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Re:Alone on the Open Road: Truckers Feel Like ‘Throwaway Peo... by wehadfun on Monday May 22, 2017 @02:49PM (#14395991)
Brother did this. The bad part about the job, as noted in the article, is the way the pay works. If the truck is not moving the driver is not getting paid. Stuck in traffic? Not paid, Takes a day to load your truck, no paid. Take a day to unload truck, not paid. Truckers sit for hours doing nothing and not getting paid. Sometimes trucks have to wait a day or two just to be assigned a load. Not paid.
Re:Alone on the Open Road: Truckers Feel Like ‘Throwaway Peo... by abtinf on Monday May 22, 2017 @04:43PM (#14396790)
I've met a number of people working in various piece work [1] industries and I make it a point to ask them about their view of payments and how their work effort correlates with payment.

What I've found is that with near certainty, these individuals suffer from a kind of economic myopia. They view every aspect of their work as something though should be charged for and they complain about every little bit they aren't paid for separately. They are almost never open to the idea that it doesn't matter how much they get paid for each action; what matters is their total income. They view anything they don't charge for as money that rightfully belongs to them.

Note that this is not about education level either. Easily, the single most vocal group about piece work payments are the medical doctors I've talked to. I've met multiple doctors who think they should be able to bill for each question asked during a visit that concerns a different medical topic, and some go so far as to demand the patient leave and book a subsequent 15 minute appointment before they will discuss it.

Edit: I'm not saying anything about how much truckers, or any other profession, should be paid. Instead, piece work professions would be better served (and would avoid potentially disastrous financial outcomes) by evaluating their business in terms of overall profitability. For example, drivers might negotiate a higher price per mile, but if one of the aspects the parent mentioned changes significantly (load/unload time, traffic conditions in a geograph), they should turn down the work or start transitioning to a new occupation.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piece_work

Re:Alone on the Open Road: Truckers Feel Like ‘Throwaway Peo... by ethbro on Monday May 22, 2017 @05:46PM (#14397192)
As someone with truckers in the family, and who discusses it frequently with them, their biggest problems with the 14 hour rules are twofold.

(1) It's immutable, and squeezes them between their dispatchers (who schedule them for 11 hour drives) and remaining legal. If you're running a day load (far better quality of life), then if you hit traffic you're spending the night on the road in your truck, parked wherever you happened to hit the time limit. There's no individual flexibility in terms of "I'll drive less tomorrow to make up for it."

(2) Removal of individual agency. Imagine if someone showed up at your desk and told you that you couldn't write any more code because you'd already been coding X hours. Doesn't matter you were on a roll. Doesn't matter that the past 4 hours were lightweight commenting and code formatting. Doesn't matter you were in the middle of writing a solution that finally occurred to you. Just is. Oh, and here's a $500 DOT ticket for trying to jot down some code notes to yourself to salvage your work.

I hear and agree that some people feel entitled to bill counter to market. But IMHO the combination of a per-mile-rate, dispatcher-driven scheduling, and absolute regulation is pretty sadistic to truckers.

There's a lot more friendly ways the legislation could have been written: work hour cap per week, different classes of CDL / experience levels mean different caps, etc.

Re:Alone on the Open Road: Truckers Feel Like ‘Throwaway Peo... by InitialLastName on Monday May 22, 2017 @06:46PM (#14397483)
> Imagine if someone showed up at your desk and told you that you couldn't write any more code because you'd already been coding X hours.

If there were a decent moment-to-moment shot of somebody dying because I was coding tired (rather than a future chance with a barrier of code reviews), it would be totally reasonable to put a really sharp barrier on reducing that risk.

Re:Alone on the Open Road: Truckers Feel Like ‘Throwaway Peo... by ethbro on Tuesday May 23, 2017 @08:41AM (#14400666)
Here's the problem I have with that line of logic: a huge number of trucking accidents are caused by non-trucking road traffic they have to share the road with.

Which is completely unregulated with anything like the same strictness.

I can only speak to the day trip side, not long-haul multi-day freight. But based on annectdotes, I would say there's (on average) at least one incident per month per driver where the truck has to be driven off the road to avoid a collision with physics-ignorant non-trucking traffic.

A friend of a friend was involved in an older lady's death after she pulled out right in front of him (as in, "even the brakes can't slow a truck down that fast" close). Of course he survived in the larger vehicle, but now he has that on his conscience.

I don't dispute that freight trucks are dangerous vehicles. But generally speaking, their drivers are far more experienced than you or I - they should be, they do it every day.

Re:Alone on the Open Road: Truckers Feel Like ‘Throwaway Peo... by InitialLastName on Tuesday May 23, 2017 @08:46AM (#14400678)
That's all fair, and I don't blame truckers for the accidents caused by others. That doesn't change that they have a job involving long stretches of boredom punctuated by very rare, high-stakes, split-second reaction moments, so they shouldn't be allowed to operate past a certain point of fatigue.
Re:Alone on the Open Road: Truckers Feel Like ‘Throwaway Peo... by ethbro on Tuesday May 23, 2017 @12:56PM (#14402884)
I peeked at some statistics, and it looks like there were around 4,000 fatalities involving large trucks. Out of (I'm assuming this includes commercial vehicles) 35,000 total vehicle fatalities.

11% is not nothing, but it's also not the 89% chunk.

Long stretches of boredom punctuated by split-second reaction moments also describes my driving... and I can do that in anything 5 tons or under without any sort of regulation (except a passed driver's license test some number of years ago).

Re:Alone on the Open Road: Truckers Feel Like ‘Throwaway Peo... by Spooky23 on Monday May 22, 2017 @11:47PM (#14398665)
The lack of perspective of this comment is amazing. My brother is a DOT guy who regulates this stuff.

Their freedom is restricted because given the choice of pissing off the boss and putting people at risk, drivers and companies often choose the later.

My brother almost got hit by a semi at a weigh station when it took too long too stop -- because only one brake was functioning. He stopped a Chinatown bus venting exhaust into the cabin, also brakes were on fire. Another time they caught a guy who drove straight through from San Diego to Syracuse on amphetemine.

The regulations are there to protect the driving public. Violators are actively policed, and companies who break the rules get shut down.

Re:Alone on the Open Road: Truckers Feel Like ‘Throwaway Peo... by ethbro on Tuesday May 23, 2017 @08:58AM (#14400744)
See my comment above for some of my general problems with trucking vs non-trucking regulation.

To your specific points, the company and drivers' interests usually aren't in lockstep.

Unfortunately, the company usually has the power. Correct me if I'm wrong on some of the details here.

But when a driver's in another city and picks up a trailer that's been overloaded, or one with bad tires or faulty brakes, if they choose to pull it then they're the one that gets nailed with the DOT ticket. Correct?

I know some trucking companies have reimbursement policies, but that seems like a really perverse incentive structure. Why not find out who the driver is contracted to for the load & fine the hell out of them? It's their trailer after all!

My problem isn't that there's regulation. It's that some pieces (like the above, and the absolute cutoff times for logbooks) seems like it was designed by someone who wasn't overly burdened with imagination, empathy, or an inkling of game theory.

(And on the driver-vs-company fines, I'm basing my guess on most of them accruing against the driver by the fact that trucking companies generally seem to be pushing drivers to make the shady choices)

Re:Alone on the Open Road: Truckers Feel Like ‘Throwaway Peo... by Spooky23 on Tuesday May 23, 2017 @09:48AM (#14401122)
I'm not sure of the mechanics of the process, but the regulators know that the drivers are in the middle and they definitely target bad carriers when they can. There's a lot of gaps between what is state regulated and what is federally regulated, and shitty carriers know how to skirt enforcement by basing in low-regulation states and using the best trucks for the longer routes that are federally regulated.

The driver shares responsibility. If a trailer is overloaded and has bald tires and brakes, he shouldn't pick it up. The driver has a strong incentive to tow the line as his CDL is his livelihood, and serious violations can affect that. (In addition to his life.)

The problem is that the carrier may or may not care and most drivers have little leverage. My uncle was a teamster driver. If he showed up to pick up a load and it was overloaded or unsafe, he'd go to the dock master, tell him to get the overload off the trailer and refuse to pick up. If you work for JimBob Trucking from Alabama, you may be on your own.

As for the inflexibility -- you need to be inflexible sometimes. You don't need game theory to state that trucks must have brakes, or that drivers must sleep. The fact is that a human's performance of occupational tasks diminishes as you stay awake. If someone is up for 17 hours, they will perform as if they are drunk.

Re:Alone on the Open Road: Truckers Feel Like ‘Throwaway Peo... by ethbro on Tuesday May 23, 2017 @12:46PM (#14402786)
It's funny, truck drivers seem an ideal fit for unionization, but tend to skew politically anti-union (in the South and Midwest at least).

Agreed that drivers have responsibility for a load they pick up, but my understanding is that with the new eLog systems there's less opportunity for "flex time". So if you arrive at a yard and need to get a container swapped to a new trailer or have them pull a different trailer then you're still on the clock. Which gets dicey when the yard knows this and says "Sure, we'll get you a new trailer. It'll just take a couple hours. We're really busy right now..."

The ideal would be the unionized situation you outlined, where there's a strong, independent driver's advocate to mediate disputes.

And agreed that there's a hard cliff where no one should be allowed to drive. But if it's 11 hours in the seat max, then what if you sat in traffic at a port for 5 of those? Is that driver as tired as someone doing 11 hours of interstate miles?

Paper logs afforded both drivers and regulators a judge-like discretion that I think lubricated the wheels with reasonableness while still dissuading repeated patterns of risky behavior.

eLog (assuming they fix all the loopholes in the terribly implemented first gen systems) doesn't provide that flexibility.

Which, in general, is a problem I think we're going to have to deal with more and more. You can't take partially enforced laws that worked, implement technical measures to absolutely enforce them, and expect everything to be the same as it was before. (E.g. if police departments started sueing for Google Maps tracking data and handing out tickets whenever a speed limit was exceeded)

Re:Alone on the Open Road: Truckers Feel Like ‘Throwaway Peo... by Spooky23 on Tuesday May 23, 2017 @02:12PM (#14403680)
14-16 hours of wakefulness is where you start hitting levels of impairment that are equivalent to 0.04BAC, which is the DUI threshold for CDL drivers. Doesn't matter if you are driving, reading, etc.

Here's a link: http://www.businessinsider.com/chart-on-sleep-deprivation-20... There's a lot of public military research as well, but without the pretty charts.

Re:Alone on the Open Road: Truckers Feel Like ‘Throwaway Peo... by linkregister on Monday May 22, 2017 @09:44PM (#14398220)
I agree the affront to liberty and personal agency is bad.

The regulation exists because of the unacceptable collision rate that truckers were having on public roads. Citizens compel the government to act when their relatives die due to a few irresponsible truckers who fall asleep behind the wheel.

The truckers in your family are probably responsible and know their limits. Brand new truckers ---or those who don't have the leverage to push back to an employer who expects them to drive dangerously long hours--- might not be responsible.

Re:Alone on the Open Road: Truckers Feel Like ‘Throwaway Peo... by ryandrake on Monday May 22, 2017 @11:29PM (#14398599)
As a member of the public that has to share the road with these monstrosities, I'm eternally grateful truckers' work hours are strongly regulated.
Re:Alone on the Open Road: Truckers Feel Like ‘Throwaway Peo... by Voyage_wanderer on Tuesday May 23, 2017 @03:03AM (#14399377)
And you, and the regulators are very wrong. Since I have eLog in my cab (mandatory for all trucks by the end of the year), I can't cheat in any way. Meaning I'm forced to drive to meet my delivery obligations when I'm falling asleep. I also forced to sit 10 hours during my break, quite often in less than pleasant conditions. I don't need 10 hours for sleep. I need 6. I waste other 4 browsing hacker sites. Then I work 14 hours very much without any meaningful breaks(to browse above mentioned sites). Until recently, before we had elogs, I could juggle a paper log. Now I can't. Now I have the big brother computer, which is totally hackable, thank you government. The monstrosity you so afraid of just became much worse. Now about anyone with little skills can take control over my truck. Trucks are part of IoT nowadays. Just think about it. 40 ton monstrosity connected to Internet
Re:Alone on the Open Road: Truckers Feel Like ‘Throwaway Peo... by Broken_Hippo on Tuesday May 23, 2017 @06:02AM (#14400063)
"There's a lot more friendly ways the legislation could ave been written: Work hour cap per week, different classes of CDL/ experience means different caps, etc."

Only these do not solve the issue. The issue is that working longer shifts puts people's lives in danger. You could legislate in some worker protections for the driver, making it more likely these things do not happen. But they wouldn't make the laws any less necessary.

Re:Alone on the Open Road: Truckers Feel Like ‘Throwaway Peo... by smileysteve on Monday May 22, 2017 @07:26PM (#14397665)
Knowing what we know about the effects of sitting on health, it seems drivers would be better with a 3 hour rule.
Re:Alone on the Open Road: Truckers Feel Like ‘Throwaway Peo... by s73ver on Monday May 22, 2017 @06:40PM (#14397457)
At the same time, without those hard rules, people get pressured to overwork.
Re:Alone on the Open Road: Truckers Feel Like ‘Throwaway Peo... by hencq on Monday May 22, 2017 @08:54PM (#14398020)
When I was in high school, several of my classmates had jobs as tomato pickers. The interesting thing was that some of them got paid per tomato while others got paid by the hour. The ones that were paid per tomato definitely seemed to work a lot harder. So much so that they didn't want to waste time on bathroom breaks and just peed between the tomato plants instead.

This essentially taught me two things: 1) performance pay really works and 2) always wash your vegetables.

Re:Alone on the Open Road: Truckers Feel Like ‘Throwaway Peo... by mentalhealth on Monday May 22, 2017 @05:44PM (#14397174)
Easily, the single most vocal group about piece work payments are the medical doctors I've talked to.

To be fair, there are unusual incentives in place here -- depending on the specific circumstances, each individual task or procedure a doctor performs may end up being coded differently for insurance reimbursement purposes. The focus of doctors on piece work is incentivized by the way insurance works.

Re:Alone on the Open Road: Truckers Feel Like ‘Throwaway Peo... by Aloha on Monday May 22, 2017 @05:52PM (#14397227)
I looked at it as a pay per task, each task came with a list of associated sub-tasks, which was often a bunch of sitting.
Re:Alone on the Open Road: Truckers Feel Like ‘Throwaway Peo... by eeeeeeeeeeeee on Monday May 22, 2017 @06:02PM (#14397279)
It seems like you should get paid (perhaps a slightly reduced hourly rate) if you're waiting for the truck to be loaded. That's completely outside of your control and yet I assume you must be in control of the truck the entire time?

I do think the mileage incentive makes sense because it forces you to be clever about your route. But not getting paid while a truck is loaded seems like total bullshit and basically another example of companies building their business off the backs of workers.

Re:Alone on the Open Road: Truckers Feel Like ‘Throwaway Peo... by jonlucc on Monday May 22, 2017 @08:42PM (#14397965)
If I'm not mistaken, the truckers are generally 1099 contractors (owner-operators), so it's not that they are just clocked out when they aren't moving, but they are paid by the mile to the destination. Of course, that results in the same effect as described above, but it hopefully adds some context.
Re:Alone on the Open Road: Truckers Feel Like ‘Throwaway Peo... by ams6110 on Monday May 22, 2017 @10:48PM (#14398462)
Some are owner/operators, many are not. I don't know the breakdown, but many people who drive trucks for a living do not have the financial resources or credit score to be able to buy their own truck (generally a purchase between $150,000 - $200,000 or more, with that much again in annual operating costs).
Re:Alone on the Open Road: Truckers Feel Like ‘Throwaway Peo... by bluedino on Monday May 22, 2017 @08:09PM (#14397838)
Hey, some truckers are lucky they don't have to load the truck!
Re:Alone on the Open Road: Truckers Feel Like ‘Throwaway Peo... by savanaly on Monday May 22, 2017 @03:13PM (#14396140)
I'm trying to think of reasons why it would be this way and what I can come up with is that if you were to pay by the hour instead of by the mile it would be an incentive to the drivers to take longer to complete routes. A classic principal-agent problem in other words. Is there any non-obvious reason besides that that anyone knows of?
Re:Alone on the Open Road: Truckers Feel Like ‘Throwaway Peo... by kefka on Monday May 22, 2017 @03:28PM (#14396255)
Doesn't seem that hard to mix the two.

We know a route from X to Y is $miles . Detours happen, but Google is getting to the point of calculating realtime incidents. But time could be fairly compensated, as could the miles on a vehicle.

If you took a way longer route, it's on you. But if you're traffic jammed, it's not your fault, and should fairly be compensated.

You know, that's what Unions are for.

Re:Alone on the Open Road: Truckers Feel Like ‘Throwaway Peo... by Spooky23 on Monday May 22, 2017 @05:52PM (#14397229)
Unions fixed this issue a long time ago.

Then Reagan de-regulated and lots of companies from right to work states moved in and killed the market. The union shops like Yellow Freight mostly operate in blue states and are profitable.

Re:Alone on the Open Road: Truckers Feel Like ‘Throwaway Peo... by moriarty-s3a on Tuesday May 23, 2017 @01:31AM (#14399005)
Trucking deregulation occurred between 1978-1980 during the Carter administration.

Plus, the way it was regulated makes modern regulatory capture look consumer friendly. If you wanted to start a trucking company, you had to submit a business plan with a list of committed customers and already set in stone pricing. The Feds would literally hand your plan to everyone with a route in the region, give them a few months to review it and then your potential competitors got to vote on whether you should be allowed to operate that route. Predictably, it was basically just outsourced sales for the exiting companies.

Re:Alone on the Open Road: Truckers Feel Like ‘Throwaway Peo... by jpttsn on Tuesday May 23, 2017 @04:14AM (#14399703)
It's not the trucker's fault they're traffic jammed. Does that mean it's their employer's fault?
Re:Alone on the Open Road: Truckers Feel Like ‘Throwaway Peo... by kefka on Tuesday May 23, 2017 @01:04PM (#14402963)
It's not the employee's fault if a restaurant is "dead" for an evening. But the employees are required to be there, and thusly, are paid.

Same here. If the truck driver was free to go home, or whatever, sure dont pay them. But traffic jams are in transit between places they are told to go. It doesn't have to be the "fault" of the employer. But the employee is captive, and working, and absolutely should be paid with regards to time.

Re:Alone on the Open Road: Truckers Feel Like ‘Throwaway Peo... by jpttsn on Tuesday May 23, 2017 @07:49PM (#14406477)
From the employee perspective that makes sense. You articulate why they should be paid. But is that enough?

I think you have to reason about the other side of the equation, where someone has to pay you.

It rains. I have to walk to work I the rain. I should get compensated. But is my employer on the hook, to give me the happiness I would've had if it hadn't been raining?

Re:Alone on the Open Road: Truckers Feel Like ‘Throwaway Peo... by watwut on Monday May 22, 2017 @03:53PM (#14396432)
Truckers are not in position to negotiate better working conditions. If you don't take the deal, somebody else will. There does not need to be more.
Re:Alone on the Open Road: Truckers Feel Like ‘Throwaway Peo... by ams6110 on Monday May 22, 2017 @06:03PM (#14397284)
On the other hand, trucking companies for the most part are lacking drivers. Turnover is rampant. Drivers will hop to another company for a better per-mile rate, or better scheduling, or newer equipment. Good, safe, dependable drivers are in demand.

And they don't want idle trucks any more than the driver does because if the truck is idle they aren't making money either.

Re:Alone on the Open Road: Truckers Feel Like ‘Throwaway Peo... by ryandrake on Monday May 22, 2017 @11:25PM (#14398581)
Shadows of the constant "shortage of engineers" threads on HN. There are parallels if you look--the same dichotomy: Companies saying they lack employees, high turnover, job hopping, yet employees say they are dis-satisfied, have little power over their working conditions, their office situation, the terms of their employment, etc. because there's always someone willing to take their spot.
Re:Alone on the Open Road: Truckers Feel Like ‘Throwaway Peo... by chii on Tuesday May 23, 2017 @05:13AM (#14399905)
those arguments from both sides seems to be mutually exclusive. One of them must be wrong!
Re:Alone on the Open Road: Truckers Feel Like ‘Throwaway Peo... by maxxxxx on Monday May 22, 2017 @06:54PM (#14397519)
" Good, safe, dependable trucking companies are in demand."

You could also phrase it this way. Maybe drivers wouldn't jump if they got treated better,

Re:Alone on the Open Road: Truckers Feel Like ‘Throwaway Peo... by bluedino on Monday May 22, 2017 @08:10PM (#14397842)
We have had guys quit and leave a full truck on the side of the road. Then you have to fly someone out to get it and finish the route.
Re:Alone on the Open Road: Truckers Feel Like ‘Throwaway Peo... by adrr on Monday May 22, 2017 @03:59PM (#14396466)
Could always form a union. Low skill jobs income has declined with the decline of unions representing them.
Re:Alone on the Open Road: Truckers Feel Like ‘Throwaway Peo... by nerfhammer on Monday May 22, 2017 @04:12PM (#14396558)
Long haul truckers are very often (usually?) owner-operators that own the truck themselves and pick up hauling contracts; they aren't employees.

Otherwise there are teamsters, which are very heavily unionized.

Re:Alone on the Open Road: Truckers Feel Like ‘Throwaway Peo... by dv_dt on Monday May 22, 2017 @05:22PM (#14397042)
Is there anything in between? Small to med cooperatives of long-haul truckers?
Re:Alone on the Open Road: Truckers Feel Like ‘Throwaway Peo... by dredmorbius on Tuesday May 23, 2017 @06:39PM (#14406016)
Guild, then.
Re:Alone on the Open Road: Truckers Feel Like ‘Throwaway Peo... by Spooky23 on Monday May 22, 2017 @05:53PM (#14397234)
Nope. Look at trucks on interstates, most are from the South or Midwest right to work states on the east coast.
Re:Alone on the Open Road: Truckers Feel Like ‘Throwaway Peo... by revicon on Monday May 22, 2017 @03:24PM (#14396229)
One guess is that most truck drivers were freelance (and many still are), owning their truck and getting paid per mile. Perhaps the rest of the industry standardized around that model regardless of the relationship the truck driver has with the parent company.
Re:Alone on the Open Road: Truckers Feel Like ‘Throwaway Peo... by draw_down on Monday May 22, 2017 @03:34PM (#14396296)
The reason why it is this way is because it is better for the employer if the employee must shoulder the financial burden of dead time.
Re:Alone on the Open Road: Truckers Feel Like ‘Throwaway Peo... by savanaly on Monday May 22, 2017 @08:24PM (#14397898)
It would be better for the employer if the employee paid for the oil checks on the trucks, or worked for the minimum wage. So why isn't that the case? "Because it's better for the employer" is simultaneously the explanation for everything and nothing. In reality, these situations arise from a lot of complex interactions between employer, employee and regulatory body, which is what I was trying to get at.
Re:Alone on the Open Road: Truckers Feel Like ‘Throwaway Peo... by Spooky23 on Monday May 22, 2017 @11:41PM (#14398644)
The consequence to the employer for missed maintenance on a truck is damage to the asset or loss of use when the truck is pulled off the road by DOT inspectors.

The consequence to an employee getting stuffed is that the driver has less time to sleep or jerk around in the back of the truck.

Guess what the company doesn't give a shit about?

Re:Alone on the Open Road: Truckers Feel Like ‘Throwaway Peo... by jpttsn on Tuesday May 23, 2017 @04:18AM (#14399725)
You're certain that it's out of spite/indifference, more than say economics?
Re:Alone on the Open Road: Truckers Feel Like ‘Throwaway Peo... by Spooky23 on Tuesday May 23, 2017 @10:21AM (#14401382)
Definitionally. I doubt spite is a major factor, but the management is almost certainly intentionally indifferent.

Economics doesn't care about the morale of the workers in this context as it contributes nothing to the bottom line.

Re:Alone on the Open Road: Truckers Feel Like ‘Throwaway Peo... by jpttsn on Tuesday May 23, 2017 @07:42PM (#14406454)
I'm in agreement, inasmuch as I hope management cares little for anything they believe doesn't touch the bottom line.

Would you prefer if management cared more about that, instead of the bottom line?

Re:Alone on the Open Road: Truckers Feel Like ‘Throwaway Peo... by draw_down on Tuesday May 23, 2017 @01:40PM (#14403287)
> It would be better for the employer if the employee paid for the oil checks on the trucks, or worked for the minimum wage.

Yeah, I mean, I'm sure if they could make that happen, they would!

Re:Alone on the Open Road: Truckers Feel Like ‘Throwaway Peo... by Spooky23 on Monday May 22, 2017 @11:39PM (#14398636)
We have managers and dispatchers to take care of that.

The real reason is that it pushes off risk. Why would a trucking company pay a guy to sit in traffic? WTF is the guy going to do anyway... he's sleeping in the truck behind a gas station somewhere in Armpit, PA.

Re:Alone on the Open Road: Truckers Feel Like ‘Throwaway Peo... by petra on Monday May 22, 2017 @03:24PM (#14396235)
With today's apps, it's possible to solve that problem while still paying fairly. Maybe even without apps.

But why ? why not dump the risk of delays at the weak party in this transaction ?

Re:Alone on the Open Road: Truckers Feel Like ‘Throwaway Peo... by jessaustin on Monday May 22, 2017 @06:37PM (#14397437)
Isn't this situation directly analogous to e.g. Uber? That isn't hard to understand, is it?
Re:Alone on the Open Road: Truckers Feel Like ‘Throwaway Peo... by mikey_p on Monday May 22, 2017 @11:38PM (#14398635)
The big problem here is that if you're at the terminal waiting on a load, you're "on-duty, not driving." This is a specific status as it relates to federal motor carrier regulations that govern the hours a driver can operate. Once you've hit 14 hours of "on duty" time for the day you can't drive any longer.

Some major carriers will ask drivers to fudge this, although the rules are actually pretty strict about this. Notably, Wal-Mart has come under a lot of criticism in the past for asking drivers to mark time waiting for a truck to be loaded/unloaded as "off duty" instead of "on duty, not driving."

Re:Alone on the Open Road: Truckers Feel Like ‘Throwaway Peo... by twothamendment on Tuesday May 23, 2017 @12:18AM (#14398767)
There are parts of the job that are 100% essential to have done, yet it is OK to not pay a driver for doing it - like putting fuel in the truck. I don't understand it.

There are too many companies that ask drivers to fudge the books. My dad has worked for a handful of them and finally found a nice place where he doesn't have to worry about that kind of request. I think it is more common than people think.

Re:Alone on the Open Road: Truckers Feel Like ‘Throwaway Peo... by org3432 on Monday May 22, 2017 @04:38PM (#14396734)
The issue isn't that they're not getting paid for non-driving time, it's that the driving time pay isn't enough to cover the non-driving time. Which is to say the economics of the job overall isn't working..
Re:Alone on the Open Road: Truckers Feel Like ‘Throwaway Peo... by logfromblammo on Monday May 22, 2017 @06:11PM (#14397314)
Isn't all that exactly why taxicab meters have a hail fee and then measure both time and distance?
Re:Alone on the Open Road: Truckers Feel Like ‘Throwaway Peo... by taxicabjesus on Monday May 22, 2017 @07:01PM (#14397549)
> Isn't all that exactly why taxicab meters have a hail fee and then measure both time and distance?

The meters only charge for time when the cab isn't moving, or is moving slowly... This enabled a passenger to run in to a convenience store, and it would be worthwhile for the driver to wait for the passenger to buy their beer (or whatever). Sometimes my passengers would ask me to stop the meter so it wouldn't run up on them ("sure"), others expected it and were fine with the arrangement.

It looks like the gorilla rideshare company slashed their per-minute rate in Phoenix since I last checked - used to be $0.25/min, now is $0.09/min. This makes it not worthwhile for the "ride share" driver to wait for their passenger to run into a store... In theory, since the "rides" show up instantaneously it's more efficient to get a new ride rather than make stops.

Since the "ridesharing" apps charge for both time & distance, the posted price-per-mile makes it seem like you're getting a better deal than you are. 3-4 minutes/mile adds $0.27-$0.36 to the cost for every mile of travel, at $0.09/min.

Re:Alone on the Open Road: Truckers Feel Like ‘Throwaway Peo... by mahyarm on Monday May 22, 2017 @07:10PM (#14397597)
If rides show up instantly, wouldn't it be more efficient to just get another uber ride after your 5 minute shopping trip?
Re:Alone on the Open Road: Truckers Feel Like ‘Throwaway Peo... by taxicabjesus on Monday May 22, 2017 @07:27PM (#14397674)
If rides could show up instantly, it would be more efficient to just get a new 'ride' for every leg of your trip. But Phoenix is spread out, and you can't always count on a car being nearby.

It typically took me 7 minutes to get to a pickup address, which included a minute to plug the address into my navigation software (the taxi company I used to drive for now has a phone app that automagically directs the driver to the pickup address, just like the upstarts' system). The mother of a friend of mine has taken to using "Lifts" when she needs to go someplace where she'd rather not have to park. I explained that the driver she was getting might not actually be just around the corner.

Re:Alone on the Open Road: Truckers Feel Like ‘Throwaway Peo... by justin66 on Monday May 22, 2017 @04:31PM (#14396690)
Does all that goofiness apply if you're unionized, like the Teamsters?