonomy. In reality it's a three part certification: pilot, plane (autopilot), and runway. There is only one zero visibility landing system, and that's the ILS CAT IIIc.[1] If there's no ground capability for the runway (does not exist or is down for maintenance) then the plane can't do a CAT IIIc landing.

In practice there is no such thing as landing without an explicit clearance to land. Clearance is given by ATC to the pilot via AM radio. The autopilot has no language listening or speaking skills at all. Numerous clearance modifications happen during a flight, given verbally.[2]

The plane also doesn't taxi itself into position, and it doesn't retract or subsequently deploy landing gear. Many tasks aren't available to the autopilot, nor are many transitions between tasks.

About the last statement, FAR 91.3(a) The pilot in command of an aircraft is directly responsible for, and is the final authority as to, the operation of that aircraft. You could construe FAR 91.13(a)No person may operate an aircraft in a careless or reckless manner so as to endanger the life or property of another. as requiring the pilot to use automation if the aircraft manufacturer requires it in certain situations. Otherwise, no, and I have only ever heard of autopilots needing to be disabled in high wind situations.

[1] Example instrument approach procedure. Scroll to the bottom and you'll see it explicitly requires ground navaids and a certified crew. http://155.178.201.160/d-tpp/1709/09077I35RC2_3.PDF

[2] Example STAR which most airports don't have, but when they do you'll even see these are really just designed to allow ATC to "plug in" a smaller subset of data like an altitude or speed, without having to recite the entire arrival instructions. Can it be automated? No, because the variables are delivered by voice. The STAR is useless without the variables, and variables are useless without the STAR. http://155.178.201.160/d-tpp/1709/09077POWDR.PDF

Re:Toyota Research Institute head says full autonomous drivi... by Piskvorrr on Monday August 28, 2017 @12:13PM (#15117621)
Fairly sure it still needs the pilot to tell it "now we're taking off", "now we're cruising", "now we're landing" (and under what parameters). Doing that switch automatically seems unsafe.

The other part sounds improbable - quite the opposite, a pilot always needs to be able to take over in case the automatic systems fail.

Re:Toyota Research Institute head says full autonomous drivi... by FieryTransition on Monday August 28, 2017 @11:23AM (#15117143)
We have automated trains in Denmark in Copenhagen which are widely used everyday by the public, so it's not like it doesn't exist. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copenhagen_Metro
Re:Toyota Research Institute head says full autonomous drivi... by TJ-14 on Monday August 28, 2017 @11:29AM (#15117178)
Subway trains in my city (Vancouver) are autonomous
Re:Toyota Research Institute head says full autonomous drivi... by qntmfred on Monday August 28, 2017 @11:08AM (#15116988)
less economic or safety incentive with those modes of transportation. there's much more to be gained by automating cars and trucks.
Re:Toyota Research Institute head says full autonomous drivi... by maratd on Monday August 28, 2017 @11:11AM (#15117028)
> One thing I would love someone to explain is how can people assume cars are going to be automated soon when both planes and trains haven't been automated for various reasons.

Planes are mostly automated, except for liftoff and landing. They can probably automate those too ... but there's no point. You'll still need a pilot. Would you get into a plane flown entirely by computer with no pilot available to take over?

Trains are entirely automated. At least, the ones where there isn't a union enforcing some form of employment. I've been on a number of trains in airports that don't have any kind of operator.

Re:Toyota Research Institute head says full autonomous drivi... by ZeroGravitas on Monday August 28, 2017 @11:33AM (#15117210)
One argument is just scale.

So, if it costs a billion dollars to make a good AI driver, then if you put it in a million cars then it's costs 1000 dollars each and you could eliminate lots of jobs where the main cost is the human (delivery, taxi) so providing a ready sales avenue for your self-driving car (or tech). If you put it in trains then you can maybe drive thousands of trains, and the human is a relatively low cost element of a train service so there's less room to expand.

I don't know if this is true, or even if the logic I outlined above pencils out with real data but it probably contributes in some way.

Re:Toyota Research Institute head says full autonomous drivi... by dboreham on Monday August 28, 2017 @09:51PM (#15121571)
Also: where are the self-driving attorneys? A very constrained problem domain where all the answers can be looked up in books, prior cases etc. Vastly expensive human drivers needs at present. No chance of killing anyone. We should have armies of automated lawyers already, no?
Re:Toyota Research Institute head says full autonomous drivi... by keithly on Monday August 28, 2017 @11:45AM (#15117340)
Also, planes and trains have unionized employees who don't want give up their jobs to automation.
Re:Toyota Research Institute head says full autonomous drivi... by jbob2000 on Monday August 28, 2017 @11:13AM (#15117040)
There's no good reason to automate trains right now, aside for the sake of automating them. It would take a lot of cash to accomplish and it would put us exactly where we are now.
Re:Toyota Research Institute head says full autonomous drivi... by majewsky on Monday August 28, 2017 @01:38PM (#15118473)
Here's a reason: If trains were automated, low-demand lines with long headway (i.e. 2 hours and more) could be serviced more frequently (with proportionally shorter trains) with about the same amount of fuel usage. A shorter headway will make the line more attractive and increase passenger numbers.
Re:Toyota Research Institute head says full autonomous drivi... by jbob2000 on Monday August 28, 2017 @02:06PM (#15118725)
Right, but it could cost 100's of millions of dollars to support that. You might need to buy new train engines. You might need to add more signalling, or upgrade existing signalling. You might need to build bridges over/tunnel under the tracks to avoid crossings with roads. Your staff need to be retrained or you need to bring in new people to support the new system.

All of that work to support a small rail line? It might never pay off.

Re:Toyota Research Institute head says full autonomous drivi... by majewsky on Monday August 28, 2017 @05:28PM (#15120230)
1. There are plenty existing train systems where large trains are formed by coupling together multiple small trains that all have their own engines. That way, train lengths can be varied to optimize for demand. This wouldn't be happening if it were prohibitively expensive.

2. Why would you need to avoid crossings with roads just because it's autonomous? Trains use signals that only turn green when the section ahead is clear of other trains or vehicles. It's not like train conductors check road crossings by sight to decide whether to drive or brake.

Re:Toyota Research Institute head says full autonomous drivi... by Piskvorrr on Monday August 28, 2017 @12:17PM (#15117669)
Fairly good reasons for passenger transport, actually. Transport authorities are reporting safer and smoother (which directly translates to "cheaper", both in power savings from optimal profile and in fewer scheduling delays) operation. For heavy cargo without a highly regular, high turnaround schedule, not so much: too many potential operating profiles.
Re:Toyota Research Institute head says full autonomous drivi... by mixedbit on Monday August 28, 2017 @11:26AM (#15117163)
Can it be that railways are often monopolized, and getting access to the infrastructure is difficult for new companies, which hampers innovation?
Re:Toyota Research Institute head says full autonomous drivi... by jordache on Monday August 28, 2017 @11:07AM (#15116976)
vehicular traffic is a cluster.. esp with the variables involving non autonomous cars, non-vehicular traffic... random objects that end up in the road compounding the complexities of all other variables.
Re:Toyota Research Institute head says full autonomous drivi... by AndrewKemendo on Monday August 28, 2017 @01:51PM (#15118608)
Planes can take off, cruise and land themselves in any survivable weather condition with existing automated controls. However, people would be terrified of flying without a pilot and there are so many legal hurdles that it's not cost effective to do so.
Re:Toyota Research Institute head says full autonomous drivi... by colordrops on Monday August 28, 2017 @11:36AM (#15117243)
Modern airliners _are_ mostly autonomous, and can even land themselves if necessary. Pilots are there as a safety margin.

I've been on an automated city train as well, I believe in China.

Re:Toyota Research Institute head says full autonomous drivi... by cmurf on Monday August 28, 2017 @01:03PM (#15118149)
Modern airlines are not mostly autonomous. I'll define it this way: remove the pilots from a flight at various stages along its route and see what happens. Multiple outcomes are possible but one is certain, it's not landing at the intended destination. If it were mostly autonomous, it'd land at destination at least some of the time. The chances of this happening today are 0.
Re:Toyota Research Institute head says full autonomous drivi... by colordrops on Monday August 28, 2017 @06:41PM (#15120738)
That's because human checkpoints are intentionally wired into the workflow of a modern airliner. If those checkpoints were automated, the plane could indeed fly and land on its own. And I suspect the safety margins are not far from what is needed to automate the rest of the flight.

The space shuttle's only system that absolutely required human intervention was the landing gears, and that was to ensure that humans were always necessarily in the loop. That doesn't mean that the shuttle wasn't _MOSTLY_ automated.

Re:Toyota Research Institute head says full autonomous drivi... by cmurf on Monday August 28, 2017 @07:37PM (#15121046)
automated != autonomous, the assertion I replied to was that "airliners _are_ mostly autonomous" which is not true.

>If those checkpoints were automated

If there were unicorns...

>the plane could indeed fly and land on its own.

No, and its annoying that you're asserting things you clearly don't understand.

As I mention elsewhere, the only technology we currently have for precision instrument landings in zero weather visibility (the only 100% autoland) is the ILS CAT IIIc approach. The overwhelming majority of airports in the country do not have that infrastructure, nor do most airplanes.

I'm a pilot, you clearly aren't. There are numerous other factors here, but just the fact you can't land wherever you want, at most airports with most aircraft, is enough to prove your assertion false.

Re:Toyota Research Institute head says full autonomous drivi... by dreamcompiler on Monday August 28, 2017 @11:36AM (#15117240)
Planes have been automated to some degree for 100 years. Fully automating a plane at the equivalent of Level 5 is almost a trivial problem compared to doing so with cars. The reason planes aren't automated is mostly social, not technical. Whereas with cars it's decidedly both.
Re:Toyota Research Institute head says full autonomous drivi... by cmurf on Monday August 28, 2017 @03:52PM (#15119524)
Planes aren't automated mostly for technical and infrastructural reasons, the exact opposite of what you stated. The social worry of pilotless airplanes inhibits the massive investment that would be required to solve the technical and infrastructure limitations of the existing system.
Re:Toyota Research Institute head says full autonomous drivi... by dreamcompiler on Monday August 28, 2017 @10:35PM (#15121710)
There are very few technical and infrastructure issues remaining. No such investment is necessary.

https://jonathannen.com/captain-ai.html

Re:Toyota Research Institute head says full autonomous drivi... by cmurf on Tuesday August 29, 2017 @10:51AM (#15124667)
Really? No investment at all? At least it's a falsifiable statement.

Denver International Airport has 10 runways. Only three have ILS CAT IIIc approaches, and that is the only instrument approach procedure that permits full autoland in zero visibility. So you're saying it's completely OK to have 1/3 utilization of the airport's runways for automated landings.

Oh and, those three runways? 34L, 34R, 35R. They all point north. So you can't do auto landings to the east, west, or south. Due to wind direction, your planes won't be able to land on quite a few days out of the year, at all. And in fact the wind could shift while a flight is enroute and now where does it go? All of a sudden the required alternate may be insufficient because a simple wind shift, rather than a change in visibility, becomes the new metric for whether a plane can land or not, and whether the alternate is legal.

This is one logical flaw. There are thousands of these. Totally surmountable, with metric tons of money. But you said no investments necessary.

Re:Toyota Research Institute head says full autonomous drivi... by dreamcompiler on Tuesday August 29, 2017 @09:42PM (#15129093)
I said no such investment was needed, in response to your phrase "... massive investment that would be required to solve the technical and infrastructure limitations of the existing system" which I took as implying that there were still huge research problems to be overcome in aircraft automation. Which there are not.

Some investment will certainly be needed. ADS-B is only beginning to be rolled out, and it will be essential for pilotless planes. But the technical issues for automating planes are mostly solved. Aircraft automation is an engineering problem; not a research problem. The investments still needed are engineering investments.

In contrast, getting to Level 5 automation in cars is very much still a research problem, and as such, orders of magnitude greater resources of money and time will be required to solve it.

Re:Toyota Research Institute head says full autonomous drivi... by cmurf on Wednesday August 30, 2017 @03:19AM (#15130252)
This is what's so annoying about talking to people who very obviously do not have a sufficient common frame of reference and then go on pontificating about how easy to solve and narrow in scope all remaining problems are. It's condescending, and it's stupid.

It sounds like you think most commercial aviation flights in the U.S. autoland. Almost none of them do. Most flights are landed by pilots. Some portion of the approach is done by autopilot but the landing is done by a pilot. Many airports in the country have mandatory noise abatement. Are you aware that ILS approaches are incompatible with noise abatement? These approaches and landings are hand flown in visual conditions. So your plane can't just use instrument landings designed for bad weather flying. You have to R&D a whole new approach to landing method that's noise abatement compatible, to be able to have pilotless planes doing autolandings. Unsolved problem. Seems significant research related to me, not merely an engineering problem.

Why will it take orders of magnitude greater resources and time to solve the auto driving problem, and yet all such research problems for auto flying are solved? What data do you have that causes you to conclude that one is solved and the other is far from solved? What's the difference in cognition and judgement requirements between the two? What's the relevance of experience? Why do you suppose there are so much more substantial knowledge and experience requirements in pilot certification than driver licensing? Why does it take so long to learn how to become an airline transport pilot? Why have gradations of certification? If it's so much simpler of a system to automate as you state, then it should be a simpler system for a human to learn and just plug into, than learning to drive. But it's the exact opposite, it's much more complex than driving, despite automation.

And yet you're saying no, it's simpler and solved, to just replace all of that cognition and judgement with computers and automation. No more research required, just go built it, according to you. Strikes me as a lot of hubris.

Additionally, air traffic controllers are part of this cognitive and judging process of making planes move around. They train for years as well. But despite every flight requiring two human brains in flight, and part of a human brain involved on the ground, you're claiming that driving cars is more cognitively complicated to automate. Why? What's the basis? A single person does this in a car, and they almost always can multitask totally unrelated things like listening to music, or conversing with passengers.

CAT III landings do not incluce runway egress. Unsolved problem to do without a pilot. Sounds like massive R&D is needed, not just engineering or it'd already be automated.

Autopilots don't do turbulence or icing conditions well. They're disabled in severe cases, and such conditions aren't always predictable or even known until the moment they're encountered. Sounds like an R&D problem, not just an engineering problem. Landing on ice, snow, and heavy rain? Pilots do that by hand, not autopilots. AGain, more R&D needed, not just engineering. For reasons unknown you want us to believe that for planes these are solved problems, or easily solved problems, while identical situations for autonomous cars are still difficult unsolved problems. Why? Sounds like you don't know what you're talking about.

The term autopilot is idiotic. The most sophisticated autopilot follows a defined path, the path is defined by a pilot. It effectively maintains altitude, heading, and speed. That's it. There is no code that enables the autopilot to think like a pilot and redefine the path, which happens in all flights. Clearance changes are common place for many reasons. So you need to design a pilotless version of the current ATC to pilot to autopilot carrier pigeon system. Is it an engineering problem? Or a research problem? Seems like both to me because there's no plan for it right now, no design.

Why is ADS-B essential? It's merely scaled out secondary radar. It solves a very vertical problem. It doesn't have sufficient precision to help with landing. It says nothing about how to utilize this information. Humans do that. Seems to me it's a research problem to create an AI that replaces the evaluation and judgement of a pilot, not just engineering.

sigh

Gusty takeoffs and landings? Autopilots don't do that right now. Sounds like a research problem, not an engineering one.

Emergency procedures? This is 100% the domain of human pilots right now. Code that for the pilotless aircraft. Seems R&D related, not merely an engineering task.

The autopilot needs to meet the functional equivalent of competency for the applicable parts of pilot certification in FAR 61. It needs to be able to conform with all or at least some substantial subset of aviation regulations FAR 91, 135, and 121 as right now a huge amount of this conformance is done by pilots. Otherwise, you're redesigning the entire aviation system from the ground up. Either way this sounds to me like a massive research problem, not just an engineering problem.

This list goes on and I pretty much think you're an idiot, not because you're ignorant, but because you're ignorant, deny it, and then handwave bullshit that all the seriousl research problems are solved and all that remains is building things. It's just - it's really stupid and condescending.

Re:Toyota Research Institute head says full autonomous drivi... by cryptoz on Monday August 28, 2017 @11:11AM (#15117024)
30,000 people in the USA alone are killed each year because of human driving error. Humans are not getting any better at driving. Car safety mechanisms have reduced road death rates significantly in the last 50 years, but still - 30,000 deaths/year in the USA alone due to human driver error.

Cars will be automated because cars have to be automated.

Re:Toyota Research Institute head says full autonomous drivi... by throw2016 on Monday August 28, 2017 @12:00PM (#15117501)
Self driving advocates having trivialized human drivers have now realized the technology is not quite there and have changed tack to demonizing human drivers and scare stories and FUD.

These are self interested business people. There are real issues around self driving cars like safety, autonomy, rent seeking, corporate control, individual freedom and surveillance that self interested tunnel vision advocates simply cannot comprehend.

Re:Toyota Research Institute head says full autonomous drivi... by cmurf on Monday August 28, 2017 @03:53PM (#15119534)
About the same number of people die of influenza each year. We've been dying in these numbers for a long time, and it really doesn't matter at a macro scale. It's fine to try and do better, there are some positives for trying, but this is more of a want, not a need.
Re:Toyota Research Institute head says full autonomous drivi... by averagewall on Monday August 28, 2017 @09:27PM (#15121500)
Those are mostly the elderly and babies who have a high risk of dieing anyway. Elderly people especially are certain to die of something soon. If it's not the flu, it'll be a cold or an infection or whatever.
Re:Toyota Research Institute head says full autonomous drivi... by chrismealy on Monday August 28, 2017 @11:18AM (#15117084)
Other countries have much lower car death rates. It's a social problem that can be solved without waiting technological miracles.
Re:Toyota Research Institute head says full autonomous drivi... by Bahamut on Monday August 28, 2017 @11:37AM (#15117245)
The US death rate is lower than most countries: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_traffic...
Re:Toyota Research Institute head says full autonomous drivi... by stevenwoo on Monday August 28, 2017 @04:35PM (#15119838)
The general trend from that data appears that the higher the standard of living, the higher the safety is per driving mile and the US is where one would expect in such a list, better than third world countries, worse than Europe.
Re:Toyota Research Institute head says full autonomous drivi... by chrismealy on Tuesday August 29, 2017 @12:45AM (#15122129)
Canada has 40% fewer road deaths by population. I don't think they're that much richer or smarter than Americans. Complacency is killing people.
Re:Toyota Research Institute head says full autonomous drivi... by stevenwoo on Tuesday August 29, 2017 @01:19AM (#15122256)
Good point. Probably no single simple correlation will do - higher fuel prices points to the one thing that Western Europe and Canada share off the top of my head compared to the USA. (That and nationalized healthcare. :) )
Re:Toyota Research Institute head says full autonomous drivi... by chrismealy on Tuesday August 29, 2017 @01:41AM (#15122329)
If raising gas taxes would save 12,000 lives per year then America should definitely do it. It's a social problem that doesn't require technological solutions.
Re:Toyota Research Institute head says full autonomous drivi... by gjjrfcbugxbhf on Monday August 28, 2017 @11:18AM (#15117085)
Just because we want or even need something doesn't mean we get it.