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Re:Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo by toomuchtodo on Monday August 07, 2017 @10:16PM (#14953192)
> You have chosen to support virulent bigots and misogynists…but don’t want to be called one yourself? Methinks you protest a little too much.

I support bigots and misogynists speaking their opinions because its a right enumerated by the US constitution. I don't mind being called a bigot or misogynists myself if that's what is required to defend inalienable rights.

You have no right not to be outraged or offended by someone's opinion. And it is disgusting to see someone's livelihood jeopardized because of political correctness. The backlash started in November, and this is only going to dump gasoline on the raging dumpster fire.

Re:Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo by geofft on Monday August 07, 2017 @10:32PM (#14953357)
> I support bigots and misogynists speaking their opinions because its a right enumerated by the US constitution.

I support bigots and misogynists speaking their opinions too.

I do not support tech companies that hire smart people continuing to employ people that argue for substantial changes in policy based on nonexistent science and personal feelings. It is not "political correctness" that gets someone fired for failing to test a change before deploying it in production and breaking the site; it is a lack of critical thinking skills. The memo displayed a lack of critical thinking skills.

If you try to claim that individuals in a free society should be averse to taking someone's opinions and words into account when deciding whether to associate with that person, you are essentially saying that opinions and words don't matter. That's a far greater threat to free speech than government censorship is. An oppressive government can be overthrown, subversive publications can be made, end-to-end encryption can get ideas across, etc. But a society that believes that opinions are of no consequence has lost all hope. It is not the government-enforced dystopia of 1984 but the self-imposed dystopia of Fahrenheit 451.

Re:Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo by Sacho on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @07:20AM (#14956602)
> based on nonexistent science and personal feelings

But his memo had extensive sourcing, including many scientific studies. Are you saying that those studies are nonsense?

> It is not "political correctness" that gets someone fired for failing to test a change before deploying it in production and breaking the site; it is a lack of critical thinking skills.

This is opposite the blameless culture laid out as best practices by the leaders in tech, so I don't know why you would assert it as a good reason to fire someone.

I too, like you, think words matter and think we should be able to take people's beliefs into account when choosing to associate with them. I'd like to note that our opinion is pretty controversial - it's actually illegal to do this for several wide ranges of people's beliefs, when it comes to employment! So perhaps there is a middle ground between "words don't matter" and "we must support all opinions", and in watering down the argument to these two simplistic extremes we're ignoring the complex reality evident before us.

Re:Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo by geofft on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @08:20AM (#14956998)
> But his memo had extensive sourcing, including many scientific studies. Are you saying that those studies are nonsense?

"Extensive" seems like a stretch. Here are the scientific (i.e., non-Wikipedia, non-media) citations:

- women are more interested in people than things (DOI 10.1111/j.1751-9004.2010.00320.x)

- women score on average .4 sigma higher on "neuroticism" than men (DOI 10.1037/0022-3514.94.1.168)

- the average woman is more interested in work-life balance than the average man (DOI 0.1080/03069880600769118)

- moralizing issues is sometimes bad (DOI 10.1111/1467-9280.00139)

- the concept of "microaggressions" lacks scientific backing (DOI 10.1177/1745691616659391)

Of those, only the last one is directly relevant to his policy proposals. (And it seems to be one researcher's position paper, anyway, but I'm happy to grant for the moment that it holds the weight of scientific consensus.)

The rest are all interesting scientific facts but the connection to his policy proposals is incredibly unclear. I said it's based on personal feelings because the idea that software engineering involves caring about things more than people, that neuroticism (in the psychological sense) makes one less suited for software engineering, and that advancement in tech requires giving up work-life balance. As many others have argued (e.g., https://medium.com/@yonatanzunger/so-about-this-googlers-man... ), these are opinions of an extremely junior engineer who has confused "software engineering" with "writing lines of code".

If we're going to take the logic in this article seriously, we should much more readily take seriously 'aphyr's (absurdist) suggestion that men perform better on technical tasks in societies where they're not allowed to own property: https://twitter.com/aphyr/status/894211417561341952 That one has a solid scientific citation and direct relevance to the policy proposal it's making!

> This is opposite the blameless culture laid out as best practices by the leaders in tech

The blameless postmortem relies on the fact that you trust everyone to be making the best decisions they can under the circumstances and you trust them all to be well-informed and qualified, and that sometimes mistakes happen anyway and the identity of the person who makes it is basically chance. Take GitLab's recent incident: if a company's practices don't involve testing backups, and someone is responding to an urgent production problem and deletes the wrong directory, it's not a sign that the person who got paged is particularly incompetent. There is incompetence, but it's a property of the entire team: backups should exist and be tested, runbooks should be clearer, production hosts should be more visible, etc.

But as a consequence, in order for the blameless postmortem to work, you have to actually trust your engineers to be competent. A person who writes a manifesto like this is also the sort of person who's going to read a half-complete answer on StackOverflow that offers a simplistic but enticing explanation, and conclude that it is 100% relevant to their problem despite evidence to the contrary, questioning relevant internal docs along the way. Someone who does that isn't someone you want responding to production incidents. You don't want to blame them - because you don't want to risk them causing problems in the first place.

Such a person is a mishire. The fact that certain people are rejected in the interview process (including false negatives!) does not violate the blameless culture. Once you conclude that someone was a false positive hire, you should promptly let them go with a generous severance.

Re:Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo by toomuchtodo on Thursday August 10, 2017 @01:18AM (#14976660)
> Such a person is a mishire. The fact that certain people are rejected in the interview process (including false negatives!) does not violate the blameless culture. Once you conclude that someone was a false positive hire, you should promptly let them go with a generous severance.

You might just have a terrible organization or managers with no or poor experience. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Re:Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo by geofft on Thursday August 10, 2017 @08:30AM (#14978932)
Let's be clear, I'm not advocating for the rejection of promising junior candidates with the intellectual curiosity to learn how to do things. I think more companies need to hire such people, and I've strongly advocated for hiring them at my jobs (with mixed results).

But that doesn't imply that an organization or manager's job is to teach everyone everything. There exist non-junior roles, and very often there are people who are mishires for a senior role but great hires for a junior one, or mishires for a certain company but great hires for another one, etc. Sometimes what you're looking for is a senior engineer, and saying "This person isn't senior, they're not right for this role" isn't a failing of management or of the organization.

Damore was a senior engineer (L5) at Google, which is definitely not a junior role (it's the first level where they don't expect you to be getting promoted within 1-2 years, IIRC).

(Let's also be clear, everything I've said about dealing with mishires promptly also applies to mishires in management or mis-promotions into management. There are a lot of people in management who have no business there, and should get either a promotion to a highly-ranked IC role or a generous severance so they can find one elsewhere, before they do more harm to their team.)

Re:Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo by deegles on Monday August 07, 2017 @10:31PM (#14953343)
Freedom of speech protects you from government persecution, not social stigma.
Re:Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo by toomuchtodo on Monday August 07, 2017 @11:03PM (#14953652)
We're not talking social stigma; we're talking about someone being fired, having their financial situation put in jeopardy because of inadequate worker protections.

If you think that's okay because of the views this engineer holds, you're a terrible human being.

Re:Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo by tomjakubowski on Monday August 07, 2017 @11:44PM (#14953975)
It's not exactly clear from your comments so I'll just ask: is an employer ever justified in firing an employee for expressing their viewpoint?
Re:Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo by toomuchtodo on Monday August 07, 2017 @11:48PM (#14954007)
I have to err on the side of caution and say no, just as an employer can't fire someone for their religious beliefs (which are arguably just as inflaming as the viewpoints people take issue with in this thread).
Re:Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo by zzalpha on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @12:36AM (#14954350)
No right is unlimited, even if it's in the constitution.

For example, libel, slander, and harassment may all take the form of "speech" but are unquestionably firing offenses. Those are also criminal offenses because the balance of harms swings away from the person who's free speech rights might be violated, toward the person who's own rights are being violated due to the exercise of free speech itself.

As that old adage goes: My right to swing my fist ends where your nose begins.

Re:Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo by rdtsc on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @12:12AM (#14954185)
Unlike in many countries, in US in most states employment is "at-will" this sounds nice and friendly but it means officially they can let the employee go for any reason at any time unless that reason is one of discrimination due to a limited set of categories. Of course people are discriminated all the time based on religion, race, sexual preferences, age, gender etc, it is just that is not the official reason. It can always be molded into some "performance review", "downsizing", "business goals" etc. kind of thing. Proving otherwise requires an expensive lawsuit looking for patterns over a longer period of time and candidates or requires someone to blow the whistle and say "oh when the CEO say 'culture fit' we really mean they are of a wrong race or gender, everyone knows that around here..."
Re:Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo by jquery on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @01:37AM (#14954744)
You can't be let go for being a whistleblower or someone who wants to improve hiring practices. The author has grounds for a lawsuit and was likely fired illegally.
Re:Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo by rdtsc on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @02:32AM (#14955026)
But they can always find another reason to let him go. "Restructuring" or some similar thing would work. They just fired him, I presume the lawyers looked at it and probably didn't see much of a risk.
Re:Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo by jquery on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @02:37AM (#14955061)
Doesn't pass the sniff test. His memo was open, notorious, and even received a response from senior management.

More likely than the lawyers saying the firing was legal, is that Google decided the cost of an illegal firing was less than the cost of keeping him onboard.

Re:Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo by nxmehta on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @01:26AM (#14954672)
Apparently you are unfamiliar with: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/At-will_employment

I guess you don't work in the United States? Because it's certainly fine for him to be fired for this.

Re:Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo by odessacubbage on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @03:56AM (#14955500)
the page you refer to hardly makes it look so cut and dry. how would California's exemptions to at will employment factor into this situation? >http://www.hullmcguire.com/pdf/Hull%20McGuire%20-%20Californ...
Re:Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo by nxmehta on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @05:03AM (#14955899)
Nice catch ;) The "implied contract" at-will exception in CA in recent years can be avoided by specific language and precautions in your contract. So yes, theoretically a former employee can sue and win for unjust termination, but practically speaking this never happens, particularly for large, careful employers.
Re:Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo by greekyogurt21 on Monday August 07, 2017 @11:20PM (#14953781)
Nah, the employee blackened the eye of the company he works for, potentially causing monetary loss. As a result of the employees controversial memo, the company deemed it necessary to terminate the employee to prevent any additional costs incurred with keeping him on. He's free to spew whatever nonsense he wanto, just like his employer is free to prevent themselves from losing money. :)
Re:Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo by peak_body_yo on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @02:59AM (#14955174)
The devil's advocate says that there are many opinions that you would disagree should be fireable.
Re:Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo by weberc2 on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @01:23AM (#14954654)
It's illegal to fire people over their politics, and that's clearly what happened here.
Re:Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo by deong on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @02:12AM (#14954917)
(1) It's not illegal to fire someone for their politics (it's not one of the enumerated protected classes under federal employment laws anti-discrimination law at least), and (2) it's not "clearly" what happened here -- arguably sure, but there are other ways to see it.
Re:Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo by gkop on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @03:41AM (#14955427)
In fact regarding (1) CA state law adds a protected class "Political activities or affiliations", http://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/california-employment...
Re:Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo by weberc2 on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @08:43AM (#14957192)
Oh shit. You're right; I thought for sure I read otherwise. My mistake. As my sibling commenter notes, it is apparently illegal in CA.
Re:Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo by greekyogurt21 on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @02:08AM (#14954906)
Ah yes, I totally forgot that "males are less neurotic and have more drive than females". Silly me. Good luck finding any women to work with you when you spew such nonsense. Aka creating a toxic work place
Re:Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo by Aunche on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @02:56AM (#14955163)
Many psychological studies have confirmed psychological differences between men and women. It is not toxic to discuss these findings.
Re:Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo by weberc2 on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @08:37AM (#14957125)
It seems like half of this debate is utterly preoccupied with misrepresenting the other half. I guess the social justice position is too weak and it's adherents lacking in integrity.
Re:Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo by syshum on Monday August 07, 2017 @10:49PM (#14953532)
No, this is one of the problems we have in society today is this misunderstanding of Freedom of Speech

Freedom of speech is the right to articulate one's opinions and ideas without fear of government retaliation or censorship, or societal sanction

Not just from government censorship, but from SOCIETY censorship as well

Governments, at least Western Government, are a reflection of society in general often delayed by a generation or so. As such if society deems fit to Censor something often that translates into the government censoring the same thing just a few year later.

We must be always mindful of threats to free speech not just from government but from society at large.

It is incumbent upon everyone to respect everyone else's freedom of expression, individually

Re:Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo by meddlepal on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @12:48AM (#14954437)
FoS so far as the U.S. Constitution defines it has nothing to do with society. It's all about government.
Re:Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo by syshum on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @05:28AM (#14956005)
I fail to understand what the US Constitution has to do with this conversation.

The US Constitution is a document that outlines what powers the people of the US have granted to the Federal government, it has no bearing on what I am talking about

Re:Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo by meddlepal on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @06:58AM (#14956475)
Uh... Amendment #1 deals with FoS. Sentences 2 and 3 of your post talk about Government AND Society. The first amendment doesn't give a rat's ass about what society thinks. Its a restriction only on the government.
Re:Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo by sbmassey on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @11:14AM (#14958649)
You are the one that brought up the US constitution, the OP was talking about freedom of speech as a principle. It is hardly surprising that the US constitution would only apply FoS to the government, since that is what it is trying to define, but the principle of FoS can apply to society as much as anything else.
Re:Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo by xorfish on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @10:58AM (#14958438)
Freedom of Speech is a principle. It has a value on it's own. I wish more people would see that.
Re:Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo by drewbuschhorn on Monday August 07, 2017 @11:32PM (#14953878)
Who's tradition are you using for that society argument?

It sounds like a facile reading of Mills, without ever going to the back half where he talks about valid reasons for a society to put pressure on an individual, but I've been more on the Federalist papers this year for obvious reasons.

Re:Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo by undersuit on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @12:58AM (#14954514)
To add to this, the ex-Googler is still able to express his speech, just not under the private platform of Google. This would be a far different and more contentious case if Google fired an employee for their free speech under a personal website and not a company website.
Re:Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo by acchow on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @03:50AM (#14955473)
The freedom of speech in the constitution protects you from government persecution.

But the idea is bigger than the constitution. I think it is best expressed in The Friends of Voltaire: "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it".

This is a deep idea. I think it is virtuous.

Silence no ideas.

Re:Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo by metaphorm on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @12:08AM (#14954156)
the 1st amendment of the constitution is a prohibition of the federal government enacting a law that limits freedom of religion, expression, or association.

freedom of speech is a far more general moral principle and social norm. we ought not conflate the two and there is much more utility in discussing the more general case of freedom of speech and not the narrower more legalistic case of the 1st amendment.

Re:Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo by cabalamat on Monday August 07, 2017 @11:18PM (#14953763)
No. Freedom of speech is a social convention, and only secondarily a matter of law. http://slatestarcodex.com/2017/07/29/against-signal-boosting...
Re:Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo by hobls on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @02:24AM (#14954975)
> You have no right to be outraged or offended...

What. Of course there is a right to be offended and outraged by someone's opinion. It's the same right that allows someone to share a dumb opinion in the first place.

Re:Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo by tomjen3 on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @03:11AM (#14955229)
You cut out the not in the grand parent post.
Re:Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo by hobls on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @03:49PM (#14961788)
Oh, whoops. I misread that. <insert gif of homer disappearing into a bush>
Re:Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo by wan23 on Monday August 07, 2017 @11:15PM (#14953735)
You absolutely have a right not to be outraged or offended by someone's opinion at your place of employment if you work for a company with any sense. Companies that play fast and loose with HR risk becoming the next Uber - a company whose toxic environment has caused more than a few talented engineers to say they wouldn't work there for literally a million dollars.
Re:Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo by koolba on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @12:07AM (#14954143)
You really don't though. You have a right not to be harassed but you don't have an inherent right not to be outraged based on whatever cockamamie standards you choose that morning.

I'm personally outraged by people who think it's okay to write emails and chat messages with improper punctuation and spelling mistakes. Mixed case sentences, emojis, and made up capitalized abbreviations make my blood boil. But none of that is grounds for me getting those people terminated.

If I don't want to deal them I can go work somewhere else. That's the right I have. Not the right to silence them.

It's the same if they decide to express their political opinions or sports affiliations.

Re:Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo by dbnoch on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @12:33AM (#14954333)
You do see that you are comparing 1. woman being biologically inferior to 2. sports affiliations.

For another example: It would be the same as saying Blacks are inferior to 2. political opinions.

That is NOT OK. It is not a question of being outraged, it is a question of a hostile workplace.

Re:Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo by collyw on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @09:39AM (#14957678)
He said they were different, not inferior. He pointed out some differences that would be considered superior.
Re:Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo by koolba on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @06:11AM (#14956209)
> You do see that you are comparing 1. woman being biologically inferior to 2. sports affiliations.

No I'm not. I'm saying that there is a distinction between being offended/outraged and being harassed. Just because someone is offended by something doesn't mean it's harassment. My examples were explicitly meant to be silly to demonstrate the point.

Re:Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo by AOsborn on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @02:25AM (#14954987)
> You absolutely have a right not to be outraged or offended by someone's opinion at your place of employment if you work for a company with any sense.

What?

Harassment is different and can be objectively defined in the scope of the business and/or role.

But outrage/offense is subjective. You can change your views from one day to the next, or flip perspectives over lunch. You don't get to come back from lunch with a new view, and have a 'right not to be offended'.

You come across as very entitled.

Re:Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo by adjkant on Monday August 07, 2017 @10:29PM (#14953321)
There is a strong difference between supporting their right to speak their opinions and supporting their opinions. By voting for those candidates and if you have supported the party, you have supported their opinions, not just their right to share them.

This comes down to your views on a single question: do you have to be tolerant of opinions or actions that harm others? Right now, I think most progressives say no, conservatives obviously say yes. That is the actual gray area this comes down to.

This is an exaggeration, but it illustrates the argument of the left: http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/001/223/669/6bc...

It should also be noted that the US constitution is being used very out of context here. The US constitution guarantees you the right to say what you want. It does not protect you from the repercussions of your speech, which is what is harming the livelihoods you cite. Whether that is moral is a valid debate, but misusing the constitution here is a broken crutch for the argument. The right has made common use of misusing the constitution, most recently in their abandonment of "states rights" during the current administration.

Re:Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo by swat535 on Monday August 07, 2017 @11:11PM (#14953708)
There cannot be a division between the exercise of a right and the protection of repercussion of exercising said right. To not afford protection to those who exercise a constitutional right is to strip all practical effect of those rights

It is illogical to conclude that we give people certain rights if we were simply to abandon them to their persecutors when they choose to exercise their rights. What was theoretically protected becomes merely a facade and an illusion that people have rights when in fact they are at the mercy of those who would attempt to subvert their rights

The practical effect of legislation is at the core of even the most introductory and basic courses of any law degree whether it is from an Ivy League University or the most rundown backwater campus

The general statement that you don't benefit from a certain degree of protection when exercising a constitutional right without any sort of mention of what a reasonable limit on those rights would be completely ignores the fact that constitutions were drafted PRECISELY to protect individuals who wished to exercise those rights

Re:Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo by etchalon on Monday August 07, 2017 @11:51PM (#14954033)
The problem in cases of "social outrage" is that the outrage is, itself, expression.

The same protections that you demand exist for people expressing their right has to fall on both sides of a debate.

You can't draw a neat box around one person's thought and say "protect this from others".

Re:Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo by Sacho on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @07:28AM (#14956643)
This makes it a complex problem and a balancing act, but it doesn't mean we just throw our hands up in the air and give up. For example, California's Labor Code contains this piece of legislation protecting freedom of speech against retaliation in very specific circumstances: http://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displaySection...

The "chilling speech" effect is one of many reasons why anti-SLAPP statutes exist, a way to explicitly protect freedom of speech from specious attacks.

We certainly couldn't expect people to have no reaction to speech, in fact, no reaction to speech would mean the speech is worthless! But there are cases where we can decide that a certain retaliation to speech is explicitly prohibited, and this is uncontroversial enough to find many examples of laws and statutes doing just that.

Re:Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo by etchalon on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @11:26AM (#14958800)
California's statues are about protecting an individual from retaliation against workplace complaints. While you can argue it is related to FoS, I think it's a bit of a stretch. The statues would not, for instance, protect you if you told your co-workers your boss was murdering children in his office every day, no matter how much you believe it to be true.

Anti-SLAPP is about protecting people from the financial drain of a lawsuit by a third-party looking to intimidate. It does nothing to force anyone involved to continue to employ, or do business with, any individual.

The problem in this case, from an employer's perspective, is that they have one employee who is creating a toxic atmosphere not from a protected position, but from a hostile one.

And while you might believe that people who read his memo as "toxic" are over-reacting to it (and there is an argument there, though one I wouldn't agree with), they must be free to "overreact" and speak their mind.

It does get very, very tricky, since while unpopular racist/sexist opinions may necessarily create problematic dynamics in the work place, that could easily also be true of opinions those who decry this memo would think should be protected. If I work at a company with a steeped culture of faith, and I walk around talking about how Christian's are stupid, to what extent should the employer be forced to continue to employ me?

I tend to believe that, to the extent we have freedom of speech, we chose when and how to exercise that in public. Our choices have consequences, and it is on us to accept those.

I'm a small business owner. If tomorrow, I write a "memo" which says something as moronic as "Women don't make good clients", and I HAVE women as clients, I can't expect them to continue to want to do business with me. I can't demand any type of legal protection which would force them to continue to do business with me.

It is just as true that, at least with my company, I can see many types of clients who would not appreciate the libertine culture of my agency. I've had more than one potential client, who found out we used to take our employees to a regional Burning Man event, show extreme discomfort at it, and it likely cost me the account.

I've had job applicants turn down working here because they were more conservative (and one I remember who thought we were too conservative for them).

That's just the nature of the thing. People are free to say what they want, to associate with who they want, and must accept the social consequences for doing so.

Re:Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo by toomuchtodo on Monday August 07, 2017 @10:31PM (#14953342)
> This comes down to your views on a single question: do you have to be tolerant of opinions or actions that harm others?

The debate and argument of ideas is non-negotiable if we desire a free society.

EDIT: I choose to be tolerant of ideas that may be abhorrent or cause harm, because the alternative is much worse.

Re:Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo by RaleyField on Monday August 07, 2017 @11:02PM (#14953643)
Freedom of speech is only relevant to government and public spaces, shareholders of google may impose restrictions they deem appropriate.

EDIT: Wtf is wrong with people on HN today? I merely stated the law, it isn't even my opinion. It demonstrably passed Google's legal team, so it's unlikely that I'm wrong.

Re:Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo by toomuchtodo on Monday August 07, 2017 @11:04PM (#14953660)
> shareholders of google may impose restrictions they deem appropriate.

As may the government through statute. This is simply a matter of the constitution not going far enough, and additional law needed to prevent employment termination from expression not deemed "in fashion".

Re:Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo by RaleyField on Monday August 07, 2017 @11:40PM (#14953938)
> This is simply a matter of the constitution not going far enough

I don't have to hear obscenities on my private property.

There's also freedom of association. It seems weird to me that one would be against authoritarianism when it comes to freedom of speech but be blindly for authoritarianism when it comes to association. I won't and can't judge whether the firing of that googler was justified but shareholders of google should have the right to fire whoever they bloody want.

Re:Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo by toomuchtodo on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @12:02AM (#14954106)
> I won't and can't judge whether the firing of that googler was justified but shareholders of google should have the right to fire whoever they bloody want.

Would you hold the same argument if I decided to acquire 51% of Google stock and fire all female employees? Or just the ones that decided to exercise their free speech? What shareholders wants comes second to government regulations to protect workers, for good reason.

Re:Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo by Banthum on Monday August 07, 2017 @10:42PM (#14953447)
>This comes down to your views on a single question: do you have to be tolerant of opinions or actions that harm others? Right now, I think most progressives say no, conservatives obviously say yes. That is the actual gray area this comes down to.

Firing someone is a harmful action. Progressives obviously support this.

As for your cartoon - Categorizing anyone who disagrees with your values as a cartoon villain of pure evil, deserving of no rights and no response but violence, is the foundation of evil. The cartoon glorifies harmful action - and it's a great representation of the far left now.

Progressives absolutely tolerate opinions and actions that harm others - they hold the opinions and commit the actions with great energy.

Re:Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo by kraig911 on Monday August 07, 2017 @10:23PM (#14953255)
So your opinion can cause physical harm against others. Someone's livelihood should be jeapardized in this event. People are suffering right this second around the world by those that advocate the same thoughts as you are. Thoughts leads to words, words leads to actions, actions lead to atrocities.
Re:Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo by rothbardrand on Monday August 07, 2017 @10:30PM (#14953336)
Physical harm requires an action, whether legislative or physical. Words don't ipso-facto lead to actions and not all actions lead to atrocities.

An opinion does not cause physical harm.

This is the error with political correctness- as precisely defined-- it is the idea that you must be politically correct, otherwise you're causing a moral wrong.

I don't think this can be justified rigorously. But it is taken as an article of faith, almost, among its adherents.

From my perspective, it is used as a tool to control, by moving the overton window to exclude areas of thought that are different, and to rationalize actual actions that cause damage. (Firing someone isn't an atrocity, but it is harm.)

So, ironically you're advocating doing the harm you're using as justification to defend your ideology.

Re:Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo by UncleMeat on Monday August 07, 2017 @10:42PM (#14953446)
Opinions and culture can cause real harm. This was the basis for the scientific argument used in Brown v Board. That even if you could make everything literally equal, these sorts of spoken biases really do lead to measurable negative effects on people's lives.
Re:Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo by toomuchtodo on Monday August 07, 2017 @10:23PM (#14953262)
Ideas must be able to be freely discussed, argued, and debated in a free and democratic society.

Are you prepared to suppress and jail based on speech and words? Because that's what you're advocating for, and that's what authoritarian/totalitarian governments do.

Re:Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo by ucaetano on Monday August 07, 2017 @10:44PM (#14953464)
> Ideas must be able to be freely discussed, argued, and debated in a free and democratic society.

Not everywhere. You don't have to allow the free discussion of ideas by anyone in your home.

Freedom of speech is not a right to voice such speech wherever and whenever you want, or to be free of the consequences of such. Nobody has to give you the space or time to voice your speech.

Re:Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo by conradoqg on Monday August 07, 2017 @11:09PM (#14953690)
In authoritarian governments, you're also free to speak and usually, the consequence is your death, captivity, or torture. I don't buy that argument that you are free to speak but not free of the consequences.
Re:Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo by ucaetano on Monday August 07, 2017 @11:33PM (#14953883)
Are you saying that someone stopping to be your friend, or someone not wanting to have you as an employee is equivalent to the government killing you?
Re:Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo by nv-vn on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @12:31AM (#14954322)
No. That is a strawman of their argument. They are saying that freedom of speech means freedom from consequences for your speech. I don't really agree with their argument, but what they are saying is more nuanced than the way you've interpreted it. They are arguing for societal freedom of speech (morality instead of laws, I hope), meaning that you are free to speak but nobody has to listen. Consequences like firing someone from their job is different from not listening.
Re:Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo by ucaetano on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @12:36AM (#14954353)
It was an honest question, not an argument.

I had said: "Nobody has to give you the space or time to voice your speech", by which I was talking that private people and organizations do not have to give you the space and time for you to voice your speech.

His/her reply was that governments kill people so you should be free of the consequences of your speech.

The implication of this argument (being free of the consequences) means, for example, that your family can't not invite you over for Christmas because you're racist. Or that your friends can't stop hanging out with you, or that someone can't stop employing you.

Those are all consequences of your speech, and you're not protected from them (with a few exceptions).

Re:Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo by conradoqg on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @02:50PM (#14961198)
I agree with you on "nobody has to give you space or time to voice your speech". If you want to be free to speak your opinion but there are harsh consequences, that speech wasn't really "free". A lot of people will agree with you, a lot will not. My point is, there is no such thing as freedom of speech in our society, it's not an absolute freedom, and I'm OK with that. Our society will take a long time before we can truly accept freedom of speech and all its consequences. The other side is: What we have always seen in our society is if you think differently than the main stream thought you should be aware that will be consequences.

What do you think?

Re:Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo by ucaetano on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @04:08PM (#14961980)
> My point is, there is no such thing as freedom of speech in our society, it's not an absolute freedom, and I'm OK with that.

I'm ok with that, but I'd rephrase as "there is no absolute freedom of speech", or even better, "there is no absolute freedom" in our society, and I'm ok with that.

> Our society will take a long time before we can truly accept freedom of speech and all its consequences.

Do you mean

(1) (freedom of speech) and (freedom of the consequences of speech)

or

(2) accept (freedom of speech) and (consequences of speech)?

> What we have always seen in our society is if you think differently than the main stream thought you should be aware that will be consequences.

IMHO, there is no mainstream, only the immediate surroundings. Saying "women are less capable of doing CS jobs" next to that engineer who got fired will probably help you make a friend. Saying that in front of a woman will probably help you make an enemy.

Both are consequences of speech. You make, and lose, friends based on your speech. Why would someone find the positive consequences of your speech acceptable, but not the negative ones?

In life, there are always consequences. IMHO, the key part of being an adult is recognizing that your acts will have consequences, and being willing to face those consequences, positive or negative.

Re:Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo by conradoqg on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @07:09PM (#14963855)
> I'm ok with that, but I'd rephrase as "there is no absolute freedom of speech", or even better, "there is no absolute freedom" in our society, and I'm ok with that.

I think our opinions are much alike at this point.

> Do you mean

I mean 1. I think one day we should accept freedom of speech and freedom of the consequences. That will prevent bad/good ideas to gain further power and bad/good ideas to appear as an option. Offcourse which one is bad/good will depend on the judgment of the person who listens.

> IMHO, there is no mainstream, only the immediate surroundings. Saying "women are less capable of doing CS jobs" next to that engineer who got fired will probably help you make a friend. Saying that in front of a woman will probably help you make an enemy.

Mainstream = conventional, normal. So we could say we have both, the mainstream and your surrounds (probably your surrounding has more power than the mainstream, don't know)

> Both are consequences of speech. You make, and lose, friends based on your speech. Why would someone find the positive consequences of your speech acceptable, but not the negative ones?

Agree, both are. Usually, I often disagree with my best friends, sometimes our opinions are very, very different, and as far he doesn't act against my rights (settled by laws and our society), I'll accept and tolerate our divergence.If the opinion is too different, probably there will be no willingness to talk with each other. Saying "women are less capable of doing CS jobs" will make problems, I personally strongly disagree with that phrase, however, I wouldn't fire him because of that, is his opinion, and I respect that as far he doesn't break the law. (He would have a hard time trying to convince me of that, I would say that a warm discussion would happen)

> In life, there are always consequences. IMHO, the key part of being an adult is recognizing that your acts will have consequences, and be willing to face those consequences, positive or negative.

I also agree with that. I hope one day our society would be mature enough to separate opinions from consequences.

Re:Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo by ucaetano on Wednesday August 09, 2017 @11:24AM (#14970046)
Wait, we agree on all points? Meh, this is boring :)

Oh, I found something to pick on:

> I'll accept and tolerate our divergence

Would you continue to be friends in the same way with someone who came out and said "I just joined the KKK!"?

Re:Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo by metaphorm on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @12:14AM (#14954198)
we have laws that govern employment and we don't have laws that govern friendship. these two relationships are not morally or legally equivalent.
Re:Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo by ucaetano on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @12:16AM (#14954210)
And apparently the laws of employment in CA allow for you to fire someone you don't like, as long as it isn't for a few particular reasons.

A company can, for example, fire you for not liking the color red.

Re:Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo by jquery on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @01:41AM (#14954760)
It can't fire you for being a whistleblower.
Re:Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo by ucaetano on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @03:01AM (#14955181)
Sure, and nothing in the essay was whistleblowing.
Re:Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo by jquery on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @11:52AM (#14959102)
A court will decide that.
Re:Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo by stagbeetle on Monday August 07, 2017 @11:06PM (#14953674)
> or to be free of the consequences of such.

This is false. Under the United Declaration of Human Rights:

"Everyone has the right to freedom of opinion and expression; this right includes freedom to hold opinions without interference and to seek, receive and impart information and ideas through any media and regardless of frontiers." an extension of John Mill's:

"Freedom of speech is the right to articulate one's opinions and ideas without fear of government retaliation or censorship, or societal sanction.

Societal sanction and interference include the loss of one's job, threats against the speaker, etc.

See: "The first step in assessing whether a particular measure or situation breaches the right to freedom of expression is to assess the threshold question of whether or not someone’s right to freedom of expression has been interfered with or restricted. ... The scope of what constitutes an interference with freedom of expression is very wide. The European Convention on Human Rights, for example, refers to any “formalities, conditions, restrictions or penalties” imposed on the exercise of the right. In many cases, it is fairly obvious that there has been an interference, for example where someone has been sanctioned for making a statement or prevented from establishing a media outlet. International courts take a wide view of this. For example, the UN Human Rights Committee held that removing a teacher from the classroom for racist statements made outside of the classroom, while keeping him employed on the same conditions, was an interference with his right to freedom of expression..."[0]

[0]http://www.law-democracy.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/10.0...

Re:Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo by ucaetano on Monday August 07, 2017 @11:11PM (#14953703)
Oh, you have the right to hold opinions. You just don't have the right to hold opinions WHERE you want.

And no, being fired is not a societal sanction, just as someone asking you to leave their house isn't. A private company, just like a private house, is not "society".

Re:Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo by stagbeetle on Monday August 07, 2017 @11:28PM (#14953837)
Being fired is a societal sanction, a.k.a a limitation on freedom of expression[0].

Private homes are not sovereign lands and neither are companies.

[0]https://www.article19.org/pages/en/limitations.html

Re:Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo by joshuamorton on Monday August 07, 2017 @11:51PM (#14954034)
That source states that the limitation is defined as being by a public (ie. government) body.

>The nature of the public body is irrelevant. It could be legislative, executive or judicial, or a publicly owned enterprise

Re:Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo by stagbeetle on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @09:08AM (#14957402)
You're correct, I misread the source.
Re:Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo by ucaetano on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @12:15AM (#14954205)
Google is not a government, so your point is moot.

The source you provide, which is just an opinion, talks only about governments.

Citing your own source:

"The right to freedom of expression cannot be limited at the whim of a public official"

Re:Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo by stagbeetle on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @09:07AM (#14957388)
Google is under government regulation. They cannot discriminate against others for their opinions of what they say.

>"The source you provide, which is just an opinion, talks only about governments."

This is incorrect. Article 19 is a prominent humans right organization, specifically focusing on Article 19 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. This is also the second source agreeing that you cannot fire someone for what they say.

Here, I'll add a third: http://www.ohchr.org/Documents/Publications/SDecisionsVol7en... pg 54, Ross vs Canada. This is straight from the UN.

Re:Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo by ucaetano on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @10:12AM (#14957902)
They can, except in some cases (protected speech). And being regulated by the government doesn't make you the government.

So again, your entire argument does not apply at all to Google, or any other non-government entity.

Re:Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo by stagbeetle on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @10:25AM (#14958028)
Discrimination in the common-sense, against political idealology and permanent factors (race, gender, etc).

It's illegal to retaliate/discriminate (being fired is covered under this definition) on the basis of an employee's political activity.[0]

[0]http://codes.findlaw.com/ca/labor-code/lab-sect-1101.html

Re:Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo by ucaetano on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @11:23AM (#14958756)
But it is ok to fire an employee if such political activity creates a hostile work environment and so on.

You could even argue that nothing in the essay was political activity, then, again, your point is moot.

Re:Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo by stagbeetle on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @11:37AM (#14958918)
Legally, sure.

Fairly, under the United Declaration of Human Rights, or if it were a just world, no.

"You could even argue that nothing in the essay was political activity, then, again, your point is moot."

I don't think so. Any topic that has a clear dichotomy between two political parties is in-itself a political issue. Again, the umbrella for political activity is a wide one.

Re:Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo by ucaetano on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @12:36PM (#14959579)
Now you have resigned yourself to using your personal interpretations of "fair" and "political activity" as your arguments. Not much left to discuss then...
Re:Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo by stagbeetle on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @12:43PM (#14959652)
These are the terms our discussion was based on.

You said "Freedom of speech is not a right to voice such speech wherever and whenever you want, or to be free of the consequences of such."

I rebutted with authority sources saying the opposite and your following rebuttals were all opinion.

I'm not going to point blame, but this is a two-way street and requires effort from both parties.

Re:Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo by ucaetano on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @04:10PM (#14962001)
No, you rebutted with interpretations from a single party which are actually referring to governments only, not companies.

So, again, you have provided no argument regarding Google's case.

Re:Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo by stagbeetle on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @05:02PM (#14962679)
This is dishonest.

The first party was the Centre for Law and Democracy (based in Canada). The second party was Article 19 (registered in UK) -- however I was informed I misread the print on this one. The third party was the Office of the United Nations (based in USA/NY and SWI). The fourth party was the California Labor Code.

You have offered, in this entire comment chain:

1). Your opinion on how freedom of expression should be restricted (unsourced)

2). Your opinion on what constitutes a societal sanction (unsourced)

3). Your opinion on what constitutes fair grounds for dismissal (unsourced)

So I will rebut, once again, with sources countering your claims.

You: "They [Google] can [discriminate on what you say], except in some cases (protected speech). And being regulated by the government doesn't make you the government."

Employees are protected under "anti-discrimination laws such as Title VII, RCW 40.60 (the Washington Laws Against Discrimination or “WLAD”) and various local laws. "[0]

Local laws include California's Labor Code - LAB § 1101: "No employer shall make, adopt, or enforce any rule, regulation, or policy:

(a) Forbidding or preventing employees from engaging or participating in politics or from becoming candidates for public office.

(b) Controlling or directing, or tending to control or direct the political activities or affiliations of employees."[1]

Google would also be in violation of "Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964"[2] for retaliation against objections of its discriminatory practices against men (section n, paragraph 1). Which Google, under the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission, did: "Sex discrimination involves treating someone (an applicant or employee) unfavorably because of that person's sex...

The law forbids discrimination when it comes to any aspect of employment, including hiring, firing, pay, job assignments, promotions, layoff, training, fringe benefits, and any other term or condition of employment."[3]

I ask of you to show me the courtesy of not wasting my time if you don't wish to take this seriously.

[0]http://corporate.findlaw.com/law-library/freedom-of-speech-i...

[1]http://codes.findlaw.com/ca/labor-code/lab-sect-1101.html

[2]https://www.eeoc.gov/laws/statutes/titlevii.cfm

[3]https://www.eeoc.gov/laws/types/sex.cfm

Re:Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo by ucaetano on Wednesday August 09, 2017 @12:42AM (#14965602)
I am taking you seriously, and my point is that arguing about how Google could possibly be breaking a law if the judge decides to interpret anything as a political activity doesn't make much sense.

The argument came down to you saying that almost anything is a political activity, and that Google being regulated by the government makes it equivalent to a government entity. No matter how many sources are provided, only one can actually matter: the judge who will decide that.

That's the problem with legal interpretation, until a judge clears it, all discussion is just speculation.

Look at your own points:

> Google is under government regulation. They cannot discriminate against others for their opinions of what they say.

Yes they can.

> Being fired is a societal sanction, a.k.a a limitation on freedom of expression

No, it isn't, your source only talks about a public entity.

> Societal sanction and interference include the loss of one's job

Again, no, it isn't.

And you keep mixing the law of different countries with opinions from the UN. Pick one. You wanna talk about ethics, let's talk about ethics. You wanna talk about laws, let's talk about laws. But stop switching from one to the other whenever your argument has no ground.

It doesn't matter if there was a legal case in Canada, it is completely irrelevant to the case being discussed here. Or even the UN. None of that matters to this context.

So if you really want to cite sources, a decision by a federal judge, the SCOTUS or the NLBR showing that an action by a company that is exactly like Google's falls into illegality will do. Anything else makes no difference here, either requiring your own interpretation, or being foreign to the laws of this country.

Re:Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo by stagbeetle on Wednesday August 09, 2017 @08:38AM (#14967997)
Alright.

> Google is under government regulation. They cannot discriminate against others for their opinions of what they say.

This was a simplified point and I have to apologize for being vague. Google, in certain circumstances covered under the law, cannot discriminate against someone for what they express or what they would otherwise express.

This is shown in under the EEOC links as "illegal to retaliate against employees that speak out against discrimination in the work place." Coincidentally, this is what Damore is suing Google for. Whether he wins or not, I agree, is a fruitless debate in semantics. However, this doesn't change that it is possible he has a case.

> Again, no, it isn't. And you keep mixing the law of different countries with opinions from the UN. Pick one. You wanna talk about laws, let's talk about laws. But stop switching from one to the other whenever your argument has no ground. It doesn't matter if there was a legal case in Canada, it is completely irrelevant to the case being discussed here. Or even the UN. None of that matters to this context.*

This is incorrect and I have to accuse you of not reading the sources I provided you. The legal case in Canada was set as precedent for the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, an international law document, by the UN, which the U.S is a part of and an adopter of said document.

> So if you really want to cite sources, a decision by a federal judge, the SCOTUS or the NLBR showing that an action by a company that is exactly like Google's falls into illegality will do. Anything else makes no difference here, either requiring your own interpretation, or being foreign to the laws of this country.

Exactly is impossible and exactly is not how precedent is set. There are certain actions a company can take, no matter its size or circumstance, that illegal due to precedent. Here is an NLBR ruling against codes of conduct, which Google has violated: http://www.quarles.com/publications/employers-take-note-nlrb...

Re:Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo by ucaetano on Wednesday August 09, 2017 @11:20AM (#14969997)
> Coincidentally, this is what Damore is suing Google for.

Is there a lawsuit already? I can't find any news about it.

> I agree, is a fruitless debate in semantics

That's my point about this discussion, it became about interpretation of laws. We can continue to argue forever here, but ultimately it will be up to the courts, if he pursues legal action, to decide the correct interpretation.

> The legal case in Canada was set as precedent for the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, an international law document, by the UN, which the U.S is a part of and an adopter of said document.

"International law" is a vague term that carries little weight. It has no "law" power unless any country actually formally agrees and implements internal laws with the same effect.

So, again, it carries no weight here.

> There are certain actions a company can take, no matter its size or circumstance, that illegal due to precedent.

That could illegal due to precedent.

> Here is an NLBR ruling against codes of conduct, which Google has violated

Again, you make the claim that Google has violated, with nothing but your opinion to back it.

And from your own source:

A policy that is written in the context of unprotected comments toward coworkers (e.g., unlawfully harassing comments), rather than protected criticism of the employer, will be deemed lawful.

That's what Google claims that the author violated, and apparently was fired for.

Remember, California is an at-will employment state. You can fire someone for ANY reason except a few clearly defined reasons. The burden of proof is on you to show that Google has fired for one of those reasons, not on Google (or me) to show that the firing WASN'T for those reasons.

Google doesn't have to justify a firing at all.

Re:Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo by stagbeetle on Wednesday August 09, 2017 @11:35AM (#14970221)
I see my error. There is little point in continuing since it'll be just opinion.

And a correction on my part, Damore is filing a labor complaint.

Re:Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo by jchrisa on Monday August 07, 2017 @10:30PM (#14953338)
Driving people out of a job is a far cry from jailing them.
Re:Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo by toomuchtodo on Monday August 07, 2017 @10:32PM (#14953356)
Apologies that I did not include "financially cripple/impoverish" in my list.
Re:Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo by remarkEon on Monday August 07, 2017 @11:47PM (#14954001)
This is the most Orwellian thing that has emerged out of all of this, that opinions are "physical" actions. Do you not realize the endstate that line of thinking? Physical reaction in response to opinions.
Re:Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo by jacalata on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @12:42AM (#14954397)
You should look up the doctrine of fighting words.
Re:Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo by Sacho on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @07:38AM (#14956723)
Re:Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo by rtx on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @02:43AM (#14955089)
That sounds like something Tolkien said, "Words have power".
Re:Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo by olewhalehunter on Monday August 07, 2017 @10:45PM (#14953471)
>People are suffering right this second around the world by those that advocate the same thoughts as you are

People suffer for other reasons too though, like societal inaction and economics. Do you hold yourself to the same standard, with your lifestyle choices affecting others as they do, in the same regard that you're holding others for their political ideas? Have you adopted dozens of children from third world countries instead of creating more mouths to feed? Do you ride a horse to work to reduce your climate impact? Have you optimized your entire life for the supremely calculated reduction of suffering? How would such a calculation even be verified correct? Where does that line get drawn in your world? Is it simply on people with philosophies that are convenient for you to criticize to make yourself the superior humanitarian?