Does it cover stuff like cosmetic dermatology, full dental plan (implants) ? I don't live in France, I lived in different EU countries and every time I needed something the "free health care" meant I had to pay participation fee and wait 6 months walking around appointments and ended up going private clinic. I basically got 0 value out it, considering I'm young and healthy I would not have to pay much for insurance, you're mostly footing the bill for the pensioners.
>free university
Which again means nothing to anyone immigrating as a skilled worker
>pension contributions,
I sincerely doubt that by the time I hit retirement age the pension system will look anything like it does now because of multiple factors (current pension funds being structured around social transfers and constant employment growth, meanwhile automation replacing a large % of workforce permanently). Again just transfer payments to old people.
>5-7 weeks paid leave and generous unemployment insurance amongst other things
So you're going to emigrate as an expert in a sector earning top ~10-1% income for unemployment benefits ?
If you're a young professional either none of the things you listed matter to you or there are better countries than in Europe by those criteria (Nordics/Switzerland).
First, things like health care and free university are a huge deal if you plan to stay past your 30's. Consider being able to take a couple years to try a business without freaking out about health insurance. Consider being able to go get a PhD in some interesting subject without having to get a full scholarship. Consider, obviously, having kids and sending them to world-class universities without incurring any debt.
Then there's the job security aspect. It can be really nice to be employed in a country where people aren't just laid off whenever a company misses its quarterly numbers.
And finally, if you really are an actual Expert in a field where that's worth a lot of money, it's probably worth about as much in France as it is elsewhere. Sure all the "senior" programmers with 3 years' experience get paid a lot less than in the US, but I don't think the VP level does badly at all.
(Maybe I'm being naive here... my point of reference being Germany.)
I hear it can be very hard to get a proper, "permanent" job in France, but I also hear the quality of life is pretty amazing if you do.
I think this is true from looking at my family. That's exactly what I don't like about European culture: the really senior people still make a lot of money. Americans are just better at sharing down the food chain.
I feel like there are countries with better social security (and seemingly more politically stable than France, again this is just the stuff I pick up from the media) and better pay range (at least that was the case last time I was looking where to move ~2 years ago).
And most importantly - the language barrier - programmers have to speak English so English speaking countries don't have this problem.
Trying a business in a much more challenging business environment? There's not exactly a plethora of French tech startups, after all, despite the state health care.
> Consider being able to go get a PhD in some interesting subject without having to get a full scholarship.
Will universities accept some random fellow in his 30s who wants to earn a Ph.D.?
I'm in my early 30s, and up until last year never needed any sort of real medical treatment my entire life. Then I got I to a bike accident, fractured my tibia, almost needed surgery, and was damn glad that I did have health insurance. I could've just as easily not broken my ankle, or it could've been way, way worse. But I don't judge the value of insurance based on whether I happened to need it any given year; that's just dominated by chance.
Wait, what? What if you are diagnosed with a major illness? Are in a major car accident? etc, etc.
The problem in the US is that people who are otherwise comfortable and healthy have their entire fortunes turn around, for the rest of their lives, due to unforeseen illness/incidents.
Clean family history, healthy lifestyle (don't drink often, don't smoke, workout and watch my diet)
>Are in a major car accident? etc, etc.
Don't drive or do many high risk activities.
I'm probably at the bottom end of health risks - in a fair system my insurance would be minimal. Besides all other EU countries cover stuff like that (life changing scenarios).
So just because it's free doesn't make it better. Having said that, if you know the flaws it's fine. Many people go to University to have a degree for a job later, for that not having crippling debt is much more important than the absolute quality of the academic education. And post-grad courses and research don't suffer from this AFAIK.
Seems to me like the German system is very high quality, and that the UK let too many weak candidates in to University and so the first year (and every year) is getting easier to compensate...
I remember that this was the case with Scottish students (as Advanced Highers did not cover as much as A-levels) so they had to work much harder in their first year. Scottish friends seemed to be under the impression that the first year in Scottish Universities was much easier than UK equivalents...
This kind of generalisation is obviously useless, think Cambridge. Not that I'm defending all English universities, most of them aren't great. But that's true everywhere.
A big problem in Germany is that the transition to Bachelor/Master degrees has resulted in courses that are in need of refining. Badly in some cases. I'm mainly critical to the way German institutions handle undergrad degrees. Their research is top notch, and many of my friends from England went on to do research there. I think that's also an indication that English degrees are rigorous enough.
UK admissions is in principle more rigorous, by far. It acknowledges that school marks aren't everything and consideration for individuals with unusual situations or evident passion outside of school is given. Since offers are extended on a case-by-case basis, it's more fine-grained and the overcrowding, Darwinian filtering doesn't happen.
It's very easy to confuse working hard for working smart. Both will can get you to the same place, but in terms of personal development, one has to be nurtured and the other burns you out.
I lived in Austria and Switzerland. I never had to wait more than a few days and private clinics are usually allowed to go to without additional costs. Please dont project your experience to whole europe/eu
I live in the US with H1B. I still pay Social Security, and Medicare/aid every paycheck. Don't you? Isn't it the same as what you said? Paying into a social system that probably won't be in a shape to pay you later?
And when you are a pensioner, who will foot your bill?
Granted, I only get four weeks of paid leave, which is less than would be typical for a French person, but not by a dramatic amount.
I would understand your point if the raw salaries were closer with France's only slightly lower. But the difference (for people working at top tech jobs) is so extreme that no amount of free university and pensions can make up for it.
Even if I have to save for my retirement, save for my hypothetical children's future education, and so on, I'm still making a lot more in the US than I would in France.
What do you do?
YMMV on all this. A new college grad isn't going to get that kind of deal in most cases. It also helps to interview and get multiple offers. Once hired you're typically expected to work hard and demonstrate the value you add to the business.
I immediately sell all the equity I get, so it's effectively the same as cash.
Plenty of people make more than they do though. These are not especially high-paying positions, they're not even the highest paying government positions.
> financial life ruined
in the EU, not so much.
Any good healthcare plan, especially post-ACA, will not have a cap like that.
People way overvalue free healthcare. Yes, it would be nice but it's nowhere near worth the salary differential.
I pay $160/m for my health care. It's a high deductible plan, but even if I were to reach the deductible every year then my total expenses would be $9,070=(160*12)+7,150.
The compensation differential between the US and Europe is way more than $10k.
This kind of braggadocio statement is why the hate for tech workers is growing. It shows a serious lack of perspective and an incredible amount of arrogance and condescension.
It's also very untypical, even for a skilled tech worker in America.
Yes, I make an amount of money that puts me in an extremely high percentile relative to the world population. But pointing that out in a context where it's completely relevant is just conversation, not bragging.
Do you think I go around showing my W2 to random financially struggling strangers, or something? I don't.
By the way it's not as atypical as you might think, for top tech/finance jobs in the Bay Area or NYC. I know lots of people making these salaries, at companies other than mine.
As an aside: I didn't make any claims at all about whether I thought my pay was high or low, fair or unfair, whether I deserved more, how it compared to anyone else's in any other industry, etc. etc., so why exactly are you claiming I "lack perspective"? I don't think I displayed either perspective or lack thereof with my totally neutral statements.
If he or she works for a Google or a Yahoo, lives in a place like NYC, and has an advanced degree, it might be quite average.
I, for one, would appreciate it if more people would talk compensation.
Same with vacation time.
Every time I switch employers, or my employers switch insurance, it begins a long process of getting the right info (the insurance always contracts out specialty drugs), then getting that info to the doctors office (Drs offices, btw, never make it easy to talk to someone), then the doctor has to send the info to the right insurance company (rare is the doctors office that follows through the first time), then the insurance company will sit on it for a while (I've heard crazy things like "it takes 48 hours before we can confirm that we got the fax, and only then can we begin to 'process' the fax, which can take 1 day to 1 week"), and probably reject it. Then I have to find out this happened (this is absurdly difficult), then the drs office can appeal. Last time the appeal actually involved my wife's doc talking to an insurance company doc on the phone! Thankfully, her doctor is unusually reachable and was willing to do this.
So, generally speaking, it takes 1-2 months before she can get the medication that prevents her from being effectively crippled. since the previous insurance gave 1-3 months at a time, she often ends up falling behind on doses when this occurs.
I've had 2 jobs in the last 5 years, but 5 insurance companies (my companies kept spinning off or getting absorbed), and each time the process was stressful, even though each health care plan was quite good, relative to most of the US. So I can see a healthcare argument as being highly relevant.
Add in those that work 1099 or other such arrangements, and it matters more.
What would you expect from a society dealings with disabled (nothing bad) ?
Yep, did a bit of searching.
http://www.euronews.com/2016/03/30/children-losing-out-as-fr...
Nothing has changed since I last looked when I was living in Quebec.
> What would you expect from a society dealings with disabled (nothing bad) ?
What do I expect, or what do I hope? I expect that people assume that because they hospital visit for a broken leg is "free" and "good", that it carries over to autistic support, and that any suggestion otherwise is absurd and alarmist. This is usually the case.
I'd hope that they take the concerns from parents seriously and not be dismissive, even if it means they have to admit there are flaws in the system.
Also, those numbers are not directly comparable (e.g. in Germany a lot of what used to be counted as gvt is now private: the work done is the same, as are the obligations, but it appears in a different "bucket").
Bad things will happen when the average person realizes what this means: https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/WALCL
This, predictably enough, had the effect of people coming to work sick, because if you took the day off you'd lose a vacation day.
Now it seems the new trend is to have no specific number of free days, but leave it up to the employee to take however many days off he/she feels are necessary. Then it's up to their manager to deal with it if they take "too many."
This lets you tell people they can take vacations, while not carrying any liability to pay them for the unused vacation if they quit or are laid off / fired.
The downside is that there is no longer any incentive to take any specific amount of vacation (after all, it's not accrued and can't expire). So if you're really busy, maybe you'll never take more than a couple days at a time.
The upside would seem to be that if you're a top performer and manage your time very well and have a cool manager, you can potentially take a LOT of time off without violating any company policy. I have however not heard any stories of this being done.
Personally i dont mind earning less, i am close to 30 and have no financial pillow or anything. So far i just enjoyed life and spent money as i wanted to. If i get unemployed or sick i have nothing to worry, which is something i happily pay for.
I also enjoy the fact that i know people who live in my country have mostly a good life. Have enough to eat & get taken care of. I see how a different world view makes this irrelevant, but personally i feel this is worth a lot. Makes the environment generally more nice.
The take home pay certainly is much, much lower in France than in the US, but it comes with access to top-notch free healthcare, free university, pension contributions, 5-7 weeks paid leave and generous unemployment insurance amongst other things. It all adds up.
I'm French, working in London and I've been happy with the trade off of more pay for a thinner social safety net, but I know it would be foolish to compare wages directly. I suspect the difference is much less spectacular with everything taken into account.