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Re:Suicides in Rural America Increased More Than 40% in 16 Y... by w1ntermute on Sunday March 19, 2017 @01:14AM (#13905350)
> It's lack of opportunity. What is your answer to that? Tesla isn't opening up a factory in New Hampshire anytime soon.

In generations past, Americans picked up and moved to where the opportunity was, rather than staying put. Why is it unreasonable to expect the same now?

The economy has permanently changed - those jobs are never coming back. On the other hand, moving is far, far easier in 2017 than it was for those on the Oregon Trail or the Mayflower.

Re:Suicides in Rural America Increased More Than 40% in 16 Y... by jbhatab on Sunday March 19, 2017 @01:27AM (#13905407)
Yes so you want to have every move to the city where the opportunities are. Which may be fine, but imagine for a second someone telling you that 'you should just move from where you are because where you were born isn't good enough'. Not very considerate. Also, they would be thrown into an environment that is wildly different than there own with far less money than everyone else and lack of skillets and knowledge to thrive.

They would be an extreme disadvatantage. Now I don't disagree that that may be a solution, but seriously take a step back. Ask yourself if you think you just said is empathatic towards people in rural America?

Ask yourself if you had said that about other issues in America. 'Why can't black people just start learning how to code to catch up?' 'Why can't gays just get over not being able to be officially married?'

Basically what you're saying is 'why cant people that aren't me adapt to how I operate?'

Re:Suicides in Rural America Increased More Than 40% in 16 Y... by closeparen on Sunday March 19, 2017 @04:04AM (#13905901)
>but imagine for a second someone telling you that 'you should just move from where you are because where you were born isn't good enough'

I don't have to imagine it. There are 8 cities between my great-grandfather and me.

- Russia (we don't know what city), where my great-grandfather was born.

- St. Louis, where my great-grandfather settled as a refugee from the pogroms (he was Jewish).

- Chicago, where my great-grandfather relocated for work and my grandfather did undergrad->PhD.

- Seattle, where my grandfather moved after graduation and met my grandmother from Ottawa.

- Lawrence, KS., where my grandfather got his faculty job and where my parents met.

- Rochester, NY. where my parents moved after college.

- Milwaukee, WI. because the Rochester Democrat and Chronicle was written during the evenings and delivered in the afternoon, while the Milwaukee Journal was written during the business day and delivered the following morning. My dad was a journalist and my mom was a teacher (they have both changed careers now) and they wanted to have dinner together.

- Chicago again, where I went to college.

- Berkeley, CA. where I now live for my software engineering job in San Francisco.

My family is privileged in many ways (white skin, tradition of going to college, supportive households, etc). But no one in my family's history has had the incredible privilege of being born in a place that remains suitable for an entire lifetime, much less multiple generations of lifetimes. I cannot even comprehend what it would be like to be born in a place I could stay in forever while having a decent career. That must be nice if you can get it.

In terms of public policy, I'd consider that kind of luxury to be on par with owning a vacation home. Yeah, it'd be nice if everyone could have that, but there are much more pressing problems to solve.

Re:Suicides in Rural America Increased More Than 40% in 16 Y... by taivare on Sunday March 19, 2017 @06:13PM (#13909979)
I know people whom moved from my rust belt home town and after the crash in 08' lost job(s). The one person was living in Florida for years before the crash. They were basically strong armed by social services into returning to their home states if they wanted to keep receiving assistance. I imagine they felt family ties would help ease the burden, if said person were back home near family however, in this case his only sister wasn't able to provide much beyond emotional support. I remember reading of similar cases in Hawaii after the crash, in those cases people were given flight vouchers for a resettlement to their home states.
Re:Suicides in Rural America Increased More Than 40% in 16 Y... by TuringNYC on Sunday March 19, 2017 @01:44AM (#13905482)
> imagine for a second someone telling you that 'you should just move from where you are because where you were born isn't good enough'

Now imagine telling a corporation that 'you must build your factory only in City X' -- why should they? They will build where they find space at good rents and an industrial ecosystem and workers.

What if the factory owner lives in California. So he has to move his life across the country and build in New Hampshire because a rural worker in New Hampshire didn't want to move themselves? How does this make sense?

Re:Suicides in Rural America Increased More Than 40% in 16 Y... by edraferi on Sunday March 19, 2017 @11:47AM (#13907779)
Exactly!

Viewed by the capitalist system, these communities are useless. People hate feeling useless, even if you give them everything they need to live (the Democrat's solution)

So, how do you make economically irrelevant communities viable?

I have no idea.

Re:Suicides in Rural America Increased More Than 40% in 16 Y... by zanny on Sunday March 19, 2017 @01:06PM (#13908263)
The left solution is not simply throw money at the problem and ignore if it solves it.

The basic income movement beneath a lot of this is meant to, over generations, migrate the culture from one where your work defines your value as a human being to one where you are valued for your non-monetary contributions to society as well.

Re:Suicides in Rural America Increased More Than 40% in 16 Y... by tomrod on Sunday March 19, 2017 @04:23PM (#13909400)
A good, first approach is to structure incentives to encourage people to move from irrelevant communities. Such as not punishing manufacturing for moving overseas, ending non-strategic subsidies, and similar as the stick, and funding non-profits dedicated to helping people relocate to areas with brighter opportunities.

We will have to do these things due to climate change anyway (create policies to handle migration) if the Agricultural Revolution is to ultimately win over Nomadism, we may as well figure out things that work here and now.

Re:Suicides in Rural America Increased More Than 40% in 16 Y... by georgeecollins on Monday March 20, 2017 @01:01PM (#13915744)
These communities aren't useless. They just support fewer jobs and probably a lower standard of living than they once did. This happened to coal mining towns in Wales a hundred years ago. A lot of those people came to the US. But Wales didn't become useless, it just lost a major source of employment. People will migrate, retrain, change their expectations.
Re:Suicides in Rural America Increased More Than 40% in 16 Y... by rumcajz on Monday March 20, 2017 @02:57AM (#13912286)
Make remote work the standard option whenever possible. For example, all the paper pushing work can be easily made remote and distributed to rural areas.
Re:Suicides in Rural America Increased More Than 40% in 16 Y... by sokoloff on Monday March 20, 2017 @08:04AM (#13913375)
If you make remote work the standard, why wouldn't a company offshore it to remote workers who are often wildly cheaper due to market forces and market distortions (like minimum wage laws)?

There are plenty of English reading/writing/speaking people in India capable of remote work.

Re:Suicides in Rural America Increased More Than 40% in 16 Y... by dukeluke on Sunday March 19, 2017 @10:25AM (#13907229)
Capitalism is blind to political movements, wealth inequality, and full employment. All that matters is the bottom line. This is leading to globalism, automation, and use of illegal immigration which is gutting the lower and middle classes. Would it be best for the corporation? No, of course not. But there needs to be a balance between the lower and upper classes, and right now that balance is not there. A rising economy should benefit everyone. This lack of balance is why populist politicians were so popular this election.
Re:Suicides in Rural America Increased More Than 40% in 16 Y... by TuringNYC on Sunday March 19, 2017 @11:20AM (#13907585)
Wouldn't a progressive, Bernie-style [limited] redistribution be better to achieve such a goal? Appropriate corporate tax funded social spending sound like a more efficient way to help everyone than forcing a factory owner in California to move his factory to some random rural area.

I don't run a factory, but I am a full-time co-founder of a startup. There is no way I'd move our NYC-based operation to some rural area, there is little to no specialized technical community outside the major cities. For example, would I be able to attend weekly Machine Learning meetups in West Virginia? Would I be able to have lunch regularly with VCs in Ohio? I've been overseas doing a parallel medical trial, in a big city, and still it is very difficult to operate here. The depth of community just doesn't exist.

I realize a tech startup isn't a perfect example, but I imagine some of the same concerns would be applicable to factory owners. It is simply not realistic to assume that employers (who already don't have trouble finding talent) should move to where workers are, rather than the opposite.

Re:Suicides in Rural America Increased More Than 40% in 16 Y... by dukeluke on Sunday March 19, 2017 @11:30AM (#13907660)
Factories and employers used to put factories in rural areas because of the cheap labor. Globalism has exploited the fact that many other countries don't have the labor laws or quality of life America does, and made it so rural America isn't an economically viable location to put jobs. I'd agree that a Bernie-style form of redistribution would be ideal, but in my opinion, it's important to be politically expedient. America's political system is rigged to the point where even if a redistribution program was passed, it would be removed within a decade. Given the fact that wealth and GDP has never been higher and that corporations are having no problem finding profits, we need to find a way to make rural America an economically feasible location to put jobs again, which means ending or slowing globalization.
Re:Suicides in Rural America Increased More Than 40% in 16 Y... by ebiester on Sunday March 19, 2017 @03:02PM (#13908953)
Would it solve problems if we had an equivalent to meetup for online meetups such as the above? If we suggest all can be done online, why aren't our meetups online? Certainly, time zones are an issue, and some meetup functions can be duplicated by a mailing list or forum, but why haven't we figured this one out? (The time zone could be solved by having multiple meetups and people go to the ones which are better for their time, for example.) And a speaker is something is probably easier than the average user group - someone just joins from their house...
Re:Suicides in Rural America Increased More Than 40% in 16 Y... by tomrod on Sunday March 19, 2017 @04:28PM (#13909426)
> Would I be able to have lunch regularly with VCs in Ohio?

Yes. There is a fantastic, burgeoning startup community in Ohio. One that seems to be getting traction is Root, an really innovative insurance company (I'm not affiliated with Root).

Re:Suicides in Rural America Increased More Than 40% in 16 Y... by sevensor on Sunday March 19, 2017 @03:25PM (#13909101)
Have you visited Ohio? There are cities there. My company is working with a startup in Akron that's doing some neat stuff. You can bet it's not strip-mining the social graph.
Re:Suicides in Rural America Increased More Than 40% in 16 Y... by TuringNYC on Monday March 20, 2017 @02:04AM (#13912097)
Funny story -- Yes! I did visit Ohio, to see a VC actually. I was able to get a single VC meeting for the whole trip. Perhaps there are other VCs, but I found just one willing to take a meeting. The odds in NYC were higher. The odds in SF are even higher. I find it difficult to believe there VCs are as accessible in Ohio as they are in NYC/SF.
Re:Suicides in Rural America Increased More Than 40% in 16 Y... by tomrod on Sunday March 19, 2017 @11:22AM (#13907604)
> imagine for a second someone telling you that 'you should just move from where you are because where you were born isn't good enough'. Not very considerate.

Reality doesn't really care about consideration.

Are God and Nature then at strife,

That Nature lends such evil dreams?

So careful of the type she seems,

So careless of the single life;

That I, considering everywhere

Her secret meaning in her deeds,

And finding that of fifty seeds

She often brings but one to bear,

I falter where I firmly trod,

And falling with my weight of cares

Upon the great world's altar-stairs

That slope thro' darkness up to God,

I stretch lame hands of faith, and grope,

And gather dust and chaff, and call

To what I feel is Lord of all,

And faintly trust the larger hope.

-Tennyson

Re:Suicides in Rural America Increased More Than 40% in 16 Y... by solatic on Monday March 20, 2017 @01:47PM (#13916141)
> Ask yourself if you think you just said is empathatic towards people in rural America?

It's not a matter of empathy. There are laws of economics at play. The free market chooses the most competitive products and the most competitive products are made in economic centers. Capitalism favors cities. These economic forces are forces of nature, and opposing them is like opposing the laws of physics.

Now, the government can step in to pump money into rural areas in various ways (direct investment, tax credits, etc.), to make their products more competitive. But that's unsustainable, and once you turn on the spigot you can't turn it off without hurting people even more. You want to know what it looks like when the government makes a determination on which areas are going to make which things, market competition be damned, for social reasons? It looks like the Soviet Union.

We live in some very weird times if Republicans are getting elected to promote Soviet economic policy in America.

Re:Suicides in Rural America Increased More Than 40% in 16 Y... by NotSammyHagar on Monday March 20, 2017 @02:06AM (#13912107)
I moved to the west coast from the south because educational and job opportunities were way better. I had finished my bs, but it was a very low avg state school. what i did anyone could. i want to help others but i dont know how.
Re:Suicides in Rural America Increased More Than 40% in 16 Y... by VLM on Sunday March 19, 2017 @09:27AM (#13906900)
The last people to the pyramid game are the suckers, so there's little motivation to commit financial suicide so a boomer can cash in and retire in wealth by selling to you.

Also the overall standard of living is lower in cities than in rural areas for non-1% job categories. You'll make maybe 10% more money while paying 20% more and living in higher crime and worse conditions as a welder, for example.

Its not even clear for "computer people" that the overall standard of living is better in a city. We all know there's only one politically correct thing to say about urbanism, but there's a difference between being required to say under social duress vs actually is.

Re:Suicides in Rural America Increased More Than 40% in 16 Y... by dashundchen on Sunday March 19, 2017 @10:34PM (#13911290)
>¤We all know there's only one politically correct thing to say about urbanism, but there's a difference between being required to say under social duress vs actually is.

I'm not sure what this means, can you expand on this?

Re:Suicides in Rural America Increased More Than 40% in 16 Y... by malandrew on Sunday March 19, 2017 @01:29PM (#13908436)
The difference is decades of economic policy that encouraged people to dump their life savings into owning their own home. When you've invested heavily in something, you tend to suffer from sunk costs fallacy. Add to that the fact, that those that own the homes and the land are typically the leaders in their community and you have those invested in a place encouraging others to stay there as it dies. Those that own the home can move out, but if enough do so, then the only prospect for the laggards is abandoning the home and losing it all.

I agree that people should move, but circumstances are different today.

I'd love to see more sociology and economic research in how towns die and recover. Tons of money studies urban poverty and decay, and I suspect rural poverty and decay doesn't get nearly the same attention because it's out of sight and out of mind for those funding the research.

Re:Suicides in Rural America Increased More Than 40% in 16 Y... by Broken_Hippo on Sunday March 19, 2017 @04:46PM (#13909527)
Why is it unreasonable to expect the same now? The economy has permanently changed - those jobs are never coming back. On the other hand, moving is far, far easier in 2017 than it was for those on the Oregon Trail or the Mayflower.

Transportation is easier - but lets face it, it takes money to move now just like it took money to move back then. This is the entire reason we can't expect folks to just be able to move. There aren't jobs coming back, so they have no income. If they are lucky, they make minimum wage. And to make more money, they have to save up first month's rent, deposit, utility deposits, plus the actual moving expenses. All this for a city likely to be more expensive than their rural location. It isn't much wonder why folks aren't moving more often.

Sure, one could find work in the nearest town, but that takes commute money. If one has a friend they can live with, that helps, but many don't.

Re:Suicides in Rural America Increased More Than 40% in 16 Y... by mc32 on Sunday March 19, 2017 @01:16AM (#13905362)
Presumably the cost of living in cities with growing economies disincentivizes poor people from moving.
Re:Suicides in Rural America Increased More Than 40% in 16 Y... by tomrod on Sunday March 19, 2017 @01:26AM (#13905401)
To cities, perhaps, but not to areas of opportunities (even fleeting). Consider South Dakota.
Re:Suicides in Rural America Increased More Than 40% in 16 Y... by protomyth on Sunday March 19, 2017 @02:14AM (#13905581)
What exactly is drawing people to South Dakota?
Re:Suicides in Rural America Increased More Than 40% in 16 Y... by knz on Sunday March 19, 2017 @11:14AM (#13907541)
Sioux Falls is booming after a decade of investment by the financial and medical industries.

Sanford Health is particularly noticeable - there are multiple hospitals and research centers there or under construction.

I believe the banking is mostly credit card companies and cheque printing.

It's got a surprising number of amenities for a small city and if you can stand the location and politics it's got relatively high wages and low cost of living.

Re:Suicides in Rural America Increased More Than 40% in 16 Y... by tomrod on Sunday March 19, 2017 @07:35AM (#13906498)
Oy. It was too late at night for me when I wrote this. I meant North Dakota, referencing fracking jobs.
Re:Suicides in Rural America Increased More Than 40% in 16 Y... by tomrod on Sunday March 19, 2017 @11:33AM (#13907683)
But by happy circumstance, it seems Sioux Falls is booming. So I wasn't completely wrong.
Re:Suicides in Rural America Increased More Than 40% in 16 Y... by protomyth on Sunday March 19, 2017 @11:41AM (#13907737)
I figured that was the case, but Sioux Falls also does a lot of advertising in the Twin Cities (Minneapolis / St. Paul MN) to convince businesses to move.

Sioux Falls is actually a pretty nice town. SD is a bit strange because the capital of the state is such a small town. SD also has no state income taxes for individuals or businesses.

Re:Suicides in Rural America Increased More Than 40% in 16 Y... by blusterXY on Sunday March 19, 2017 @04:39AM (#13905981)
In a vibrant economy, jobs move to where there are workers. That is the reason so many factories were built out of the major cities in the first place.

Trump is right to identify insufficient aggregate demand as the cause of unemployment in the midwest and underemployment pretty much everywhere. The culprit is much more China than Mexico. If the administration can significantly reduce the trade deficit it will have very positive effects on US employment and income.

Re:Suicides in Rural America Increased More Than 40% in 16 Y... by azemetre on Sunday March 19, 2017 @09:59AM (#13907103)
The culprit is neither China or Mexico, it's automation [1]. To say anything else is to deny reality.

You can accomplish far more today with the advances in robotics and logistics than you could 30 or even 20 years ago.

This is an example of a brewery working at full capacity with a total of 6 people per shift. If this brewery was operated 35 years ago it would be 600 people per shift.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2tLim5pkfOw

So how exactly are you going to stop these owners of capital that are so rightfully praised in the United States? You have entire cities that will offer free electricity, massive tax incentives, and looser regulations for what? A couple hundred jobs? What about the tens of thousands of people that are out of work? Are we really going to subsidize hundreds of thousands of tax dollars for jobs that barely pay $15/hour?

I don't know what the solution is but I do know it will require massive amounts of tax dollars and it won't be the poor paying it.

[1] https://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/21/upshot/the-long-term-jobs...

Re:Suicides in Rural America Increased More Than 40% in 16 Y... by dukeluke on Sunday March 19, 2017 @10:31AM (#13907276)
The problem now is automation, but that's because all of the jobs that couldn't be automated have already been shipped overseas. I argue that automation, globalization, and arguably illegal immigration are the three largest factors gutting the lower and middle classes in America. Also, you don't have to give better jobs to everyone, just a big chunk. There are ~10 million illegal immigrants in the US, which has a population of ~300 million. Right or wrong, shipping them out or giving some sort of work visa(to require at least minimum wage pay) would raise demand for lower class jobs to the point where lower and middle class wages may finally start rising again.

Edited to recognize the open debate on illegal immigration. I don't understand how illegal immigration could lead to a better job outlook for the lower class. If anyone has some info on that, I'd appreciate it.

Re:Suicides in Rural America Increased More Than 40% in 16 Y... by zimzam on Sunday March 19, 2017 @11:26AM (#13907636)
Nope: you forget that immigrants (legal or otherwise) increase demand for goods in their local economy which creates demand for jobs to fulfill these goods. Research shows that this demand creates more jobs than the immigrants "consume".
Re:Suicides in Rural America Increased More Than 40% in 16 Y... by mistermann on Sunday March 19, 2017 @12:58PM (#13908215)
> Research shows that this demand creates more jobs than the immigrants "consume".

This seems a bit counter-intuitive to me, could you point me to any research?

Re:Suicides in Rural America Increased More Than 40% in 16 Y... by closeparen on Sunday March 19, 2017 @06:20PM (#13910013)
Jobs are made possible by consumption. Illegal immigrants are consumers too.

Without them, we'd have fewer workers competing for jobs, which seems like a good thing, but we'd also have fewer jobs to go around because of decreased consumption.

Re:Suicides in Rural America Increased More Than 40% in 16 Y... by mistermann on Monday March 20, 2017 @11:20AM (#13914909)
That's a fine theory but do you have any proof?
Re:Suicides in Rural America Increased More Than 40% in 16 Y... by zimzam on Monday March 20, 2017 @09:33PM (#13919085)
This episode of the "Science Vs" podcast goes over a lot of research on immigration including what I mentioned about job creation: https://gimletmedia.com/episode/immigration/
Re:Suicides in Rural America Increased More Than 40% in 16 Y... by tomrod on Sunday March 19, 2017 @11:30AM (#13907659)
The first two are on point. The third is politically motivated. The question of whether illegal immigrants contribute more to everyone is still relatively open: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_impact_of_illegal_imm...
Re:Suicides in Rural America Increased More Than 40% in 16 Y... by blusterXY on Monday March 20, 2017 @07:23AM (#13913190)
Read the NYT piece again: it cites evidence the trade deficit is a major problem. Of course, since accepting this means admitting that Trump is correct on trade, the authors immediately write-off the evidence by insisting that these jobs would eventually disappear anyway. So can we really blame China?

Unfortunately, the problem is not about keeping any particular job so much as keeping the American economy vibrant enough to create new jobs as the old ones disappear. This requires the economy to operate at full employment, which requires adequate aggregate demand, which requires... well... there's your problem with the massive trade deficit and Chinese protectionism. Put more simply, if the Chinese were purchasing as much from the United States as they were selling into it, there would be a lot more job opportunities in the industries selling to China. Those would drive up wages and create competition to hire those newly unemployed.

Incidentally, it is worth remarking on the fact that China is going through the same pattern of automation and labor dislocation as the United States. The country also has an endemic problem with rent-capture and corruption that works against an efficient private sector. Despite this, the economy is doing much better at job creation largely because of the country's mercantilism: its politically engineered trade surplus ensures adequate demand in the southern export-oriented parts of the economy, while state control of the financial sector serves to redistributes gains from trade to the SOE sector etc.

Re:Suicides in Rural America Increased More Than 40% in 16 Y... by prodmerc on Sunday March 19, 2017 @09:27AM (#13906902)
Workers move where there are jobs. I haven't seen anything else, anywhere.

Factories were built where it was cheap or where the founders decided, but to be fair, as close to people as possible.

Re:Suicides in Rural America Increased More Than 40% in 16 Y... by BrailleHunting on Sunday March 19, 2017 @08:19AM (#13906659)
Ask any dairy farmer in the US: it's mostly Latinos whom do the dirty work that in-country people scoff at. If you want something done in the US, it's usually immigrants whom do the hard work.

If people are willing to schlep they have the opportunity to feel purpose and a sense of accomplishment, but if they're going to sit idle and/or get wasted, that's the surest path to rusty irrelevancy. Folks need to bootstrap themselves and find/invent useful contribution to society that can turn a profit, rather than expecting someone to show up and hand it to them.

Re:Suicides in Rural America Increased More Than 40% in 16 Y... by pmorici on Sunday March 19, 2017 @09:26AM (#13906895)
At what wage? Pretty sure if shoveling cow shit paid an executives salary you would have no problem finding people willing to do it w/o turning to under the table labor.
Re:Suicides in Rural America Increased More Than 40% in 16 Y... by tomrod on Sunday March 19, 2017 @11:32AM (#13907676)
Mike Rowe is often an interesting one to follow for this kind of information, regardless of one's political leanings.

http://mikerowe.com/2016/02/stopignoringskillsgap/

Re:Suicides in Rural America Increased More Than 40% in 16 Y... by pmorici on Sunday March 19, 2017 @12:08PM (#13907901)
Yeah, I like Rowe's stuff on the skills gap but I don't think what he is talking about in that article, skilled trades, and what the op is discussing, unskilled farm hand and factory labor, is the same labor market.