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Re:Roman Ruins Found in France Are Called ‘Exceptional’ by hourislate on Friday August 04, 2017 @11:14AM (#14929291)
I find it amazing that you can find Roman mosaics that have survived 2000 years without any significant damage but the tile installation in your bathroom barely last 10-15 years without maintenance or renovation.

In 2000 years they will still be finding Roman Ruins but nothing from the 20 + century will survive.

Re:Roman Ruins Found in France Are Called ‘Exceptional’ by ashark on Friday August 04, 2017 @11:39AM (#14929486)
Modern construction, even when it uses good materials, is shit-tier, (I think) because labor's so expensive.

For a while we lived in an upper-middle-class house (at the time it was built) constructed around the time of WWI. National historic registry, the whole thing, but little reno or updating. The hardwood floors were intact but in terrible shape. Siding probably needed to be replaced. No air conditioning (Iowa, so summers hot enough for at least a month or so that you really want AC) inadequate gas heating, no insulation, etc. Point being that, even when occupied, the house experienced swings between ~55f in the winter and ~100f in the summer.

The remarkable thing? It had incredible woodwork, just... everywhere. Bannisters, fireplaces, big wooden pillars with accompanying massive trim between rooms, everywhere. The doors were all custom built, paneled, and solid wood—they'd be considered top-end luxury today. It'd cost a fortune in material to do that now, the lumber was so good, but the really crazy part? The intricate joins and such were so tight you couldn't fit a piece of paper between them. I mean perfect, despite ~100 years of temperature swings like that. Good freakin' luck finding anyone who can do that today, and if you manage it, good luck finding enough money to pay them to custom-trim an entire house that way. It'd be off-the-charts expensive.

Re:Roman Ruins Found in France Are Called ‘Exceptional’ by lucozade on Friday August 04, 2017 @12:08PM (#14929722)
Indeed. I live in a 1920's built Arts and Crafts style house. We had some carpentry work done a couple of years ago and the chap that did it also happened to specialise in period restoration work for the National Trust. He estimated that it would cost more to replace the downstairs oak paneling and staircase than it would to buy the house and land.

A corollary to the labour cost also seems to be a reduction in high end craft skills. Modern houses don't have the features that require high end skills as they're too expensive so there's less demand for those skills. Another anecdote: it took us ages to find a plasterer who could do the ceiling in one of the bedrooms as the cornering was so complex and most refused to quote. Eventually, one of them put us in contact with a retired gentleman who did the work (at a quite reasonable price considering). Watching him work was amazing.

The only time I recall being more impressed was, many years ago, seeing a spray painter paint a propeller as a template for the robot. It was a bit like watching dancing but to a micron (or so) tolerance. Masterful.

Re:Roman Ruins Found in France Are Called ‘Exceptional’ by lostlogin on Friday August 04, 2017 @04:25PM (#14931922)
Please could you explain the last paragraph a little more?
Re:Roman Ruins Found in France Are Called ‘Exceptional’ by lucozade on Friday August 04, 2017 @05:18PM (#14932368)
Sure. For a while I worked at a company that made props for aircraft and hovercraft. We had a robot arm that painted them. This was about 20 years ago so it was fairly unusual, at least for me as an engineering student.

The problem was that the software for defining the arcs that the paint gun needed to move through was, well, a bit shit. It always produced inconsistent thicknesses.

Obviously, prior to getting the arm, the props were painted by hand. There was this one chap who was just incredible. He'd move his arm in a motion that followed the contours of the prop perfectly but at such a consistent pace that the paint was laid down beautifully. In the end they gave up with the software and just motion captured his arm movements so they could replicate it. It wasn't as good as he was but was close enough.

BTW my job there was to design jigs for a batch of Spitfire blades that they were building. Someone had commissioned new 'planes to go with some Merlins that had been found at Rolls (if I recall correctly). I worked at Dowty who had made the original blades and landing gear so we were making them from the original blueprints. Was a lot of fun.

Re:Roman Ruins Found in France Are Called ‘Exceptional’ by Sleeep on Friday August 04, 2017 @12:43PM (#14929936)
With changing technology, I think we've actually sorta lost a lot of the early methods of construction. The world's last remaining whaling ship the Charles W Morgan, took 7 months to build in 1841 but 5 years to restore in 2008-2013 using the original shipbuilding tools and techniques (when possible).[1] I just imagine the craftspeople restoring the ship were learning the old techniques for the very first time.

Ironically, she was supposedly built to only last 25 years. That might be just an urban legend tho.

[1] https://www.newbedfordguide.com/charles-w-morgan-whaling-shi...

Re:Roman Ruins Found in France Are Called ‘Exceptional’ by eesmith on Friday August 04, 2017 @02:50PM (#14930981)
Another factor is the changed support system.

Story is that once upon a time you could sail a ship into Mariahamn in Åland and be able to hire someone for any position from cabin boy to captain. You can't now - those skills are much more diffuse.

Same thing with steam engines. Used to be you could find a boilermaker locally, because the demand was so high. Or farriers, or wheelwrights, or any of a large number of skills related to horse transport.

Even things like home milk delivery and cloth diaper services are harder to get now than in the 1950s, because improvements in pasteurization and disposable diapers have changed the economics.

If you want a new boiler, or want to hire a sailmaker for canvas, or decide you want to keep your own horse&carriage, you'll find it's harder to do so it now than 100 years ago. Not because we've "sorta lost" those skills but because the support infrastructure has dwindled.

For example, the ship the Götheborg is a replica of an 18th-century Swedish East Indiaman. It uses linen sails instead of hemp, as the original would have, because 1) growing hemp was banned in Sweden in the 1970s, and 2) the Hungarian weaving company they were going to use for the hemp sails went out of business in 2000. The linen sails, btw, were made in the UK.

Of course, 200 years ago it would have been much easier to order hemp sails for an East Indiaman.

Re:Roman Ruins Found in France Are Called ‘Exceptional’ by ceejayoz on Friday August 04, 2017 @01:13PM (#14930164)
> The world's last remaining whaling ship the Charles W Morgan, took 7 months to build in 1841 but 5 years to restore in 2008-2013 using the original shipbuilding tools and techniques (when possible).

I'm not sure that's great evidence.

Working with a historical artifact means you have to be more careful - it's more museum curation than construction. It's also generally slower to take something apart and rebuild it than to just put it together the first time.

Re:Roman Ruins Found in France Are Called ‘Exceptional’ by atmosx on Friday August 04, 2017 @01:37PM (#14930390)
I don't know if it's true but a guide at the Athens museum told us that it is not possible to match sculptures like Venus de Milo or the Caryatids. I am not sure why though. We are more advanced in everything now, but not in sculpture?
Re:Roman Ruins Found in France Are Called ‘Exceptional’ by lostlogin on Friday August 04, 2017 @04:22PM (#14931905)
Last remaining whaling ship? Unfortunately the Japanese whaling factory ships that come done this way are very real.
Re:Roman Ruins Found in France Are Called ‘Exceptional’ by Sleeep on Friday August 04, 2017 @09:53PM (#14933827)
Oh, I'm sorry, I should have been more specific. I meant the old school, obsolete, 19th century-type "golden age of whaling* ships, certainly not contemporary whaling.

In my mind I (rightly or not?) consider that in a different category altogether.

Re:Roman Ruins Found in France Are Called ‘Exceptional’ by tcbawo on Friday August 04, 2017 @11:51AM (#14929590)
From what I understand, a good portion of that woodwork was built on-site as well. The fine trim carpentry and plaster work of past eras was unbelievable. In many older houses, a lot of detailed trim was made from plaster. Prior to the specialization of careers in the modern industrial era, many people dedicated their lifetime to learning these skilled trades. Today, those skills are sadly rare.
Re:Roman Ruins Found in France Are Called ‘Exceptional’ by arstin on Friday August 04, 2017 @12:54PM (#14930019)
I really hope that there will be a shift back to supporting these sorts of skilled trades over the next generations. Is it too wishful to think it might happen as "industrial revolution" style jobs continue automating away and perhaps if UBI can provide a basic net? To some extent we're seeing it emerge already with "millennial artisanal X". Besides providing economic opportunities, this sort of work would also help some with the spiritual malaise which will no doubt continue to spread over the next century.

As software engineers we are blessed with the opportunity for depth in craft much more than most workers nowadays, but we still live a fairly nerveless existence, with the tips of our fingers being just about our only meager contact with the world while the rest of our body atrophies.

I've started learning woodworking with old hand tools, but so far it's just made me appreciate more just how skilled these old woodworkers were.

Re:Roman Ruins Found in France Are Called ‘Exceptional’ by SerLava on Friday August 04, 2017 @11:33AM (#14929445)
Well to be fair, most Roman stuff didn't survive, and plenty of non-steel-reinforced concrete things will last just as long as the Roman stuff.

Often times buildings are disappointingly short lived, but I think sometimes people lament it a little too much. If we need a different building there 50 years later, and we built it to last 200 years, then a lot of material and effort was wasted. There's often a lot of good that comes from knocking a building down and using the limited space for something more useful.

Re:Roman Ruins Found in France Are Called ‘Exceptional’ by kobeya on Friday August 04, 2017 @12:06PM (#14929713)
> and plenty of non-steel-reinforced concrete things will last just as long as the Roman stuff

Not as long as you would think. Non-reinforced concrete only lasts a few generations, whereas there are Roman concrete roads still in (mild, rural) use today.

We actually know why too. Recent science shows that Roman concrete used a slightly different formula that took much longer to set -- weeks or maybe months rather than days. They didn't know how to make fast-setting concrete like we have today. But the length of time also made the structure stronger. We could build that way, if we wanted. But we don't.

Re:Roman Ruins Found in France Are Called ‘Exceptional’ by DoubleCribble on Friday August 04, 2017 @01:02PM (#14930078)
Indeed. One need only look at a few DIY sidewalk repair jobs to see what happens to unreinforced concrete in relatively short order. This article doesn't mention what the usable cure time is, but the magic of Roman cement is that it continues to get harder over centuries.[1]

[1]http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2017/07/why-modern-mortar-cru...

Re:Roman Ruins Found in France Are Called ‘Exceptional’ by lostlogin on Friday August 04, 2017 @04:27PM (#14931941)
Pour it thicker and it lasts one hell of a lot longer. Cheaping out on the volume is a huge part of paths breaking up.
Re:Roman Ruins Found in France Are Called ‘Exceptional’ by sgc on Friday August 04, 2017 @01:54PM (#14930536)
We do for niche uses. Runways, bunkers, etc can have even 2 year curing times to make "hardened concrete", which is up to 7x stronger than the same formulation allowed to dry out instead of keeping it wet for extended curing.
Re:Roman Ruins Found in France Are Called ‘Exceptional’ by wlesieutre on Friday August 04, 2017 @01:12PM (#14930151)
Recent research on Roman concrete, particularly in constructions exposed to seawater: https://phys.org/news/2017-07-ancient-concrete-romans.html
Re:Roman Ruins Found in France Are Called ‘Exceptional’ by Jaruzel on Friday August 04, 2017 @12:04PM (#14929694)
I think you've hit the nail on the head there. Back in Roman times, there were about ~300m people in the known world. That's lots of space to settle into, with a view that you and your descendants will be there for a very long time. They built stuff to _last_, because as far as they were concerned, the Roman Empire was unbeatable, and their dynasties would go on forever.

These days, we're so crammed in where ever there are usable resources, that the moment we die, or move on, someone claims the space and adapts it to their needs. Space is at such a premium that it's illogical to lock it out as one particular usage for centuries.

Re:Roman Ruins Found in France Are Called ‘Exceptional’ by tomrod on Friday August 04, 2017 @04:46PM (#14932101)
This is true in cities perhaps, but there are many lonely places still.
Re:Roman Ruins Found in France Are Called ‘Exceptional’ by bronson on Friday August 04, 2017 @05:01PM (#14932223)
The building (& concrete) is in the cities, not the lonely places.
Re:Roman Ruins Found in France Are Called ‘Exceptional’ by square90 on Friday August 04, 2017 @11:31AM (#14929424)
A little tongue in cheek: but isn't that classic survivorship bias?
Re:Roman Ruins Found in France Are Called ‘Exceptional’ by nkrisc on Friday August 04, 2017 @11:48AM (#14929563)
I believe you're exactly right. The Romans built much more than we can find today. Obviously most of it didn't make it through the last 2,000 years.
Re:Roman Ruins Found in France Are Called ‘Exceptional’ by badloginagain on Friday August 04, 2017 @01:10PM (#14930141)
Except the scale, scope, and quality Roman construction techniques was unparalleled for most regions of the former Roman empire.
Re:Roman Ruins Found in France Are Called ‘Exceptional’ by pm90 on Friday August 04, 2017 @12:53PM (#14930012)
You've got to compare the right things.

Average Romans were probably slaves and, not sure, but probably lived in shanties that definitely don't exist.

The mosaics and stuff that survives today is likely the home of an elite, or some important Government building. So the right comparison would be to, say, Empire State Building.

Re:Roman Ruins Found in France Are Called ‘Exceptional’ by jaclaz on Friday August 04, 2017 @02:06PM (#14930611)
Of course the luxury homes were for an elite, but forget about the "average" Roman being a slave, by definition a Roman was NOT a slave (and a slave by definition not a Roman), actually the Romans were the first to "invent" the figure of the "liberto" (freedman in English):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedman

that - once freed - became a citizen (with some very marginal restrictions).

Re:Roman Ruins Found in France Are Called ‘Exceptional’ by pm90 on Friday August 04, 2017 @02:11PM (#14930643)
I think you're being a little too pedantic. When I said Roman, I meant a person living in the city of Ancient Rome. I deliberately avoided the use of the term citizen.
Re:Roman Ruins Found in France Are Called ‘Exceptional’ by jaclaz on Friday August 04, 2017 @02:28PM (#14930779)
Sorry, if I seemed so, but one of the essential and novel parts of the political organization of Ancient Rome was the "dignity" of citizenship, that was given (with different degrees) to almost everyone, including conquered people:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_citizenship

Re:Roman Ruins Found in France Are Called ‘Exceptional’ by thinkingemote on Friday August 04, 2017 @01:09PM (#14930131)
Using a US analogy I think the right one would be a Plantation owners house.
Re:Roman Ruins Found in France Are Called ‘Exceptional’ by rm_-rf_slash on Friday August 04, 2017 @11:55AM (#14929617)
When I visited Ravenna, I saw some amazing Roman-era mosaics, including an uncensored Christ undergoing baptism. The detail was absolutely spectacular.

Just a few blocks away was a medieval church built hundreds of years later. The mosaics there looked so amateurish that they looked like they were done by children.

Japan has somewhat of an answer to this: every 20 years they tear down the Ise Grand Shrine and build it up again. This allows them to retain specialized construction techniques across generations.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ise_Grand_Shrine

Re:Roman Ruins Found in France Are Called ‘Exceptional’ by adekok on Friday August 04, 2017 @11:36AM (#14929469)
Bury your bathroom floor in 10' of dry dirt, and it will last almost forever.
Re:Roman Ruins Found in France Are Called ‘Exceptional’ by joshuaheard on Friday August 04, 2017 @11:37AM (#14929474)
They didn't use grout in their mosaics, which breaks down over time. Also, most bathrooms today are built on a wood subfloor which would not survive millenia.
Re:Roman Ruins Found in France Are Called ‘Exceptional’ by siphor on Friday August 04, 2017 @12:32PM (#14929877)
According to various rome tours i recently did:

Those tiles aren't surface level like ours are, each spot in the mosaic is more like a rod, and it goes down a couple inches.

Re:Roman Ruins Found in France Are Called ‘Exceptional’ by sgc on Friday August 04, 2017 @01:58PM (#14930559)
Not true. There may be some, but most mosaics use about 7-10mm thick stone tile. I have seen a lot of them... They last because they are covered, and the better preserved are often in dry climates. Archeological sites tend to cover them back up with a layer of gravel to protect them.
Re:Roman Ruins Found in France Are Called ‘Exceptional’ by lostlogin on Friday August 04, 2017 @04:33PM (#14932004)
No, the pieces a mostly cubic. I dug heaps out the ground near Swindon. A big pipeline was going in and a ruined villa was near it. After a month of digging we were told to grab anything we wanted as it would be trashed in the morning. I got a few mosaic squares, a nail and a cow tooth.
Re:Roman Ruins Found in France Are Called ‘Exceptional’ by kakwa_ on Friday August 04, 2017 @02:49PM (#14930964)
To be fair, rare are the roman buildings that survived in good condition.

There are some beautiful counter examples, like for example the Rome Pantheon, but this building, being converted as a church, as been correctly maintained most of the time up to now.

Long standing (and sometimes beautiful) structures are still up because of proper maintenance, they can endure some kind of neglect for a few decades, but not a lot more. Maintenance is the key. (an even bigger example that comes to my mind is Hagia Sophia, which, in spit of being in a seismic area and being quite tall, is still standing today after ~1500 years).

As for the ruins, given the proper conditions, even your shitty bathroom can be preserved. Maybe not yours specifically, but one of the millions others like yours. Keep in mind that the Roman Empire spanned across most of southern Europe, the middle east and North Africa, that multiplies the "proper conditions" opportunities.

Re:Roman Ruins Found in France Are Called ‘Exceptional’ by weberc2 on Friday August 04, 2017 @11:30AM (#14929418)
According to the article, you just need to burn your home down.
Re:Roman Ruins Found in France Are Called ‘Exceptional’ by x220 on Friday August 04, 2017 @07:53PM (#14933341)
brb
Re:Roman Ruins Found in France Are Called ‘Exceptional’ by simias on Friday August 04, 2017 @12:00PM (#14929662)
You use your bathroom daily (I hope!), those mosaics were protected by a think layer of dirt. So I guess the trick is to stop washing your bathroom! And of course as others mention there's a heavy survivor bias at play.
Re:Roman Ruins Found in France Are Called ‘Exceptional’ by pjc50 on Friday August 04, 2017 @11:39AM (#14929495)
> nothing from the 20 + century will survive

Several nuclear waste containment structures are planned with that kind of lifetime. They have to be.

Re:Roman Ruins Found in France Are Called ‘Exceptional’ by ocschwar on Friday August 04, 2017 @12:02PM (#14929679)
Their survivorship, however, is mostly designed to come from mother nature, not from craftsmanship.
Re:Roman Ruins Found in France Are Called ‘Exceptional’ by wildmusings on Friday August 04, 2017 @12:43PM (#14929933)
This might be a good thing, even beyond cost considerations. Nowadays, if a building doesn't fall on its own, good luck tearing it down to make space for something more useful. Getting buildings registered as "historic" has become a favorite (and highly successful) tactic of the anti-development crowd.
Re:Roman Ruins Found in France Are Called ‘Exceptional’ by whipoodle on Friday August 04, 2017 @11:36AM (#14929470)
Don't be so pessimistic! Our prisons will probably survive.