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Re:Gates Makes Largest Donation Since 2000 with $4.6B Pledge by braydenm on Tuesday August 15, 2017 @11:36AM (#15019192)
Although there are many cynics, it's quite remarkable the impact on the world donations can have. Here's what their foundation has actually been doing with the money: https://www.gatesfoundation.org/Who-We-Are/Resources-and-Med...

I wouldn't be surprised if private donations will eventually be responsible for the eradication of Malaria (1000 deaths daily, much more suffering and cost to society).

If you're in tech you're likely to be in a great position to create value beyond your company. For example, donating equity from your startup or a fraction of your income to the charities that can prove they are having the most cost effective impact on the world: https://founderspledge.com/ https://www.givingwhatwecan.org/pledge/

Re:Gates Makes Largest Donation Since 2000 with $4.6B Pledge by Iknown0thing on Wednesday August 16, 2017 @02:24AM (#15025342)
As much as like the new way of distributing wealth in this manner, some of the foundations Christians fundamentals worry me. For example - https://www.gatesfoundation.org/how-we-work/quick-links/gran...

I tried looking for similar grants to religious services organizations from other religions, but my search came up empty. Very happy to stand corrected on this.

Re:Gates Makes Largest Donation Since 2000 with $4.6B Pledge by mikeyouse on Wednesday August 16, 2017 @04:08AM (#15025762)
This is a silly complaint -- Some of the 'religious' grant money goes to Catholic Relief Services who happen to be one of the largest charity groups operating in Africa. Most of these funds go to Agriculture / emergency relief.

They've also given over $150 million to the Islamic Development Bank to support their vaccine efforts and smaller amounts to dozens of other Muslim-based groups for different initiatives. Likewise for Jewish organizations.

B&MG Foundation are incredibly results driven, all of their grants come with direction for measuring impact and reporting on it. They aren't giving to religious organizations to further religion, but because those organizations are best suited to reach the most people or best suited to responsibly steward enormous amounts of money and resources.

Re:Gates Makes Largest Donation Since 2000 with $4.6B Pledge by Iknown0thing on Wednesday August 16, 2017 @09:48PM (#15033079)
Just because it is called Islamic development bank does not make it a religious organization. Point here is - look at the profiles of some of the organizations. Some of them based on fundamentals I am not sure I feel comfortable about. Also about catholic church in Africa, see Rwanda case https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Rwanda#1994_Genoci...
Re:Gates Makes Largest Donation Since 2000 with $4.6B Pledge by rusk on Wednesday August 16, 2017 @04:07AM (#15025758)
Just cross-referencing jk2323 here who makes an interesting point in this regard [0]

  *He should improve contraception instead*
You're pointing out that a lot of these organisations are based on a Catholic ethos. Given the church's outspoken position on contraception, could the pointed nature of these donations actually be doing some harm?

Given 1000 donors donating a million vs 1 donor with a billion (as somebody else points out below) you could imagine such biases being averaged out ...

[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15024948

Re:Gates Makes Largest Donation Since 2000 with $4.6B Pledge by saint_fiasco on Wednesday August 16, 2017 @10:46AM (#15027850)
When donors with different biases donate to causes with different political implications, they don't always average out. Sometimes they cancel out.

For example political campaign donations are obviously zero-sum, as is lobbying for mutually exclusive well-intentioned causes.

Re:Gates Makes Largest Donation Since 2000 with $4.6B Pledge by rusk on Friday August 18, 2017 @04:34AM (#15044522)
You're presuming a zero-sum balance between all causes political and/or charitable. I'd need to see this thesis more thoroughly fleshed out before I could comment further, but I think on the face of it it's grossly a flawed assumption. Maybe that's not what you mean though.
Re:Gates Makes Largest Donation Since 2000 with $4.6B Pledge by saint_fiasco on Friday August 18, 2017 @12:12PM (#15047448)
Only political causes. And only most of them.

For example suppose that we want to do a cost-benefit analysis to see if convincing people to use contraception is a more effective charitable intervention than whatever Gates is doing.

If the Catholic Church really hates contraception, they would oppose that. They might tell Catholic charities to refuse to work with Gates. They might spend a little money and a lot of cheap labor on convincing people to not use contraception. Generally they will spend resources on doing the opposite thing and Gates would have to spend more resources just to cancel out the Catholic influence.

Since we know beforehand that this is very likely to happen, we should include that in the cost part of our cost-benefit analysis. It's possible Gates did just that and concluded that working with Catholics instead of against them is better.

Re:Gates Makes Largest Donation Since 2000 with $4.6B Pledge by rusk on Friday August 18, 2017 @12:31PM (#15047628)
All sounds very far fetched.
Re:Gates Makes Largest Donation Since 2000 with $4.6B Pledge by deadalus on Wednesday August 16, 2017 @04:12AM (#15025775)
Re:Gates Makes Largest Donation Since 2000 with $4.6B Pledge by nodesocket on Tuesday August 15, 2017 @04:53PM (#15022405)
I think Buffett and Gates proved that despite what the media or anti-capitalists say, the top 1% are able to have the biggest impact. Somebody who donates a million (while a great contribution), will never have the impact that a billionaire can.

Buffett took tremendous flack and there was very public outcry before he started donating. His rationale was that I'll just stack it up, and his late ex-wife Susie would distribute it after he died. However, when Susie passed away unexpectedly, Warren decided to make the move.

Re:Gates Makes Largest Donation Since 2000 with $4.6B Pledge by pharrington on Tuesday August 15, 2017 @09:13PM (#15024209)
No one said that the top 1% don't have the biggest impact.

Currently, our geo-economic systems are structured such that the world's underclasses rely on the emotions of the wealthiest 0.0001% of homo sapiens in America to continually fund triage operations to ameliorate problems that societies have developed institutionalized solutions to.

Re:Gates Makes Largest Donation Since 2000 with $4.6B Pledge by forapurpose on Tuesday August 15, 2017 @08:31PM (#15024018)
> despite what the media or anti-capitalists say, the top 1% are able to have the biggest impact

I think this argument misses, or even reinforces a core criticism about the concentration of wealth. The criticism is that so much and such disproportionate power should not be concentrated in the hands of one individual.

It's fundamentally undemocratic and a danger to society. In a democracy a broad-based group of citizens should be deciding where charitable resources are allocated. It's in aristocracies were a few wealthy control all the assets and make the decisions. Democracies were formed as a rejection of aristocracy, the U.S. in particular.

It's self-reinforcing: If the local 'aristocrat' funds a park, people are grateful because there were no other funds and now we have a park. But there are no other funds because we have a system that creates aristocrats and by concentrating wealth also creates the need for their charity, and instead of the citizens deciding democratically about their parks, the aristocrat decides.

Gates might be an enlightened despot but he's still a despot (in an exaggerated, metaphorical sense). We know what happens to nations and political systems that fall in love with enlightened despots.

> Somebody who donates a million (while a great contribution), will never have the impact that a billionaire can.

1,000 people who donate a million will have exactly the same impact as one who donates a billion and will be far more democratic. Far better: Each person makes an equal sacrifice (via a progressive taxation system) and we vote on how to spend the money.

Re:Gates Makes Largest Donation Since 2000 with $4.6B Pledge by ethbro on Tuesday August 15, 2017 @08:59PM (#15024142)
> 1,000 people who donate a million will have exactly the same impact as one who donates a billion and will be far more democratic.

Except if they don't. Or they do to a variety of causes, each with duplicate administrative overhead.

I'm not a fan of wealth concentration, but it does afford patronage opportunities that simply aren't taken on average in the alternative "more people with less money" world.

Re:Gates Makes Largest Donation Since 2000 with $4.6B Pledge by forapurpose on Wednesday August 16, 2017 @01:28AM (#15025151)
> Except if they don't. ...

Except when the billionaire doesn't. Is there evidence that billionaires donate a greater proportion of their wealth or more effectively than millionaires? Is a market of 1 more efficient than a market of 1,000?

I'd bet that the law of large numbers applies here, and the 1,000 people are overall more consistent than 1 person, and less prone to extreme swings.

It sounds like the trickle-down economics version of philanthropy.

Re:Gates Makes Largest Donation Since 2000 with $4.6B Pledge by lorenzorhoades on Wednesday August 16, 2017 @02:24AM (#15025336)
We have exactly what your explaining in the form of taxes, and the outcomes are terrible. We spend $1B on a healthcare website, that other companies have duplicated for a mere decimal point of the price. Not only that, but it actually turned out worse, cause now it's mandatory to have Healthcare, and for those who can't afford the "affordable health care plan", now have an additional payments in "penalties" for not being able to afford it and they STILL don't have health insurance. This is just one point of a thousand were socialistic practices are completely contrary to the original point. Let the people who create enough value to the world decide where they want to spend their money.
Re:Gates Makes Largest Donation Since 2000 with $4.6B Pledge by rtpg on Wednesday August 16, 2017 @04:48AM (#15025928)
The core problem is that society has to rely on the whims of these people to solve problems.

In an alternative universe we tax people more and ensure malaria eradication _whether or not Bill Gates personally decides to do so_.

There are obviously coordination problems (not saying that "government can solve everything!", there are difficulties there too). But having huge organizations ask for donations from people is a really ineffective way of solving most societal problems.

Re:Gates Makes Largest Donation Since 2000 with $4.6B Pledge by Shivetya on Wednesday August 16, 2017 @05:55AM (#15026226)
Your alternative cannot exist simply because the problem that exist isn't the billionaire but politicians and the governments they run. Gates and his type are able to have the effect they do because being individuals they don't run into problems of the state, there is no threat of imperialism or such. They are also able to do because they live under a government which respects private property rights, whether to self, land, money, or goods.

Government theoretically could solve everything but it requires good government to do so. The first step is what I stated above, respect for private property rights. If people cannot be assured their product of their work is theirs to use you cannot improve the society they live in. They must be able to trust their government.

Re:Gates Makes Largest Donation Since 2000 with $4.6B Pledge by rtx on Wednesday August 16, 2017 @07:46AM (#15026701)
Resource allocation is at the base of all our problems. And capitalism has been the best solution so far.
Re:Gates Makes Largest Donation Since 2000 with $4.6B Pledge by rtpg on Wednesday August 16, 2017 @09:40AM (#15027331)
extremely debatable. In the US, almost no national infrastructure was built through private means (though often privatised later). Private healthcare has been a disaster at maintaining a healthy public. An insistence on having government work happen through public contractors has generated massive conflicts of interests and made us end up with the most expensive infrastructure building process in the world.

Just because the Soviet Union fell over doesn't mean that capitalism has somehow been proven to be "the best solution".

Re:Gates Makes Largest Donation Since 2000 with $4.6B Pledge by gozur88 on Wednesday August 16, 2017 @05:00PM (#15031339)
I don't know a good label for the US healthcare system, but it's so heavily regulated it's impossible to call it "private".

>Just because the Soviet Union fell over doesn't mean that capitalism has somehow been proven to be "the best solution".

Name one country implemented socialism (and by that I mean the government owns the means of production) and didn't end up worse off than when it started. Even the Northern European welfare states are capitalist.

Re:Gates Makes Largest Donation Since 2000 with $4.6B Pledge by pharrington on Wednesday August 16, 2017 @09:12PM (#15032856)
China.
Re:Gates Makes Largest Donation Since 2000 with $4.6B Pledge by gozur88 on Wednesday August 16, 2017 @09:31PM (#15032963)
Not even close. 40 million people starved to death under the communists.
Re:Gates Makes Largest Donation Since 2000 with $4.6B Pledge by pharrington on Wednesday August 16, 2017 @09:42PM (#15033033)
You asked to name a country that ended up worse. Since we are not at the end of history, the only consistent way to interpret "ended up" is "in its state as of the time of this statement."

edit: My above interpretation isn't quite right. It should be "its state as of the latest known point in time the predicate was true."

Re:Gates Makes Largest Donation Since 2000 with $4.6B Pledge by gozur88 on Thursday August 17, 2017 @11:42AM (#15037755)
But China abandoned socialism in the '70s. It's only been since then the country started to turn it around.
Re:Gates Makes Largest Donation Since 2000 with $4.6B Pledge by pharrington on Wednesday August 16, 2017 @08:23PM (#15032603)
It's at least been the best solution to creating value from resources.
Re:Gates Makes Largest Donation Since 2000 with $4.6B Pledge by k_lander on Tuesday August 15, 2017 @08:27PM (#15024005)
For many it helps to know that your dollars are going to have a modest impact on society. Effective Altruism attempts to identify areas that are more likely to do so:

https://www.effectivealtruism.org/articles/introduction-to-e...

Re:Gates Makes Largest Donation Since 2000 with $4.6B Pledge by jk2323 on Wednesday August 16, 2017 @12:33AM (#15024948)
"I wouldn't be surprised if private donations will eventually be responsible for the eradication of Malaria (1000 deaths daily, much more suffering and cost to society)."

He should improve contraception instead. Would be better for the Africans AND Europeans.

Re:Gates Makes Largest Donation Since 2000 with $4.6B Pledge by gjm11 on Wednesday August 16, 2017 @07:55AM (#15026739)
> He should improve contraception instead.

Yeah. Perhaps he should imitate this charitable foundation run by a billionaire tech guy that's doing exactly that: https://www.gatesfoundation.org/What-We-Do/Global-Developmen...

Re:Gates Makes Largest Donation Since 2000 with $4.6B Pledge by charlesdm on Wednesday August 16, 2017 @06:59AM (#15026501)
He really shouldn't do anything. Given it's his wealth, if he wants to focus on Malaria, then he should focus on Malaria.

Be happy he's trying to do something at all. That's more than what most wealthy families do.

Re:Gates Makes Largest Donation Since 2000 with $4.6B Pledge by adim86 on Wednesday August 16, 2017 @06:58AM (#15026493)
What do you mean?
Re:Gates Makes Largest Donation Since 2000 with $4.6B Pledge by prawn on Wednesday August 16, 2017 @07:27AM (#15026622)
They might be suggesting that fewer people competing for resources in Africa could mean fewer people fleeing to Europe and agitating some there who resent the arrivals.
Re:Gates Makes Largest Donation Since 2000 with $4.6B Pledge by rtx on Wednesday August 16, 2017 @07:43AM (#15026686)
And they would be wrong. Focusing on governance will be more beneficial. Africa has enough resources.
Re:Gates Makes Largest Donation Since 2000 with $4.6B Pledge by JustAnotherPat on Tuesday August 15, 2017 @04:42PM (#15022283)
Malaria will be eradicated by CRISPR if anything. It's almost a waste to try and fully eliminate it any other way.
Re:Gates Makes Largest Donation Since 2000 with $4.6B Pledge by hopscotch on Tuesday August 15, 2017 @08:48PM (#15024088)
There is a relatively easy and proven way to eliminate Malaria already:

Malaria was effectively eradicated in all but the poorest areas in the 1950s and 60s through vector management: indoor residual spraying, building better houses, eradicating still water near population centers.

The same can be done in sub-Saharan Africa (the main place it remains). In fact, in the richer areas of these countries, Malaria has a very low prevalence.

It's a disease of poverty. Drugs help, but it's mostly about the vector.

Re:Gates Makes Largest Donation Since 2000 with $4.6B Pledge by itissid on Tuesday August 15, 2017 @06:29PM (#15023321)
Re:Gates Makes Largest Donation Since 2000 with $4.6B Pledge by randyrand on Tuesday August 15, 2017 @02:12PM (#15020797)
Yet many want to 'solve' the problem of the 0.1% being so wealthy and as a result let the government do most of the charity work instead. I think this would be a huge mistake. The mega wealthy donate a larger percent of their income than any other income group (which makes complete sense). We would be losing a ton of donation money.

Yes this is a tangent. But I think its an important point to make. On top of that, even if it were true that most of the 0.1% are very wasteful spenders, there are some who's donations are irreplaceable with government charity. Irradiating the worlds malaria is an example of this. Getting rid of the wealth in the 0.1% would be a huge loss for important donations.

Re:Gates Makes Largest Donation Since 2000 with $4.6B Pledge by JumpCrisscross on Tuesday August 15, 2017 @04:14PM (#15021950)
There's a difference between someone who went from upper middle class to billionaire, like Gates, and someone who inherited most of their wealth, like other people. I don't think lumping them together into a monolithic N% is productive for purposes of discussing policy.
Re:Gates Makes Largest Donation Since 2000 with $4.6B Pledge by olewhalehunter on Tuesday August 15, 2017 @07:02PM (#15023532)
Bill Gates was not upper "middle class", his household was solidly in the 1%, he had computer programming access at his private school (this is 1968), and his mother's friendship with the president of IBM at the time was the reason he got contracted to write DOS.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Maxwell_Gates#Career

Re:Gates Makes Largest Donation Since 2000 with $4.6B Pledge by dragonwriter on Tuesday August 15, 2017 @07:16PM (#15023609)
> Bill Gates was not upper "middle class", his household was in the 1%

Seems to have been a successful petit bourgeoisie, or upper middle class, family. In traditional understanding of class relationships in capitalist society, the middle class isn't mostly middle income but well above; the majority of society is the working class dependent on wage-labor. The upper (capitalist or haut borgeoisie) class is a very thin layer.

The modern American media generally uses a different model which where “class” would more accurately be called “income group”, rather than focussing on relation to the economic system; this gets confusing in conversation when people could be using either model. In that model, Gates family was clearly upper class.

Re:Gates Makes Largest Donation Since 2000 with $4.6B Pledge by olewhalehunter on Tuesday August 15, 2017 @09:04PM (#15024163)
That archaic nobility distinction is useless to the conversation, especially when the most powerful men in the world we're discussing about have the background I'm talking about.

https://www.dailysabah.com/columns/taha-meli-arvas/2017/05/0...

Re:Gates Makes Largest Donation Since 2000 with $4.6B Pledge by dragonwriter on Wednesday August 16, 2017 @09:29AM (#15027245)
> That archaic nobility distinction is useless to the conversation,

It's not a mobility distinction,it's the classical distinction of classes in the capitalist economy (the bourgeoisie is a class in the preceding feudal economy, but there the whole bourgeoisie is the middle class, and the upper class is the nobility, not the haut bourgeoisie.)

Re:Gates Makes Largest Donation Since 2000 with $4.6B Pledge by Jaruzel on Wednesday August 16, 2017 @01:43AM (#15025198)
Sorry to nit-pick, but I didn't know the exact definition of 'petit bourgeoisie' and Google says it's actually lower middle class:

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=petit+bourgeoisie&oq=petit...

Re:Gates Makes Largest Donation Since 2000 with $4.6B Pledge by mborch on Wednesday August 16, 2017 @02:39AM (#15025397)
It most certainly isn't. The Wikipedia article has an accurate description. Google pulls a wrong definition for some reason.
Re:Gates Makes Largest Donation Since 2000 with $4.6B Pledge by rusk on Wednesday August 16, 2017 @04:19AM (#15025802)
The petite bourgeoisie is economically distinct from the proletariat and the lumpenproletariat social-class strata who rely entirely on the sale of their labor-power for survival; and also are distinct from the capitalist class haute bourgeoisie (high bourgeoisie) who own the means of production, and thus can buy the labor-power of the proletariat and lumpenproletariat to work the means of production. Though the petite bourgeoisie can buy the labor of others, they typically work alongside their employees, unlike the haute bourgeoisie.

I think "lower middle-class" is a reasonable apropos of this. That said, I don't think the Gateses would fit this definition either ...

Re:Gates Makes Largest Donation Since 2000 with $4.6B Pledge by dragonwriter on Wednesday August 16, 2017 @09:26AM (#15027224)
The three basic classes are the working class which survived on wage labor, the petit borgeoisie that both rent labor and work as essential means of support, and he capitalists whose support is dominantly derived by renting labor to apply to capital.

The petit bourgeoisie is the middle class of the three. (The lower and upper middle class are both part of it.)

Bill Gates (the Microsoft one) parents appear to have derived wealth largely from his father's successful law practice, dependent on his own labor essentially alongside other rented labor, which would them petit borgeoisie, middle class. They were certainly at the quite high end of prosperity for that class, so upper middle class. (It's not impossible that they at some point crossed into the haut bourgeoisie, but the descriptions I've seen suggest mostly very successful petit borgeoisie.)

Bill Gates himself rapidly moved into the haut bourgeoisie with Microsoft's success.

Re:Gates Makes Largest Donation Since 2000 with $4.6B Pledge by rusk on Wednesday August 16, 2017 @10:06AM (#15027540)
Okay ... this is another one of those slippery terms. As a onetime student of European history I got hung up on the etymology [0]

Historically, the medieval French word bourgeois denoted the inhabitants of the bourgs (walled market-towns), the craftsmen, artisans, merchants, and others, who constituted "the bourgeoisie", they were the socio-economic class between the peasants and the landlords, between the workers and the owners of the means of production

I was incorrectly equating "upper class" with these "landlords", but I guess as of the French revolution, with the Aristocracy overthrown the semantics shifted and "haute bourgeois" became the term for the ruling class.

Contemporarily, the terms "bourgeoisie" and "bourgeois" (noun) identify the ruling class in capitalist societies, as a social stratum

I would contend that the modern phenomenon of "the 1%" more closely resembles the aristocracy of old than Haute Bourgeois but I would be at odds with accepted terminology.

So yeah Bill Gates is from a Bourgeois background (particular grade is unclear) but arguably now occupies a distant Aristocratic stratum beyond Haute Bourgeois.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bourgeoisie#Etymology

Re:Gates Makes Largest Donation Since 2000 with $4.6B Pledge by JoeAltmaier on Wednesday August 16, 2017 @09:34AM (#15027291)
Aren't those categories unactionable? I mean, a lady owns a beauty shop, spends 10 hours a day ordering supplies, doing payroll, managing advertising, hiring and fireing, somehow she's not working class because other people are involved and paid by her? A guy like Bill Gate's Dad is categorized middle class because he works alone, sort of, despite essentially bossing around his clients with autocratic decisions made in the quiet of his office?
Re:Gates Makes Largest Donation Since 2000 with $4.6B Pledge by dragonwriter on Wednesday August 16, 2017 @02:26PM (#15029880)
> Aren't those categories unactionable?

Not really; I mean, both sides of the log ideological struggle over capitalism and left alternatives has centered around both sides understanding and basing action around pretty much precisely the divisions in class interest reflected by those categories; they're quite actionable.

> I mean, a lady owns a beauty shop, spends 10 hours a day ordering supplies, doing payroll, managing advertising, hiring and fireing, somehow she's not working class because other people are involved and paid by her?

Right. As a business owner, she has distinct differences of interest from those living by wage labor (including an interest in minimizing the cost of wage labor); as someone who most apply their own labor as well as capital, she has economic interests distinct from those of pure capitalists. Hence, she's in the middle class of capitalism.

> A guy like Bill Gate's Dad is categorized middle class because he works alone, sort of, despite essentially bossing around his clients with autocratic decisions made in the quiet of his office?

Sure (though the founder of successful law firm probably is a working employer, not working alone.) Again, a similar alignment of interest is at play. There is an important distinction orthogonal to class, aside from just the degree of success, though: the lawyer is also part of the intelligentsia as well as the petit borgeoisie, while the beauty store owner is not. The intelligentsia cuts across classes, and have distinct interests.

Re:Gates Makes Largest Donation Since 2000 with $4.6B Pledge by RugnirViking on Wednesday August 16, 2017 @07:02AM (#15026506)
You think lower middle class have employees?
Re:Gates Makes Largest Donation Since 2000 with $4.6B Pledge by rusk on Wednesday August 16, 2017 @07:04AM (#15026516)
Depends on how you define the term. But Bill's background was certainly neither.
Re:Gates Makes Largest Donation Since 2000 with $4.6B Pledge by undersuit on Thursday August 17, 2017 @10:02AM (#15036835)
I've heard the same confused argument in the barrage of anti-Zuckerberg comments that came out after the most recent "Will Zuckerberg run for president?" articles. Gates and Zuckerberg lived in wealthy households with parents who worked. They may have been 1% in income, but their riches now place them so much higher on the income scale it's ludricrous to try and compare their incomes to their parents. To attack their childhood as privileged discounts all the other people who were less well off during childhood who had made similar gains in wealth and perpetuates a very limited argument that all the 1% are bad. Essentially Bill Gates and Mark Zuckerberg as children were closer to the rest of the nation financially then they are now. You want to attack the privileged; wait until their children start doing things.
Re:Gates Makes Largest Donation Since 2000 with $4.6B Pledge by randyrand on Wednesday August 16, 2017 @01:13AM (#15025097)
88% of the very wealthy ($30+ million) in the USA made their wealth themselves.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/niallmccarthy/2016/10/10/where-...

Re:Gates Makes Largest Donation Since 2000 with $4.6B Pledge by nebabyte on Tuesday August 15, 2017 @10:25PM (#15024509)
> Yet many want to 'solve' the problem of the 0.1% being so wealthy and as a result let the government do most of the charity work instead. I think this would be a huge mistake.

...You don't see the problem in relying on the charatibility of a tiny few to work towards the well-being of billions?

Re:Gates Makes Largest Donation Since 2000 with $4.6B Pledge by Retric on Tuesday August 15, 2017 @02:15PM (#15020818)
I don't want to 'take it back.' But, I feel donations should not be tax deductible. Why should I subsidize anything someone feels is worth donating for?
Re:Gates Makes Largest Donation Since 2000 with $4.6B Pledge by randyrand on Tuesday August 15, 2017 @02:21PM (#15020884)
I edited my comment. By take back I did not mean the current wealth from of the current generation of wealthy. But take-back over generations using very large marginal tax rates. E.g. 'solve' the problem of the 0.1% being so rich.
Re:Gates Makes Largest Donation Since 2000 with $4.6B Pledge by Retric on Tuesday August 15, 2017 @03:12PM (#15021356)
Confiscating wealth is counter productive. But, so is a large group with unearned wealth where nobody they know actually earned anything.

IMO, the balance point is setting things up so the default is wealth is not maintained across several generations (3+), even though it can be passed down 1 or 2 generations and can be maintained with care past that point.

PS: I say this with many wealthy friends and family. It's surprisingly destructive and I don't want to setup multi generational wealth for my great grand children.

Re:Gates Makes Largest Donation Since 2000 with $4.6B Pledge by tankerdude on Tuesday August 15, 2017 @04:51PM (#15022381)
The sad part is that that's what is happening in the world today. The rich, when they fund their money correctly, stay rich due to tax policy, gray areas, and loopholes. (Insurance polices as one example for the ultra rich.)

If we don't tax people when they pass away, the money goes straight to their kids, and then a permanent upper class forms and we know what happened to France...

The US has been about meritocracy, and not an aristocracy. But people want to change that, to the detriment of the country, IMO.

Re:Gates Makes Largest Donation Since 2000 with $4.6B Pledge by randyrand on Tuesday August 15, 2017 @05:27PM (#15022795)
When I said "But take-back over generations" I was not referring to an inheritance tax. I was referring to preventing new people from becoming as wealthy as today's wealthy by changing to a very large marginal income tax rate. It would be clearer if I said "widdle down the size of wealthy class over time". By far most of the wealthy today are new money, so an inheritance tax would do little in that regard anyway.

But back to inheritance:

> not maintained across several generations (3+)

You're inventing problems. Inheritance decreases exponentially. Multi 3+ generational wealth is already divided by 64 times (assuming 2 children + spouses). It is not possible without the children putting in significant work themselves. You're inventing problems.

At least we have common ground. Being able to pass on our successes to our children is a large and important motivator in life - one that would be incredibly unwise to remove.

Re:Gates Makes Largest Donation Since 2000 with $4.6B Pledge by Retric on Tuesday August 15, 2017 @05:50PM (#15023011)
You assume the spouse is not wealthy. Wealthy spouse turns 1:2 into 2:2 which is stable. Interest can also slow for the occasional al 2:3+ growth. Europe has family's that have maintained wealth over the past 500+ years.

"That’s according to a recent study by two Italian economists, Guglielmo Barone and Sauro Mocetti, who compared Florentine taxpayers way back in 1427 to those in 2011. Comparing the family wealth to those with the same surname today, they suggest the richest families in Florence 600 years ago remain the same now."

England has also had wealth maintained for 28 generations and other old money examples are not hard to find.

Re:Gates Makes Largest Donation Since 2000 with $4.6B Pledge by randyrand on Tuesday August 15, 2017 @06:15PM (#15023207)
> That’s according to a recent study by two Italian economists, Guglielmo Barone and Sauro Mocetti, who compared Florentine taxpayers way back in 1427 to those in 2011. Comparing the family wealth to those with the same surname today, they suggest the richest families in Florence 600 years ago remain the same now.

I recall that study. They were still a multiple orders of magnitudes less wealthy, and that ignores any wealth/money/work children added themselves since that time. If anything, this study proves my point.

>Europe has family's that have maintained wealth over the past 500+ years.

>England has also had wealth maintained for 28 generations and other old money examples are not hard to find.

That's an excellent example of survivorship bias. Again also not acknowledging any work the kids have put in to maintain that wealth.

For every example of a rich family whose money has been kept for 3+ generations, I could find you 100 examples that dont (not actually, I should probably be getting back to work).

This is a non-issue.

Re:Gates Makes Largest Donation Since 2000 with $4.6B Pledge by meric on Tuesday August 15, 2017 @08:23PM (#15023988)
I don't agree on large marginal taxes on labor, you'd be targeting high earning surgeons rather than rich families inheriting wealth. If we want to tax capital, tax capital, and put a wealth tax of low single digit percentage point paid yearly. If you want to exclude people's first home, then do that.
Re:Gates Makes Largest Donation Since 2000 with $4.6B Pledge by randyrand on Wednesday August 16, 2017 @01:15AM (#15025099)
I'm still not sure how much of a problem this really is.

88% of the very wealthy ($30+ million) in the USA made their wealth themselves.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/niallmccarthy/2016/10/10/where-...

...the best source I could find.

Re:Gates Makes Largest Donation Since 2000 with $4.6B Pledge by Retric on Wednesday August 16, 2017 @08:52AM (#15027044)
That's with a long history of estate taxes and strong economic growth. Also, if you look at Americans with 10+ billion far more than 12% inherited their money.

The US has been stagnating with lower GDP growth rate over time which will likely change these numbers. Because the low % of inhered wealth is mostly due to large numbers of new wealthy not children of the wealthy losing their money. http://www.lagunabeachbikini.com/images/2014/economy/RGDPgro...

Re:Gates Makes Largest Donation Since 2000 with $4.6B Pledge by pc86 on Tuesday August 15, 2017 @02:20PM (#15020874)
Well, only certain kinds of donations are tax deductible. You can donate $10,000 to me right now but you're not getting a penny back from the IRS if you do.

The bar to become a charity could be a lot higher but it's not exactly a rubber stamp.

Re:Gates Makes Largest Donation Since 2000 with $4.6B Pledge by Retric on Tuesday August 15, 2017 @02:59PM (#15021245)
If I pay you 10,000$ you and I pay a tax. But, there is a separate gift tax deduction and small gifts. https://www.irs.gov/businesses/small-businesses-self-employe...

Donations are really a 3 way tax break, I don't pay taxes on the gift, you don't pay taxes on the gift, and I don't pay income taxes on the money I use as a gift. (The arguable forth deduction is I don't need to realize capital gains before giving a gift.)

PS: The only way to actually lower taxes is to lower spending. Anything else is just shifting the burden to someone else.

Re:Gates Makes Largest Donation Since 2000 with $4.6B Pledge by adventured on Tuesday August 15, 2017 @08:03PM (#15023883)
> Donations are really a 3 way tax break

That doesn't make sense given the sums we're talking about. If I give someone $100 million (non-charitable), I don't have to pay an extra tax on the giving, I only pay taxes on the income. You're referring to a very specific gift tax scenario.

The majority of the Gates Foundation giving is not within the US. The people on the end receiving should not pay taxes on that as it pertains to the US. Further, the Gates Foundation giving within the US will frequently end up taxed after the gift via income taxes on salaries (whether we're talking about scientists, secretaries or in the field workers receiving foundation dollars to operate as part of a charitable organization).

The scope to the triple tax premise is, in reality, dramatically more narrow.

Re:Gates Makes Largest Donation Since 2000 with $4.6B Pledge by Retric on Wednesday August 16, 2017 @10:19AM (#15027637)
According to the US tax code you really do have to pay millions in taxes on a 100 million dollar gift to someone else. If they are in another country then that country's tax code applies and they might need to pay even more money.

Here is the actual form: https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/f709.pdf

19 If line 18 is less than line 17, enter balance due

Re:Gates Makes Largest Donation Since 2000 with $4.6B Pledge by RhysU on Wednesday August 16, 2017 @12:39AM (#15024965)
How is not taking his money subsidizing him? Tax credits would be subsidizing him.
Re:Gates Makes Largest Donation Since 2000 with $4.6B Pledge by Retric on Wednesday August 16, 2017 @10:46AM (#15027854)
Tax breaks for specific activities are by dentition a subsidy by lowering costs.

If people with blue eyes suddenly did not have to pay taxes then that would be a massive subsidy. If you get a pay check and the taxes are already taken it it's just as much 'your money' as if you got the full paycheck then had to pay taxes after the fact. The point is more money goes out of your paycheck because the US government subsidizes other and often very rich people.

Re:Gates Makes Largest Donation Since 2000 with $4.6B Pledge by rusk on Wednesday August 16, 2017 @04:22AM (#15025811)
Sorry for my ignorance but is this merely a technical distinction? I would have thought tax-credits, and non-deduction are effectively equivalent?