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Re:Seeing AI for iOS by nharada on Friday July 14, 2017 @10:32PM (#14774752)
Yes, YES, this is what I'm talking about Microsoft. I'm surprised how muted the reaction is from HN here.

On the technical side, this is a perfect example of how AI can be used effectively, and is a (very obvious in hindsight) application of the cutting edge in scene understanding and HCI. There are quite a few recent and advanced techniques rolled into one product here, and although I haven't tried it out yet it seems fairly polished from the video. A whitepaper of how this works from the technical side would be fascinating, because even though I'm familiar with the relevant papers it's a long jump between the papers and this product.

On the social side, I think this is a commendable effort, and a fairly low hanging fruit to demonstrate the positive power of new ML techniques. On a site where every other AI article is full of comments (somewhat rightfully) despairing about the negative social aspects of AI and the associated large scale data collection, we should be excited about a tool that exists to improve lives most of us don't even realize need improving. This is the kind of thing I hope can inspire more developers to take the reins on beneficial AI applications.

Re:Seeing AI for iOS by ezequiel-garzon on Saturday July 15, 2017 @12:33AM (#14775043)
Also on the technical side, the fact that Microsoft (Microsoft!) is releasing an iOS-only app, even if it comes from its research department, is maybe more shocking than its open-source releases of late. Who are you, Microsoft?!
Re:Seeing AI for iOS by taspeotis on Saturday July 15, 2017 @12:38AM (#14775057)
It makes sense to start with iOS anyway, it's known for having great accessibility. A lot of people with accessibility needs use iOS for that reason.
Re:Seeing AI for iOS by jdietrich on Saturday July 15, 2017 @07:37AM (#14776161)
Yep. The iPhone has close to 100% market share among visually impaired users, because the accessibility features are so far in advance of Android. Google have been playing catch-up for years, but they just don't have the obsessive single-minded focus on UI that Apple are famous/notorious for.

When the iPhone originally launched, blindness charities were protesting that the touch screen interface would exclude visually impaired users. Less than a year later, the iPhone was being hailed as one of the greatest advances for visually impaired people since braille. Say what you like about Jobs and Ive, but they set the bar for accessibility.

Re:Seeing AI for iOS by on_and_off on Saturday July 15, 2017 @12:03PM (#14777330)
I agree that Google has not been focusing on accessibility at first, but what is missing from the last version of Android compared to iOS ?
Re:Seeing AI for iOS by jdietrich on Saturday July 15, 2017 @06:14PM (#14779305)
At this stage it's a long list of small details rather than any specific feature. Apple place an extremely high value on UI consistency, which is disproportionately important for visually impaired users. Accessibility is an intrinsic part of their design culture, rather than something they retrofit on later. Subtle things like menu items being in a logical order make a really big difference when you rely on a screenreader. Apple also work far harder to promote and support accessibility for third-party developers. Accessibility is always a major focus at WWDC and is deeply woven into the Human Interface Guidelines. UIKit is highly accessible by default.

By way of metaphor: Visually impaired people need to be extremely neat and tidy, because they can't easily navigate a messy environment. If you don't put things back on the shelves in exactly the same place every time, you're in deep trouble. Google have a really poor track record of putting things in the same place every time.

For users with other accessibility needs, the size and consistency of the iOS ecosystem is often crucial. iOS gets all the good apps and peripherals first, because it's a much easier development target.

Re:Seeing AI for iOS by on_and_off on Saturday July 15, 2017 @07:28PM (#14779690)
> because it's a much easier development target.

Lol

No it is not

Re:Seeing AI for iOS by binarycrusader on Saturday July 15, 2017 @05:28PM (#14779060)
A device that doesn't have to be replaced every 18 months since that's the only period of official upgrade support?

(Said as a former nexus 5 owner)

Re:Seeing AI for iOS by dna_polymerase on Saturday July 15, 2017 @06:53AM (#14776049)
Re:Seeing AI for iOS by hackpert on Saturday July 15, 2017 @06:35PM (#14779423)
In addition to the brilliant accessibility features, there's a limited set of devices running iOS, all with known camera specs and picture quality, which can definitely help in maintaining some consistency in results by reducing variation in input.
Re:Seeing AI for iOS by reitanqild on Saturday July 15, 2017 @05:58AM (#14775900)
Also rumours has it that Apple punishes you in the app store if you launch on Android first.
Re:Seeing AI for iOS by pmarreck on Saturday July 15, 2017 @09:02AM (#14776439)
I just used my best google-fu and can find no evidence for this. If you're going to make controversial claims like that in the future, include a link to the evidence or you will mostly just end up spreading FUD.
Re:Seeing AI for iOS by reitanqild on Saturday July 15, 2017 @10:05AM (#14776654)
Upvoted you. Couldn't find it either. Think it was in a checklist I read once.
Re:Seeing AI for iOS by pmarreck on Saturday July 15, 2017 @11:10AM (#14777025)
It's missing because Apple took it down wherever it was, obviously.

/conspiracyfallacysarcasm :)

Re:Seeing AI for iOS by bobsam on Saturday July 15, 2017 @12:33PM (#14777488)
I think @rustyshelf has removed the most salty posts, but the bulk of the story is still somewhere in their blog:

https://blog.shiftyjelly.com

Re:Seeing AI for iOS by mtgx on Saturday July 15, 2017 @06:39AM (#14776007)
Sounds like FUD.
Re:Seeing AI for iOS by bostand on Saturday July 15, 2017 @06:52AM (#14776045)
Its not. Developers of a famous podcast app have a number of long posts about this subject.

Also, Apple will ban your app if it has the word "android" anywhere in it.

Re:Seeing AI for iOS by pmarreck on Saturday July 15, 2017 @09:04AM (#14776441)
So a single app developer experienced unknown delays and attributed that to the fact that they launched on Android first... How's that anecdotal evidence going?
Re:Seeing AI for iOS by ClassyJacket on Saturday July 15, 2017 @09:24AM (#14776504)
I'm sure the part about Apple punishing you for launching on Android first is rubbish, but the second claim is true - App Store rules are that you can't mention the word 'Android'.

Rule 2.3.1:

"don’t include names, icons, or imagery of other mobile platforms in your app or metadata"

And here is a case where they actually enforced it:

http://bgr.com/2015/05/21/app-store-rejection-android-ios/

Re:Seeing AI for iOS by pmarreck on Saturday July 15, 2017 @09:33AM (#14776542)
OK so one datapoint! But not to the most controversial claim.
Re:Seeing AI for iOS by allover on Saturday July 15, 2017 @07:17AM (#14776105)
> Developers of a famous podcast app have a number of long posts about this subject.

Do you have a link?

Re:Seeing AI for iOS by mekazu on Saturday July 15, 2017 @10:34AM (#14776816)
Nope, the company is called shifty jelly. They've still got other iOS apps though so it wouldn't surprise if they were taken down.
Re:Seeing AI for iOS by allover on Saturday July 15, 2017 @11:53AM (#14777261)
Ah the company behind Pocket Casts (love that app). Well I searched through their blog and could only find Amazon App Store drama.

I'm going to assume the original statement is FUD as accused. It does seem incredibly unlikely a dev could draw such a link even if Apple were doing that kind of penalisation (which makes literally no sense to me).

Re:Seeing AI for iOS by bobsam on Saturday July 15, 2017 @12:48PM (#14777559)
Re:Seeing AI for iOS by allover on Saturday July 15, 2017 @02:13PM (#14778055)
Could you point to where in the episode the 'Apple punishes if you're in the Android app store first' idea is covered?

(I'll probably listen anyway since I like those guys, but still ...)

Re:Seeing AI for iOS by bobsam on Saturday July 15, 2017 @02:26PM (#14778131)
My headphones are out of juice so you have settle for this summary:

> Coincidentally, Russell Ivanovic is a case in point for what could happen if you defy Apple and launch on Android first. Ivanovic had initially been very lucky to have been assigned an Apple Developer Relations representative who gave him exclusive promotional opportunities. Few developers get assigned these representatives. Among the benefits Ivanovic received was the privilege to have Shifty Jelly's apps preloaded on iPads in Apple stores in Australia, a major marketing boost.

> Things went south In 2012, when Ivanovic launched a new version of the Pocket Casts app on the Android Play Store first, rather than Apple's App Store. The launch was a real success, and he publicly shared the good news. Before he knew it, his Apple Developer Relations representative stopped all contact. The representative would not even answer his emails. Ivanovic had been completely shut out.

Source: http://www.elischiff.com/blog/2015/3/24/fear-of-apple

Re:Seeing AI for iOS by allover on Saturday July 15, 2017 @02:44PM (#14778211)
Ah okay, so at most it's a withdrawal of special treatment, NOT punishing a regular app's position in the app store because they launched in the Android store first, which was how the original accusation sounded.

But thanks for the info, I can see it certainly would stink to be treated that way, losing your benefits and being ignored by your contact.

Re:Seeing AI for iOS by bobsam on Saturday July 15, 2017 @02:53PM (#14778274)
These guys were on the featured list and showcased in apple commercials before they were suddenly dropped.

I am not sure if this is "withdrawal of special treatment". These guys made great ios apps, both before and after they started making Android apps.

Re:Seeing AI for iOS by allover on Saturday July 15, 2017 @03:29PM (#14778464)
The sections you quoted specifically mention special privileges (and that the Dev Rel representative thing is rare).

And it was those things which they lost right, rather than some kind of search position punishment?

Re:Seeing AI for iOS by pmarreck on Saturday July 15, 2017 @08:58AM (#14776429)
Didn't they release an iOS-only photo app years ago that was also very clever? IIRC it collated thousands of user photos of a single piece of architecture into a 3D model or something

Edit: Just checked App Store. Microsoft has literally hundreds of apps on there. You should probably go look. But I can't find the app I'm talking about lol

EDIT 2: Found a story on it! 11 years ago!! https://arstechnica.com/uncategorized/2006/07/7381/

It was called Photosynth and it seems to have disappeared from the Internet :(

EDIT 3: crap they just shut it down THIS YEAR! https://blogs.msdn.microsoft.com/photosynth/2017/02/06/micro... It was cool as hell!

Re:Seeing AI for iOS by rainbowmverse on Saturday July 15, 2017 @09:47AM (#14776590)
Sometimes the good bits of their research projects get rolled into others. https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/research/product/computation...
Re:Seeing AI for iOS by pmarreck on Saturday July 15, 2017 @11:15AM (#14777044)
Nice.

Found a 10 year old demo of PhotoSynth here: https://www.ted.com/talks/blaise_aguera_y_arcas_demos_photos...

Re:Seeing AI for iOS by achamayou on Saturday July 15, 2017 @05:42AM (#14775853)
With Windows Phone out of the picture, it's either that or Android. iOS is probably an easier first target (less hardware and software variety).
Re:Seeing AI for iOS by pjmlp on Saturday July 15, 2017 @10:57AM (#14776942)
It also helps that iOS is more welcoming to C++ devs than Android, although they might be using something else like Xamarin.
Re:Seeing AI for iOS by Hex-3-En on Saturday July 15, 2017 @09:18AM (#14776492)
To be honest I guess it's most likely a combiation of their bing speech and vision apis, so as there are android sdks for all of them, you could easily reproduce this as an android app.
Re:Seeing AI for iOS by 52-6F-62 on Friday July 14, 2017 @10:47PM (#14774798)
Low hanging fruit or not, this is the kind of effort that will sway public opinion.

This is the direction that needs to be undertaken with as much or more fervour than business automation applications.

I'm inspired!

Re:Seeing AI for iOS by doomlaser on Saturday July 15, 2017 @12:31AM (#14775034)
These are all definitely applications of ML we've seen around in different places, but this is the first package I've seen to put them together in an integrated way on a smartphone.

I'm also impressed with Microsoft's effort here. It looks pretty nice, especially the different 'channels' metaphor for the various ML processing tasks (Scene, barcode, people, short text etc) for the visually impaired.

Re:Seeing AI for iOS by mishurov on Saturday July 15, 2017 @12:44AM (#14775071)
I'd rather say that machine learning is an application of mathematical statistics.
Re:Seeing AI for iOS by hacker_9 on Saturday July 15, 2017 @05:57AM (#14775896)
> it seems fairly polished from the video

Reminder: This is a Microsoft marketing video, they are never like the actual product. See Kinect and Hololens teasers for more.

Re:Seeing AI for iOS by bhnmmhmd on Saturday July 15, 2017 @03:47PM (#14778548)
I have a technical question here: Can this be called a true AI? Because as far as I'm concerned, most companies just use AI and ML interchangeably. I guess these are only applied AI tailored to do a plethora of tasks, but at the end of the day, they're not conscious and aware of their existence.
Re:Seeing AI for iOS by NicoJuicy on Sunday July 16, 2017 @08:45AM (#14781753)
Part of the techniques seem to come from 'office lens' app of Microsoft. It takes pictures of documents and positions them