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Re:How not to create traffic jams: Don’t let people park for... by taurath on Saturday April 08, 2017 @03:02PM (#14068407)
Those are luxuries like a cell phone is a luxury. There does come a point where there's no acceptable alternative - a 1 hour bus line I know through the city of Seattle takes 10 minutes by car. Why should the city and property owners have to subsidize cars? They shouldn't, but they need some way for people to get to them and flow people through the city, or they will cease to exist.
Re:How not to create traffic jams: Don’t let people park for... by curun1r on Saturday April 08, 2017 @05:41PM (#14069197)
I think the article's authors would say that you have it backwards. You can't have acceptable alternatives while cities are forcing businesses and developers to subsidize car driving. How can the alternatives compete when the market is subsidizing their competition?

What this article is positing is that the conditions you describe are emergent, not determining. Change the policies and the conditions will adjust after a brief, albeit painful period.

Re:How not to create traffic jams: Don’t let people park for... by jhayward on Saturday April 08, 2017 @08:01PM (#14069752)
> Change the policies and the conditions will adjust after a brief, albeit painful period.

This is an unproven assertion, which in my view is most likely political dogma rather than analysis.

Take a look at parking and alternative transportation in Philadelphia, for instance. It's nothing but pain for everyone and has been for at least 30 years.

City zoning codes requiring off-street parking on a per-dwelling or per-sq foot basis at least has the aspect of not letting the situation deteriorate into unlivable squalor, with no good alternatives. It may be that this pushes the problem to the transportation network, true, but that's a different problem to solve.

If you want to take away, or let developer profit-driven markets take away a major quality of life issue then you'd better provide a better, cheaper, more individually useful alternative first.

Re:How not to create traffic jams: Don’t let people park for... by Buge on Saturday April 08, 2017 @03:35PM (#14068570)
>Why should the city and property owners have to subsidize cars? They shouldn't, but they need some way for people to get to them and flow people through the city, or they will cease to exist.

So cities should remove all parking minimum laws, and let apartments and businesses decide how much parking to build. That's exactly what the article is saying.

Re:How not to create traffic jams: Don’t let people park for... by derblitzmann on Saturday April 08, 2017 @08:26PM (#14069813)
At least in Washington/Seattle, there is a gas tax which helps pay for road maintenance. But of course increases the price of gas. I'm lucky in that I can walk to work (~40 minutes), and the bus ride is roughly 5 minutes faster if I make it to the stop as it comes in.
Re:How not to create traffic jams: Don’t let people park for... by taurath on Saturday April 08, 2017 @04:47PM (#14068935)
If everyone did that, the value of their property would go down unless the city picked up the tab for alternate transport. Either way the city pays
Re:How not to create traffic jams: Don’t let people park for... by Buge on Saturday April 08, 2017 @06:08PM (#14069324)
Why would the value of their property go down? Apple's new headquarters has 318k ft^2 of office space and 325k ft^2 of legally required parking spaces. If Apple could flexibly choose what they wanted to do with their land, they could use their land in more useful ways, making it more valuable to them.
Re:How not to create traffic jams: Don’t let people park for... by taurath on Saturday April 08, 2017 @07:08PM (#14069574)
If people can't get there, or park there, then its less valuable to them. There's freeway capacity and bus routes to think about, and I'm 100% sure that they planned their campus alongside city planners in cupertino and santa clara county. That area of Wolfe Rd. would be totally overrun if there wasn't enough parking not only for current employees but future ones as well.
Re:How not to create traffic jams: Don’t let people park for... by Buge on Saturday April 08, 2017 @09:38PM (#14070016)
It's in Apple's interest to optimize their transportation situation. Because Apple built the absolute minimum amount of parking, it seems to indicate that Apple thinks less parking than that is necessary for optimal performance.

Instead of investing money in parking, they could have spent that money on private buses, public bus passes for employees, bike parking, bike subsidies, Uber subsidies, sponsored carpools, bike paths, or nearby high density corporate housing.

As for freeway capacity, if we reduce free parking, that will cause less people to drive, making the freeways more clear.

Re:How not to create traffic jams: Don’t let people park for... by tetrep on Saturday April 08, 2017 @07:34PM (#14069659)
> If people can't get there, or park there, then its less valuable to them.

So the natural response to that is to force businesses to have greater value? Is this not exactly what market forces would do naturally? A business with insufficient parking would have less value than one with, and would therefore compete less effectively.

Re:How not to create traffic jams: Don’t let people park for... by zifnab06 on Saturday April 08, 2017 @03:18PM (#14068502)
My commute to my office is 90 minutes by bus on a good day. It's 15 minutes driving outside of rush hour.

If you need to go downtown, Seattle buses are great. Anything else (especially east/West corridors to the north) is a huge joke.

Re:How not to create traffic jams: Don’t let people park for... by pmiller2 on Saturday April 08, 2017 @05:02PM (#14069024)
Right now, it would take me 41 minutes by car and 48 minutes by BART to reach my office in SF, according to Google Maps.It would cost me a bridge toll and an exorbitant amount in parking to drive, and wouldn't even be much faster, due to 17 minutes of traffic delays (which is fairly typical).

Needless to say, I take BART, because ~$4 in fares beats spending ~$25-30 in parking and tolls for the privilege of sitting in traffic half the trip.

Re:How not to create traffic jams: Don’t let people park for... by Neliquat on Sunday April 09, 2017 @12:50AM (#14070533)
So you live in one of the best case parts of the world, and it still barely works out?
Re:How not to create traffic jams: Don’t let people park for... by r00fus on Sunday April 09, 2017 @01:20AM (#14070624)
Gotta say SF Bay is definitely NOT a best case public transportation scenario. Try Hong Kong, Paris or London.

Of course those places you don't just pay for parking, you pay congestion charges, high gas prices and steep registration prices (HK) as well. Oh and toll roads.

It's quite stunning the amount of things that are under costed in the US to enable our car economy.

Re:How not to create traffic jams: Don’t let people park for... by pmiller2 on Sunday April 09, 2017 @12:57AM (#14070558)
Pretty much, and that's only because my office is 10 minutes walk from BART.
Re:How not to create traffic jams: Don’t let people park for... by chrismcb on Sunday April 09, 2017 @01:38AM (#14070677)
I used to drive my wife to work, down the 405 corridor. With traffic 30-45 minutes, an hour on a bad day. But when she takes the bus it takes close to two hours, mainly because she had to transfer. Going to Seattle is better, if I catch one of the few express buses. Taing the express is usually faster than driving. But miss the express, then it takes closer to two hours
Re:How not to create traffic jams: Don’t let people park for... by drdeadringer on Saturday April 08, 2017 @04:44PM (#14068922)
> It's 15 minutes driving outside of rush hour.

Is it 90 minutes inside of rush hour?

Re:How not to create traffic jams: Don’t let people park for... by sogen on Saturday April 08, 2017 @05:52PM (#14069258)
I think he meant to say "on a good day"
Re:How not to create traffic jams: Don’t let people park for... by dmoy on Saturday April 08, 2017 @06:52PM (#14069501)
Unless he drives through Mercer and then maybe it is 90 minutes in rush hour lol. Takes my wife that long on occasion to get home from downtown Seattle because of the Amazon Mercer traffic
Re:How not to create traffic jams: Don’t let people park for... by grogenaut on Saturday April 08, 2017 @09:28PM (#14069989)
worst case from south bellevue via 90/merce to belltown takes me 55 minutes in rush hour. Well a month ago when that wreck was on i-5 I took 405 south to i5 north to belltown and that took 1:30, eg 90 minutes.

If I go in my preferred slot it's 45 minutes max, usually 33 minutes. If I go 10am, 6:45 pm, it's 22 and 20 minutes. Fastest I've ever made it is 19 minutes and that was doing well over the speed limit the whole time on a motorcycle.

Re:How not to create traffic jams: Don’t let people park for... by dmoy on Monday April 10, 2017 @12:21AM (#14075994)
Heading to East side is better, yea. And actually, if you are already on Mercer it's not as bad. Getting across from Westlake ish means the bus routinely goes slower than walking speed. Can walk to Fremont faster...
Re:How not to create traffic jams: Don’t let people park for... by Sharlin on Saturday April 08, 2017 @06:46PM (#14069476)
Cellphones don't have the sort of negative externalities that cars do, and there are no statutes that actively make externalities worse, either.
Re:How not to create traffic jams: Don’t let people park for... by plandis on Saturday April 08, 2017 @03:11PM (#14068465)
I don't even own a car in Seattle. It's clearly not a necessity as I, my fiancé, and several of our friends are all careless and do just fine.

If anything its drivers that do stupid stuff like block bus lanes, don't know how to merge, etc... that are a bigger problem to public transit.

Re:How not to create traffic jams: Don’t let people park for... by kbenson on Saturday April 08, 2017 @03:24PM (#14068535)
> It's clearly not a necessity as I, my fiancé, and several of our friends are all careless and do just fine.

Please consider people living in other circumstances and with other responsibilities before making blanket statements for all based on the experience of yourself and your close social group. It's entirely possibly that you and your group do not encompass all the situations that may be found. For example, having a child makes not having a car extremely problematic. Being 30-60 minutes late to pick up you child is often unacceptable, and in many circumstances (such as childcare) may net you quite large fees if it happens often.

Re:How not to create traffic jams: Don’t let people park for... by curun1r on Saturday April 08, 2017 @05:55PM (#14069269)
That being unacceptable is based on conditions where owning a car is subsidized by free parking. Remove those subsidies and there would now be a market for more flexible childcare. Your argument amounts to a tautology. A car is necessary under current driving conditions is not the same thing as a car being necessary under any driving conditions. There are many places around the world where most people don't own cars. They still manage to figure out how to raise children, often while being substantially poorer than we are in the states. I'm confident that if we create the right environment that discourages car ownership, we'll figure it out here too.
Re:How not to create traffic jams: Don’t let people park for... by lovemenot on Saturday April 08, 2017 @07:36PM (#14069668)
Quite so. My wife and I have raised three children into their teens without ever having owned a car. This was not problematic, precisely because we live in Tokyo, a city mentioned in the article as having enlightened policies on parking and public transport.
Re:How not to create traffic jams: Don’t let people park for... by candiodari on Sunday April 09, 2017 @02:54AM (#14070861)
So everyone can do this ? What is your average expenses per month, you know, basic stuff. Apartment (rent/mortgage), transport, non-restaurant food, etc.

And how does that compare to average income around you ?

This is the argument everyone in SF makes. "Just move into the city. Use an (electrical) bike. Yes there's the homeless but you learn to steer around them quickly". And then you look at the rent, and the average income. Needless to say, this is not a reasonable suggestion.

Re:How not to create traffic jams: Don’t let people park for... by curun1r on Sunday April 09, 2017 @03:48AM (#14070991)
Citing a dysfunctional housing market like San Francisco is instructive, but only because it provides contrast to the situation the poster you're replying to was talking about. Tokyo may be expensive, but it also manages to house more than 15 times the residents of San Francisco. Not all of the almost 14m people living in Tokyo are rich.

And for those that don't like living in that kind of population density, it's surprisingly easy to live in other cities. The public transportation system there is amazing...far better than even Europe can offer. The Tokyo Metro goes everywhere in the city and the transfers between the Metro and the high-speed rail lines are timed, so you don't waste time waiting. When we took the bullet train, I saw people commuting in excess of 100 mi to/from work. That may sound like a lot to an American, but it was around an hour of commute time with their infrastructure. And since they don't drive during their commutes, they can spend the time on the train doing something entertaining/productive.

It's really eye opening what can happen when you don't prioritize cars in a city. If San Francisco were similarly prioritized and we invested in transportation infrastructure the way the Japanese do, you wouldn't have to live there to work there. You could live in the Stockton area, where the median home price is under $300k, and you'd only have to dodge the homeless people on your way between the metro and your work. And you and your spouse could share a car instead of each needing one since you'd only need it for local trips around your home city rather than commuting.

Re:How not to create traffic jams: Don’t let people park for... by kbenson on Saturday April 08, 2017 @07:34PM (#14069662)
> Your argument amounts to a tautology.

Only when you make up some argument for me...

> A car is necessary under current driving conditions is not the same thing as a car being necessary under any driving conditions.

That wasn't my argument at all. I was simple stating that when making an argument using personal experience as the basis for what is and isn't "necessary" is likely to leave out a lot of people with valid concerns. My example wasn't to push an agenda for or against cards, but to show how some people may come to an entirely different conclusion about what is and isn't necessary, currently.

Re:How not to create traffic jams: Don’t let people park for... by revelation on Saturday April 08, 2017 @03:38PM (#14068590)
Yes, clearly it's a problem to not have a car when living a lifestyle designed entirely around a car. We get that, we can skip the 100 identical posts that have appeared and are yet to appear.

The point is: what are you going to do about it? Because clearly city populations are growing and people are exceedingly unhappy with vastly subsidizing a shrinking minority that expects to drive door-to-door, or better yet, lives in a cheap suburb but expects city dwellers to sacrifice money and space for their daily commute.

I think you will find in places that cater much less to cars people are very understanding if you miss a bus. Though likely they won't notice, because there are simply more buses and transit options around, so your delay won't be an hour. It seems getting rid of free parking, as suggested by the OP, is a good start, no?

Re:How not to create traffic jams: Don’t let people park for... by closeparen on Saturday April 08, 2017 @04:00PM (#14068694)
I expect city dwellers to recognize that their aesthetic distaste for car infrastructure doesn't come close to the very real impact on someone's life of tripling all their travel times.

As long as we're humoring city dwellers being tired of things, we will never have housing construction (they've got ownership or rent control already, and they're tired of tall buildings). As long as we're humoring what they want to pay for, we'll never have decent transit (they can walk or bike, why should they pay taxes for your bus?).

There are reasonable positions to be in which don't require parking downtown. Cheap housing in the center. Cheap housing near train stations and a quick ride in. Abundant parking at train stations and a quick ride in. Decouple cities from employment so that they really are luxuries and not crucial access to opportunity. Keep job growth in balance with walkable housing growth and don't allow development of suburbs.

Any one of those is a great thing to strive for. Eliminating parking by itself just makes the city less livable.

Re:How not to create traffic jams: Don’t let people park for... by drdeadringer on Saturday April 08, 2017 @04:43PM (#14068913)
> As long as we're humoring what they want to pay for, we'll never have decent transit (they can walk or bike, why should they pay taxes for your bus?).

Honest question: is there really "paying for transit" hate? The only "transit hate" I've seen ranges around various forms of "it sucks" e.g. "never a bus when I need one" punctuated by "5 of the same bus at the same time" and "always late". I'm happy to pay for transit, just as I am up for sidewalks and bike lanes.

Also: how does one "decouple cities from employment"? And how does a surge of oasis-style job centers divorce an employee from needing a car to get there?

Re:How not to create traffic jams: Don’t let people park for... by closeparen on Saturday April 08, 2017 @05:09PM (#14069051)
A basic car is practically free compared to basic housing. It's not necessary to divorce employees from needing cars, any more than it's necessary to divorce them from needing housing.

It is necessary to divorce employees from trying to drive (mostly) the same routes at the same times, because there is no solution to car transportation at scale without traffic jams. The "solutions" (congestion pricing, less parking, etc) are to reduce the scale. It is necessary to divorce employees from competing with each other for such tiny slices of the city where the commute is reasonable, because paying an extra $2000/mo just for land value is such a soul-crushing waste of effort and resources. It is necessary to aggressively migrate the fleet of cars to electrics.

Rush hour traffic in small town or city is still going 60mph, and living "downtown" isn't nearly so expensive because there's less competition, and little drastically wealthier competition. (Good look competing with tech workers for nicely located apartments in SF, or bankers for nicely located apartments in Manhattan, if you aren't one).

See: SF opposition to tech shuttles, Muni expansion, Caltrain extension. I guess those aren't really about cost, but there's a common thread of "I don't like the noise" and "I don't like the kind of people that transportation brings in to my quiet neighborhood" and "we shouldn't be making it more attractive for gentrifiers to live here."

Re:How not to create traffic jams: Don’t let people park for... by drdeadringer on Saturday April 08, 2017 @06:19PM (#14069378)
> "I don't like the kind of people that transportation brings in to my quiet neighborhood"

I see this on NextDoor whenever VTA LiteRail improvements are discussed. Possibility of a Los Gatos [or Netflix] stop? "Criminal Homeless will invade our city". Maybe, but I won't see you complaining when you go to a 49rs game in person at the stadium and take VTA so you don't get stuck in car traffic.

> It is necessary to divorce employees from trying to drive (mostly) the same routes at the same times

How is this possible without massive and awesome public transit? Rush hour traffic exists because "every employer" wants "every employee" at their desk at 6-9am.

Re:How not to create traffic jams: Don’t let people park for... by closeparen on Saturday April 08, 2017 @06:44PM (#14069473)
I think the best solution is for employees to drive the unique parts of their routes (home to suburban transit stations with parking structures), and then ride fast, frequent, reasonably comfortable train service for the "trunk" part of the route.

Use cars where they're the best option. Use public transit where it's the best option. Take 5 minutes to transfer in between.

Re:How not to create traffic jams: Don’t let people park for... by mirimir on Saturday April 08, 2017 @06:49PM (#14069489)
Even better, ride your bicycle to the train or bus station, and take it with you. At the destination, ride to work.
Re:How not to create traffic jams: Don’t let people park for... by closeparen on Saturday April 08, 2017 @07:10PM (#14069578)
You need secure bike parking on the suburban side and bike share on the urban side. A typical commuter train car can take maybe 3 bikes per 100 passengers. Carrying your bike only works because so few people do it. Fortunately, the Bay Area already has this.

If you find the Spartan lifestyle compelling, sure, bike to the train station. From a planning perspective, it's a no-brainer to put the infrastructure there to facilitate it.

Just don't force it on the rest of us. (My mornings would go from pleasant and relaxing to miserable, getting in an overcrowded train car while sweaty fucking sucks, and I would have to stop running - if I'm capable of cycling the next morning, I didn't run hard enough the night before. If only my area were a little flatter).

Also, you often don't need a whole car. Scooters and low-displacement motorcycles are cheap and fun. E-bikes are getting cheaper. I mostly ride my little Honda motorcycle to the train now, when the weather cooperates. BART's ample motorcycle parking is pleasantly surprising, and a very good idea.

Re:How not to create traffic jams: Don’t let people park for... by drdeadringer on Saturday April 08, 2017 @07:15PM (#14069593)
> E-bikes are getting cheaper.

Just yesterday I learned of the NYC hate against e-bikes. I hope that whatever red tape there is surrounding e-bikes gets cleared up and understood.

Re:How not to create traffic jams: Don’t let people park for... by kbenson on Saturday April 08, 2017 @10:47PM (#14070186)
Wouldn't that just result in giant parking structures at the suburban transit stations? It seems like it's less a solution than a mitigation.
Re:How not to create traffic jams: Don’t let people park for... by closeparen on Sunday April 09, 2017 @03:06AM (#14070888)
Yes, it would. The problem stated here are traffic jams and the waste of urban land, and this has neither of those problems. What are your objections?

I suppose it would be nice to build tall, dense housing around the station, but people living in the suburbs are expressing their preference for more, cheaper space per person and lower building heights, and would be extremely unlikely to authorize a microcosm of the city inside their suburb.

If we can solve the "people don't want tall buildings" problem, why not put them inside the city where their occupants are in walking/biking distance, rather than relying on expensive trains?

Re:How not to create traffic jams: Don’t let people park for... by kbenson on Sunday April 09, 2017 @03:46AM (#14070989)
> Yes, it would. ... What are your objections?

I'm thinking that if we look at the numbers we might actually find it makes the problem worse, but in other areas. We have very heavy traffic areas currently, but spread over at least a few square miles, which allows that traffic to route to the available spaces through all the available roads. Giant parking structures at specific points along rail would move a large chunk of that traffic to those structures, but those structures are also much more condensed points for traffic

Simply put, if you think urban traffic is bad, imagine trying to get to a specific parking structure along with a couple thousand other people all at the same time. Instead of a thousand different businesses over a hundred or more roads, it's a few structures, each with limited ingress and egress routes, and limited entrances and exits. Worse than navigating the parking structure at the mall at Christmas, but every weekday as the new normal.

Much better, in my opinion, would be a fleet of autonomous buses and vans with ad-hoc ride-sharing. Since they use the normal road system, they can reach much closer to peoples homes. I actually ran the numbers on this in a comment a few months back (although not very thoroughly)[1].

1: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13172888

Re:How not to create traffic jams: Don’t let people park for... by drdeadringer on Saturday April 08, 2017 @07:11PM (#14069579)
> Use cars for the unique portion.

Fair enough. I also like the walk//bike suggestion also made here for this consideration.

Re:How not to create traffic jams: Don’t let people park for... by kbenson on Saturday April 08, 2017 @04:23PM (#14068810)
My comment was about making proclamations about what is easy or not for the majority based on the experiences of a minority. I'm not making any claims that cars are a requirement, just that when deciding policy that affects many people in the area, considering all those people and finding solutions for problems you might create for those people should be important. I'm not really sure what point you're trying to make from that.

> I think you will find in places that cater much less to cars people are very understanding if you miss a bus.

I think you'll find daycares, which are businesses which employ people that they pay, are less inclined to keep one or two people on staff and extra thirty minutes for you because you're running late than you think they are. Most daycares I know of have it clearly outlined in the terms and conditions you sign, if you are more than 15 minutes or so late, they'll charge you anywhere from $10-$20.

Re:How not to create traffic jams: Don’t let people park for... by jacobolus on Saturday April 08, 2017 @06:10PM (#14069336)
A car-centric society is “good” for 20–60 year-old non-disabled people who can afford to pay for them, very young children who need to be carried around, or anyone who can afford to hire someone to drive for them, in a place with low to medium population density (e.g. rural towns, suburbs). They’re especially convenient for people who need to carry around large amounts of gear, or go to isolated places.

They’re terrible for school-age children, the disabled, the drunk, the elderly, the poor; terrible for commuting solo to-and-from work in rush-hour traffic (causes huge anxiety for commuters vs. other types of commute); and terrible anywhere with high enough density that air pollution and traffic get concentrated.

Additionally they are a hugely inefficient use of a society’s capital and energy/carbon budget vs. other modes of transportation, tend to lead to municipal planning which is hugely inefficient and environmentally destructive, and crowd out other modes of transportation leading to horribly slow and indirect bus routes, etc.

Finally, they are tremendously dangerous, one of the leading causes of death among young healthy people.

Re:How not to create traffic jams: Don’t let people park for... by dsfyu404ed on Saturday April 08, 2017 @09:14PM (#14069960)
>They’re terrible for ...the elderly

On what grounds?

Re:How not to create traffic jams: Don’t let people park for... by jacobolus on Saturday April 08, 2017 @10:24PM (#14070143)
Obviously there isn’t a sharp age cut-off, but many elderly people start having problems with vision, hand-eye coordination, reaction time, joints, memory, ...

Often elderly people’s driving skill deteriorates before they realize it or they are unwilling to accept the loss of mobility, putting themselves and other people on the road at risk.

When elderly people do accept that they won’t drive anymore, in a car centric society they are suddenly dramatically hindered in their ability to lead a normal life. They become much more dependent on constant care and attention, and are often forced to move into a dedicated retirement home, further alienating them from their life-long communities of institutions and friends.

Places where it is possible to walk to the store, walk to visit friends, walk to the subway station, walk to coffeeshops and restaurants, walk to concerts and museums, etc. are much better for the elderly than suburban sprawl. People can remain independent much longer, because there is more available community infrastructure nearby.

Additionally, maintaining a routine with a decent amount of daily walking is very beneficial to people’s health.

Re:How not to create traffic jams: Don’t let people park for... by Spooky23 on Saturday April 08, 2017 @06:57PM (#14069520)
Citation?

Where are the urban populations growing? In reality, you have a meager recovery of urban populations that have been in a tailspin since 1960. Capital is cheaper than ever, and the bargains to be had in the urban core are bringing in the cool kids and pushing out the poor folk.

That growth is almost entirely at the expense of people less able and less vocal.

As a weirdo who has lived in the city since before it was cool, I'll always bet against the cool kids colonizing the cities. Once they have kids who have to go to school, they leave.

Re:How not to create traffic jams: Don’t let people park for... by tonyedgecombe on Sunday April 09, 2017 @06:30AM (#14071534)
Yes, because clearly having children was impossible until we developed the motor car.
Re:How not to create traffic jams: Don’t let people park for... by dba7dba on Saturday April 08, 2017 @04:51PM (#14068959)
I gather you don't have kids then? With young kids in family you will almost certainly need cars.
Re:How not to create traffic jams: Don’t let people park for... by yellow_postit on Saturday April 08, 2017 @07:08PM (#14069572)
People living with children in London tend to do just fine as long as we are trading anectdotes.
Re:How not to create traffic jams: Don’t let people park for... by nsxwolf on Saturday April 08, 2017 @06:05PM (#14069314)
We need to convince people to stop having kids, too. Then we can have our public transportation utopia.
Re:How not to create traffic jams: Don’t let people park for... by 35bge57dtjku on Saturday April 08, 2017 @07:05PM (#14069552)
We need to convince people to stop wanting to go anywhere, then we can save on the costs of that, too.
Re:How not to create traffic jams: Don’t let people park for... by monk_e_boy on Saturday April 08, 2017 @07:00PM (#14069534)
Agreed. If you live outside of a city with no public transport ... what options do you have? No one is going to cycle 40 miles to work every day.
Re:How not to create traffic jams: Don’t let people park for... by convolvatron on Saturday April 08, 2017 @11:43PM (#14070302)
maybe it really doesn't make sense to travel 80 miles a day to get to work? just saying, at some point it becomes a poor societal and personal tradeoff. where do you think the line is?

to some extend the 80 mile commute is being subsidized (roads, artificially lower gas prices, cost of congestion, pollution, sufficient space for parking at dense destinations, etc)

I'm not saying there aren't tradeoffs, but you can't really assert that as a group we just have to accommodate 80 mile daily commutes for everyone and solve backwards from that.

Re:How not to create traffic jams: Don’t let people park for... by monk_e_boy on Sunday April 09, 2017 @03:06PM (#14073806)
For me it comes down to my house - I can't sell it as it is worth less than when I purchased it. This is the case for a lot of people since the housing crash.

Also, jobs come and go. Sometimes I'm working close to home, sometimes 40 miles East, sometimes 50 miles north. I guess this is the same for most people. Why move when you're just going to get laid off in a years time?

Re:How not to create traffic jams: Don’t let people park for... by convolvatron on Sunday April 09, 2017 @09:26PM (#14075370)
i'm not criticizing your personal choices. i'm old and i can't afford to buy so i really screwed up. but as a matter of policy I'm not sure we should be encouraging exurb development by trying to twist transit around that.

more broadly i think the US (whatever combination of govt and industry) has failed to provide well for the guy with a job that wants to invest in property and possibly to raise a family. even with two incomes.

as you say, the promise of job stability is looking increasingly illusory

the job market putting you in a position where you are killing time in traffic for 2+ hours a day is a pretty clear sign of that failure

Re:How not to create traffic jams: Don’t let people park for... by thatfrenchguy on Sunday April 09, 2017 @06:12AM (#14071481)
You should try living in a real city like London or Paris, where being a car owner sucks and that's really good.
Re:How not to create traffic jams: Don’t let people park for... by aidenn0 on Saturday April 08, 2017 @08:30PM (#14069827)
But we don't provide free cell phones to everyone.
Re:How not to create traffic jams: Don’t let people park for... by dsfyu404ed on Saturday April 08, 2017 @09:15PM (#14069962)
We don't provide free cars to anyone.
Re:How not to create traffic jams: Don’t let people park for... by grogenaut on Saturday April 08, 2017 @09:30PM (#14069994)
I'm pretty sure I pay for the bus as well both with taxes and fares.
Re:How not to create traffic jams: Don’t let people park for... by TheCoelacanth on Sunday April 09, 2017 @04:30PM (#14074215)
But we do provide free parking.