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Re:Shell made a film about climate change in 1991 by 75dvtwin on Monday May 08, 2017 @12:35AM (#14289282)
Definitely worth the watch.

here are my cliff notes:

> human energy consumption, by means of burning fossil fuels, is the reason for green house gases, that in turn trap more heat, then our environment can sustain.

> technology to reduce CO2 emission, assuming the same level of electricity consumption -- is far from being available. They had talked about Nuclear, sun, geo, nuclear fusion.

>more efficient means to convert to electricity:

>35% of coal energy is transformed to electricity

> incandescent light bulb converts only 5% to light If larger city (NY, Moscow, Bombay etc) switch to better light bulb, 1 million ton of C02 emissions every year, each.

> simply changing from coal to gas cuts carbon emission by 40%

>half of worlds oil is used by 500mln road vehicles. 400 mln of those are private cars. each producing 4 times its weight in CO2, each year. Internal com engine is only 20% efficient. Cars can improve by 3 times (not clear, if they assumed electric only or not).

> when gas is not available option, coal can be gasified

> >Taxation can work both ways, already there is a talk of carbon tax. But how to achieve compliance across national borders.

>Global warming calls for global response. but world is not a common market. Examples they used is Easter Europe, other developing regions.

>How could this countries advance, but leap-frog energy developments?

Future must be different, developing countries cannot take the same path as the developed countries in the past.

Re:Shell made a film about climate change in 1991 by oblio on Monday May 08, 2017 @04:29AM (#14290057)
Well, they aren't. I mean we all aren't taking the same exact path. For example:

> technology to reduce CO2 emission, assuming the same level of electricity consumption -- is far from being available. They had talked about Nuclear, sun, geo, nuclear fusion.

Solar and wind power are picking up steam (pun intendend :p).

> incandescent light bulb converts only 5% to light If larger city (NY, Moscow, Bombay etc) switch to better light bulb, 1 million ton of C02 emissions every year, each.

Incadescent light bulbs are largely obsolete. I'm sure they haven't been replaced 100% but they definitely are on their way out.

> simply changing from coal to gas cuts carbon emission by 40%

This is also happening cause gas is very cheap right now.

Re:Shell made a film about climate change in 1991 by Scarblac on Monday May 08, 2017 @04:46AM (#14290116)
> Solar and wind power are picking up steam (pun intendend :p).

Yes, we produce more solar and wind power, but the level of electricity consumption has also increased. Are we outputting less CO2 for electricity, or does all the solar and wind just come on top of what we already had?

Re:Shell made a film about climate change in 1991 by oblio on Monday May 08, 2017 @04:56AM (#14290149)
I can't find a source for global emissions, but for the EU the emissions are actually lower than in 1990: https://www.eea.europa.eu/highlights/eu-greenhouse-gas-emiss...

I expect China's emissions to be through the roof compared to 1990, on the other hand they've noticed the problem and unlike Trump's head in the sand approach, the vast majority of their energy investments are in renewables.

So things are bad but they're looking up.

Re:Shell made a film about climate change in 1991 by theparanoid on Monday May 08, 2017 @06:29AM (#14290492)
90% of China's energy consumption is from hydro-carbons [0]. Mostly coal.

[0] https://www.eia.gov/beta/international/analysis.cfm?iso=CHN

Re:Shell made a film about climate change in 1991 by morsch on Monday May 08, 2017 @06:45AM (#14290536)
Note that this number is for total primary energy consumption, including things such as transportation and heating. For electrical power generation, it's about 70% from coal, gas and oil. That said, it's completely reasonable to look at the total energy consumption.

Grandparent was talking about investments, though, not the status quo. Couldn't readily find figures relating to the distribution of investments, but it's easy to find articles about the large scope of their renewable ambitions, e.g. http://www.wri.org/blog/2017/01/china-leaving-us-behind-clea...

Re:Shell made a film about climate change in 1991 by danielam on Monday May 08, 2017 @10:40AM (#14291851)
Re:Shell made a film about climate change in 1991 by effie on Tuesday May 09, 2017 @08:23AM (#14299389)
Thanks for pointing out an interesting article.
Re:Shell made a film about climate change in 1991 by Tepix on Monday May 08, 2017 @05:12AM (#14290207)
> when gas is not available option, coal can be gasified

That's an interesting point, does someone have the calculation on what the net benefits of this process are?

Re:Shell made a film about climate change in 1991 by adrianN on Monday May 08, 2017 @05:47AM (#14290323)
Re:Shell made a film about climate change in 1991 by dTal on Monday May 08, 2017 @05:46PM (#14295911)
Re incandescent bulbs: increasing the efficiency of consumption of a resource usually increases the total consumption of that resource. Ergo, switching away from incandescent bulbs will actually accelerate global warming.

This is known as Jevon's paradox.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jevons_paradox

Re:Shell made a film about climate change in 1991 by aoeusnth1 on Tuesday May 09, 2017 @04:36PM (#14303589)
Ew, ok, but you get a lot more consumer surplus in the meantime and carbon taxes are much more palatable when costs are lower. This isn't a good reason to not invest in efficiency.
Re:Shell made a film about climate change in 1991 by vmarsy on Monday May 08, 2017 @01:42AM (#14289491)
Yes that's a nice summary. It's good to see that some of steps have already been taken (led instead of incandescent) and that at that time photovoltaic technologies weren't viable yet thus not mentioned in the video.

Also I like the irony of showing Volkswagen cars when mentioning efforts from the E.U. to reduce car emissions :)

Re:Shell made a film about climate change in 1991 by adrianN on Monday May 08, 2017 @02:39AM (#14289695)
It is my understanding that with internal combustion engines there is a trade-off between NOx and CO2. The hotter you burn, the more efficient the engine, but you also create more NOx. Volkswagen chose to tune their engines for fuel consumption, reducing GHGs, but tried to cheat their way around the illegally increased NOx.
Re:Shell made a film about climate change in 1991 by libeclipse on Monday May 08, 2017 @02:57AM (#14289761)
Isn't that the whole point of the catalytic converter?
Re:Shell made a film about climate change in 1991 by adrianN on Monday May 08, 2017 @04:16AM (#14290016)
For Diesel engines you typically use Ammonia ("AdBlue") to get rid of NOx. Gasoline engines can use three-way catalytic converters.
Re:Shell made a film about climate change in 1991 by sitepodmatt on Monday May 08, 2017 @03:37AM (#14289901)
Private car ownership should be banned imho. People will claim that public transport including taxis isnt up to the task of point to point travel but Id wager this void would be quickly filled up by enterprising private companies. Vanity, materialism.. A bloody shame..
Re:Shell made a film about climate change in 1991 by ZeroGravitas on Monday May 08, 2017 @04:41AM (#14290100)
Taxing by weight and emissions and cost are a more pragmatic version of this.

Cars, and houses, are to a degree used for status signalling. With products like that, heavy taxes increase total utility since you can still have a nicer car/house than your poorer neighbour, it's just that all cars/houses have been bumped up a rung of show-offiness. Compare Europe to the USA for example. Even the American electric cars are comically large by euro standards.

(Other co-benefits are improved safety, an analysis of CARB regulations suggested that they paid for themselves just by reducing death and injury by encouraging lighter cars, even if you ignore air quality issues)

Re:Shell made a film about climate change in 1991 by onion2k on Monday May 08, 2017 @07:03AM (#14290597)
Taxing by weight and emissions and cost are a more pragmatic version of this.

We do that here in the UK. The difference between a small economical car and a giant SUV is a factor of 5 (£110 for a small car vs £515 for a huge car, plus a couple of lower bands for electric and 'green' cars). It really isn't enough make anyone who wants to drive a big car choose something else. It needs to be more like 50 times more for a big car rather than 5, but politicians are too scared to introduce that.

Re:Shell made a film about climate change in 1991 by exprA on Monday May 08, 2017 @09:42AM (#14291354)
>politicians are too scared to introduce that.

Of course politicians should be the one who decide the rules. That's how democracy works...

Keep in mind that the jet fuel that's used to transport all the world's hipsters to “experience the world” is not taxed at all – or does that hit too close to home even for a person who doesn't own a car? A life that's aimed at solely minimising emissions is a bleak one, which is why it's not the will of the majority.

Re:Shell made a film about climate change in 1991 by aphexbr on Tuesday May 09, 2017 @09:29AM (#14299785)
"the jet fuel that's used to transport all the world's hipsters to “experience the world”"

What about the jet fuel that's used for the other 98% of people who fly on a regular basis? Is that less polluting, or are you just jealous of the people who travel internationally for leisure? You're not making any sense, unless you're deluded enough to think that those are the only people who fly. "does that hit too close to home even for a person who doesn't own a car?"

Again, that makes no sense. Why would car ownership affect the impact of jet fuel pollution? If it's the "hipsters" you're concerned about, wouldn't those be the people who are already offsetting the environmental cost of air travel by using public transport and/or unmotorised travel and thus polluting less than car owners?

In other words, you seem to be more interested at attacking a threadbare strawman than evaluate what's actually happening. It's pretty sad, when the actual reason for taxation is pretty clear (to encourage less polluting methods of transport where one reasonably exists, which may not be the case for many air routes).

The real kicker? Jet fuel is actually taxed https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_taxes_in_the_United_State...

Re:Shell made a film about climate change in 1991 by redcalx on Monday May 08, 2017 @11:59AM (#14292744)
You're forgetting tax on fuel, which at 57.95 pence/litre for petrol/diesel is almost a tax rate of 100%. Unfortunately most of this money goes into the general budget rather than being used to improve transport infrastructure and/or reduce CO2 or NOX emissions.
Re:Shell made a film about climate change in 1991 by jessaustin on Monday May 08, 2017 @08:25AM (#14290932)
If the base tax for a small economical car were £10000, a factor of 5 might be enough...
Re:Shell made a film about climate change in 1991 by rocqua on Monday May 08, 2017 @05:55AM (#14290357)
Houses as status signaling doesn't work in large cities with a lot of work. Very few people live in e.g. London for the status.
Re:Shell made a film about climate change in 1991 by JohnDotAwesome on Monday May 08, 2017 @03:57AM (#14289956)
I live in Texas. Private car ownership definitely has a materialistic component. However, owning a car is almost a necessity in every city in Texas. You see a lot of big, decked-out pickup trucks here (vanity). I drive a Prius because there aren't good public transit options (necessity) and I like to visit family in Dallas (I'm in Austin). I end up driving _a lot_.

I understand that some governments have penalized car ownership by way of license plate restrictions and other tax situations (I've heard that license plates in China get auctioned for $12k USD because they're so rare). This turns owning a car into a vanity symbol for the wealthy. It may not even be an intentional symbol, but I'm sure that's the way it's perceived by those who don't own a car.

My point being that for some, car ownership isn't so bad. No need to go shaming people.

Re:Shell made a film about climate change in 1991 by oblio on Monday May 08, 2017 @04:26AM (#14290048)
Restricting license plates is stupid. Instead they should put extra taxes on cars with higher fuel consumption* and probably on bigger cars * * .

* Higher fuel consumption = some categories could be exempt, for example vans used by ONGs, firms and independent contractors.

* * Bigger cars = smaller cars are easier to park, take less space in traffic and make it overall more fluid, etc. I think exemptions could be made here for the categories I mentioned previously and for families with children, for example.

Re:Shell made a film about climate change in 1991 by tajen on Monday May 08, 2017 @07:49AM (#14290779)
Wouldn't just tax on petrol solve that? In Europe petrol at the pump is twice the price of the refined barrel. If you look carefully, this has a complete impact on the way EU cities are architectured (way above history).

Plus, taxing per gallon is exactly proportional to the burden on society.

Re:Shell made a film about climate change in 1991 by oblio on Monday May 08, 2017 @11:28AM (#14292364)
I think there should be an upfront tax. Taxes dilluted over time seem to be less visible, we're really bad at estimates, as every developer knows :)

An extra 50 cents per gallon is quite a bit, but it doesn't seem to discourage this behavior. 40% on the price of the car instead... could make a lot more people think twice about the purchase.

Re:Shell made a film about climate change in 1991 by mveldth on Monday May 08, 2017 @01:45PM (#14293837)
Petrol price at the pump does factor into it. For longer distances, I look at public transport and weigh travel time and ticket prices against fuel costs.

For shorter distances, great bicycling infrastructure helps a lot. Buses are nice but cycling is often as fast, with the benefit of being completely door to door and leaving exactly when you want to. But this benefit only works if people feel completely safe on the road, which means mostly seperate cycle paths, and removing cars from the busy city centers. Not having cars there makes shopping more attractive, because it's now easier to walk from store to the store across the road.

That same infrastructure then also helps make trains more attractive, because you can set up cheap bike hire at stations. This then means your journey can be bike-train-bike door to door, rather than walk-bus-train-bus-walk (or worse).

It's a complicated connected mesh of things.

Re:Shell made a film about climate change in 1991 by libraryatnight on Monday May 08, 2017 @11:14AM (#14292204)
Where I live, people drive gigantic gas hog trucks and SUV's. I like this idea. People with those types of vehicles might start to gravitate towards those who actually require their use, vs just thinking 'bigger and louder and faster is cooler.'
Re:Shell made a film about climate change in 1991 by rtpg on Monday May 08, 2017 @04:07AM (#14289991)
I think the idea is to penalize car ownership in places where you "shouldn't" need one.

If you're courageous, you could live in downtown Dallas without a car (can move around a bit with DART). Making it harder to own a car (combined with more "dense-city" developments) doesn't seem like the worst idea. Mainly because we could recover the huuuge parking lots.

And when you want to go to Austin for the weekend you can rent a car.

In any case, even if the entire state is still very much "car necessary", you can still try to incentivise pockets of the state to be less so.

Re:Shell made a film about climate change in 1991 by FullMtlAlcoholc on Monday May 08, 2017 @04:23AM (#14290039)
If your goal is to have an significant impact on climate change, you'd more bang for your buck and just as likely a chance of banning red meat, especially with electric car ownership on the rise.

I've commuted by bike and public transportation for a number of years and I'd never want to ban vehicle ownership. A more workable solution would be to make driving tests less of a joke or to make dense areas of city centers car free zones. American cities are just too large and often times people drive without a destination in mind, like my Sunday drives down the California Public Highway along the beach.

Re:Shell made a film about climate change in 1991 by exprA on Monday May 08, 2017 @09:48AM (#14291389)
I wonder which has a bigger impact on human consumption levels: a person that decides to save his time by driving a car instead of waiting for a bus, or Africa's population increasing from 250 million in 1960 to about 5 billion by 2100.

Let's focus on the selfish car guy, that's the big picture all right in “saving” the world.

Re:Shell made a film about climate change in 1991 by rtpg on Monday May 08, 2017 @08:16PM (#14296737)
Pour que no los dos?

The "selfish car guy" is why the American lifestyle consumes twice as much as the Japanese lifestyle. Everything gets built around it.

And of course there's the fact that the American lifestyle gets exported to other places as well.

Re:Shell made a film about climate change in 1991 by kolinko on Monday May 08, 2017 @04:15AM (#14290013)
In this spirit, some European cities have car-free zones, and narrow their inner streets.
Re:Shell made a film about climate change in 1991 by pmorici on Monday May 08, 2017 @08:34AM (#14290972)
Don't fool yourself driving a Prius is as much a vanity symbol as a decked out pickup you are just seeking status with a different crowd.
Re:Shell made a film about climate change in 1991 by reaperhulk on Monday May 08, 2017 @08:38AM (#14290993)
An affordable car with good gas mileage is a status symbol? A Prius was an environmental status symbol 10 years ago, but now it's just a practical choice for people who want a reliable and (relatively) cheap car.
Re:Shell made a film about climate change in 1991 by pmorici on Tuesday May 09, 2017 @08:54AM (#14299545)
The starting MSRP of a base model Prius is 27% more costly than the Corolla a similarly sized car w/ a standard gas engine.
Re:Shell made a film about climate change in 1991 by in_the_sticks on Monday May 08, 2017 @08:44AM (#14291017)
Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. I drive a fairly economical Jetta. Is that also a status symbol or did I just need a cheap, reliable car to get from point A to point B?
Re:Shell made a film about climate change in 1991 by aoeusnth1 on Tuesday May 09, 2017 @04:40PM (#14303620)
Is it wrong to reward good behavior with higher social status? I think not.
Re:Shell made a film about climate change in 1991 by kolinko on Monday May 08, 2017 @04:11AM (#14290000)
If the area is not dense enough, public transport will be difficult to organise. You would need some form of a hybrid between Uber and a bus.

Also, many professions require high levels of mobility.

Finally, unless you introduce some kind of permit system and create serious beaurocracy for enforcing it, people will just pretend to have their own companies and drive "company" cars anyway.

Nature will find a way :)

And I say this while taking 50% of my trips with public transit (the rest with Uber). I seriously hope we get rid of gas cars one way, but banning private ownership would be crazy.

Re:Shell made a film about climate change in 1991 by selckin on Monday May 08, 2017 @08:07AM (#14290863)
> You would need some form of a hybrid between Uber and a bus.

In Belgium we have busses that only drive if you call them up first https://www.delijn.be/en/belbus/

Re:Shell made a film about climate change in 1991 by pizza234 on Monday May 08, 2017 @04:40AM (#14290093)
In some cultures, "overuse" of personal transport (if we want to put it this way) is a vicious circle of context and individual; it's not simply a fault of the latter.

Public transport underdeveloped -> more people use personal transport -> public transport develops even less, city develops around personal transport -> vicious circle.

Of course the individual it's a purely not victim, but in certain contexts, using the car is a necessity. In such cases, a strong collective effort should be made to reverse the situation.

Re:Shell made a film about climate change in 1991 by Spooky23 on Monday May 08, 2017 @08:31AM (#14290955)
Great idea. You start.