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Re:Google Talk Is Being Discontinued by colordrops on Friday March 24, 2017 @03:51PM (#13951732)
I'm not a big fan of legislating technical standards, but in this case I think I could support it. IM has become a fundamental communication mechanism. Imagine how held back society would be if we had 50 different voice standards rather than the singular phone system we have now. IM needs to be forcefully standardized.
Re:Google Talk Is Being Discontinued by danudey on Friday March 24, 2017 @05:19PM (#13952298)
Korea mandated through legislation that all online shopping had to go through ActiveX controls, because that was the only way to guarantee secure encryption at the time. Now it's practically the least secure way to online shop and even Microsoft recommends not using ActiveX, but it's a huge amount of work to strip that infrastructure out and make everything work 'properly' so it's still an issue even today.

In short, legislating a solution is a workaround that can turn out to be a huge detriment not too long down the road. I'm no libertarian, but it seems like a bad idea to me.

Re:Google Talk Is Being Discontinued by TeMPOraL on Friday March 24, 2017 @05:27PM (#13952365)
That's a good point - especially important if someone's thinking about legislating a particular technology. On the other hand, maybe in this case it would be enough to legislate a requirement for openness of the protocol? I.e. whatever it is, if it has enough many users, it has to be fully available to third party integrations.
Re:Google Talk Is Being Discontinued by TheSpiceIsLife on Saturday March 25, 2017 @03:01AM (#13954442)
What about SMS? Everyone has it, it works, and is usually fairly instant. It's not very feature rich, but could there be an SMS 2.0 protocol that was backward compatible?
Re:Google Talk Is Being Discontinued by hiptobecubic on Sunday March 26, 2017 @11:03AM (#13961116)
Isn't this RCS?
Re:Google Talk Is Being Discontinued by IanCal on Friday March 24, 2017 @06:30PM (#13952739)
This feels reminiscent of net neutrality and also general competition laws. I wonder if there's something in that which could be drawn upon?
Re:Google Talk Is Being Discontinued by sitkack on Friday March 24, 2017 @09:19PM (#13953529)
Sounds like a straw man, just because South Korea made a mistake doesn't mean legislating a standard is bad.
Re:Google Talk Is Being Discontinued by i336_ on Friday March 24, 2017 @06:57PM (#13952908)
That was interesting to google.

The first link I got: https://www.theregister.co.uk/2015/04/02/south_korea_to_depo...

Re:Google Talk Is Being Discontinued by lucaspiller on Saturday March 25, 2017 @12:45AM (#13954145)
Except we still do have many different standards for the phone system. As an example the main codecs used for encoding voice today are μ-law (North America), A-law (Europe), GSM (2G/3G), AMR (3G/4G), iLBC (VoIP), G.729 (VoIP).

That is just for voice, now imagine you are a phone company and want to send a call to another phone company. There must be so many different things you need to cooperate on to make it happen - billing, switching, physical connections, numbering, codecs, etc. Yes the actual protocols may be standardised, but the main part is cooperation.

It's not standards we need, it's companies that are willing to cooperate and work together. None of the big tech companies want to do that now though. Everyone wants their own walled garden so they can say they have more users that X competitor.

(I'd argue that XMPP is good enough, or with a few extensions could be made good enough, for a company who really wants to push open IM)

Re:Google Talk Is Being Discontinued by thro1111111 on Saturday March 25, 2017 @12:36AM (#13954127)
It's not something needed. It's a plus, even if it influences society a lot, it's not something like food or healthcare, where if someone plays unfair people die. And it's not like net neutrality either, because you are not costrained by space (putting cables underground). People should be free to choose a service, and if the server want to stop providing the service or change the way it does ut, it should be free to do so. Anything else you can use contracts, or change provider, as long as there is net neutrality in place. And it's not something that messes with your health, so no justification for regulation aside from an arbitrary and unprovable "society being held back". Being unable to make something because of regulations, that's some real and provable holding back of innovation.
Re:Google Talk Is Being Discontinued by pavel_lishin on Friday March 24, 2017 @04:11PM (#13951877)
Don't we already have GSM and LTE, and who knows what else? And I'm not aware of any legislation for the use of those over others. As far as I know, as long as I have the right to use the frequencies, I could start my own cellular telco that transmits whatever format I want.
Re:Google Talk Is Being Discontinued by ucaetano on Friday March 24, 2017 @04:50PM (#13952122)
GSM and LTE use public goods (spectrum).

Spectrum is owned by the public, and regulated as spectrum is a limited resource. IP messaging isn't by any practical means a limited resource.

> As far as I know, as long as I have the right to use the frequencies, I could start my own cellular telco that transmits whatever format I want.

No. Spectrum is regulated in terms of what technology you can use, and kind of usage is supported. You can't buy LTE spectrum and broadcast radio on top of it, and vice versa. You can't (in most cases) take 2G spectrum and deploy LTE on top of it.

Re:Google Talk Is Being Discontinued by pavel_lishin on Friday March 24, 2017 @08:13PM (#13953281)
> No. Spectrum is regulated in terms of what technology you can use, and kind of usage is supported.

Interesting! I was not aware of that. Thanks!

Re:Google Talk Is Being Discontinued by ucaetano on Friday March 24, 2017 @08:59PM (#13953466)
Also, bandwidth is a function of how much spectrum is available (for example between 1900MHz and 2000MHz there is a chunk of 100MHz) and the spectral efficiency (for example, 1 to 2 bits per Hz available).

For example:

If a carrier "owns" the block between 1900MHz and 1940MHz, and let's say LTE supports 2 bits/Hz using Frequency Division Duplexing (each direction, up and down, gets a chunk of spectrum), with 3 sectors per cellular tower, the carrier can support a total of 40x2x3 = 240Mbps per tower, or 120Mbps each way.

If the tower serves 1000 users (they serve far more in dense urban areas), each user will have 120kbps of capacity, and if they all use it at the same time, that's the speed they'll get. If there's a single user, the maximum down speed for that user would be 120/3 = 40Mbps.

Re:Google Talk Is Being Discontinued by dom0 on Friday March 24, 2017 @04:50PM (#13952114)
> As far as I know, as long as I have the right to use the frequencies, I could start my own cellular telco that transmits whatever format I want.

Point I ("I have the right to use the frequencies") directly depends on point II ("whatever format I want"). When applying for using a certain frequency band, you have to specify usage and purpose, and you can't just change your mind, i.e. you can't apply for GSM frequencies and say you will be running a GSM network, but then run the PavelLishinOverAir protocol.

Re:Google Talk Is Being Discontinued by ac29 on Friday March 24, 2017 @07:21PM (#13953041)
>When applying for using a certain frequency band, you have to specify usage and purpose, and you can't just change your mind, i.e. you can't apply for GSM frequencies and say you will be running a GSM network, but then run the PavelLishinOverAir protocol.

While this is mostly true, in practice (at least on the 450-470 MHz band I work with), you can give fairly vague purposes, like "telemetry" or "SCADA", and it doesn't matter what vendor or what protocol you use. In fact, there is no section of the licence that says "I am going to use protocol X on equipment Y manufactured by vendor Z" or any part thereof (emissions designators are a different story).

I don't have any experience will cellular licences, though. Given that carriers frequently repurpose spectrum as technology changes, I can't imagine their licences say "GSM only" or anything like that. The band that used to be 3G GSM is being used for 4G LTE on my phone right now.

Re:Google Talk Is Being Discontinued by dom0 on Saturday March 25, 2017 @09:42AM (#13955578)
This likely differs a lot between countries (though there should be a common core due to ITU of what is being regulated how by whom); in my country the cellular frequencies were auctioned off for dozens of billions of euros to the cellular service providers, with strings attached, e.g. that the networks had to at least use and support 3G.

The same regulatory body (BNetzA) is also responsible for licensing telecommunications providers in general. This is probably the crunchpoint - if you're not a licensed telecommunication provider, it's simply illegal to offer telecommunication services.

Re:Google Talk Is Being Discontinued by pavel_lishin on Friday March 24, 2017 @08:13PM (#13953285)
Huh, I didn't know that. Guess it's time to pivot PavelLishinOverAir to become some sort of drone taco delivery service.
Re:Google Talk Is Being Discontinued by Daishiman on Friday March 24, 2017 @04:31PM (#13952006)
Right, the point is that you don't have the right to use whatever frequencies you want because the usage of the frequency spectrum is highly regulated, and for good reasons.
Re:Google Talk Is Being Discontinued by eric_the_read on Friday March 24, 2017 @04:51PM (#13952127)
Basically none of which apply to IM.
Re:Google Talk Is Being Discontinued by shmerl on Friday March 24, 2017 @04:19PM (#13951935)
> I'm not a big fan of legislating technical standards, but in this case I think I could support it

I feel another such example is IPv6. It could move much faster if it would have been mandatory already.

Re:Google Talk Is Being Discontinued by DaiPlusPlus on Friday March 24, 2017 @04:50PM (#13952120)
China has effectively mandated IPv6, and IPv6 certainly is popular in China (I think all mobile phones in PRC use IPv6, I may be wrong) - but let's not forget that China is promoting IPv6 because APNIC's allocated IPv4 space for China was comically undersized.
Re:Google Talk Is Being Discontinued by Hexcles on Friday March 24, 2017 @07:52PM (#13953197)
Unfortunately this is not the fact. While some ISPs are experimenting with IPv6, the vast majority are not on that train. Indeed, IPv4 address space has practically run out in China already, but many ISPs are taking the nasty NAT-like approaches, Carrier-grade NAT [1] for example. And it is particularly common in mobile. So far, IPv6 is only (relatively) well accepted among universities (CERNET [2]).

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carrier-grade_NAT [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CERNET

Re:Google Talk Is Being Discontinued by p1mrx on Friday March 24, 2017 @08:05PM (#13953257)
The Great Firewall likely affects the reliability of everybody's stats, but China seems to be way behind the US in terms of IPv6 deployment. (<3% versus 30%):

- https://www.google.com/intl/en/ipv6/statistics.html#tab=per-...

- https://stats.labs.apnic.net/ipv6/CN vs https://stats.labs.apnic.net/ipv6/US

Re:Google Talk Is Being Discontinued by roylez on Friday March 24, 2017 @05:18PM (#13952286)
Nope. If mobile network uses ipv6 then people would have no problem accessing Facebook
Re:Google Talk Is Being Discontinued by djsumdog on Friday March 24, 2017 @05:56PM (#13952558)
You do realize how firewalls work, right? You have iptables and ip6tables. Sure you need entries for both, and sometimes ISPs forget, but it's easily implementable in all major routers and operating systems.
Re:Google Talk Is Being Discontinued by roylez on Saturday March 25, 2017 @04:41PM (#13957476)
Firewall rules are not yet implementated on ipv6 network in China by ISP. It is a fact, and actually people are using ipv6 network as a means of bypassing the wall.
Re:Google Talk Is Being Discontinued by emmelaich on Friday March 24, 2017 @08:07PM (#13953265)
And everything else would have slowed down because of resources (human and other) devoted to ipv6, and the complexity of ipv6.
Re:Google Talk Is Being Discontinued by fnord123 on Friday March 24, 2017 @05:09PM (#13952238)
I don't think it needs legislation as such but could be worked from a licensing point of view.

Everyone moans about AGPL. Fine. Make something better that says if you're going to interoperate with a service, you better damn well actually interoperate. Make the license viral like GPL and hopefully when we all push in that direction, everyone needs to join up.

Re:Google Talk Is Being Discontinued by jsz0 on Friday March 24, 2017 @11:01PM (#13953868)
> IM needs to be forcefully standardized.

This is totally crazy to me. It would be like the government legislating when and where people have spoken conversations with each other.

Re:Google Talk Is Being Discontinued by yladiz on Friday March 24, 2017 @11:28PM (#13953948)
No, it's not. What you're proposing would be like the government saying you can only use this specific service, which may be run by the government, to communicate with others. Standardizing IM is making is so that if you want to talk to your friend across the country you're able to using different applications but the same protocol. Forcefully standardized would be mandating any messaging app that's used in the country would have to follow the protocol. It's almost the same thing that happened to fax machines in the 70s and 80s before the Japanese government stepped in.
Re:Google Talk Is Being Discontinued by TheSpiceIsLife on Saturday March 25, 2017 @03:09AM (#13954453)
How would this look different to SMS, except that the protocol might be more feature rich.
Re:Google Talk Is Being Discontinued by xster on Friday March 24, 2017 @04:34PM (#13952023)
Though I don't think the legislature even uses IM let alone understand it and understand it technically.
Re:Google Talk Is Being Discontinued by nickpsecurity on Friday March 24, 2017 @04:42PM (#13952066)
Keep it simple. All protocols for communication and data formats for storage must be published as open source or public domain. This is to prevent or reduce lockin, walled gardens, etc. No other change. They can still compete in numerous other ways.
Re:Google Talk Is Being Discontinued by joshuata on Friday March 24, 2017 @05:10PM (#13952241)
Although this is an appealing idea, I don't think it is realistic. Lobbying would destroy any legislation almost immediately, and there would still be the issue of competing standards.

I think a more achievable version would be that any online service which maintains user data must provide a method for a user to retrieve that data in an open-source format. Some companies would deliberately obfuscate formats, such as calendar appointments as JSON rather than iCAL or another existing standard, but I think it would give users more control than they currently have.

Re:Google Talk Is Being Discontinued by nickpsecurity on Friday March 24, 2017 @05:21PM (#13952312)
"Lobbying would destroy any legislation almost immediately, and there would still be the issue of competing standards."

Oh, I agree. You're describing the effect of a corrupt government allowed to prevent or eliminate laws meant to protect its voters. I was talking about what law would be necessary if voters cared enough to push one.

Re:Google Talk Is Being Discontinued by icebraining on Friday March 24, 2017 @05:19PM (#13952294)
And the result is OOXML, which is well known for being a trainwreck and which nobody - including Microsoft - has been able to implement properly, despite being an "open standard".
Re:Google Talk Is Being Discontinued by nickpsecurity on Friday March 24, 2017 @05:23PM (#13952329)
"And the result is OOXML"

The result of open-sourcing all data formats and protocols would obviously be all the data formats and protocols released as open-source. OOXML is not the only one in existence.

Re:Google Talk Is Being Discontinued by icebraining on Friday March 24, 2017 @05:38PM (#13952441)
My point is that companies forced to do this would create abstruse formats, and then even misimplement them, to thwart those trying to interoperate.
Re:Google Talk Is Being Discontinued by pbhjpbhj on Friday March 24, 2017 @07:47PM (#13953171)
Which would be obvious, flout the law, and allow for legal action to be taken.

The company itself has to use the format for live message exchange, have to publish a full working protocol document.

With OOXML Microsoft aren't required to be able to read & write a files correctly when it's written to the protocol. As I envisage it the requirement would be to open the protocol actually used "on the wire"; again with Word Microsoft don't use OOXML as primary.

I think it's workable except perhaps in requiring political will. It's an internet age equivalent of allowing third-party car parts manufacture.

Re:Google Talk Is Being Discontinued by icebraining on Saturday March 25, 2017 @03:44AM (#13954525)
Will it be obvious? How? Browsers often fail to implement open standards like CSS, even when they have nothing to gain, it's just that shit's hard.

Microsoft don't use OOXML as primary.

Sure they do, that's what .docx files are. They've been the default since Office 2007.

Microsoft was compelled to create and implement the standard so that governments can comply with their requirements to use "open standards". And they followed all the steps, including getting it past ISO, despite the mess that the format is. And so governments can now tick the "open formats" box when purchasing Office. It's all a sham, and I don't see how it'd be otherwise with this proposed law.

Re:Google Talk Is Being Discontinued by nickpsecurity on Friday March 24, 2017 @07:30PM (#13953090)
Oh yeah. They'll probably try that. That will either be defeated with tons of sweat as it largely was in products like OpenOffice or the legal recommendation modified to attempt to deal with it. It might also be handled in the courts if the law includes language that specifically instructs to attempt simple, readable protocols to "facilitate interoperability." Obfuscations could be argued as the opposite of that in court.
Re:Google Talk Is Being Discontinued by icebraining on Saturday March 25, 2017 @03:58AM (#13954558)
That will either be defeated with tons of sweat as it largely was in products like OpenOffice

Then why do you need open standards? Every major proprietary IM protocol has been re-implemented by open source software, including Hangouts: https://bitbucket.org/EionRobb/purple-hangouts

It might also be handled in the courts if the law includes language that specifically instructs to attempt simple, readable protocols to "facilitate interoperability.

XMPP, the thing Google is being roasted for dropping support for, is often decried as being very complex and hard to implement correctly. If genuinely open protocols often end up like this, how can you possibly punish companies for writing complex, hard to implement protocols?

Re:Google Talk Is Being Discontinued by nickpsecurity on Sunday March 26, 2017 @12:46AM (#13959204)
"Then why do you need open standards?"

"This is to prevent or reduce lockin, walled gardens, etc."

What I said. I'll add that it's hard to copyright API's to sue over compatibility when the API's and their implementation are released as open-source software.

"If genuinely open protocols often end up like this"

What are you talking about? There's all kinds of results from protocol design. You chose one of the worst ones. I was a PSYC fan over that if I had to choose an IRC replacement or open chat standard. A test for new ones might be trying to run it through LANGSEC's Nail, Cap n Proto or ZeroMQ to see if they handle it easily. Anyway, it's easier to do compatible implementations if you have source and can't be sued/imprisoned for imitating it.