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Re:Growing Ubuntu for Cloud and IoT, Rather Than Phone and C... by ThatGeoGuy on Wednesday April 05, 2017 @01:45PM (#14043964)
I get that they're moving away from convergence, but what does this ultimately mean for Ubuntu as a mobile OS? In the grand scheme of things, what does this mean for users who want a completely FOSS stack for their phone (let's ignore the baseband for now)?

As far as I can tell, this just means that your only options are Android or iOS. It's not easy to get a Jolla/SailfishOS phone that will work on most Canadian or USA networks, and with this announcement it seems that Ubuntu phones won't be around for much longer. This coupled with the death of Firefox OS means that there's really not much of a choice. Certainly you can run AOSP with no Google Apps, but not having Google Play Services tends to cause more and more problems, or at the very least means your phone is less and less capable as time goes on.

I guess in general we can all celebrate that Ubuntu is moving to GNOME / Wayland and is ditching convergence, but I think the fact that there's no healthy alternative to iOS / Android is quite sad. If Canonical is exiting the mobile space to work on other things, what other alternatives do users have?

Re:Growing Ubuntu for Cloud and IoT, Rather Than Phone and C... by Paul-ish on Wednesday April 05, 2017 @02:26PM (#14044356)
What I don't understand is Shuttleworth basically said "the market has spoken, and does not want an Ubuntu phone." But I checked their website a few times a year to see if I could buy an Ubuntu phone and always saw a message about "Coming soon" or "sold out". How was the market supposed to get their hands on Ubuntu phone?
Re:Growing Ubuntu for Cloud and IoT, Rather Than Phone and C... by DCKing on Wednesday April 05, 2017 @03:10PM (#14044693)
I think he means that they were not able to sell the idea to device vendors sufficiently. The 'market' he refers to are the device vendors, not the end users.

If you make a mobile operating system but you don't make devices, you need to be able to convince device vendors to sell the product for you to end users. They didn't succeed in that.

Re:Growing Ubuntu for Cloud and IoT, Rather Than Phone and C... by zanny on Wednesday April 05, 2017 @07:54PM (#14046788)
This is probably why they tried the Edge campaign 4 years ago. They weren't getting anywhere with vendors then, and weren't now, so they eventually had to give up.

It should be a bit concerning how uncompetitive the market is that you really cannot even try to launch a mobile OS of your own as a product, since you are beholden to telecom operators and handset manufacturers on both ends, all of whom have government granted monopolies or protection in their own industries to prevent competition.

Re:Growing Ubuntu for Cloud and IoT, Rather Than Phone and C... by scribu on Thursday April 06, 2017 @06:52AM (#14049431)
I agree that it sucks there is so little competition in the mobile OS space, but I don't think government involvement is enough to explain this situation.

Take Microsoft - it became a handset manufacturer and is still struggling to make Windows Phone a winner.

Re:Growing Ubuntu for Cloud and IoT, Rather Than Phone and C... by zanny on Thursday April 06, 2017 @01:09PM (#14052458)
That is exactly why government involvement is such an issue. Microsoft could throw around insane sums of money with its mobile aspirations - and has - while at the same time most users of it say it was the best of the major offerings, they had no success.

That was because Microsoft could have all the money in the world, but couldn't operate a cell network out of thin air that would promote their devices. They also had limited access to hardware - they had to outright buy Nokia to even get minor device manufacturer access, and even then few companies ever offered Windows Phone devices despite Microsoft throwing hundreds of millions of dollars at it.

When Microsoft cannot make inroads - a company that outright buys entire business sectors to own competition - its disastrous.

Re:Growing Ubuntu for Cloud and IoT, Rather Than Phone and C... by notatoad on Wednesday April 05, 2017 @06:47PM (#14046385)
>I think he means that they were not able to sell the idea to device vendors sufficiently.

And the implication from that is that if vendors aren't looking to make a ubuntu phone, it's because their customers aren't asking for a ubuntu phone. Regardless of how many layers there are between Canonical and the end user, there weren't a lot of end-users asking for a Ubuntu phone.

Re:Growing Ubuntu for Cloud and IoT, Rather Than Phone and C... by ocdtrekkie on Thursday April 06, 2017 @01:28AM (#14048167)
Unfortunately, in this particular "market", Google has a complete, and uncontested monopoly. :/
Re:Growing Ubuntu for Cloud and IoT, Rather Than Phone and C... by smartt on Wednesday April 05, 2017 @03:10PM (#14044694)
I'm in the same boat. I backed the original Ubuntu Edge indiegogo campaign, but it never happened. And I would check the site periodically to see if there was a phone that shipped/worked in the States (and there never was) or if it was running on anything newer than a Nexus 5.

FirefoxOS phones were pretty much the same story. Limited hardware that wasn't available in the US market.

With both, it may not have been a lack of global interest; but a lack of interest in the limited markets they chose to release in.

Re:Growing Ubuntu for Cloud and IoT, Rather Than Phone and C... by tradesmanhelix on Wednesday April 05, 2017 @04:09PM (#14045157)
The shotgun approach that both FirefoxOS and Ubuntu Phone took saddens me - I think they could have done very well had they focused on acquiring power/niche users instead of trying to be a mass-market consumer product from the get-go.

When the iPhone first launched, it wasn't adopted by everyone. I remember when, in ~2009, I and a few friends were the only ones I knew who had an iPhone. It wasn't until around 2011 that pretty much everyone I knew had a smartphone.

The basic business lesson is that you have to "cross the chasm" from early adopters to mainstream users - you can't just start selling a new product to everyone and expect to succeed without massive resources, and even then your product can still struggle (see: Apple Watch). Really, the only way to pull it off is to establish a niche market before targeting the general market. This book [1] does a great job of explaining the process - Mozilla and Canonical execs would do well to read it!

Sadly, many startups don't seem to have very good business sense and long-term thinking. "If we're not the iPhone yesterday, then we can't compete and we might as well 'pivot' and 'focus' on our 'core offerings'" - not true! There is a market for a user-respecting, fully (or even mostly!) FLOSS smartphone, but my parents certainly aren't going to buy one - they just got their first iPhone last year after all - so sell to me and people like me, not them. Then, maybe in 6-8 years, once the platform has matured and the FLOSS benefits become obvious, you'll start to break into the general market and start to challenge iOS and Android. But I don't think most companies are down for that; sadly, most are just focused on next quarter's profits instead of building something lasting.

[1] https://www.amazon.com/Crossing-Chasm-3rd-Disruptive-Mainstr...

Re:Growing Ubuntu for Cloud and IoT, Rather Than Phone and C... by remir on Wednesday April 05, 2017 @07:53PM (#14046784)
Building something lasting takes resources. Canonical simply had no chance. Even Microsoft, despite their aquisition of Nokia, their marketing budget, their massive dev resources, is failing on mobile. They even have their own convergence feature and it's not enough to attrack customers.
Re:Growing Ubuntu for Cloud and IoT, Rather Than Phone and C... by profoundwhale on Wednesday April 05, 2017 @11:21PM (#14047678)
Microsoft made a mobile OS that didn't offer a compelling enough alternative to either iOS or Android.

iOS = Locked in ecosystem Windows Phone = Locked in ecosystem

Android = Alternative to iOS Windows = Alternative to iOS

On a technical level, Windows Phone devices performed around the same as iOS devices (fantastic), but lacked mainstream apps (the same problem as Blackberry) but without the backwards compatibility with Android apps.

Basically, Windows Phone was doomed to be the "not android, and not iOS" smartphone despite the great technical aspects of the OS.

Re:Growing Ubuntu for Cloud and IoT, Rather Than Phone and C... by pjmlp on Thursday April 06, 2017 @02:41AM (#14048445)
Actually by 8.1 people that don't have the bugdet to buy iPhones and disliked Android where buying Windows Phones, up to the point they almost managed 10% world wide.

But then came the Windows Phone 10 reboot, with the promise that all 8.1 devices would get an WP 10 update, promise that they eventually broke by allowing only premium devices to get it.

So no, WP wasn't doomed if Microsoft managed to keep the roadmap steady, instead of rebooting left and right.

On the other hand, they seem to be having some luck with hybrid laptops/tablets. Something that most Android devices still do very poorly.

Re:Growing Ubuntu for Cloud and IoT, Rather Than Phone and C... by m_mueller on Thursday April 06, 2017 @09:28AM (#14050285)
Not just that but they did it multiple times - 6.5, 7, 8, 10 - all pretty much incompatible from both a handset and even a developer's perspective. Imagine Apple doing that and having their first four iOS iterations all going in different directions every time, they'd also br in Microsoft's position now. They seem to have learned now and I could still see them turn around.
Re:Growing Ubuntu for Cloud and IoT, Rather Than Phone and C... by tradesmanhelix on Thursday April 06, 2017 @11:12AM (#14051238)
If, "Canonical simply had no chance", then does that mean we're stuck with iOS and Android period? And no other mobile OS has a shot? If you believe that, then you're certainly entitled to your opinion, but I feel like that's not the type of hacker mindset that moves the world forward.

I'm optimistic because I've never seen one of these 3rd option OSes take the approach mentioned in the Crossing the Chasm book linked in my earlier post - they all went straight to mass market vs. targeting a niche, dominating, and then using that beachhead to expand into other markets. If someone makes a legit or mostly-legit FLOSS mobile device, targets it at the appropriate audience, and slowly and patiently nurtures an ecosystem, I think a 3rd option can succeed.

Re:Growing Ubuntu for Cloud and IoT, Rather Than Phone and C... by remir on Thursday April 06, 2017 @09:24PM (#14056293)
I heard the same thing about desktop Linux for years. 200 distros later, guess what, Windows is still king and Apple is still selling boatloads of pricey machines.
Re:Growing Ubuntu for Cloud and IoT, Rather Than Phone and C... by tradesmanhelix on Tuesday April 18, 2017 @05:19PM (#14143023)
I agree that Linux on the desktop is not a mass market consumer product in 2017, but are you saying that we should just accept that and move on? What about innovative disruption and building the future we want?
Re:Growing Ubuntu for Cloud and IoT, Rather Than Phone and C... by remir on Thursday April 20, 2017 @08:47PM (#14162196)
I won't tell you what you should or shouldn't do. I will, however, tell you that Apple and Google won the mobile OS game and both of them are working on the next big thing: AI.
Re:Growing Ubuntu for Cloud and IoT, Rather Than Phone and C... by tradesmanhelix on Wednesday April 26, 2017 @11:10AM (#14203603)
Blackberry "won" the mobile OS game in the early 2000's, but look what happened to them: Apple came along with a better product and now Blackberry is pretty much a joke looking for a punchline.

No market is ever truly "won" - they are all susceptible to disruption, no matter what monopolies or duopolies may exist. Not saying said disruption is easy, but it is always possible, and personally I think it is something worth pushing for vs. settling for the status quo, esp. when said status quo is either closed (iOS) or not very user-respecting (stock Android w/Google services).

Re:Growing Ubuntu for Cloud and IoT, Rather Than Phone and C... by remir on Saturday April 29, 2017 @09:28PM (#14229724)
Again, you're talking like the Linux fanboys I've been hearing for years: "Vista is total crap, it's only a matter of time before Linux takes over", "Windows 8 is a disaster, this is the year of Linux on the desktop!", "Windows 10 is a privacy nightmare! It's only a matter of time before people wake up and switch to Linux", "Steam on Linux? Game Over Microsoft! loll", etc...

Now, you are absolutely right that no market is won forever. Like you said, Blackberry was once king of the hill and was toppled by Apple. But again, like you said, Apple had a better product (and the resources to bring it to market).

So now, the question is: what's the next thing? The next "winner"? Where's the better product than iOS and Android today? Sailfish? Tizen? Mer? Fuchsia is in development at Google and looks intriguing, plus it's open source. What else could "win" mobile?

Re:Growing Ubuntu for Cloud and IoT, Rather Than Phone and C... by tradesmanhelix on Tuesday May 02, 2017 @10:16AM (#14246475)
Not really sure how to respond to your first paragraph, but I'll take a stab at it. All I'm saying is I think there _was_ a viable way for Canonical to bring Ubuntu Touch to market, they didn't follow that path, Ubuntu Touch failed as a result, and I wish that things had turned out differently. Had they followed the approach outlined in Crossing the Chasm, I think they had a decent shot at upsetting the status quo.

^^ I don't see how the above makes me a Linux fanboy?

As far as the next "thing" or "winner" goes, I'm not sure what that will be. My only hope is that it's not locked down and non-free by default like mobile operating systems have been. However, seeing the way AI and such are shaping up, I'm skeptical that we're not headed for a very closed, proprietary future with few if any viable alternatives to the mainstream offerings of Apple, Google, Amazon, etc.

I don't believe that a "better product than iOS and Android" exists today. Sadly, Ubuntu Touch will never be that better product, nor did Canonical ever really give it the opportunity to be.

So, what could "win" mobile? Given that the smartphone market has basically matured, the only two viable approaches are:

1. Develop a niche product that could eventually grow into a mainstream offering, or 2. Build the next "big thing"

Unfortunately, Canonical tried to make Ubuntu Touch a direct iOS/Android competitor from the get-go and they barely made it to market before everything folded, so I'd argue they tried to take a 3rd approach and failed. Right now, I don't see anyone who's really taking either of the above approaches with much success, but I guess the good news is disruption _is_ coming. When and how, we'll just have to see, but one thing is for sure: Ubuntu Touch is out of the running.

Re:Growing Ubuntu for Cloud and IoT, Rather Than Phone and C... by nthcolumn on Wednesday April 05, 2017 @06:42PM (#14046342)
Basically torn between two streams - the one that paid for everything with AWS and ubuntu server doing well, driving juju and b2b stuff west coast, meanwhile open hostility and slow adoption of the marmite of DMs Unity, Ubuntu nOne (~dropbox) by the 'ingrates' and not helped by on-by-default Amazon (!) ads, BDFL RMS rants and various other missteps. It was unbelievably ambitious. I noted recently some Redmond 'embracing' going on (and we know what happens after 'embrace') wondering would 'Microsoft Linux' finally arrive - some partnership/deal. Ultimately the resource wasn't there for all of it, they aren't Google, and they are overtaken on all fronts now. I guess Mark wants to focus on what is bringing home the Bacon (if that pun is not too painful).
Re:Growing Ubuntu for Cloud and IoT, Rather Than Phone and C... by CaptSpify on Wednesday April 05, 2017 @02:57PM (#14044592)
Agreed. Additionally, the phone is far from production ready. It's a great start, but clearly still in the beta phase. I find it insincere to put a couple of beta phones out, then complain that nobody is buying them.
Re:Growing Ubuntu for Cloud and IoT, Rather Than Phone and C... by bananaoomarang on Wednesday April 05, 2017 @01:53PM (#14044050)
This is my worry. The technical challenge of maintaining a usable mobile OS seems too high for companies like Canonical and Mozilla to have a chance, since getting hardware produced, marketed and into people's hands is a gargantuan task, and supporting Android handset installs is fighting a losing battle.

Having said that, I am not sure why? Ubuntu Phone seems largely functional on a few devices, but installing it and using it remains a pain.

Re:Growing Ubuntu for Cloud and IoT, Rather Than Phone and C... by onli on Wednesday April 05, 2017 @01:56PM (#14044075)
Jep, I don't understand it. It is completely understandable to drop a product that is not working on the market. It is less understandable to drop a product that never really was on the market, after the big initial investment is already done. Same for FF, same for WebOS: How can you draw the conclusion that something is not working on the market if you never tried making it available to customers, on regular hardware?

Only makes sense if there is no money left.

Re:Growing Ubuntu for Cloud and IoT, Rather Than Phone and C... by jstanley on Wednesday April 05, 2017 @02:03PM (#14044147)
> you never tried making it available to customers, on regular hardware?

I'm pretty sure they tried very hard indeed. They just didn't succeed.

I say this as a long-time user of Ubuntu Touch. I don't love it, it is not without its flaws. It's just the best mobile OS I've found, primarily because it doesn't nag you with privacy-invasion at every turn. I'll miss it when it's gone.

Re:Growing Ubuntu for Cloud and IoT, Rather Than Phone and C... by ThatGeoGuy on Wednesday April 05, 2017 @03:19PM (#14044755)
> I'm pretty sure they tried very hard indeed. They just didn't succeed.

I don't know about this. The last phone they released was the Meizu Pro 5, which had an Android variant (sold in stores) and an Ubuntu variant (sold online only, and you had to dig for it if you didn't get redirected from ubuntu.com). The hardware itself for the phone wasn't awful by any means, but buying one was hard enough because the manufacturer only sold out of Asia.

Further, the Meizu Pro 5 didn't work on most networks in Canada and the United States. Why would I buy a phone that doesn't support 3G/4G? I'd _love_ to support Canonical by purchasing an Ubuntu touch device, but you could hardly say that they tried. Their handsets were few and far between, and they locked out a large portion of the market because of the phone's baseband frequencies.

I think that they could have succeeded, at least in the small, had they actually released a device that power users could use comfortably.

Re:Growing Ubuntu for Cloud and IoT, Rather Than Phone and C... by mhall119 on Wednesday April 05, 2017 @05:08PM (#14045642)
Canonical made no handsets, we worked with the companies that wanted to ship Ubuntu phones, but we didn't get to dictate when, where or how many.
Re:Growing Ubuntu for Cloud and IoT, Rather Than Phone and C... by empath75 on Wednesday April 05, 2017 @06:48PM (#14046392)
The customers were device manufacturers, and they didn't want it.
Re:Growing Ubuntu for Cloud and IoT, Rather Than Phone and C... by SXX on Wednesday April 05, 2017 @03:10PM (#14044692)
> what does this mean for users who want a completely FOSS stack for their phone (let's ignore the baseband for now)?

And also ignore locked bootloaders, DRM code in ARM TrustZone, never updated BSP that make most devices use old kernels, userspace blobs for graphics and video playback, lack of proper hardware documentation and fact that most of out-of-tree drivers that are open source are simply horrible.

Google never wanted FOSS stack on your phone in first place. Same true for phone manufacturer's, hardware vendors, carriers, media companies and governments.

So there simple not much you can do other that support rare open hardware efforts and use extremely overpriced custom-built phones.

Re:Growing Ubuntu for Cloud and IoT, Rather Than Phone and C... by walterbell on Wednesday April 05, 2017 @03:42PM (#14044946)
http://neo900.org

>The Neo900 project aims to provide a Fremantle (Maemo™ 5) compatible successor to the N900, with a faster CPU, more RAM and an LTE modem. This is all based on a free, mature and stable platform - the GTA04. We'll provide complete, ready-to-use devices, as well as motherboard replacements for your current devices. Most importantly, the Neo900 is an open platform, carrying on in the tradition of the Openmoko project. Neo900 will support all operating systems available for GTA04 (QtMoko, SHR, Debian, Replicant, ...)"

Re:Growing Ubuntu for Cloud and IoT, Rather Than Phone and C... by dsgsadtsfg on Wednesday April 05, 2017 @04:54PM (#14045527)
A smartphone with a [1 GHz single-core CPU and 1 GB RAM](http://neo900.org/specs) for [1000+ EUR](http://neo900.org/estimate.html)?

No, thanks.

Re:Growing Ubuntu for Cloud and IoT, Rather Than Phone and C... by walterbell on Wednesday April 05, 2017 @05:05PM (#14045619)
It's for those who know the difference between the Nokia N900 and a "smartphone".
Re:Growing Ubuntu for Cloud and IoT, Rather Than Phone and C... by ZenoArrow on Wednesday April 05, 2017 @01:59PM (#14044101)
I'd suggest the best remaining option for a FOSS-driven phone (now that Canonical have dropped the ball) is Tizen. It's got the backing of a large phone manufacturer (Samsung) and the Linux Foundation, and seems to be actively developed. It'll probably end up being used on low-end devices at first, but is likely to be more open than the two leading platforms, so hopefully they get some traction amongst tech community.

It's also worth pointing out that Samsung has been investing in Servo, and that Tizen has good support for HTML5 apps, so hopefully we can see mobile web apps increase in popularity to get us away from the walled garden approach.

https://www.tizen.org/

Re:Growing Ubuntu for Cloud and IoT, Rather Than Phone and C... by dullroar on Wednesday April 05, 2017 @02:08PM (#14044213)
I, too, want competition in this space. Unfortunately, Tizen got some bad press this week: https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2017/04/samsungs-tizen-is-ri.... The past year has not been good for Samsung on so many fronts.
Re:Growing Ubuntu for Cloud and IoT, Rather Than Phone and C... by ZenoArrow on Wednesday April 05, 2017 @02:22PM (#14044316)
If code quality is an issue, at least people who want an open-source phone OS can work on fixes:

https://source.tizen.org/

I don't see many other options emerging. It's possible that a community-led effort to finish work on Unity 8 (and possibly port it to Wayland) may emerge, but that would only solve the phone UI issue, the main problem holding back open-source phones is likely to be closed bootloaders and lack of drivers. By supporting Tizen we can get Samsung to handle the low level stuff.

Re:Growing Ubuntu for Cloud and IoT, Rather Than Phone and C... by rrdharan on Wednesday April 05, 2017 @03:45PM (#14044964)
Doesn't really help that there's a source website if there's not a sane process for actually submitting PRs and merging patches, and apparently there isn't one.
Re:Growing Ubuntu for Cloud and IoT, Rather Than Phone and C... by ZenoArrow on Wednesday April 05, 2017 @05:51PM (#14045974)
>"and apparently there isn't one."

https://source.tizen.org/documentation/developer-guide/getti...

"This document provides information about how to contribute code to Tizen, including the following:

    * Cloning over SSH
    * Submit a patch to the Gerrit
    * Review a patch on the Gerrit
    * Submit a package to the build system
    * Review and accept a package on the build server (for release engineer only)
For more information about the whole work process, please refer to Tizen Development Working Mechanism."
Re:Growing Ubuntu for Cloud and IoT, Rather Than Phone and C... by pjmlp on Wednesday April 05, 2017 @05:16PM (#14045704)
Tizen is a joke, they already rebooted the SDK multiple times.

1 - GTK+ based

2 - Took Bada OS C++ SDK with its Symbian C++ like flavour

3 - Rewrote the C++ API into something more appealing

4 - Thrown everything away and replaced with EFL, plain C API with C++ will come soon

5 - Now they are adopting .NET Core with Xamarin Forms

How can anyone invest time developing for them?

Re:Growing Ubuntu for Cloud and IoT, Rather Than Phone and C... by ZenoArrow on Wednesday April 05, 2017 @05:36PM (#14045862)
>"How can anyone invest time developing for them?"

What alternative do you suggest? I suggested they were the best remaining option for an open-source mobile OS now that Ubuntu were dropping out of the race. What other options are there? Sailfish? Anything else?

Re:Growing Ubuntu for Cloud and IoT, Rather Than Phone and C... by pjmlp on Wednesday April 05, 2017 @06:08PM (#14046098)
There are no alternatives.

This ideology of open-source mobile OS goes back to Openmoko.

None of them managed to sell enough devices to keep a profitable business.

Re:Growing Ubuntu for Cloud and IoT, Rather Than Phone and C... by ZenoArrow on Thursday April 06, 2017 @02:54AM (#14048497)
>"None of them managed to sell enough devices to keep a profitable business."

Nokia managed it with the N900 and the N9, the only reason they didn't continue is they lost their bottle and sold out to Microsoft.

Re:Growing Ubuntu for Cloud and IoT, Rather Than Phone and C... by pjmlp on Thursday April 06, 2017 @03:10AM (#14048558)
If you were fine with "open source" on those Nokia devices, you should be happy with "open source" on Android.

Also as a former employee I can tell they didn't sell that much units, specially when compared with Symbian devices.

Re:Growing Ubuntu for Cloud and IoT, Rather Than Phone and C... by nickpsecurity on Wednesday April 05, 2017 @06:34PM (#14046296)
What he said. On top of it, maybe next failed attempt can try building on one of these for a stronger foundation:

https://github.com/ExpressOS/expressos

http://genode.org/

Re:Growing Ubuntu for Cloud and IoT, Rather Than Phone and C... by ZenoArrow on Thursday April 06, 2017 @02:55AM (#14048501)
Tizen is an alternative, whether you like it or not is another matter.
Re:Growing Ubuntu for Cloud and IoT, Rather Than Phone and C... by nickpsecurity on Thursday April 06, 2017 @11:06AM (#14051168)
Oh, you make it sound so simple. A platform is an alternative to dominating ecosystems if it exists at all. It having apps, locking you into Microsfot, or even existing 5+ years down the road doesn't matter? If that's true, there should be all kinds of people on all kinds of smartphone platforms right now instead of most of them on two.

Meanwhile, Tizen is available for people wanting whatever their changing offering is. I guess just budget regular rewrites in a new language/platform you had to learn into your FOSS app on Tizen with either few contributors or the more common zero. That's some great ROI.

Re:Growing Ubuntu for Cloud and IoT, Rather Than Phone and C... by skierpage on Thursday April 06, 2017 @06:23AM (#14049331)
KDE's Plasma Mobile? Like Ubuntu Phone/Unity 8 it's also using Qt QML to build flexible layout apps that support touch and keyboard+mouse.

https://plasma-mobile.org/

Re:Growing Ubuntu for Cloud and IoT, Rather Than Phone and C... by nickpsecurity on Wednesday April 05, 2017 @06:31PM (#14046270)
That's even worse than the already-terrible market for FOSS phones. You get something that will have Linux or some standard API but probably disappear eventually. Then add the aggravation of having to change your stack constantly. Yeah, I'd pass on it unless it stabilizes into a standard stack. Preferably not dependent on Microsoft or Oracle tech either to reduce patent/copyright risk a bit.
Re:Growing Ubuntu for Cloud and IoT, Rather Than Phone and C... by pcr0 on Thursday April 06, 2017 @12:32AM (#14047939)
Oracle aside, .NET core is open source and I don't see today's Microsoft pulling the same crap as Oracle did with Google.
Re:Growing Ubuntu for Cloud and IoT, Rather Than Phone and C... by nickpsecurity on Thursday April 06, 2017 @11:07AM (#14051179)
What about tomorrow's? Copyright's, patents, and software last a long time. Better to know you aren't dependent on a malicious party who can turn against you any time.
Re:Growing Ubuntu for Cloud and IoT, Rather Than Phone and C... by ocdtrekkie on Thursday April 06, 2017 @01:32AM (#14048194)
In today's market, I think Microsoft would rather give a competitor a royalty free permanent license to all their patents than let Google continue to just own the industry. Mobile is only one of the many markets they compete in, but Google is using their mobile dominance to help lead and push their expansion elsewhere. Microsoft needs a new mobile OS option out there, even if it isn't theirs.
Re:Growing Ubuntu for Cloud and IoT, Rather Than Phone and C... by nickpsecurity on Thursday April 06, 2017 @11:09AM (#14051196)
Microsoft makes several hundred million to billion on Android royalties alone. They did that with either actual lawsuits or the threat of them. I don't remember what it was in the start but do know they suck a fortune out of Android vendors (esp Samsung) while they did everything they could to put it out of business with Windows Phone. Nothing contributed, but billions taken via patent claims.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/ewanspence/2015/11/01/microsoft...

Re:Growing Ubuntu for Cloud and IoT, Rather Than Phone and C... by greenhouse_gas on Wednesday April 05, 2017 @03:22PM (#14044770)
How is Tizen different then Android from a privacy/OS perspective?

What will stop Samsung from closing it off when it gets too popular? (And, BTW, it's not like Samsung hardware is the pinnacle of OS design. Exynos is notorious for being hard to make custom ROMs)

Re:Growing Ubuntu for Cloud and IoT, Rather Than Phone and C... by Mailtemi on Wednesday April 05, 2017 @02:24PM (#14044338)
Last two weeks I've estimating Tizen, Ubuntu or Sailfish worth port an app. Like sample apps, build scripts debugging, etc. Although Tizen has large corp support, Ubuntu and Sailfish look more developer friendly. CMake, QT , C++.
Re:Growing Ubuntu for Cloud and IoT, Rather Than Phone and C... by ZenoArrow on Wednesday April 05, 2017 @02:28PM (#14044368)
Re:Growing Ubuntu for Cloud and IoT, Rather Than Phone and C... by Mailtemi on Wednesday April 05, 2017 @02:55PM (#14044575)
C# look like a dead end, though much better than first WinPhone with "SilverLight." If you have written c/ or c++ engine, you need just a good bridge to OS UI language. Well, also platform + tools that work well on each Unix/Linux.

Just to mention I used to like MS technologies. Least problems I had with ASP 2 / AJAX web app which works for nine years without significant problems.

Re:Growing Ubuntu for Cloud and IoT, Rather Than Phone and C... by ZenoArrow on Wednesday April 05, 2017 @05:22PM (#14045743)
>"C# look like a dead end"

http://statisticstimes.com/tech/top-computer-languages.php

> "you need just a good bridge to OS UI language"

For moblie apps, Xamarin is that bridge (can always build web apps too):

https://www.xamarin.com/

Plus, .NET Core is cross-platform, good cross-platform tooling becoming available (VS Code, etc...), and you don't have to use C#.

If you're interested in writing games, Unity uses .NET (Mono in particular):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unity_(game_engine)

Re:Growing Ubuntu for Cloud and IoT, Rather Than Phone and C... by andrewshadura on Wednesday April 05, 2017 @05:13PM (#14045682)
Tizen is not free software, and it's not a real platform. It's a toy Samsung uses to threaten Google with.
Re:Growing Ubuntu for Cloud and IoT, Rather Than Phone and C... by ZenoArrow on Wednesday April 05, 2017 @05:46PM (#14045932)
>"Tizen is not free software"

It's developed with the support of the Linux Foundation, with the code released under open source licences. There are some parts of the design that are licenced by Samsung (e.g the SDK), but overall it looks pretty open to me.

>"it's not a real platform"

It has shipped in multiple devices, including every TV Samsung have sold since 2015:

https://wiki.tizen.org/wiki/Devices

>"It's a toy Samsung uses to threaten Google with."

It's a little more than that. At the moment it's not got much traction on phones, but I still maintain it's the best option for an open-source mobile OS that we've got left now that Ubuntu are out of the picture. If you can think of a better alternative that currently exists, by all means feel free to share it.

Re:Growing Ubuntu for Cloud and IoT, Rather Than Phone and C... by int_19h on Wednesday April 05, 2017 @08:05PM (#14046840)
Wait, the SDK is not open source??
Re:Growing Ubuntu for Cloud and IoT, Rather Than Phone and C... by andrewshadura on Friday April 07, 2017 @09:13AM (#14059304)
> It's developed with the support of the Linux Foundation, with the code released under open source licences. There are some parts of the design that are licenced by Samsung (e.g the SDK), but overall it looks pretty open to me.

Some core components are not (or were not) free software. And the license for the SDK gives Samsung the rights to revoke forbid specific users from using it.

Re:Growing Ubuntu for Cloud and IoT, Rather Than Phone and C... by robert_foss on Wednesday April 05, 2017 @02:09PM (#14044219)
Ubuntu Mobile was never really a viable alternative mobile os though.
Re:Growing Ubuntu for Cloud and IoT, Rather Than Phone and C... by CaptSpify on Wednesday April 05, 2017 @03:05PM (#14044658)
As an UM user: I completely disagree. I think it's got a solid foundation, but they should have never marked it as production ready. If they had baked it a bit more, it could have been.
Re:Growing Ubuntu for Cloud and IoT, Rather Than Phone and C... by mlvskmvd on Wednesday April 05, 2017 @02:16PM (#14044273)
I disagree. I think if it was marketed as heavily as google markets android it could compete in certain markets like power-users and professionals.
Re:Growing Ubuntu for Cloud and IoT, Rather Than Phone and C... by spectistcles on Wednesday April 05, 2017 @02:37PM (#14044441)
It could carve out a niche, but it would never compete. They don't have the money Google has by a vast longshot.
Re:Growing Ubuntu for Cloud and IoT, Rather Than Phone and C... by Apocryphon on Wednesday April 05, 2017 @04:13PM (#14045191)
What about Plasma/Mobile for KDE on your phone?
Re:Growing Ubuntu for Cloud and IoT, Rather Than Phone and C... by jhasse on Wednesday April 05, 2017 @02:06PM (#14044172)
LineageOS + F-Droid
Re:Growing Ubuntu for Cloud and IoT, Rather Than Phone and C... by ajross on Wednesday April 05, 2017 @07:00PM (#14046484)
Exactly. There absolutely is an open source Android experience (at the level of the applications and API -- drivers are a different story) for those who want it. It really doesn't suck, and it's a clean migration from the commercial environments (which is to say, you don't really need F-Droid as almost all this stuff is in the Play Store already).

Open source on Android is in pretty good shape on the whole, which is one of the big reasons why Unity never really caught on except among the tiny fraction of developers who were genuinely into Linux desktop application development specifically.

Re:Growing Ubuntu for Cloud and IoT, Rather Than Phone and C... by jhasse on Thursday April 06, 2017 @03:10AM (#14048562)
The Play Store is closed source though.
Re:Growing Ubuntu for Cloud and IoT, Rather Than Phone and C... by ajross on Thursday April 06, 2017 @10:57AM (#14051072)
I know. The point was that if you are an Android user and want to try out "open source app X", there's no need to install an open ROM or F-Droid. Just grab the app from the existing app store. The path between "normal users" and "pure free software" ones is smooth and easy. It's not like the desktop where you need to convince people to install Ubunto or Arch instead of Windows or macOS.
Re:Growing Ubuntu for Cloud and IoT, Rather Than Phone and C... by niutech on Thursday April 06, 2017 @03:37PM (#14053887)
There are some open source alternatives:

- Replicant (http://www.replicant.us)

- Plasma Mobile (https://plasma-mobile.org)

- Tizen (https://www.tizen.org)