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A comment on Apple proposes new web 3D graphics API. Parent comment

Re:Apple proposes new web 3D graphics API by zbuttram on Tuesday February 07, 2017 @06:58PM (#13594300)
What people seem to be missing here is that based on available info it seems Microsoft isn't officially supporting Vulkan either. Sure Nvidia and AMD have released drivers for Windows that have Vulkan support, but we're talking about a web standard that would need to be implemented by browser makers and if Microsoft isn't going to use Vulkan, then what do they implement as the backing for this new standard in Edge? Probably DirectX. I think the idea is to sort out an API that would be compatible between all three due to Microsoft and Apple _both_ not wanting to officially support Vulkan over their own platforms in their browsers, regardless of the support at the OS level.
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Re:Apple proposes new web 3D graphics API by modeless on Tuesday February 07, 2017 @07:51PM (#13594627)
There is a difference between "not officially supporting" Vulkan and completely preventing anyone from providing a Vulkan implementation for your platform. Microsoft allows competing APIs to be integrated into their platform at the driver level. Apple does not.
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Re:Apple proposes new web 3D graphics API by cma on Tuesday February 07, 2017 @08:46PM (#13594957)
FWIW, Microsoft doesn't allow that on ARM. Only where they have previous antitrust decisions holding them back (x86).
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Re:Apple proposes new web 3D graphics API by mrec on Tuesday February 07, 2017 @09:36PM (#13595201)
It used to be the case that 3D APIs other than Direct3D couldn't be used from whatever Metro^H Windows Store apps are called this week. Which kind of blocks it at a platform-within-a-platform level.

That may have changed, I dunno.

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Re:Apple proposes new web 3D graphics API by vondur on Tuesday February 07, 2017 @08:03PM (#13594711)
Could someone not provide Vulkan driver support on the Mac or is it forbidden by Apple to do so?
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Re:Apple proposes new web 3D graphics API by mrec on Tuesday February 07, 2017 @09:33PM (#13595186)
On Windows, Vulkan support is provided by the IHV graphics drivers from Nvidia, AMD etc. On Mac, Apple themselves ship the drivers (incorporating some portions of IHV code, but ultimately all under Apple's control).
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Re:Apple proposes new web 3D graphics API by kitsunesoba on Tuesday February 07, 2017 @10:00PM (#13595304)
If you're using a newer Nvidia card, you can download and install much more up to date Mac drivers direct from Nvidia's site. Yes, Apple bundles their own drivers but there's nothing stopping hardware vendors from shipping their own Mac drivers.
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Re:Apple proposes new web 3D graphics API by dman on Tuesday February 07, 2017 @10:02PM (#13595313)
That still wont change the version of OpenGL supported by the driver as far as I know. If someone has OpenGL 4.5 working on OSX I would be very interested in finding out.
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Re:Apple proposes new web 3D graphics API by threeseed on Tuesday February 07, 2017 @08:04PM (#13594714)
Apple allows you to provide an alternative API on OSX but not on iOS.

Microsoft is exactly the same. They do not support custom APIs on Windows Mobile AFAIK.

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Re:Apple proposes new web 3D graphics API by modeless on Tuesday February 07, 2017 @08:15PM (#13594792)
> Apple allows you to provide an alternative API on OSX

I'll need a source for this claim considering that no driver-level Vulkan implementations are available on macOS.

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Re:Apple proposes new web 3D graphics API by jolux on Wednesday February 08, 2017 @01:09AM (#13596193)
macOS is not popular among gamers? I don't understand what the problem is.
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Re:Apple proposes new web 3D graphics API by threeseed on Tuesday February 07, 2017 @08:50PM (#13594973)
No. Provide a source that Apple actively prevents it.

Developers can ask users for their admin password, sudo to root and largely do whatever they want including adding kernel extensions and drivers.

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Re:Apple proposes new web 3D graphics API by snuxoll on Tuesday February 07, 2017 @09:06PM (#13595067)
kext's must be signed now, Apple can freely revoke developer certs and block them if they so desire.
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Re:Apple proposes new web 3D graphics API by threeseed on Wednesday February 08, 2017 @12:42AM (#13596097)
Signing was designed for security purposes which is the only reason where certificate revocation has been used to date. There seems to be a lot of FUD here but without any actual hard examples.
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Re:Apple proposes new web 3D graphics API by stymaar on Wednesday February 08, 2017 @06:49AM (#13597555)
But it prevents doing what you just said above :

> Developers can ask users for their admin password, sudo to root and largely do whatever they want including adding kernel extensions and drivers.

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Re:Apple proposes new web 3D graphics API by plorkyeran on Tuesday February 07, 2017 @09:56PM (#13595284)
Having a technical means to make distribution of a driver awkward is quite a few steps short of forbidding it.
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Re:Apple proposes new web 3D graphics API by nicky0 on Wednesday February 08, 2017 @05:24AM (#13597216)
But they only use these power to shut out malware. Not to nix software they don't like.
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Re:Apple proposes new web 3D graphics API by AlphaSite on Wednesday February 08, 2017 @08:45AM (#13598101)
Windows drivers need to be signed as well, whats the problem?
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Re:Apple proposes new web 3D graphics API by snuxoll on Wednesday February 08, 2017 @11:04AM (#13599258)
But not by Microsoft, you can opt to obtain WHQL certification for your driver and have MS sign them - but it's also acceptable to get a code signing cert from any trusted CA.

Apple controls all the keys for macOS, AFAIK there's not even an option to add additional CA's for code-signing trust. To get around this you have to completely disable SIP, and it's rather stupid to tell users they must disable a well-meaning (if somewhat poorly implemented) security feature to install a kext because Apple doesn't like you (no knowledge if this has happened, but it can, and I don't care for that).

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Re:Apple proposes new web 3D graphics API by stymaar on Wednesday February 08, 2017 @02:39AM (#13596559)
> sudo to root and largely do whatever they want

Not anymore, even being root doesn't give you total control now[1], and custom kernel extensions are among the things that are prohibited.

This «feature» bas been introduced in El Capitan for «security reason».

[1] System Integrity Protection : System Integrity Protection

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Re:Apple proposes new web 3D graphics API by alwillis on Wednesday February 08, 2017 @04:20AM (#13596959)
It's easy to disable System Integrity Protection:

https://developer.apple.com/library/content/documentation/Se...

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Re:Apple proposes new web 3D graphics API by stymaar on Wednesday February 08, 2017 @06:47AM (#13597553)
Let's not forget the post I was replying to :

> Developers can ask users […]

Have you ever seen anybody shipping software asking their user to do stuff like this to get their software working ?

> Boot to Recovery OS by restarting your machine and holding down the Command and R keys at startup.

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Re:Apple proposes new web 3D graphics API by vetinari on Wednesday February 08, 2017 @07:02AM (#13597618)
Sure, and your grandma (=proxy for mainstream user) is surely going to do that.

It's simply a no-go for the mainstream market that expects things to just work.

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Re:Apple proposes new web 3D graphics API by MikusR on Tuesday February 07, 2017 @08:19PM (#13594811)
It's a dead platform with no market-share.
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Re:Apple proposes new web 3D graphics API by alwillis on Wednesday February 08, 2017 @04:24AM (#13596976)
Latest results of the so-called dead platform--"iPhone, Services, Mac and Apple Watch Set All-Time Records"

http://www.apple.com/newsroom/2017/01/apple-reports-record-f...

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Re:Apple proposes new web 3D graphics API by douche on Wednesday February 08, 2017 @05:37AM (#13597272)
I think the parent claim is that Windows Mobile is a dead plarform, which, it pretty much is, after the nokia fiasco.
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Re:Apple proposes new web 3D graphics API by MikusR on Wednesday February 08, 2017 @02:37PM (#13601324)
Yes. Meant Windows mobile.
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Re:Apple proposes new web 3D graphics API by AsyncAwait on Tuesday February 07, 2017 @07:29PM (#13594466)
Why are they so hostile to Vulkan and what problems does Vulkan, which is vendor independent and open, have that adding a new API to support to the pile would not?
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Re:Apple proposes new web 3D graphics API by shmerl on Tuesday February 07, 2017 @07:40PM (#13594546)
No good reason whatsoever.
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Re:Apple proposes new web 3D graphics API by MBCook on Tuesday February 07, 2017 @10:13PM (#13595375)
Do you have a source for your claim?
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Re:Apple proposes new web 3D graphics API by shmerl on Tuesday February 07, 2017 @10:16PM (#13595383)
Lack of known good reasons, and their major infamy in perpetuating lock-in in general. They have only themselves to blame for being seen in negative light in this topic by default.
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Re:Apple proposes new web 3D graphics API by agmcleod on Wednesday February 08, 2017 @09:06AM (#13598234)
That doesn't mean their isn't good reason. I guess they believe they can build a better product by having control over the graphics pipeline. Obviously I cannot say for sure what they think in that regard, but neither can you.
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Re:Apple proposes new web 3D graphics API by shmerl on Wednesday February 08, 2017 @10:59AM (#13599211)
Not very convincing. They often used excuses of good reasons to do sinister stuff, so, they'd need to work much harder to fix their ruined reputation.
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Re:Apple proposes new web 3D graphics API by hota_mazi on Tuesday February 07, 2017 @08:59PM (#13595023)
NIAA.

Not Invented At Apple.

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Re:Apple proposes new web 3D graphics API by slavik81 on Tuesday February 07, 2017 @09:03PM (#13595043)
It's not even that. They seem to have abandoned OpenCL as well, and that was invented at Apple.
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Re:Apple proposes new web 3D graphics API by shmerl on Tuesday February 07, 2017 @10:02PM (#13595314)
It's more like "let's mess everyone else, because we can".
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Re:Apple proposes new web 3D graphics API by TazeTSchnitzel on Tuesday February 07, 2017 @08:00PM (#13594692)
> Microsoft isn't officially supporting Vulkan either

It's Microsoft's lack of official support for OpenGL on Windows that leads to WebGL implementations using of ANGLE translation to Direct3D, rather than direct OpenGL, right? So I assume we'd have the same situation for a hypothetical WebVulkan. Yes, Vulkan would be available on Windows with the right drivers, but the browsers wouldn't want to use it.

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Re:Apple proposes new web 3D graphics API by ioquatix on Wednesday February 08, 2017 @02:22AM (#13596483)
I was under the impression that DX wasn't available out of the box either? That you'd need to install suitable drivers and a suitable runtime?
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Re:Apple proposes new web 3D graphics API by pjmlp on Wednesday February 08, 2017 @03:01AM (#13596645)
Starting with Windows 7, DX became a platform component.
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Re:Apple proposes new web 3D graphics API by ioquatix on Wednesday February 08, 2017 @05:02PM (#13602590)
Every time I install a game from Steam, it almost always re-installs the DX runtime for that specific game. Is there a reason for that?
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Re:Apple proposes new web 3D graphics API by pjmlp on Wednesday February 08, 2017 @02:59AM (#13596636)
Also HN seems to forget consoles a lot, which don't support OpenGL (PS3 GL was never used in production), even Nintendo with Switch actually does have another API besides Vulkan(NVN), which devs are more keen in using as it allows even more fine grained control.
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