News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Despite money and effort, homelessness in SF as bad as ever by rsj_hn on Tuesday June 27, 2017 @11:39PM (#14651539)
It's nice that you've took an actual college class on homelessness. I've logged about 10 years in volunteering for programs to feed the homeless, and have shared my home with homeless people for almost 7 years (until I stopped). I've talked to many, many homeless people and every single one of them could have stayed in a shelter but chose not to because of the restrictions on personal freedom. Every single one had some sort of serious mental issue, often compounded by physical disabilities, and was simply unable to care for themselves. Every single one had serious attitude problems to where they basically gave up on trying to make it in this society.

Here, I am talking about the chronic homeless, which are the root of the problem. Not families that may need to sleep in the car because they are in between housing or people crashing on couches while they straighten themselves out. I mean people with tents.

The one person I knew the longest was basically camping out around Palo Alto. The reason why you don't see so many homeless in the suburbs is because the Police are fairly effective at driving them out with beatdowns and destroying their property. This is the reality of not forcing them into group living situations -- let them live on the streets creating a lot of quality of life issues or have an unspoken policy of police brutality. So I would say that what we have now is dystopian.

The last homeless man I let live with me I ended up asking to leave, because he was unable to keep steady work. I just asked him to do something, anything -- it didn't have to be full time -- and he could keep the money himself. But he was able bodied and needed to work. I drove him to his job. At the end of the day, he was pretty blunt in telling me that at his age -- he was in his 50s -- he couldn't stand doing menial work and being ordered around by some kid. For him, it was either a high paying job or camping out. So I finally asked him to leave and he's been camping out (assuming he's still alive at this point -- it's been a while).

I think it's cute you took a college class and now understand the issue. But housing costs have nothing to do it. You can today find a place to live in the U.S. for a few hundred a month. No, not in San Francisco or Manhattan or Monaco, but most of the country is incredibly cheap.

Look at rent prices in the middle of the country. For example, in Phoenix, real rental costs have not increased for 30 years. They've been basically flat. But in Phoenix, the homeless don't have the same access to city services as in San Francisco, or NYC.

Re:Despite money and effort, homelessness in SF as bad as ever by Mz on Wednesday June 28, 2017 @01:52PM (#14656471)
I have been homeless 5.5 years. I have a chronic illness and two special needs sons that are on the street with me.

We are getting healthier and I have been paying down debt. My student loan was paid off just days ago and things will start getting better for me in July because of that. In fact, they have been getting gradually, slowly better the entire time I have been on the street.

I am author of the San Diego Homeless Survival Guide. I have been interviewed by reporters on 3 different occasions because of it, though, so far, none of that has resulted in a published article promoting my work.

The class I took involved an internship in a homeless shelter in Vacaville and I continued to do volunteer work there after the class ended. I was instrumental in getting them a proper website set up.

http://micheleincalifornia.blogspot.com/2017/05/how-to-effec...

http://sandiegohomelesssurvivalguide.blogspot.com/

I am sorry you are bitter and were never able to figure out how to effectively help people solve the root causes of homelessness in their lives. That is not evidence that I am clueless.

Re:Despite money and effort, homelessness in SF as bad as ever by rsj_hn on Wednesday June 28, 2017 @08:18PM (#14659758)
I am not bitter, but I have come to some realizations over the years, one of which is that society, in order to provide us with benefits such as division of labor and higher density living, also comes with obligations, such as paying taxes, obeying zoning laws, not being loud after a certain time, and yes, not sleeping on the street. I knew a woman who had problems with screaming and she ultimately got evicted and became homeless because she couldn't stop shrieking at night. She never understood why "being loud" -- such a simple and benign thing -- was enough to ruin her life. And yet it did, because people need to be able to sleep at night, and there are rules for high density living. People will call the cops, landlords will send notices and ultimately evict you for quality of life issues like shouting at night, if you do it all the time and refuse to get the help needed in order to stop.

There is a very small percentage -- basically 0.03% of the population are chronically homeless -- that are unable or unwilling to meet their obligations. There will always be some Bartlebys with us, who when presented with their obligations as members of a community respond with "I prefer not to". I prefer not to live in the shelter because it's unpleasant. I prefer not to move to where housing is cheaper because this is my home. I prefer not to live in a supervised environment because I like being in control of my life. I prefer not to take this medication that will stop me from screaming because I don't like how tired it makes me feel. And with these Bartlebys the choices are prison, banishment, and forced compliance -- institutionalization. Because a society is not a collection of isolated individuals, it's a web of obligations that are, at heart, mandatory. Some people view this as a dystopian nightmare. They are naive. It is living in a rooted world. From the beginning of civilization if you did not meet the obligations placed on you, the society expelled you, whether by death or banishment. What I don't understand is why people who have no problem enforcing laws banning camping in national parks or forcing people to pay taxes under threat of jail are unwilling to ban camping on the street in a high density city. If you want a nature preserve or other area outside of society in which all the individuals who are unable to comply with our rules can do whatever they want, that's fine. But you will find that with enough people filling up that area, a government will form, a society will form, and you will be back in trouble if you start violating the new expectations placed on you in that new society.

Re:Despite money and effort, homelessness in SF as bad as ever by Mz on Wednesday June 28, 2017 @08:38PM (#14659828)
If you aren't bitter, then why the ugly comments like saying "It's cute" that I have taken a class on homelessness and public policy? (That's a rhetorical question. Given your lack of apology, I am not expecting a meaningful answer to it. Consider it food for thought.)

I don't disagree that we shouldn't allow people who are homeless to camp openly on city streets and generally be a public nuisance. I don't do either of those things, so I don't believe it is a given that being homeless must equate to such behavior.

Historically, the more desperately that governments try to control people, the more people find ways around it. This is the origin of Martial Arts. Governments denied the peasants access to weapons, so they learned to use their hands and feet and farming tools as lethal weapons. You couldn't reasonably deny them those things. They needed them in order to produce food for the nation.

I don't agree that imprisoning all homeless people merely for being poor is at all a humane solution. I also don't agree with general trends towards criminalizing behaviors in such a way as to be a kind of Jim Crow law for homeless people. You don't solve this problem by trying to get them to just leave your city and go elsewhere. All that does is shift it around. It doesn't get people off the street.

There is a tremendous housing crisis going on in the U.S. today. Evictions are at very high rates and young people are basically expected to live with roommates because there are almost no spaces suitable for a single, young person to live alone, like there once were. Returning to historical practices of making market rate housing available that single young people can afford on an entry level salary will not solve homelessness, but it will take some of the pressure off.

Homelessness occurs when someone has more problems than solutions. The more solutions we can make available, the more feasible it is for people to make their lives work, even if they have serious personal problems for which there are no ready solutions.

I was born with my medical condition. For many years, I was a full time wife and mom. This gave me a middle class role in society, even though I was actually too sick to hold down a paid position. At some point, I expect to return to a more conventional life. My condition is not curable, but that doesn't mean my life cannot be made to work. It did in the past. It will again in the future, at some point. As the number of problems I have shrinks and the number of solutions I have grows, at some point, it will cross some tipping point.

Let me stop here and thank you for being so generous for a decade of your life. I am sorry it has made you so very cynical. But I don't think your cynicism is actual evidence that more affordable housing cannot play a role in helping get this problem under control.

Re:Despite money and effort, homelessness in SF as bad as ever by adamredwoods on Wednesday June 28, 2017 @04:19AM (#14652512)
It's not that simple to move. People are more comfortable with the devil they know than the devil they don't know.
Re:Despite money and effort, homelessness in SF as bad as ever by dredmorbius on Wednesday June 28, 2017 @12:17AM (#14651653)
FYI, Mz also claims a certain level of direct and personal experience with the problem.

You might focus more on what you're sure you know, and not what you think someone else does, doesn't, or ought.

Re:Despite money and effort, homelessness in SF as bad as ever by nickthemagicman on Wednesday June 28, 2017 @01:44AM (#14651964)
It's true. Homeless people have no money. The difference between 200 and 2000 a month doesn't matter, they can't afford either.
Re:Despite money and effort, homelessness in SF as bad as ever by Mz on Wednesday June 28, 2017 @02:03PM (#14656604)
This is not true. Some homeless people have no money. Others have a social security check and nothing else or a military retirement check and nothing else. Some even have jobs. For people like me, if we could find a decent (not hell hole) place for $200, that would absolutely get us off the street.

I could afford about $400 a month in the near future. I am trying to find a way to get off the street now that my student loan is paid off and that frees up enough money where I could afford that much for shelter in the near future.

Re:Despite money and effort, homelessness in SF as bad as ever by nickthemagicman on Wednesday June 28, 2017 @09:04PM (#14659942)
Not trying to be critical or anything just curious. Why not get like a Van with a 300 dollar note? At least you have shelter and can park near city services.
Re:Despite money and effort, homelessness in SF as bad as ever by Mz on Wednesday June 28, 2017 @09:07PM (#14659960)
I'm sure you mean well, but one-off comments from internet strangers are not going to solve my problems. I am solving them. It is just much slower than I would like. I did not comment on my situation in order to solicit advice. I did so in order to make it clear what the basis of my opinions are.
Re:Despite money and effort, homelessness in SF as bad as ever by nickthemagicman on Thursday June 29, 2017 @07:36PM (#14667689)
No man I hear you about the homeless who have potential like yourself. Homelessness is a huge trap. I mean I feel like simply providing showers and some sort of basic amenities to help the homeless who are trying to work their way out of it would help enourmously.

But these homeless programs that just keep the homeless subsisting are better than nothing but sill aren't helping the ones who could escape.

Re:Despite money and effort, homelessness in SF as bad as ever by Mz on Thursday June 29, 2017 @07:39PM (#14667706)
I only went to homeless services when I was truly destitute for basically the first six months. If I can find another solution, I do. Most homeless services are incredibly crappy and often counterproductive.
Re:Despite money and effort, homelessness in SF as bad as ever by nickthemagicman on Friday June 30, 2017 @12:02PM (#14671578)
I'm with you. I've been homeless before. I would never use a shelter. But if there had been free showers I would have used them lol. I had to use the shower bus riding around SF. Also, if there had been free toothpaste and soap that would have been nice.
Re:Despite money and effort, homelessness in SF as bad as ever by Mz on Friday June 30, 2017 @01:21PM (#14672188)
Sorry, I mistook your original query. It was amongst a bunch of such comments and some seemed to not be getting made in good faith.

The super short version is that I don't want to live in a van because I no longer drive due to my medical condition. There are other factors, but that's a big one.

[dead]
Re:Despite money and effort, homelessness in SF as bad as ever by dang on Wednesday June 28, 2017 @04:36PM (#14658116)
Since you used the word respectful I'll assume that your intent was respectful, but please don't post comments like this to HN.

Unsolicited personal commentary or life advice quickly crosses into incivility. Your comment is way into the red on that. Even if you don't mean such comments as personal attacks, they easily read like it—because of the underlying assumption that you know better about someone else's life than they do—and will almost certainly will land that way with the person(s) whose life you're prescribing. That's bad and leads to worse, so we should all just not do it.

Re:Despite money and effort, homelessness in SF as bad as ever by masonic on Wednesday June 28, 2017 @04:14PM (#14657876)
What percentage of homeless adults spend less than $200/month on drugs? (including alcohol and tobacco, excluding prescription meds)
Re:Despite money and effort, homelessness in SF as bad as ever by exolymph on Wednesday June 28, 2017 @04:04AM (#14652457)
Your knowledge, persoective, and experience are valuable. Overall I appreciate this comment. But condescending to someone who disagreed with you is uncalled for and detracts from the rest of what you're saying.
[dead]
Re:Despite money and effort, homelessness in SF as bad as ever by Mz on Wednesday June 28, 2017 @01:23PM (#14656125)
I'm 52, not 25. That class involved an internship at a homeless center. I did additional volunteer work there after my internship ended. I have been homeless for 5.5 years and I run at least two pertinent websites.

I took that class because I was pursuing a BS in Environmental Resource Management with a concentration in Housing. It was intended as preparation for a Masters in Urban Planning. I was studying in earnest to make a career of solving housing issues. I also have an Certificate in GIS, the equivalent of master's level work.

Contempt and condescension don't belong on Hacker News.