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Re:Intel Discontinues the Intel Developer Forum; IDF17 Cance... by pkaye on Monday April 17, 2017 @12:26PM (#14132154)
I'm guessing these yearly conferences will fade away as Moore's Law falls apart and Intel and others will have a harder time coming up with something new to showcase every year. No longer can you rely on process shrinks to innovate.
Re:Intel Discontinues the Intel Developer Forum; IDF17 Cance... by ocschwar on Monday April 17, 2017 @02:18PM (#14133158)
If Intel can't offer more compelling improvements in watts per operation, I would be very disappointed.

We know fab sizing is going to stop being worth it. But bigger dies, with better heat dissipation, and processors that better fit today's use cases, all that should be within Intel's capabilities.

Re:Intel Discontinues the Intel Developer Forum; IDF17 Cance... by jacquesm on Monday April 17, 2017 @05:16PM (#14134482)
> If Intel can't offer more compelling improvements in watts per operation, I would be very disappointed.

There are some pretty hard physical boundaries. Businesses write off their hardware in 3 or 5 years, it's rare to see a machine older than that. But there may come a time when a 10 year old computer is just as powerful as one you buy today. The replacement market is what's driving Intel's revenues for a very large part and if that should ever stop then it probably wouldn't be a great idea to hold a lot of intel stock.

Re:Intel Discontinues the Intel Developer Forum; IDF17 Cance... by niklasrde on Monday April 17, 2017 @05:44PM (#14134681)
> it's rare to see a machine older than that

Oh I wish. Oh I wish..

Re:Intel Discontinues the Intel Developer Forum; IDF17 Cance... by asah on Monday April 17, 2017 @11:57PM (#14136364)
> there may come a time when a 10 year old computer is just as powerful as one you buy today

You mean like my 2012 laptop, upgraded to 16GB RAM, which is perfectly good at web browsing, Google docs and html/python/postgres dev ?

Re:Intel Discontinues the Intel Developer Forum; IDF17 Cance... by ocschwar on Tuesday April 18, 2017 @03:42PM (#14142206)
Or my BeagleBone card, which is now my home data server.
Re:Intel Discontinues the Intel Developer Forum; IDF17 Cance... by komali2 on Monday April 17, 2017 @01:23PM (#14132718)
People always talk about Moore's Law falling apart, and it seems like people didn't see it coming. I mean, I didn't, I'm just a guy that reads a lot of scifi. But I always assumed whiz-bang mathematicians had already figured out, I dunno, the threshold at which a processor can be nanosized, or like how big a processor could become before the distances became too great that due to the speed of light further computational advancement wasn't possible. I mean, I know nothing about this stuff, like I said, I just read a lot of scifi and have a high opinion of all the smart folk researching this stuff. Would love to learn more.
Re:Intel Discontinues the Intel Developer Forum; IDF17 Cance... by bsder on Monday April 17, 2017 @04:14PM (#14134022)
> People always talk about Moore's Law falling apart, and it seems like people didn't see it coming.

People didn't WANT to see it coming. The data that it broke were back at 65nm but very much at 40nm and 28nm. RAM hasn't scaled in years.

However, the history of technology is littered with the corpses of those who bet against Moore's Law. Combine this with the fact that your job basically depends upon Moore's Law continuing, and you have something similar to the Wall Street collapse. I can bet against it, but I lose my job if I'm wrong, and I lose my job if I'm right. Better to just close my eyes and cash my paycheck.

For consumer evidence simply look at embedded microcontrollers. Note that RAM and flash haven't been scaling every 18 months for a while.

Re:Intel Discontinues the Intel Developer Forum; IDF17 Cance... by jacquesm on Monday April 17, 2017 @05:20PM (#14134509)
I see this as a good thing. Now we can finally get down to what we should have been doing in the first place: better software, rather than just more of it and of mediocre quality. Moore's law has bailed out many producers of inferior quality software and now that that free run has come to an end we're going to have to take a really hard look at how we cook this stuff up.
Re:Intel Discontinues the Intel Developer Forum; IDF17 Cance... by ghaff on Monday April 17, 2017 @06:00PM (#14134803)
But do you really believe that by taking "a really hard look at how we cook this stuff up" software engineers can double performance (in the sense of effective work) every 18 months? We can absolutely turn the dial toward more effort on software such as algorithms/compiled languages/etc. but color me unconvinced that there's exponential growth possibilities there.
Re:Intel Discontinues the Intel Developer Forum; IDF17 Cance... by jacquesm on Monday April 17, 2017 @06:06PM (#14134842)
Yes, I really believe that. And the reason why is probably not going to be very popular here but I believe that we took a wrong turn at some point in the past two or three decades that made us concentrate on the wrong thing. In the mid 80's there was a fairly strong push to substantially improve the quality of software, rather than the quantity. And when the web happened that all got flushed down the toilet and we now have about 500 ways to do the exact same thing, none of them very good, efficient or stable.

It's like the world just after the Cambrian explosion. Lots of room for expansion but no real plan or intelligence behind it resulting in a ton of repeat work and variations on themes that will ultimately go nowhere.

And once all that noise has died down the real work can finally begin, much more wood behind far fewer arrows.

Re:Intel Discontinues the Intel Developer Forum; IDF17 Cance... by ghaff on Monday April 17, 2017 @06:17PM (#14134905)
I actually hope you're right. As you (approximately) wrote in another comment, "you canna change the laws of physics." CMOS has been a very special technology but it's obviously reaching the end of its life.
Re:Intel Discontinues the Intel Developer Forum; IDF17 Cance... by jacquesm on Monday April 17, 2017 @06:22PM (#14134944)
There are some exotic processes that give better performance but the economies of scale aren't there yet and the cost of production is probably always going to be much higher than that of Silicon, which is after all a very abundant element on Earth.

There was a fantastic video about IC manufacturing linked here on HN a while ago, I'm not sure if I'll be able to find it.

edit: Hah, found it :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NGFhc8R_uO4

Re:Intel Discontinues the Intel Developer Forum; IDF17 Cance... by ghaff on Monday April 17, 2017 @04:46PM (#14134286)
There's some truth in that. And there are also various approaches that can probably mitigate the end of CMOS process scaling for a while (special-purpose hardware, photonics, 3D stacking, etc.)

Some of these will cause some pain in other areas like software development.

That said, there's absolutely no guarantee that there's a true CMOS 2.0 on the horizon that will provides anything like the approximately 3500X performance gains we've seen from CMOS process scaling. There are huge macro implications if computing basically stops getting faster/cheaper/smaller from year to year.

Re:Intel Discontinues the Intel Developer Forum; IDF17 Cance... by ghaff on Monday April 17, 2017 @01:31PM (#14132798)
>People always talk about Moore's Law falling apart, and it seems like people didn't see it coming.

First of all, let's be more precise. In this context, what people mean by the "end of Moore's Law" is the slowdown and, soon, probable end of CMOS process scaling. The issue is that CMOS process scaling has been such an incredible engine for performance that just getting those kinds of performance increases in other ways isn't easy. I wrote a bit about this a year ago.

http://bitmason.blogspot.com/2016/01/beyond-general-purpose-...

To answer your question, people did see this coming. There were disagreements about how far down you could economically drive feature sizes so there has been debate about exact dates. But pretty much no one thought CMOS features could be made arbitrarily small.

Re:Intel Discontinues the Intel Developer Forum; IDF17 Cance... by spb on Monday April 24, 2017 @08:22AM (#14183660)
> But pretty much no one thought CMOS features could be made arbitrarily small.

Pretty much no one qualified, maybe. There are lots of laymen (including many True Believers in The Singularity) who operate under the impression that it's a fixed law of nature.

Re:Intel Discontinues the Intel Developer Forum; IDF17 Cance... by akuma73 on Monday April 17, 2017 @01:42PM (#14132870)
Have a look at this photo: http://m.eet.com/media/1169843/120906_intel_22_3.jpg

That's a fin of a modern transistor (Intel 22nm). The dots in the photo are atoms. It's fair to say that Moore's law is nearing an end or has already ended.

Re:Intel Discontinues the Intel Developer Forum; IDF17 Cance... by Animats on Monday April 17, 2017 @01:53PM (#14132961)
Atoms are too big, photons are too big, electrons are too big, and the speed of light is too slow. There's no longer plenty of room at the bottom.

Still, it's not like the physical size of semiconductors is the problem. A CPU today is maybe 100mm^2 of silicon. 4U of rack space can easily hold tens of thousands of CPUs, if you can power them, cool them, and connect them up in a useful way.

Re:Intel Discontinues the Intel Developer Forum; IDF17 Cance... by akuma73 on Monday April 17, 2017 @02:49PM (#14133380)
if you can power them, cool them, and connect them up in a useful way.

Good luck with that. Power costs go up linearly at best with cores if you don't have any more transistor scaling.

Re:Intel Discontinues the Intel Developer Forum; IDF17 Cance... by sbierwagen on Monday April 17, 2017 @03:35PM (#14133749)
Power will always scale linearly with cores, of course, but you could make cores less power-hungry with reversible computing: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reversible_computing

Actually useful reversible logic is, as they say, an open problem.

Re:Intel Discontinues the Intel Developer Forum; IDF17 Cance... by akuma73 on Monday April 17, 2017 @03:41PM (#14133798)
My point was that a new transistor shrink would give you lower power vs. the same transistor in previously larger node. You get more compute-per-watt with small transistors. If scaling stops, then all kinds of things get more difficult.
Re:Intel Discontinues the Intel Developer Forum; IDF17 Cance... by ZephyrP on Monday April 17, 2017 @05:29PM (#14134572)
I have heard that Electrons move about a millimeter second (although electromagnetic emanations propagate at the speed of light). This is allegedly the benefit of 'optical' computing.
Re:Intel Discontinues the Intel Developer Forum; IDF17 Cance... by Animats on Monday April 17, 2017 @07:29PM (#14135338)
Not quite.[1] Propagation in most interconnects is about half the speed of light, because real-world wires have capacitance. (As low as 25% for CAT 5 cable, as high as 90% for open-wire antenna feeds.) Optical fiber runs about 70% of the speed of light. On-chip interconnects run 30%-60% of the speed of light. So there's some propagation delay improvement with optical interconnects, but it's a factor of about 2, not some huge improvement.

[1] http://www.edn.com/electronics-blogs/all-aboard-/4426188/Rul...

Re:Intel Discontinues the Intel Developer Forum; IDF17 Cance... by AlfonsoP on Monday April 17, 2017 @08:31PM (#14135623)
Think outside the box. Current chips have gates on a dozen metal layers measuring ~1µm, but you could scale to 10,000 layers at ~1mm. Sure there are many unsolved challenge to build 10,000 layers, but there is still PLENTY of space for Moore's law to continue in this 3rd dimension...
Re:Intel Discontinues the Intel Developer Forum; IDF17 Cance... by akuma73 on Monday April 17, 2017 @09:05PM (#14135760)
I assume you mean stacking transistors? This has been tried, and there are serious thermal issues. Where does the heat go in the intermediate layers?
Re:Intel Discontinues the Intel Developer Forum; IDF17 Cance... by kec on Monday April 17, 2017 @09:17PM (#14135803)
If you could solve both the heat dissipation and yield problems that 3D chips have you would be a very, very rich man.
Re:Intel Discontinues the Intel Developer Forum; IDF17 Cance... by kccqzy on Monday April 17, 2017 @05:22PM (#14134529)
People said similar things when we reached the wavelength of visible light.
Re:Intel Discontinues the Intel Developer Forum; IDF17 Cance... by ghaff on Monday April 17, 2017 @07:11PM (#14135222)
Yes but that was a cost and engineering issue. The size of atoms is a lot more fundamental. EUV buys you a little more but you still bump into the size of atoms and quantum effects pretty quickly.
Re:Intel Discontinues the Intel Developer Forum; IDF17 Cance... by RandomOpinion on Monday April 17, 2017 @04:09PM (#14133986)
> "People always talk about Moore's Law falling apart, and it seems like people didn't see it coming."

EEs in the semiconductor industry have been talking about it for the past 20 years; they didn't know exactly when it would occur but they knew it was coming. It's only software developers who were blissfully unaware.

EDIT: The interesting thing about the end of Moore's Law from AMD's (and everybody who isn't Intel) perspective is that finally the playing field is moving closer to even. Before, Intel always had the most advanced fab processes because of the vast amounts of money they funneled into it, which meant that everybody else had to have a better architecture than Intel chips just to get equal performance. Now that Intel is losing that process advantage, it should become possible for everyone to compete purely on the basis of architecture again.

Re:Intel Discontinues the Intel Developer Forum; IDF17 Cance... by wtallis on Monday April 17, 2017 @01:48PM (#14132918)
> "But I always assumed whiz-bang mathematicians had already figured out, I dunno, the threshold at which a processor can be nanosized, or like how big a processor could become before the distances became too great that due to the speed of light further computational advancement wasn't possible."

We're nowhere near the absolute limits imposed by the fundamentals of thermodynamics, quantum mechanics, etc. Those are relatively straightforward bounds to calculate but are completely useless for anything but extremely long-term projections.

What we wish we could compute is what the limits are on current manufacturing techniques and incremental advances from that. But we don't know precisely how many incremental improvements we have left to discover before we need to abandon silicon entirely.

Re:Intel Discontinues the Intel Developer Forum; IDF17 Cance... by Symmetry on Monday April 17, 2017 @03:06PM (#14133540)
I was doing some back of the envelope math for a blog post last night[1] and it looks like we're not that far away from the limits of what's possible - at least for non-reversible computing. Getting rid of a bit of information as in a Nand get is always going to cost at least 2.75 zeptoJoules and current transistor technology can do it for an attoJoule, so just another factor of 360 to go. Of course then we can try to transition to reversible computing to get around that[2].

[1]http://hopefullyintersting.blogspot.com/2017/04/the-coming-i...

[2]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reversible_computing

Re:Intel Discontinues the Intel Developer Forum; IDF17 Cance... by wtallis on Monday April 17, 2017 @07:40PM (#14135394)
A factor of 360 is closer than I would have guessed. But that's still at least 8 doublings of compute efficiency. We've never had concrete roadmaps that far out—that would be like scheduling the introduction of FinFETs while Pentium 2s were first hitting the shelves. Nobody's ever been able to predict that far in advance which fabrication technologies will end up being economical at scale and required at which node. (Just look at how well the industry has coped with having to put off EUV so many times.) With the looming end of silicon scaling, those thermodynamic limits certainly don't look any less out of reach.
Re:Intel Discontinues the Intel Developer Forum; IDF17 Cance... by monort on Monday April 17, 2017 @04:50PM (#14134314)
Where did you get the number for attojoule per gate operation?
Re:Intel Discontinues the Intel Developer Forum; IDF17 Cance... by rocqua on Monday April 17, 2017 @03:55PM (#14133904)
If I recall correctly, the lower bound on energy for destroying a bit depends (linearly?) on the temperature. Couldn't performance then be improved by cooling?
Re:Intel Discontinues the Intel Developer Forum; IDF17 Cance... by Symmetry on Monday April 17, 2017 @04:15PM (#14134031)
Yes, you're correct and I probably should have mentioned that.
Re:Intel Discontinues the Intel Developer Forum; IDF17 Cance... by jacquesm on Monday April 17, 2017 @05:26PM (#14134551)
I don't think it will matter much though. Whether you have to remove input power as heat or expend power to cool likely won't make a whole lot of difference. Just that the delta-t will be a lot larger and so it may actually cost more to keep that ultra-cool machine ultra-cool.

Maybe future data-centers will be used to pre-heat the water that goes into the turbines that power the electricity plant, in some kind of perverse version of a perpetuum mobile.

You'd need to make up for the difference lost on each cycle with extra fuel.

Re:Intel Discontinues the Intel Developer Forum; IDF17 Cance... by Symmetry on Monday April 17, 2017 @07:21PM (#14135289)
Or we could put future datacenters in space behind sunshades and get them really cold by default.
Re:Intel Discontinues the Intel Developer Forum; IDF17 Cance... by rocqua on Tuesday April 18, 2017 @03:06PM (#14141873)
You need really big radiators for that. In space, waste heat is a huge problem.
Re:Intel Discontinues the Intel Developer Forum; IDF17 Cance... by jacquesm on Monday April 17, 2017 @07:24PM (#14135307)
Bandwidth might leave something to be desired.
Re:Intel Discontinues the Intel Developer Forum; IDF17 Cance... by ansible on Monday April 17, 2017 @02:11PM (#14133106)
But we don't know precisely how many incremental improvements we have left to discover before we need to abandon silicon entirely.

Well, it is not as if we will just suddenly stop using CMOS, but the end of improvements is in sight:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5_nanometer

If we are willing to putter along with no process improvements whatsoever, then yes, we can keep using 5nm indefinitely. And no doubt there will be incremental improvements in performance and yield at that node.

But we can't, and won't stop there to continue to drive down the cost of computing. It is just the end of the road for CMOS lithography.

Re:Intel Discontinues the Intel Developer Forum; IDF17 Cance... by kcorbitt on Monday April 17, 2017 @04:42PM (#14134240)
> But we can't, and won't stop there to continue to drive down the cost of computing. It is just the end of the road for CMOS lithography.

I mean, is there any reason to believe this is actually true? There's no law that just because something is super useful its price will continue to drop forever. Just check out this chart: https://www.nrdc.org/sites/default/files/import/switchboard/.... The blue line is the inflation-adjusted price of electricity by year. I think it's fair to say that electricity is even more vital to the modern economy than compute power, and that having more of it for cheaper would unquestionably raise the standard of living for everyone. There's also a functional and mostly-free market for its production. And yet its real cost has remained essentially stagnant over the last 40+ years.

Now, there are obviously reasons why Moore's law has been a thing for so long (probably a lot to do with the exponentially increasing number of chips we use and the experience curve http://www.economist.com/node/14298944), but the last 50 years in chips may have been more the exception than the rule.

Re:Intel Discontinues the Intel Developer Forum; IDF17 Cance... by ansible on Monday April 17, 2017 @05:21PM (#14134516)
I mean, is there any reason to believe this is actually true? There's no law that just because something is super useful its price will continue to drop forever.

The entire computer industry, well, the entire technology industry is founded on compute power becoming cheaper each year.

What happens to these billion-dollar companies when that is no longer the case? Will Intel's investors be OK with it when they announce that they won't be coming out with anything much better than what they've currently got? Or will they be punished (severely) in the stock market after such an announcement? [1]

The board of directors will respond to pressure from the investors (or get replaced), and will replace company leadership if needed to continue advancement in technology.

And so they (or someone else) will invest in new technologies to move beyond CMOS lithography, such as molecular nanotechnology. Which will disrupt everything else related to technology and biology as well.

[1] I read articles about gamers buying 5-year old Xeon processors for their game machines for $70 USD which are competitive with current-generation i7 desktop processors that cost much more. If Intel can't sell new processors that are effectively better than older ones, that's going to be a real problem for them, and the stock market will eventually notice.

Re:Intel Discontinues the Intel Developer Forum; IDF17 Cance... by jacquesm on Monday April 17, 2017 @05:29PM (#14134574)
> The entire computer industry, well, the entire technology industry is founded on compute power becoming cheaper each year.

No, we've just gotten used to it. So now, like any junkie with a bad habit we're going to have to get used to doing without that. Or deal with the increased electricity bill.

> The board of directors will respond to pressure from the investors (or get replaced), and will replace company leadership if needed to continue advancement in technology.

Company leadership being replaced is not going to magically change the laws of nature.

At some point even Intel investors will have to accept that there are such things as physical laws and nature doesn't care one bit about your quarterly earnings reports.

Re:Intel Discontinues the Intel Developer Forum; IDF17 Cance... by ansible on Tuesday April 18, 2017 @12:11PM (#14140014)
Company leadership being replaced is not going to magically change the laws of nature.

Well, that's just it, we haven't hit the physical limits of computing yet. But we are indeed close to the limits of what is practical with CMOS photo-lithography.

At some point even Intel investors will have to accept that there are such things as physical laws and nature doesn't care one bit about your quarterly earnings reports.

This acceptance process will be quite painful, and someone, some way, some how will step in to promise greater returns.

Re:Intel Discontinues the Intel Developer Forum; IDF17 Cance... by ghaff on Monday April 17, 2017 @06:14PM (#14134890)
CMOS process scaling has been a pretty amazing unicorn. The fact that neither Intel nor anyone else has unveiled a CMOS 2.0 isn't for lack of research. There are various possibilities but they're either tactical and limited or very much still in the Labs phase.

I agree that the consequences of compute power no longer advancing year-to-year will be significant but I can't agree this is a case of nobody's trying hard enough.

Re:Intel Discontinues the Intel Developer Forum; IDF17 Cance... by ansible on Tuesday April 18, 2017 @12:36PM (#14140264)
I agree that the consequences of compute power no longer advancing year-to-year will be significant but I can't agree this is a case of nobody's trying hard enough.

I look at these yuuuuge teams at Intel working on their processors, and what kind of returns are we getting on that investment? How much are they, in comparison, investing in molecular nanotechnology related research?

I look at this, and it is mostly software-ish things:

http://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/education/highered/re...

There is some hardware stuff, further down the page, and some talk of the post-CMOS world. But I don't see enough. In my view, they're not placing nearly enough emphasis on the foundational technologies they need for their business.

Re:Intel Discontinues the Intel Developer Forum; IDF17 Cance... by ghaff on Tuesday April 18, 2017 @02:05PM (#14141260)
Not being privy to the details of Intel's R&D budget I don't really have an opinion on how their dollars are allocated. I will say that development tends to benefit from large teams more than speculative future research. I'm sure a very large proportion of their R&D budget goes to where revenue is going to come from over the next few years.

It's also the case that Intel has become less forthcoming on their semiconductor research directions so I wouldn't necessarily expect there to be a lot of information on their website.

Re:Intel Discontinues the Intel Developer Forum; IDF17 Cance... by akuma73 on Monday April 17, 2017 @02:50PM (#14133397)
What are your thoughts on the drivers for reducing the cost of computing beyond CMOS?
Re:Intel Discontinues the Intel Developer Forum; IDF17 Cance... by komali2 on Monday April 17, 2017 @04:24PM (#14134099)
>Abandon silicon entirely

Abandon for what? In many series they hand-wave this away using words like "hyperspace substrate" or "dark matter" or "unobtanium." Do we have an idea of what we could use in reality?

Re:Intel Discontinues the Intel Developer Forum; IDF17 Cance... by komali2 on Tuesday April 18, 2017 @02:25AM (#14136885)
I'm just curious, people. I know​nothing about this.
Re:Intel Discontinues the Intel Developer Forum; IDF17 Cance... by samfisher83 on Monday April 17, 2017 @03:09PM (#14133576)
The problem is at some point the gates start getting to the size of an atom. How do you get smaller than an atom? I don't think you can.
Re:Intel Discontinues the Intel Developer Forum; IDF17 Cance... by komali2 on Monday April 17, 2017 @04:26PM (#14134119)
Well uh, can you squeeze the atoms closer together? I didn't think they were solid objects, but clouds of electrons? I guess eventually the nuclear power or whatever it is that pushes atoms apart becomes too strong?
Re:Intel Discontinues the Intel Developer Forum; IDF17 Cance... by ganfortran on Monday April 17, 2017 @04:03PM (#14133954)
Moore's law has long lost its initial indicative power, that implies the actual computing performance goes linearly with the number transistors we have on the chip, and became merely a marketing strategy. Now it is time that marketing value is also fading.
Re:Intel Discontinues the Intel Developer Forum; IDF17 Cance... by dep_b on Monday April 17, 2017 @02:05PM (#14133053)
I see Intel falling apart, ARM-based chipmakers are still ramping up the curve as usual.
Re:Intel Discontinues the Intel Developer Forum; IDF17 Cance... by kodfodrasz on Monday April 17, 2017 @02:44PM (#14133335)
Because they are not there yet...
Re:Intel Discontinues the Intel Developer Forum; IDF17 Cance... by rbanffy on Monday April 17, 2017 @02:57PM (#14133456)
When an ARM chip reaches the performance of a Xeon, it'll draw about as much power as a Xeon. There is no magic - computation has a minimum energy cost.

What can happen is to make chips simpler in that less computation is spent in instruction decoding, tracking, scheduling and more is spent on actual execution.

Re:Intel Discontinues the Intel Developer Forum; IDF17 Cance... by Zaak on Monday April 17, 2017 @07:06PM (#14135194)
Back in the 80s, instruction decode was a large part of the logic in a CPU (thus the motivation for RISC). Currently, it's a tiny fraction. It's been many years since a simpler instruction set was useful for reducing the complexity of the CPU.
Re:Intel Discontinues the Intel Developer Forum; IDF17 Cance... by wtallis on Monday April 17, 2017 @09:24PM (#14135835)
But that portion of the power budget hasn't shifted at all back toward the computational units. It's been taken over by register renaming and instruction reordering and all manner of caches.
Re:Intel Discontinues the Intel Developer Forum; IDF17 Cance... by adrianratnapala on Tuesday April 18, 2017 @01:28AM (#14136698)
But is RISC the solution to that problem? Having lots of registers helps, I guess. But the amd64 already has quite a lot.

These problems seem to be what VLIW architectures like tried to to solve. Is that sort of architecture going to make a comeback? Will even that help?

Re:Intel Discontinues the Intel Developer Forum; IDF17 Cance... by rbanffy on Tuesday April 18, 2017 @07:56PM (#14144221)
> But the amd64 already has quite a lot.

16 registers is not a lot when compared to other architectures. POWER, SPARC, Arm64 and MIPS have 32 (SPARC is weird, but 32 are always visible). Itanium has 128.

Re:Intel Discontinues the Intel Developer Forum; IDF17 Cance... by luca_ing on Thursday April 20, 2017 @07:09AM (#14155650)
I'm far from an expert on CPU architectures, but I suppose there are diminishing returns. Most of my functions use less than 16 values, and those that do may well iterate over more than 128.

Also you're probably aware that modern CPUs have many more physical registers, they just don't expose them all at the same time.

E.g. AMD Zen physically has 168 integer and 160 floating-point registers. Of which you can only use 16 at a time, but to my uninformed eye that looks like a reasonable trade-off.

Re:Intel Discontinues the Intel Developer Forum; IDF17 Cance... by Zaak on Tuesday April 18, 2017 @11:34AM (#14139701)
If you had a "sufficiently smart compiler" you wouldn't need register renaming and instruction reordering, but such a compiler has consistently failed to appear. That's a big part of the whole Itanium fiasco.

If you want your CPU to run fast, you have to pipeline instructions and you need caches that can run at full CPU speed. It's easy to design a CPU without all the complexity, but it will be slow. No one knows how to do both simple and fast. It's probably impossible.

Re:Intel Discontinues the Intel Developer Forum; IDF17 Cance... by Someone on Monday April 17, 2017 @05:31PM (#14134590)
I would think that, nowadays, reading and writing memory are major bottlenecks, too, to the extent that spending time decoding instructions can be a gain if it allows for a denser instruction stream.

For machine learning applications, I don't think the end game is to have complex CPUs, though.

Assuming that brains have managed to find more than a local optimum and that our understanding of them is somewhat accurate, ditching all those caches, translation buffers, etc. most of the bus bandwidth, and moving computation towards memory is the way to (eventually; we need to learn a lot before that's feasible) go for machine learning applications.

Does the brain even have instruction decoders?

Re:Intel Discontinues the Intel Developer Forum; IDF17 Cance... by copperx on Monday April 17, 2017 @09:10PM (#14135778)
> Does the brain even have instruction decoders?

I can't even begin to understand this question. It makes no sense at all.

Re:Intel Discontinues the Intel Developer Forum; IDF17 Cance... by kodfodrasz on Monday April 17, 2017 @03:04PM (#14133517)
Yes, I implied this.
Re:Intel Discontinues the Intel Developer Forum; IDF17 Cance... by anodin3 on Monday April 17, 2017 @03:06PM (#14133542)
>When an ARM chip reaches the performance of a Xeon, it'll draw about as much power as a Xeon.

There is absolutely no reason to reach that conclusion.

Re:Intel Discontinues the Intel Developer Forum; IDF17 Cance... by dom0 on Monday April 17, 2017 @04:57PM (#14134361)
Actually there is plenty of precedent for that conclusion. Scaling CPU cores up (=efficient but high performance cores) is super-hard -- making low-power cores is pretty simple in comparison --; almost everyone fails or failed at it. Currently there are two companies on the planet that do that sort of thing, and not so long ago it was only one. Notable names that failed hard in this are: Intel, DEC, Sun, Fujitsu, AMD, IBM, HP, Intel, as well as SGI, IBM and AMD.
Re:Intel Discontinues the Intel Developer Forum; IDF17 Cance... by rbanffy on Monday April 17, 2017 @06:15PM (#14134896)
It's not unlike designing a race car. You can put a monster engine, but it'll add weight, require more fuel, add inertia which will demand a more complicated suspension and wider, heavier tires to be able to do fast curves, and so on.

The careful balance of every aspect of a modern CPU is an art very few people practice. I'd say IBM and Sun have't left this game just yet for very high performance platforms, but don't expect a Core i3 coming out of either.

Re:Intel Discontinues the Intel Developer Forum; IDF17 Cance... by dom0 on Tuesday April 18, 2017 @07:50AM (#14138049)
True, IBM and Fujitsu/Sun are still competitive in some niches, but not on power efficiency and not for general purpose application. Last time I looked IBM was 3-5 times worse perf/Watt in SAP benchmarks. Of course IBM is still an option in these specialized applications if you just need that raw power, but no one's going to run a data centre on that silicon.
Re:Intel Discontinues the Intel Developer Forum; IDF17 Cance... by Scuds on Monday April 17, 2017 @06:43PM (#14135064)
If everything gets cracked to micro-ops anyway, how much effect does your general instruction(not SIMD/Altivec/Thumb etc) set _really_ have on performance and power consumption?
Re:Intel Discontinues the Intel Developer Forum; IDF17 Cance... by bsder on Monday April 17, 2017 @04:21PM (#14134068)
Power goes as C v^2 f. At best. That doesn't change.

If you look at a particular technology node, one of the best correlations of power consumption is chip area. It's pretty much a straight line.

Now, that has probably changed a bit with how aggressively we turn chip areas off nowadays. So, we probably have to alter that to power consumption vs active chip area--but it's still a fixed line for a technology node.

Re:Intel Discontinues the Intel Developer Forum; IDF17 Cance... by rbanffy on Monday April 17, 2017 @06:16PM (#14134902)
Speaking of chip area, one possible path is designing ISAs that require less silicon to efficiently decode, reorder and retire.

It'd be, of course, totally incompatible with what we have now.

Re:Intel Discontinues the Intel Developer Forum; IDF17 Cance... by bsder on Monday April 17, 2017 @06:20PM (#14134933)
We call that MIPS or Alpha, and it lost to x86 compatibility.

Whose only competitor is ARM, which is little better in terms of decoding complexity.

Re:Intel Discontinues the Intel Developer Forum; IDF17 Cance... by wolfgke on Monday April 17, 2017 @08:12PM (#14135533)
> Whose only competitor is ARM, which is little better in terms of decoding complexity.

T32 indeed has this problem, but not A32. With ARMv8 ARM released the A64 instruction set, which is designed new from ground up and is to my knowledge also not hard to decode. Nevertheless decoding complexity is not that relevant anymore. What is much harder and involves more die area is (super-)pipelining the execution, out-of-order execution etc. But even all this together: What consumes most die area are typically the caches.

Re:Intel Discontinues the Intel Developer Forum; IDF17 Cance... by rbanffy on Tuesday April 18, 2017 @03:45AM (#14137099)
Caches are transistor-dense, it's hard to optimize them further. Maybe something like Transmeta's architecture, a hybrid software/hardware approach would yield some improvement.