News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Statistics Professor Just Banned by Google: Here Is His S... by xiaoma on Monday August 21, 2017 @02:40PM (#15066649)
No idea what all was on his blog and other google accounts, but according to the article they were used for his work at the university. Also some credible sites like the NYT linking into the disabled blog: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/19/business/the-stock-market...

Google may have had some good reasons or it may have just been an example of ML discriminating against a name like Salil. Either way, it's very disturbing how Google shuts down accounts without warning or a reasonable resolution process. They did this to a Canadian psychology professor earlier this month (and then silently restored access after Joe Rogan picked up the story).

I'm extremely loathe to wean myself off of Google's products, especially Gmail. But I can no longer really see it as a safe place to have verifications of all my other accounts sent with all the risks of automated flagging, technical error (which cost me my pre acquisition YouTube account when they forced everyone onto Plus), and their increasingly aggressive security / account recovery mechanisms that ask for information such as the exact month a decade old account was created.

Re:Statistics Professor Just Banned by Google: Here Is His S... by theWatcher37 on Monday August 21, 2017 @03:00PM (#15066810)
This type of behavior + AMP has pushed me off google completely.

I'm determined to cut them out of my technical life entirely, I've even switched myself and everyone I know/support off their DNS.

I can't support their shady practices anymore.

Re:Statistics Professor Just Banned by Google: Here Is His S... by balladeer on Monday August 21, 2017 @07:54PM (#15068739)
This is why I have been religiously adding my first-name@outlook.com and mail@my-personal-domain as recovery emails or primary email wherever possible on the Internet. Effort is to try and keep email on my own domain as primary and hopefully move off Google ecosystem completely.

I recently moved to iPhone. Now I am not an iFan or so (and I am an Android developer at my day job) but what I like about it that there are couple of service centres in my city and I can actually go and talk to a person directly employed by Apple. Their reps are a phone call away and in fact I can just get a call from them in a few click, or send an email and a human being will respond to me.

I don't like robo bans. I think nobody does. I had really bad experience when Uber banned my account based on some false alarm and it took almost a week to get it revived. Just imagine a robo ban where there's possibly no remedy or in most cases no hopes to contact with an actual human being.

There are also very good paid hosts like https://mailbox.org/en (I moved to them as my third non-throwaway email address after I realised sdf.org can't be anything more than a site for hobby, chitchat, and nostalgia).

I hardly use Hangout now so there's little incentive in sticking with Gmail anyway. Office moved almost entirely to Slack (but it's still GApps mail and GDocs sadly) and friends and family to WhatsApp and Fb Messenger long ago. But this is risky too - Fb owns both. My effort to move them to something like https://signal.org has failed spectacularly (any tips on this? Or alternate services?). Some of them are on Telegram though, and some still on Viber.

Re:Statistics Professor Just Banned by Google: Here Is His S... by avip on Monday August 21, 2017 @04:21PM (#15067521)
> I've even switched myself off their DNS

So this is how tech-nerds revenge their nemesis.

Re:Statistics Professor Just Banned by Google: Here Is His S... by theWatcher37 on Saturday September 02, 2017 @03:13AM (#15154744)
Damn straight. Their DNS is yet another ingress point for their spyware empire.

The only ethical thing to do is technically (and morally) divest from google infrastructure.

Re:Statistics Professor Just Banned by Google: Here Is His S... by chrshawkes on Monday August 21, 2017 @03:40PM (#15067178)
I loathe AMP. Biggest piece of crap coming out of Google in a long time.
Re:Statistics Professor Just Banned by Google: Here Is His S... by gaius on Monday August 21, 2017 @04:33PM (#15067625)
Well, it wasn't designed with your interests in mind. You are the product, remember.
Re:Statistics Professor Just Banned by Google: Here Is His S... by mcgarnagle on Monday August 21, 2017 @05:44PM (#15068093)
Well, which is why he loathes it
Re:Statistics Professor Just Banned by Google: Here Is His S... by ancarda on Monday August 21, 2017 @04:33PM (#15067619)
Any suggestions for alternatives to 8.8.8.8? Is OpenDNS any good?
Re:Statistics Professor Just Banned by Google: Here Is His S... by bmn__ on Tuesday August 22, 2017 @04:53AM (#15070685)
OpenDNS is neither Open nor DNS.

I invite you to participate in OpenNIC, the democratic DNS root.

<https://opennic.org>

<http://enwp.org/Alternative_DNS_root#OpenNIC>

Re:Statistics Professor Just Banned by Google: Here Is His S... by newscracker on Tuesday August 22, 2017 @02:32AM (#15070208)
I used to use OpenDNS several years ago (before it was bought by Cisco), but also faced some issues not directly related to the DNS service and stability. OpenDNS allowed people to create accounts and specific blacklists/whitelists. That, when combined with the OpenDNS app (same user account) that would run on the users' computers, would tell OpenDNS which sites to block for which source IP address (the user's) even for those with dynamic IP addresses from their ISP. Being on a connection with a dynamic IP address, once in a while I'd get the IP address of someone else who had the OpenDNS filtering setup and hadn't run the OpenDNS app or it somehow failed to report back (or the time between the periodic pings from the app with the IP address update). When I used OpenDNS servers during those times, I would get blocked out of sites and get weird custom messages that those users had setup. The only solution was to create an account myself on OpenDNS, run the OpenDNS app on all my systems, and trigger an IP address update back to OpenDNS from the app if at all something didn't work.

I'm guessing the same filtering support still exists, called Home Internet Security. [1]

One tool I have used in the past to benchmark DNS servers and choose is namebench. [2] It seems like the last releases were in 2010, but it worked for me even a few years ago (haven't checked after that).

[1]: https://www.opendns.com/home-internet-security/

[2]: https://code.google.com/archive/p/namebench/

Re:Statistics Professor Just Banned by Google: Here Is His S... by peterwwillis on Monday August 21, 2017 @04:49PM (#15067756)
4.2.2.[1-6] is easy to remember, but IIRC they don't want people to use them anymore. Here's a list of harder to remember addresses: https://www.lifewire.com/free-and-public-dns-servers-2626062
Re:Statistics Professor Just Banned by Google: Here Is His S... by metalliqaz on Monday August 21, 2017 @03:14PM (#15066940)
Sorry for being that guy, but what is AMP in this context?
Re:Statistics Professor Just Banned by Google: Here Is His S... by joatmon-snoo on Monday August 21, 2017 @03:22PM (#15066998)
AMP, as pushed by Google, is essentially Google re-hosting a pared-down, mobile-friendly version of your site.

Alex Kras has two blog posts that got a lot of traction early on that highlighted some issues with this trend [1] [2].

[1] https://www.alexkras.com/google-may-be-stealing-your-mobile-...

[2] https://www.alexkras.com/please-make-google-amp-optional/

Re:Statistics Professor Just Banned by Google: Here Is His S... by metalliqaz on Monday August 21, 2017 @03:31PM (#15067107)
Thanks much, I was wondering how AMP made him suspicious of google.
Re:Statistics Professor Just Banned by Google: Here Is His S... by nailer on Monday August 21, 2017 @07:35PM (#15068665)
Essentially Google only allow Google-hosted AMP content in their search carousel. You could create an AMP (or otherwise fast) page on your own CDN and Google won't show it unless it's on their domain.
Re:Statistics Professor Just Banned by Google: Here Is His S... by FuriouslyAdrift on Monday August 21, 2017 @03:22PM (#15066994)
Accelerated Mobile Pages It's a weird accelerator thing for mobile. I've never quite figured out its use case except to hoover up more metrics for Google.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accelerated_Mobile_Pages

Re:Statistics Professor Just Banned by Google: Here Is His S... by amrrs on Monday August 21, 2017 @04:08PM (#15067422)
The use case is simple: Transcend through adblockers and show ads in mobiles. Mobile users primarily use adblockers because websites suck their data and also speed. AMP ensures faster content delivery and lite data and also comes with ads.
Re:Statistics Professor Just Banned by Google: Here Is His S... by nailer on Monday August 21, 2017 @07:36PM (#15068668)
Doesn't explain why they don't allow you to host AMP pages on your own domain and still be in the search carousel.
Re:Statistics Professor Just Banned by Google: Here Is His S... by jszymborski on Monday August 21, 2017 @03:19PM (#15066977)
https://www.ampproject.org/

(first hit on DDG.gg for '"amp" google')

Re:Statistics Professor Just Banned by Google: Here Is His S... by robteix on Monday August 21, 2017 @03:21PM (#15066992)
I'm not the parent but I'm sure they mean Accelerated Mobile Pages[0]

[0] https://www.ampproject.org/

Re:Statistics Professor Just Banned by Google: Here Is His S... by jwong_ on Monday August 21, 2017 @03:18PM (#15066973)
> The Accelerated Mobile Pages Project (AMP) is an online publishing format, created by Google
Re:Statistics Professor Just Banned by Google: Here Is His S... by bhnmmhmd on Monday August 21, 2017 @05:34PM (#15068041)
But remember that in countries where certain sites are censored, AMP provides an easy way to access the restricted blogs/websites. Maybe the most important of these websites is reddit.
Re:Statistics Professor Just Banned by Google: Here Is His S... by fweespeech on Monday August 21, 2017 @06:02PM (#15068182)
I'll admit I still use them but only on my own domain as a non-free account. Its just not safe w/o any kind of support channel.
Re:Statistics Professor Just Banned by Google: Here Is His S... by throwaway613834 on Monday August 21, 2017 @04:49PM (#15067754)
What is the benefit of not using their DNS?
Re:Statistics Professor Just Banned by Google: Here Is His S... by alexknvl on Monday August 21, 2017 @08:11PM (#15068805)
Presumably to not supply them your domain usage stats.
Re:Statistics Professor Just Banned by Google: Here Is His S... by biafra on Tuesday August 22, 2017 @04:52AM (#15070682)
Not giving them this information.

Every question to Google is an answer for Google.

Re:Statistics Professor Just Banned by Google: Here Is His S... by metalliqaz on Monday August 21, 2017 @03:11PM (#15066901)
This kind of thing is exactly why I don't have a G+ account. When it launched people were getting their accounts banned left and right because of the real name policy, and when that happended their gmail was toast. I can't afford to lose my gmail. I never allowed it to create a G+ account for me. Same with YouTube when they combined them.

Just imagine losing control not only your email, but also every account that is tied to that email. Nightmare.

Re:Statistics Professor Just Banned by Google: Here Is His S... by pishpash on Monday August 21, 2017 @03:16PM (#15066955)
We're already beginning to see this effect in "customer service" fields: talking with intellectually deficient and apathetic bots to solve any problem is the worst experience ever, and Google is leading the charge.
Re:Statistics Professor Just Banned by Google: Here Is His S... by Nomentatus on Monday August 21, 2017 @04:06PM (#15067403)
Google's AI jumbling up my search queries and insisting on answering entirely different questions from the one I asked has finally pushed me to duckduckgo (which is greatly improved and not yet as botty.) So I bet you're right thinking it's a demented bot. Such bots (and especially, "forests" of bots) tend to punish anything that's sufficiently eccentric.

This could be countered by a separate forest of bots that looks for and identifies "mere eccentricity" (such as very heavy internet search use that will inevitably trigger many false bot hits re terrorism merely due to the law of averages.) But we're not that sophisticated yet, it would seem, judging by results. [Run to the patent office! First to file means anyone can steal this idea!]

Luckily, in this case, you won't be hit with a drone strike because you have an odd web site; but in other cases sudden death from the skies has been the result of bot analysis of mass intercepted communications targeting entirely innocent people.

Just to be clear, I actually rather like the idea of drone strikes on bad guys, just not idiotic-algorithm-triggered drone strikes, thanks so much.

Re:Statistics Professor Just Banned by Google: Here Is His S... by WalterSear on Monday August 21, 2017 @04:38PM (#15067674)
Fwiw. Duckduckgo is using Bing under the hood I believe.
Re:Statistics Professor Just Banned by Google: Here Is His S... by vanderZwan on Monday August 21, 2017 @05:02PM (#15067836)
That's a bit of an oversimplification. From the FAQ page:

> When people search, we believe they're really looking for answers, as opposed to just links. For many categories of searches (restaurants, game of thrones, code documentation, etc.), there is usually a specialized search engine (Yelp), content site or other source that does a better job at actually answering the searches than a general search engine does with just links. Our long-term goal is to get you Instant Answers from these best sources.

> To do that, we've developed an open source Instant Answer platform called DuckDuckHack, which allows anyone to propose and develop Instant Answers for DuckDuckGo. On the backend, we have a classification and relevancy engine that selects the best sources for a particular search and displays answers to you in real time, be it for recipes, products, images, and hundreds of other categories.

> In fact, DuckDuckGo gets its results from over four hundred sources. These include hundreds of vertical sources delivering niche Instant Answers, DuckDuckBot (our crawler) and crowd-sourced sites (like Wikipedia, stored in our answer indexes). We also of course have more traditional links in the search results, which we source from Bing, Yahoo, and Yandex.

https://duck.co/help/results/sources

EDIT: changed link to more elaborate FAQ one.

Re:Statistics Professor Just Banned by Google: Here Is His S... by mikedilger on Monday August 21, 2017 @05:18PM (#15067934)
This reminds me: google owns duck.com

Don't mistype duck.co

Re:Statistics Professor Just Banned by Google: Here Is His S... by Clubber on Monday August 21, 2017 @03:21PM (#15066989)
I strongly recommend everyone to look into hosting your own mail server. DigitalOcean will rent you a Linux VM for $5 a month or something crazy like that. You can figure out how to install postfix/dovecot/squirrelmail it in a few hours.

If nothing else, it keeps critical functionality decentralized, and you learn something and $5 a month for career insurance is pretty damn cheap.

Re:Statistics Professor Just Banned by Google: Here Is His S... by philipodonnell on Monday August 21, 2017 @03:33PM (#15067117)
Its not the mail server, its deliverability. If you can set up a $5/month server to send email so can every spammer ever and the big mail providers know this.

Mail sent like this won't be delivered anywhere with even the most basic spam filtering which includes blacklists of known spam-source IP address blocks like Digital Ocean/AWS/Heroku.

Re:Statistics Professor Just Banned by Google: Here Is His S... by jerf on Monday August 21, 2017 @04:09PM (#15067434)
I have a personal mail server that collects my mail, but use my "default" Comcast MX to send. I'm sure metric craptons of email flow through that, but a lot of ham does too, so I've never been blacklisted.

I'd suggest that rather than the goal being to instantly leave this service or that the instant that they offend you, that you envision your policy as one of being ready to leave if you ever need to. The biggest key to that is having your own domain name and using that as your email address. Right now having your own domain is the biggest superpower you can have on the net, even with the events of last week. Honestly, pretty much everyone reading this from the US ought to own a domain name and be using it at least for their email address, even if it's purely delegated to gmail for the time being. They're too cheap to pass up the flexibility they offer.

Re:Statistics Professor Just Banned by Google: Here Is His S... by throwaway613834 on Monday August 21, 2017 @04:54PM (#15067787)
What prevents your domain name registrar from shutting you down arbitrarily?

Also, I'm not sure what you're referring to as Comcast MX, but if you mean a Comcast provided server, that's a huge privacy hole. If you mean your own server on a Comcast line, then your IP is leaked to everyone you email, which is also a privacy hole since it ties your IP directly to your identity.

Re:Statistics Professor Just Banned by Google: Here Is His S... by jerf on Monday August 21, 2017 @06:57PM (#15068489)
"What prevents your domain name registrar from shutting you down arbitrarily?"

I did say "even with the events of last week". It's the biggest stick you can get right now. It doesn't make you invincible.

"If you mean your own server on a Comcast line, then your IP is leaked to everyone you email, which is also a privacy hole since it ties your IP directly to your identity."

I don't email out much. Everyone I email is pretty much already going to know I'm me. Comcast already has arbitrarily large amounts of surveillance they can perform on me, sitting here worrying about my "outbound email hole" is a waste of time.

Re:Statistics Professor Just Banned by Google: Here Is His S... by hacktothefuture on Monday August 21, 2017 @04:52PM (#15067776)
Great advice! Exactly what I'm doing as we speak after reading this. I'm such a cheerleader for Google but after hearing about this a few times its starting to scare the crap out of me. F that. Not a good idea to let a multi-national entity control my access to EVERYTHING with zero customer service options.
Re:Statistics Professor Just Banned by Google: Here Is His S... by deivid on Monday August 21, 2017 @04:08PM (#15067427)
I did this. If you comply with some basic stuff like DKIM and ptr you get 100% accepted on everything but hotmail. I don't know how to get hotmail/outlook to stop greylisting me consistently.
Re:Statistics Professor Just Banned by Google: Here Is His S... by Clubber on Monday August 21, 2017 @03:41PM (#15067188)
Wow, that seems ... anticompetitive.
Re:Statistics Professor Just Banned by Google: Here Is His S... by b4ux1t3 on Monday August 21, 2017 @03:48PM (#15067252)
Er, no, it seems anti-spam. The fact of the matter is, plenty of people use dime-a-dozen hosting to make spam bots. These days, you're better off using a reputable mail service as opposed to rolling your own, unless you have a fairly large company.
Re:Statistics Professor Just Banned by Google: Here Is His S... by Clubber on Monday August 21, 2017 @04:05PM (#15067393)
It is anti-spam, but it is also anticompetitive to block anyone that isn't gmail or an already known big player in that space. Apparently lots of people are having trouble setting up a mail server on their own without getting blocked by Google. Can you see that as a problem for the intent at large? I wonder what kinda marketshare gmail has.

It's probably a problem they aren't in a hurry to solve either.

Re:Statistics Professor Just Banned by Google: Here Is His S... by BinaryIdiot on Monday August 21, 2017 @04:23PM (#15067538)
I mean it's not that you're automatically blocked it's just that your server's score for sending email is nonexistent which means a high likelihood of being a spam server.

You have to spend a long time to build up a reputation to get places to mark your email as not spam. This is why many providers that allow you to do bulk email through them have multiple IPs and they only let the most behaved on their better reputation IPs.

Re:Statistics Professor Just Banned by Google: Here Is His S... by b4ux1t3 on Monday August 21, 2017 @06:26PM (#15068291)
It's probably a problem they aren't in a hurry to solve because there's no reason to solve it. Any decently-funded small business can afford to use proper web hosting (Er, I love Digital Ocean. But they aren't really "web hosting").

Google (and basically every other reputable email host _and_ every "independent" email host) are blocking mail from services that host cheap compute power. A lot of Azure and GCP email traffic would likely be blocked, not just Digital Ocean.

If you want to start an email service, use something that isn't a known platform for spammers.

Re:Statistics Professor Just Banned by Google: Here Is His S... by mrighele on Monday August 21, 2017 @05:30PM (#15068016)
If someone doesn't want to handle his own email server, a simpler alternative is to buy email services for a domain you own; it will be easier to change provider if needed since, unlike a @gmail.com address, you won't need to change any address.

Edit: of course you will need to download and keep the emails by yourself if you don't want to lose access to them, but that's much easier than handling a whole server.

Re:Statistics Professor Just Banned by Google: Here Is His S... by brianwawok on Monday August 21, 2017 @03:24PM (#15067026)
Do you find you have problems delivering to other mail servers?

That has always been the trick. Running the mail server is easy. Having your email show up in other servers is "hard". Right now, with so many users using GMAIL, using gmail is a huge boon to not being marked spam (Google is way less likely to market a @gmail.com email as spam compared to say a @aol.com email).

Re:Statistics Professor Just Banned by Google: Here Is His S... by Clubber on Monday August 21, 2017 @03:39PM (#15067177)
I haven't had any issues but I've been hosting my own mail server since 2000 or so. I've been blacklisted by spamhaus? before years ago but I submitted a request to remove and they did. Google has a page to help with this though.

https://support.google.com/mail/answer/81126?hl=en&vid=0-107...

Also, I personally host at home and have Comcast business internet. I have a 5 IP block of which one is a mail server. I have occasional internet outages and more frequent power outages, but it's been fine.

Re:Statistics Professor Just Banned by Google: Here Is His S... by CaptSpify on Monday August 21, 2017 @04:40PM (#15067691)
I'd like to add another voice to this: I host my own email myself out of my house, and I've never really had any problems with it either. AFAIK I've never been marked as spam, even after I've sent a couple of mis-configured emails that should have probably been marked as spam.
Re:Statistics Professor Just Banned by Google: Here Is His S... by brianwawok on Monday August 21, 2017 @04:43PM (#15067710)
Have you ever done mailing list work? Like run a mailing list with a few tens of thousand users?
Re:Statistics Professor Just Banned by Google: Here Is His S... by Clubber on Monday August 21, 2017 @06:05PM (#15068196)
I host some people's notification emails, so it will send a few hundred a month. I highly recommend putting a single email recipient per email.
Re:Statistics Professor Just Banned by Google: Here Is His S... by CaptSpify on Monday August 21, 2017 @05:09PM (#15067874)
Nope. I can't say that I have. That definitely might be something that can get you flagged.
Re:Statistics Professor Just Banned by Google: Here Is His S... by throwaway613834 on Monday August 21, 2017 @05:05PM (#15067854)
Your IP is leaked to everyone you email (and if you receive mail, to everyone who emails you), which is a privacy hole since it ties your IP directly to your identity. I assume you don't mind, or did you not realize this?
Re:Statistics Professor Just Banned by Google: Here Is His S... by Clubber on Monday August 21, 2017 @05:57PM (#15068157)
The whois shows my company name. I mean since I run a company, I don't really want that private. Also, those IPs are accessible through a simple DNS lookup of the sender domain, so I'm not really losing any security.
Re:Statistics Professor Just Banned by Google: Here Is His S... by throwaway613834 on Monday August 21, 2017 @07:08PM (#15068545)
Oh, I thought you were recommending this for consumer usage. Yeah, if you have a company then there's probably nothing to keep private.
Re:Statistics Professor Just Banned by Google: Here Is His S... by Clubber on Monday August 21, 2017 @07:20PM (#15068600)
The hosting provider will probably put whatever you want in the whois.
Re:Statistics Professor Just Banned by Google: Here Is His S... by throwaway613834 on Monday August 21, 2017 @07:27PM (#15068631)
The whois wasn't my concern though (since I already knew it was solvable); my concern was the IP address leakage, which gives away your location among other things...
Re:Statistics Professor Just Banned by Google: Here Is His S... by nasalgoat on Monday August 21, 2017 @06:06PM (#15068206)
I run our own mail server at the office for our domain and I don't have any deliverability issues, but I made sure to have the full suite of DMARC, SPF, etc. all set up and kept current on the RBLs. Also it's very low volume, which I think is the key.
Re:Statistics Professor Just Banned by Google: Here Is His S... by nbanks on Monday August 21, 2017 @05:53PM (#15068135)
I've been using my own kimsufi server for years, and live in Montréal so the latency to their Canadian location is superb. The low end servers are often sold out, but become available every couple months. I went for one with a spinning disk for the extra storage. The server's dedicated so performance is much better than a storage VPS where people share a spinning drive.

However I still end up forwarding everything to to my gmail account and using it as en e-mail client because it makes e-mailing searching and filtering so fast and easy. Outgoing mail sent through my own SMTP server and typically gets through, so I could set up dovecot later.

Re:Statistics Professor Just Banned by Google: Here Is His S... by brightball on Monday August 21, 2017 @03:24PM (#15067022)
Re:Statistics Professor Just Banned by Google: Here Is His S... by weberc2 on Monday August 21, 2017 @05:18PM (#15067936)
How good are open source spam filtering tools? Besides not having to maintain my own infrastructure, spam filtering is probably the biggest value add for Gmail, or so it was when I got my account 10 years ago.
Re:Statistics Professor Just Banned by Google: Here Is His S... by nbanks on Monday August 21, 2017 @06:03PM (#15068184)
They used to be remarkably good. Shortly after PG wrote his A Plan for Spam essay, I set up a customized system that used my own spam e-mails as training data. I can't remember the tool I used, but it involved a script on top of maildir which is sure to be far more kludgy than what you could do now. The technique is powerful enough I suspect it still works remarkably well today because it's tuned to your own corpus of spam messages. Nonetheless, for the last decade I've been too lazy to do this and just forward everything to gmail, though gmail does give me a few false positives every couple years.
Re:Statistics Professor Just Banned by Google: Here Is His S... by zeppelin101 on Monday August 21, 2017 @03:24PM (#15067018)
That's a very cool idea, but the spam filtering of gmail can hardly be matched. On the plus side, now you could send emails with much larger attachments.
Re:Statistics Professor Just Banned by Google: Here Is His S... by mirimir on Monday August 21, 2017 @03:29PM (#15067080)
All the spam filtering in the world won't help you after your account evaporates.
Re:Statistics Professor Just Banned by Google: Here Is His S... by weberc2 on Monday August 21, 2017 @05:22PM (#15067966)
No, but the odds of my email account going away (while catastrophic) seem pretty unlikely, and not having to sift through spam every single day is a pretty nice perk. Basically strong spam filtering support is a requirement for any tool I use, and I'm happy to hop off of Gmail if another tool delivers comparable value.
Re:Statistics Professor Just Banned by Google: Here Is His S... by mirimir on Monday August 21, 2017 @06:41PM (#15068376)
I do get that. And perhaps you're discreet enough online that your Google account will never attract scrutiny. But it's something that every Google user ought to keep in mind, I think. I'm guessing that Salil Mehta never even considered it.
Re:Statistics Professor Just Banned by Google: Here Is His S... by weberc2 on Tuesday August 22, 2017 @06:18AM (#15071031)
Fair point, but I don't understand why people think this is a case of Salil offending Google's censors and not simply algorithms gone awry. I got downvoted for expressing this doubt elsewhere in this thread, but no one could answer. I just can't parse a motive for Google to censor him on (as far as I know, he didn't criticize Google's diversity policies or anything of the sort).
Re:Statistics Professor Just Banned by Google: Here Is His S... by justbaker on Tuesday August 22, 2017 @08:37AM (#15071734)
Yup, love the product and software -- hate the service. I cannot vouch for the lack of evil. :(
Re:Statistics Professor Just Banned by Google: Here Is His S... by billsmithaustin on Monday August 21, 2017 @02:56PM (#15066782)
Rather than ascribing this to Google's maliciousness or overzealous use of power, is it possible that the shutdown was accidental?
Re:Statistics Professor Just Banned by Google: Here Is His S... by breadbox on Monday August 21, 2017 @03:10PM (#15066895)
I think that's the point, actually. (Unless there's some political issue that I'm missing.) Google can make a simple mistake and the customer has to bear the burden of it. When something like this happens, there's no indication that Google will or even can address the mistake in a timely fashion -- or maybe not ever. Google's basic philosophy of no customer service for free products means there isn't much you can do, other than wait and hope, or raise a stink and hope.
Re:Statistics Professor Just Banned by Google: Here Is His S... by jwilk on Monday August 21, 2017 @03:07PM (#15066865)
After review, your account is not eligible to be reinstated due to a violation of our Terms of Service.

Doesn't sound like an accident.

Re:Statistics Professor Just Banned by Google: Here Is His S... by pishpash on Monday August 21, 2017 @03:12PM (#15066923)
"After review, ..." -- signed, an algorithm.

Google is not a human facing company, you're most likely conversing with a bot even when you don't think you are.

Re:Statistics Professor Just Banned by Google: Here Is His S... by CaptSpify on Monday August 21, 2017 @04:42PM (#15067702)
Even if it is an algorithm: So? Just because an algorithm made the bad call doesn't mean it's OK.
Re:Statistics Professor Just Banned by Google: Here Is His S... by baybal2 on Monday August 21, 2017 @03:51PM (#15067283)
>Google is not a human facing company, you're most likely conversing with a bot even when you don't think you are.

In reality, all big dotcoms hire legions of human 'reviewers' in cheap countries distanced from the civilized world

Re:Statistics Professor Just Banned by Google: Here Is His S... by dragonwriter on Monday August 21, 2017 @03:10PM (#15066896)
Since it was supposedly reviewed and denied, it wasn't accidental. There may be mistakes of fact made by Google or different reasons than those the target has complained of, but the opacity of the process makes it impossible to determine either of those.
Re:Statistics Professor Just Banned by Google: Here Is His S... by xiaoma on Monday August 21, 2017 @03:09PM (#15066888)
I didn't ascribe anything to malice, though I do miss the "Don't be evil" Google of the early 2000s. It's more an issue of mass automation and the errors that accompany it. This is a company with 93 billion dollars in cash on hand and billions of dollars of profit per quarter that doesn't even offer email support for forced closures of long standing accounts.
Re:Statistics Professor Just Banned by Google: Here Is His S... by NoPiece on Monday August 21, 2017 @02:58PM (#15066795)
An accidental shutdown can still fall under overzealous use of power.
Re:Statistics Professor Just Banned by Google: Here Is His S... by WithHighProb on Monday August 21, 2017 @03:01PM (#15066828)
"accidental" launched a nuclear bomb...
Re:Statistics Professor Just Banned by Google: Here Is His S... by seabird on Monday August 21, 2017 @03:01PM (#15066829)
You're missing the point entirely; even if it was accidental, would you have access to your accounts? Would your email be a reliable way to reach you or verify your ownership of another account? Would people able to access the content you've posted?

The answer is quite obviously "no," and that doesn't cut it for people need rely on services like these for their everyday workflow. We wouldn't consider "accidental" AWS downtime acceptable, so why will we accept it from Google?

Re:Statistics Professor Just Banned by Google: Here Is His S... by tazard on Monday August 21, 2017 @04:45PM (#15067726)
Wouldn't using ones own domain and gsuite alleviate some of these issues? If Google were to shut down your account, you could update your mx records to a different mail server such as fastmail or self hosted as mentioned elsewhere in this thread, and be back up and running relatively soon (of course you still wouldn't have your connected YouTube/G+ etc accounts).

Although as I write this it occurred to me, you would likely loose all your contacts and calendar unless they were backed up prior...

Re:Statistics Professor Just Banned by Google: Here Is His S... by pishpash on Monday August 21, 2017 @03:11PM (#15066910)
Although not terribly enlightening, we can still ascribe malice to an algorithm as a shorthand for its essential behavior. In the end it's a black box, can you rule out anything?
Re:Statistics Professor Just Banned by Google: Here Is His S... by jolux on Monday August 21, 2017 @03:00PM (#15066809)
Jordan Peterson, the "Canadian psychology professor" you mention, agree or disagree with him, clearly has political motivations and is explicitly politically active. He's an entirely different case from this.
Re:Statistics Professor Just Banned by Google: Here Is His S... by shallot_router on Monday August 21, 2017 @03:05PM (#15066848)
No doubt Peterson makes a lot of political videos, but he never said or did anything remotely deserving of having his channel shut down. I mean, just as an example, you can find a lot of blatant Holocaust denial and Nazi propaganda channels that are active and have been active for years.
Re:Statistics Professor Just Banned by Google: Here Is His S... by jolux on Monday August 21, 2017 @03:11PM (#15066911)
Definitely, and I didn't say he deserved it, I was just saying he seems more political than this guy.
Re:Statistics Professor Just Banned by Google: Here Is His S... by chongli on Monday August 21, 2017 @03:08PM (#15066873)
How is that relevant to the story of whether or not it's appropriate for Google, or indeed any large service provider (Cloudflare), to take their account offline?
Re:Statistics Professor Just Banned by Google: Here Is His S... by jolux on Monday August 21, 2017 @03:10PM (#15066900)
Because one of them fits in a narrative of Google being politically censorious and the other doesn't. I don't know exactly what caused it but Peterson definitely tests boundaries a lot more than this guy. It's no insult, I'm sure he would say the same of himself.
Re:Statistics Professor Just Banned by Google: Here Is His S... by chongli on Monday August 21, 2017 @03:15PM (#15066947)
Even if this was an accident of some algorithm, that no person at Google had any idea this would happen, it is still problematic. Algorithms and data sets can be biased just as much as people are. It's a wake-up call for all of us who entrust too much of our digital lives with Google. It's putting all our eggs in one basket.
Re:Statistics Professor Just Banned by Google: Here Is His S... by jolux on Monday August 21, 2017 @03:18PM (#15066974)
I entirely agree, the only thing I use Google for is search and I stay logged out. Not perfect but their search is still the best for me.
Re:Statistics Professor Just Banned by Google: Here Is His S... by bbdbdbdbsbwhs on Monday August 21, 2017 @03:04PM (#15066847)
Why do you feel the need to put quotes around Peterson's title?
Re:Statistics Professor Just Banned by Google: Here Is His S... by fasquoika on Monday August 21, 2017 @05:45PM (#15068101)
It's a direct quote from the GP, that's an entirely reasonable use of quotation marks
Re:Statistics Professor Just Banned by Google: Here Is His S... by shallot_router on Monday August 21, 2017 @03:05PM (#15066853)
Probably because he disagrees with his views, and surely no true professor would say something he disagrees with.
Re:Statistics Professor Just Banned by Google: Here Is His S... by jolux on Monday August 21, 2017 @03:08PM (#15066877)
I just thought it was interesting you (edit: you're not parent, I meant parent) didn't call him out by name, and I wanted to make the connection explicit.
Re:Statistics Professor Just Banned by Google: Here Is His S... by xiaoma on Monday August 21, 2017 @03:27PM (#15067047)
Despite being successful for an academic, he's not exactly a famous psych prof at the level of say, Steven Pinker. Before politics collided with his work this year he didn't seem to be politically active at all, either.

It might have changed a bit after Joe Rogan's podcast but to be honest, most people outside of Canada probably have no idea who Jordan Peterson is.

Re:Statistics Professor Just Banned by Google: Here Is His S... by jolux on Monday August 21, 2017 @03:46PM (#15067232)
Most people, no, but he's immensely popular with a certain section of the right. Nonetheless I was a bit confused because you seemed to be implying that Peterson is just another apolitical academic who caught the short end of the deep learning stick, when there's a lot more evidence that his ban could have been politically motivated. I don't understand why I'm getting downvoted for that.
Re:Statistics Professor Just Banned by Google: Here Is His S... by xiaoma on Monday August 21, 2017 @04:23PM (#15067534)
I think you're right. It was probably politically motivated, at least indirectly. It was more likely due to coordinated flagging efforts rather than a human at Google deciding to ban the account.

He's getting a lot of support from the right, the center (e.g. Joe Rogan) and from many on the left such as Sam Harris as well. In all cases, it seems to be for free speech issues. He seems to hold a deep opposition to political extremes, though it's hard to tell what he favors other than free speech since his videos meander into mythology and literature so much.

Re:Statistics Professor Just Banned by Google: Here Is His S... by vldx on Tuesday August 22, 2017 @05:01AM (#15070724)
He had identified himself as classical liberal.
Re:Statistics Professor Just Banned by Google: Here Is His S... by shallot_router on Thursday August 24, 2017 @11:31AM (#15090903)
Apologies, I misread that you were just quoting his language.
Re:Statistics Professor Just Banned by Google: Here Is His S... by otalp on Monday August 21, 2017 @03:19PM (#15066978)
Yeah, Peterson is clearly politically active. For those who don't know, he rose from complete obscurity because he opposed an anti-transgender-discrimination bill in Canada. His argument was that it was a serious threat to free speech and would force him to use pronouns he didn't want to use, despite nothing like that being on the bill and despite numerous respectable legal scholars informing him that you could never get in trouble for not using a person's preferred pronoun because of this bill.

But because of his "brave" fight against the bill, he's become a hero to alt-right and other people worried about transgendered people forcing everyone to use pronouns, and this is a lucrative market to attract. So lucrative that he now gets over $40,000 a month through Patreon alone for his classes, where he praises Carl jung, criticises post-modernism, the supposed infiltration of Marxism into culture and ideas like White Privilege and Cultural Appropriation

He's also a regularly featured on r/badphilosophy(https://www.reddit.com/r/badphilosophy/comments/64rg9i/jorda...) while there is a good discussion about him on r/AskPhilosophy(https://www.reddit.com/r/askphilosophy/comments/673zy2/dr_jo...).

Re:Statistics Professor Just Banned by Google: Here Is His S... by jack9 on Monday August 21, 2017 @05:47PM (#15068110)
> despite numerous respectable legal scholars informing him that you could never get in trouble for not using a person's preferred pronoun because of this bill.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KnIAAkSNtqo

As mentioned, his employer's lawyers did think so. The Adversarial Model (legal system) doesn't consider that some parties come to other conclusions. It would be ill-advised to listen to "experts" that are not part of a case, taking the advice of pundits* or other unconnected parties is not compelling evidence of legal finding.

*It's primarily in the US, that the mass media promotes education pundits as corroboration in legal matters.

Re:Statistics Professor Just Banned by Google: Here Is His S... by gragas on Monday August 21, 2017 @03:28PM (#15067070)
>the supposed infiltration of Marxism into culture and ideas like White Privilege and Cultural Appropriation

You can't argue that "white privilege" hasn't infiltrated culture. An alarming amount of people have openly disparaged white people when talking to me, even though I am white myself.

If you're not white, it's almost socially acceptable to say "fuck white people" in cities like SF, NYC, and Chicago. I think it's horrible and I think Peterson is right.

Re:Statistics Professor Just Banned by Google: Here Is His S... by jrs95 on Monday August 21, 2017 @05:53PM (#15068130)
Even in Columbus, OH this is acceptable and common. People would say this relatively frequently at a startup I worked at (where nearly everyone was white, except a couple Asians), in addition to making really lame “white people” jokes. The only person to ever call anyone out for this was our black chef. Probably because his views on race were based in realty instead of some dystopian political fashion. Well, that, and I think anyone else saying anything about it would have been immediately accused of being racist and probably given some sort of formal warning.
Re:Statistics Professor Just Banned by Google: Here Is His S... by gaius on Monday August 21, 2017 @04:37PM (#15067667)
If you're not white, it's almost socially acceptable to say "fuck white people" in cities like SF, NYC, and Chicago

I'm sure Google, CloudFlare, PayPal etc will be shutting down that blatant hate speech too.

Re:Statistics Professor Just Banned by Google: Here Is His S... by gragas on Monday August 21, 2017 @04:51PM (#15067775)
Those companies shouldn't be monitoring ideologies and morality.

If they want to do that, it's their right. But I will purposefully avoid companies that ban any hate speech. I've already cut ties with Google and it feels great.

Re:Statistics Professor Just Banned by Google: Here Is His S... by jolux on Monday August 21, 2017 @03:48PM (#15067249)
Maybe that's the case, but I don't think white privilege and cultural appropriation are inherently Marxist ideas. A lot of Marxists actually reject them as revisionist attempts to bring liberal individualism and individual blame into class politics.
Re:Statistics Professor Just Banned by Google: Here Is His S... by b4ux1t3 on Monday August 21, 2017 @03:46PM (#15067236)
Er, Google has millions of users who have absolutely no problems. One (or even dozens) of bad stories is a tiny percentage of the interactions that take place on their services. It's _far_ more likely to be a mistake than anything untoward, just based on the sheer numbers.
Re:Statistics Professor Just Banned by Google: Here Is His S... by tshibley on Monday August 21, 2017 @04:25PM (#15067560)
How is this any less scary? If a company can just _mistakenly_ cut off my email without warning, and I can't fight through the customer service abyss to get it back, shouldn't I be concerned?
Re:Statistics Professor Just Banned by Google: Here Is His S... by b4ux1t3 on Monday August 21, 2017 @06:31PM (#15068312)
Except for the vast (and I mean _vast_) majority of users, this is never an issue.

You've got a chance of being struck by a meteor whenever you leave your house (and also while being in it). Do you solve that problem by staying inside? No. You go outside and take those odds. The chance that you'll be mistakenly shut down by a mistake is minuscule. Google has proven in the past to be a reliable way to do things like whistleblowing and hosting questionable content. The fact that one or even a dozen users get banned doesn't invalidate Google's history of keeping a _vast_, _overwhelming_ majority of even their free users safe.

Re:Statistics Professor Just Banned by Google: Here Is His S... by cityhall on Monday August 21, 2017 @04:08PM (#15067425)
Your Honor, please consider the thousands of banks I didn't rob.
Re:Statistics Professor Just Banned by Google: Here Is His S... by weberc2 on Monday August 21, 2017 @05:27PM (#15067994)
I think you misunderstood; he's not saying "Google isn't very bad because they made one small mistake", he's saying "Why should I switch from Google simply because there is a minuscule chance that they might make a mistake that affects me".
Re:Statistics Professor Just Banned by Google: Here Is His S... by b4ux1t3 on Monday August 21, 2017 @06:27PM (#15068293)
Thank you. Realistically, what's the likelihood that any single user who uses gmail is going to get shut down? Literally one in millions.
Re:Statistics Professor Just Banned by Google: Here Is His S... by xiaoma on Tuesday August 22, 2017 @08:51AM (#15071830)
>"Literally one in millions."

Unless you work at Google and are privy to internal information, how could you possibly know that? The only reason you're hearing about this case is because the account holder is a university professor who lost a long standing Blogger site—used at his school and linked to by the NYT—and then the story made it to the front page of HN.

It's overwhelmingly likely that the vast, vast majority of people who lose access to their Google accounts never make it onto your radar.

Re:Statistics Professor Just Banned by Google: Here Is His S... by weberc2 on Tuesday August 22, 2017 @12:42PM (#15074105)
> Unless you work at Google and are privy to internal information, how could you possibly know that?

It's an estimate, not an exact figure.

Re:Statistics Professor Just Banned by Google: Here Is His S... by ameister14 on Monday August 21, 2017 @09:50PM (#15069155)
If you hear of someone opening their Life cereal and finding a rat inside it from the factory, you're less likely to buy Life cereal, aren't you?

I certainly am. That rat might be rare, but the system that allowed it to go out isn't one I can trust implicitly.