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Re:Alphabet's Waymo Alleges Uber Stole Self-Driving Secrets by xt00 on Thursday February 23, 2017 @06:11PM (#13718795)
Yea that's incredibly bad if that's what that guy did.. in general for EE designs, the schematic/layouts are not that hard to deduce how you would do it if you are in contact with the company that makes the LIDAR device (the unique and difficult part -- basically just need to ask them, like "yo, how roughly should I interface with this thing and whats your recommendation on a number of the components.. and can you give me a reference schematic.."). So copying stuff means that the guy actually probably was clueless as to how it actually worked and planned to just hand it off to somebody else who did understand it -- so definitely super bad...
Re:Alphabet's Waymo Alleges Uber Stole Self-Driving Secrets by danielweber on Thursday February 23, 2017 @09:29PM (#13720358)
Many many years ago, I was at a software company, and a competitor popped up making very similar software. They made a presentation of their software at a conference, and had a slide showing a screenshot. Our typos were clearly visible.

Fun times, fun times. We got a few people fired, but that was about it.

Re:Alphabet's Waymo Alleges Uber Stole Self-Driving Secrets by curun1r on Friday February 24, 2017 @01:44AM (#13721598)
I used to work at a small company that made a SaaS product for a niche HR function. One of our largest customers, a bank whose ATMs you likely see every day if you're in the US, decided to drop our service in favor of a solution built in-house. We were disappointed, but had to let them go.

Then, about 2 years after they'd canceled, our support department got a strange email from a user that was having problems. At first, the support rep didn't understand the issue and asked the user for screenshots of the problem. Sure enough, the screen shots looked exactly like our old product, which had been decommissioned over a year prior. It even had our support email address and phone number on it. It turns out the version of the software they developed in-house started by scraping our site, renaming all the .html files to .aspx and then making the dynamic parts be data driven.

When we called them on it, they basically threatened to use lawyers to put us out of business if we pursued the issue, so I guess our management decided to drop it. We did make them change the support email and phone number.

Re:Alphabet's Waymo Alleges Uber Stole Self-Driving Secrets by unityByFreedom on Friday February 24, 2017 @03:00AM (#13721882)
> When we called them on it, they basically threatened to use lawyers to put us out of business if we pursued the issue, so I guess our management decided to drop it. We did make them change the support email and phone number.

This is why we can't have nice things. Darned lawyers. Can't live with them, can't live without them

Re:Alphabet's Waymo Alleges Uber Stole Self-Driving Secrets by non_sequitur on Friday February 24, 2017 @11:15AM (#13724936)
To be fair ...saying you'd use lawyers to put someone out of business makes no sense unless the company had done something that the lawyers could go after. Hating on lawyers for being aimed at a company is like hating the court system for being available. The bigco's lawyers arent doing this of their own motivation. I'm' sure there was other stuff going on that made the op's company back down.
Re:Alphabet's Waymo Alleges Uber Stole Self-Driving Secrets by sangnoir on Friday February 24, 2017 @02:06PM (#13726616)
Yet another believer in the Just world hypothesis...

As Cardinal Richelieu said[1] about 400 years ago: Give me six lines written by the most honest man in the world, and I will find enough in them to hang him

1. the attribution of this quote is disputed

Re:Alphabet's Waymo Alleges Uber Stole Self-Driving Secrets by curun1r on Saturday February 25, 2017 @12:22PM (#13732569)
In this case, I believe the threat was twofold. They'd drag out proceedings so that we couldn't have afforded to make it to a judgment. But they'd also threaten to cancel a deal with one of our other large customers if they didn't cancel with us. Knowing basically our customer list and how much those customers paid for the software, it wasn't much work to infer the company's somewhat tenuous financial situation. They guessed, correctly, that we'd drop it rather than risk the company's future on a successful lawsuit that, win or lose, would likely mean the loss of a significant customer.

There was nothing we'd done as a company that was actionable.

Re:Alphabet's Waymo Alleges Uber Stole Self-Driving Secrets by ytpete on Saturday February 25, 2017 @02:46AM (#13730549)
I wouldn't assume so: a larger company can afford to sink a lot more money into litigation, so they could effectively bleed the small company dry defending even a frivolous lawsuit.

Patent trolls are one example of this - where they may deliberately select weaker defendants (instead of going after the bigco "infringers") so ensure they hold the upper hand in the financial power imbalance.

Re:Alphabet's Waymo Alleges Uber Stole Self-Driving Secrets by unityByFreedom on Friday February 24, 2017 @11:19PM (#13730032)
I was only kidding. You can say that of any profession.

Some day people will say the same of software engineers.

Re:Alphabet's Waymo Alleges Uber Stole Self-Driving Secrets by squarefoot on Monday February 27, 2017 @05:45PM (#13749198)
"This is why we can't have nice things. Darned lawyers. Can't live with them, can't live without them"

A lawyer can screw you badly, but if you want to screw a lawyer you need another lawyer. If taken as a category, they never lose.

Re:Alphabet's Waymo Alleges Uber Stole Self-Driving Secrets by mariusmg on Friday February 24, 2017 @09:33AM (#13723933)
>can't live without them

Really?

Re:Alphabet's Waymo Alleges Uber Stole Self-Driving Secrets by ocdtrekkie on Friday February 24, 2017 @10:07AM (#13724270)
Without lawyers, Google would need to actually secure their data, rather than counting on lawyers to clean up the mess they made here.
Re:Alphabet's Waymo Alleges Uber Stole Self-Driving Secrets by jlebrech on Friday February 24, 2017 @03:00AM (#13721884)
you could have put their ip in a firewall or rate limited their access to mess with them.
Re:Alphabet's Waymo Alleges Uber Stole Self-Driving Secrets by mysticmarvel on Friday February 24, 2017 @09:38AM (#13723982)
One does not simply "mess with" an international bank.
Re:Alphabet's Waymo Alleges Uber Stole Self-Driving Secrets by castratikron on Friday February 24, 2017 @05:42PM (#13728616)
Re:Alphabet's Waymo Alleges Uber Stole Self-Driving Secrets by mevile on Thursday February 23, 2017 @06:48PM (#13719117)
It seems criminal. I remember an engineer from goldman sachs went to prison for doing something similar.
Re:Alphabet's Waymo Alleges Uber Stole Self-Driving Secrets by itchyouch on Thursday February 23, 2017 @11:14PM (#13720941)
Based on the story from Flash Boys, that Goldman engineer was taking something like a couple of megs worth of his own work that was related to various open source projects. But he became the poster boy for stealing trade secrets and an example to be made of.

His mistake was that he used the company internet connection to upload said source files to something like his personal github or dropbox of the sort, so there were proxy logs of him stealing corporate secrets.

Most people would've gotten their personal-ish data off a corporate laptop with a usb key/harddrive which they probably wouldn't have triggered any alarms.

Re:Alphabet's Waymo Alleges Uber Stole Self-Driving Secrets by isubkhankulov on Friday February 24, 2017 @12:31AM (#13721280)
> Most people would've gotten their personal-ish data off a corporate laptop with a usb key/harddrive which they probably wouldn't have triggered any alarms.

Most top banks use Citrix technology (or similar virtual desktops) to stream workstations for employees accessing both locally and remotely, so the only way you can get data out is by using your phone to take photos.

Re:Alphabet's Waymo Alleges Uber Stole Self-Driving Secrets by rayiner on Thursday February 23, 2017 @11:46PM (#13721083)
The Flash Boys presentation is not accurate: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9047068. (Though I don't think you should be sent to prison for a crime like that.)
Re:Alphabet's Waymo Alleges Uber Stole Self-Driving Secrets by rtkwe on Friday February 24, 2017 @01:40AM (#13721579)
Banks and similar financial companies are extremely paranoid about data security. Working at one all USB drives were mounter read only unless they were specifically provided by the company and encrypted using provided software. Anywhere you could upload files was blocked as well.
Re:Alphabet's Waymo Alleges Uber Stole Self-Driving Secrets by nradov on Friday February 24, 2017 @01:07AM (#13721456)
Companies that care about data security typically disable write access on USB ports.
Re:Alphabet's Waymo Alleges Uber Stole Self-Driving Secrets by estro on Friday February 24, 2017 @01:48PM (#13726429)
What's to stop someone from sending sensitive data as an attachment via email using an encrypted email service? I don't think a proxy can detect much besides data size correct? I suppose a virtual desktop could log which files are uploaded.
Re:Alphabet's Waymo Alleges Uber Stole Self-Driving Secrets by dzhiurgis on Saturday February 25, 2017 @12:06AM (#13730169)
Most email servers reject that (I tried to send something to a Deloitte consultant and gave up after password protecting ZIP file).

While most of such companies actively MITM their HTTPS connections (I wonder whether Google does that - theoretically they are CA so it would be extra easy for them), you could probably get away to uploading said file to any service that is small enough to be unknown to corporate firewall providers (Symantec, etc).

Re:Alphabet's Waymo Alleges Uber Stole Self-Driving Secrets by tyingq on Thursday February 23, 2017 @07:06PM (#13719285)
It also seems like the least interesting thing to steal. The hard part is probably the software and access to real world driving data. It is like holding up a bank and walking out with just the coins. The risk reward profile is terrible.
Re:Alphabet's Waymo Alleges Uber Stole Self-Driving Secrets by philsnow on Thursday February 23, 2017 @08:50PM (#13720126)
I thought waymo's lidar sensors were much, much cheaper than other sensors: https://arstechnica.com/cars/2017/01/googles-waymo-invests-i...

We're talking about reducing a ~$25000 part to ~$2500.

Re:Alphabet's Waymo Alleges Uber Stole Self-Driving Secrets by Qworg on Friday February 24, 2017 @05:01AM (#13722403)
A factor of 10 and at least 3-4 years of engineering work? Yeah, that's no small potatoes.
Re:Alphabet's Waymo Alleges Uber Stole Self-Driving Secrets by tyingq on Friday February 24, 2017 @07:38AM (#13723045)
That was a result, though, of Google collaborating with Velodyne. I suspect Velodyne would have reduced pricing to everyone as a result. And Google's not the only entity working towards less expensive LiDAR. There's Delphi/Quanergy, etc.

Just seems like a huge risk to save maybe $10k per vehicle (assuming price drops for everyone) for some relatively short time period.

Re:Alphabet's Waymo Alleges Uber Stole Self-Driving Secrets by Fricken on Thursday February 23, 2017 @08:35PM (#13720024)
Levandowski allegedly downloaded 14,000 files. The lidar circuit designs, while arguably trivial, are what Waymo can prove have been appropriated.
Re:Alphabet's Waymo Alleges Uber Stole Self-Driving Secrets by Qworg on Friday February 24, 2017 @05:00AM (#13722402)
Discovery will likely find more things, no?
Re:Alphabet's Waymo Alleges Uber Stole Self-Driving Secrets by lithos on Thursday February 23, 2017 @08:53PM (#13720150)
I imagine there are more software people capable of programming their way through the problem than electrical engineers that can work their way through it.

An electrical engineer is also going to see the Uber name and expect Valley idiocy, while being a being a secondary concern for not being softwary enough.

Re:Alphabet's Waymo Alleges Uber Stole Self-Driving Secrets by austinl on Thursday February 23, 2017 @08:51PM (#13720133)
That would be Sergey Aleynikov [0]. I'd recommend reading Flash Boys by Michael Lewis [1], who covers this story in detail. Sergey's case seems much more nuanced, and if I remember, Lewis takes his side on a number of issues.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sergey_Aleynikov [1] https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/24724602-flash-boys

Re:Alphabet's Waymo Alleges Uber Stole Self-Driving Secrets by dsacco on Thursday February 23, 2017 @09:45PM (#13720454)
...and then after that, do also read Flash Boys: Not So Fast by Peter Kovac. Not necessarily for Aleynikov's case in particular, but because it's healthy to see both sides of the greater narrative that Lewis unfolds.
Re:Alphabet's Waymo Alleges Uber Stole Self-Driving Secrets by jonstewart on Thursday February 23, 2017 @10:19PM (#13720626)
It's definitely criminal.
Re:Alphabet's Waymo Alleges Uber Stole Self-Driving Secrets by smilekzs on Thursday February 23, 2017 @06:19PM (#13718862)
There however could be custom-ordered parts on the BOM, documentation of which might be under NDA.
Re:Alphabet's Waymo Alleges Uber Stole Self-Driving Secrets by xt00 on Thursday February 23, 2017 @06:24PM (#13718911)
Yes good point. That would be super obvious that they stole it then.. "yea, could I order the BA33525 part that you custom built for somebody else.. yea I know its undocumented, but I know you have it somehow...."
Re:Alphabet's Waymo Alleges Uber Stole Self-Driving Secrets by daurnimator on Thursday February 23, 2017 @06:39PM (#13719037)
You do that sort of thing all the time though with electronics: I'll open it up, and find some undocumented chip variant and see if I can source it elsewhere, I'll also search+email around to see if I can find a datasheet anywhere. If it's not printed on the chip you'll probably be able to get it out of JTAG.
Re:Alphabet's Waymo Alleges Uber Stole Self-Driving Secrets by CPLX on Thursday February 23, 2017 @07:52PM (#13719711)
Sure, when you have physical access to the device, which wouldn't seem to apply at all here.
Re:Alphabet's Waymo Alleges Uber Stole Self-Driving Secrets by guelo on Thursday February 23, 2017 @08:11PM (#13719876)
From the medium post "downloaded additional highly confidential information pertaining to our custom-built LiDAR including supplier lists, manufacturing details and statements of work with highly technical information."
Re:Alphabet's Waymo Alleges Uber Stole Self-Driving Secrets by Fricken on Friday February 24, 2017 @10:39AM (#13724597)
Levandowski does have some specialized technical knowledge of Lidar, he started up 510 systems, a company focused on making Lidar for robots, which was quietly bought up by Google in 2011.

http://spectrum.ieee.org/robotics/artificial-intelligence/th...

Re:Alphabet's Waymo Alleges Uber Stole Self-Driving Secrets by LargeCompanies on Thursday February 23, 2017 @08:44PM (#13720089)
He is a great fit as an Uber executive... another greedy pig!

This one broke many laws and needs to go to jail!