And seriously, if web browsing is your main use-case, a MBP is overkill.
I don't understand why someone using a laptop would want to scroll by lifting their arm up to the screen, rather than just moving two fingers on the touchpad where their hand is already resting.
Not to mention, having the option to use both certainly doesn't harm anyone.
Isn't that uncomfortable?
Merely taking my hands off the keyboard is enough for them to move out and away, since I have to "swing" them in to use the keyboard to begin with. This leaves them inches from the screen in the best case, and nowhere near the computer in the worse case.
Hmm… if you did that on a new MacBook Pro, wouldn't drifting up the side leave your thumbs somewhere near the Touch Bar? Maybe Apple should add support for scrolling on its edges. Of course, that'd still be a much smaller target than the screen... on the other hand, it would work regardless of window positioning and even with an external monitor.
I'm only speculating, since I don't think I've gotten into that habit myself (not having a touchscreen).
My hands tend to rest on the mouse or table when reading. It's actually quicker and less conscious to 'flick' the screen when reading than to break focus to find a trackpad and scroll that way.
Shrug, not my experience.
> Secondly, I found the touch screen very gimmicky. I tried using it for a week and found that my hand just hurt lifting it up repeatedly and also hated switching context from the keyboard to the screen.
Don't force the touchscreen. Just use it when it makes sense. I've found it's a very natural way to press buttons (because you can just... press the button), particularly when I'm using the keyboard (e.g. filling in a multi-page form, or writing generally) - must nicer than pushing a pointer around to the right place. And it's nice when dragging and dropping, and there are a few games that play nicely that way. And being able to draw/write on it is very nice occasionally. But sure, most of the time I don't use the touchscreen. But even if you ignore the touch aspect, it's a beautiful screen. I've also fallen in love with 3:2 - it seems to strike the right balance between vertical space for development and rectangular enough for watching movies on. At least for me.
> Not to mention, the screen was full of smudge marks after awhile.
That seems like something that shouldn't be happening, assuming your hands were clean? It doesn't happen on mine.
This is like saying "Don't force the new touch bar on macbook pro. Just use it when it makes sense.". A lot of people are pissed about how useless the touch bar is. You can make the same argument about this but the thing is, they could have done better. There's nothing wrong with people criticizing something that's bad. Sure you can just "NOT use it". But these are features designed to be used, and when it doesn't make sense in many cases, it probably means it's badly thought out.
>That seems like something that shouldn't be happening, assuming your hands were clean? It doesn't happen on mine.
Good for you for having the most sanitary hand in the world. For the rest of actual human beings, everyone knows that touching any glass surface leaves smudge, not just computers. I'm fine with logical arguments but please don't deny what everyone knows as fact, because that doesn't fly, and brings credibility of the rest of your arguments down to zero.
I own an SP3 and the touchscreen is a blessing. Ironically, even more so because the touchpad on the sp3 is crap, but either way, I seem to know my fingers more than mouse pointers on the screen and prefer to touch the screen as often as possible.
It's not for everyone, but for me, I can dual boot Linux on it, write code, still keep MagSafe charging, have a USB port, AND disconnect the keyboard at the end of the way to watch a movie on a kickstand tablet, AND throw it in my bag and forget it's there, for much less money than a macbook. I love the thing to death.
Also, the screen can be cleaned with a cloth or the bottom of your shirt, like most of us do with our phones. That might be annoying but doesn't sound like a deal breaker.
The touch capability is interesting in that I've found that I've begun using it along with the pen more and more over time. The pen has really grown on me as I've discovered more ways to put it to use. For the first year that I owned my SP3 I rarely used the pen, but now I use it almost every day. Being able to switch from full on tablet and pen back to keyboard and mouse mode is pretty killer and I plan to continue using this form factor for the foreseeable future.
it takes away "thinness". I wanted a thinner screen and when the computer MUST have a touchscreen, then I lose the thinnness.
I think people are more annoyed about losing the physical function keys. Honestly the touchscreen is niche functionality unless you're an artist or something, and if it were a choice between a brighter/sharper/clearer non-touch screen and a touchscreen I would absolutely go for the former. But like I said, the surface book screen is really good even if you ignore the touch aspect - at which point the touch really does just become an enhancement, and the little enhancements add up.
> For the rest of actual human beings, everyone knows that touching any glass surface leaves smudge, not just computers.
Indeed, which is why I was very surprised when it didn't happen (it did on previous laptops I've used). But it doesn't seem to. I figured the anti-grease coatings or whatever they use must've got a lot better. (Modern phones are the same - whatever it is that makes the screens smudge they seem to have found some way to deal with it. So it's not like this is magical technology).
I hate to say it, but this post definitely has the ring of fanboyism.
The build quality of the Surface is "nowhere near a MacBook Pro" ... without specifying anything that's actually worse.
The point of the MBP is "always to be leap years ahead" on specs, but in reality, they never really are; they're usually comparable to other high-end laptops, although they are normally the priciest by about $1k and among the least repairable/extensible.
Speaking of gimmicks, you've apparently seriously suggested that Apple just need to make even thinner edges.
Maybe I'm just a tasteless philistine like all the other non-Mac users, but personally I think you may've had a bit too much kool-aid.
I used a 2007 MBP as my main computer for a while (and it was my only laptop for years), and I've also used a work-issued 2013 MBP for extended periods of time. There are certainly nice things about Macs (I ended up loving the Retina display much more than I expected to), but they're not the end-all be-all.
The build quality on MacBooks is well-known in the industry and, if you go to a Microsoft Store (or own one), it's readily visible that the build quality isn't on par. Don't get me wrong, it's really good, but it's not MacBook good. This isn't the greatest example because I don't own one, but look at this shot (https://si.wsj.net/public/resources/images/BN-QM003_MSFTst_P...) and compare even the fit and finish of the cutouts.
As for the specs, I don't know where you got that the point of the MBP is to be leap years ahead on specs and I'm pretty sure this is a straw man that you set up just to argue against it. Apple has never been about pushing specs but only the overall experience of using their machines. In fact, in a lot of benchmarks, Apple devices outperform similarly (or even better) spec'd PCs simply because of Apple's ecosystem advantage.
You're right that they're not the end-all be-all, but you should probably make sure you're being objective yourself before suggesting that someone else has had too much kool-aid.
Do you have any evidence regarding the fit and finish of the Surface Pro (which was what the original question was about) wrt Macbook Pros?
Again, not saying you're wrong, just the picture you linked doesn't say that.
Edit: changed Surface Book to Surface Pro
It may not even be a fair comparison since the Surface has to accommodate the screen going in either direction and the design plays a big part in the visual appeal for the Macbooks, but it just doesn't look as polished to me. Again, I think the only way to really see and feel the difference is to go to a Microsoft Store and check it out for yourself. If you're lucky enough to have an Apple Store and a Microsoft Store near each other, it'll be even more obvious, in my opinion.
I happen to live in the Bay Area, and there's a mall here where there are an Apple Store and a MS store literally opposite each other. I've fondled both laptops (MBP, Surface Book -- never was a big fan of the Surface Pro) and my impressions about the hardware were as follows:
1) The new MBP is really just that, the new MBP. The touch strip novelty factor wore off for me very quickly. The build quality is nice (to be expected of MBPs, surely) although I did feel like sometimes the screen didn't want to close all the way in. I think the fact that it only has USB-C ports is going to bug me, a lot.
2) I didn't really know what to expect for the Surface Book. I was pleasantly surprised by the hinge -- it's very solid. Weight distribution is a concern; the laptop is definitely top heavy due to its motherboard placement behind the screen. The screen latch is cool but I have concerns about longevity, although it felt /really/ solid. I tried to separate the screen without unlatching it and there was no give.
To my untrained eyes, I'd say the new MBP and the Surface Book are about on par, build quality wise. Admittedly I didn't take a good look at the port cutouts on the Surface Book to see if they line up.
WRT Surface Pro, I just don't feel like I'm the target audience. I type very quickly and very loudly, and I would probably break the type cover in short order. The touch pad is too small for me. For these reasons I never gave it a fair shake, so I don't have much to say about its build quality.
The post I replied to says:
"- Bump the specs. The whole point of the Pro is it is leap years ahead of everyone on processor, HD, and RAM."
I agree, but on the other hand, I'm yet to find something that requires the use of the touchscreen. So I don't use it. Unless I'm carrying it around like a tablet, in which case it's a great feature to have.
I'd have happily paid less for the same resolution but longer battery life (low power for driving the touch sensor and more for driving the display to a greater brightness to support the same display brightness).
I figure I should have put up with a lower resolution display tbh, which is sad.
What I really wanted was a non-touch FHD Developer Edition with Rose Gold, but c'est la vie. It's been one of my favorite laptops.
It's a, very natural, quarter inch movement of your thumb while your arm rests comfortably on the table. Not unlike having your hand on your coffee mug.
Conversely, scrolling up and down this text box using the trackpad is tiny, cramped, constrained motions of my finger on the touchpad.
If you never do prolonged reading on your devices, then yes, it's not a scenario for you specifically. But many people find it quite useful.
This is true if you are the only one using it. If people are standing around you or over your shoulder, and you are all interacting with the screen - then a touchable screen is more quickly usable than shuffling who-has-the-keyboard-mouse. Not saying you are wrong, but there are scenarios where a touch screen is the "best" of the available IO options.
Seriously though, I'd probably prefer a touchscreen and normal keyboard to the touch bar -- at least I'm already looking at the screen.
Now I'm used to it though and really appreciate the extra size. Granted, I use BetterTouchTool a lot with lots of custom gestures.
I don't think there is any hardware/software issues for the poor battery performance in latest MacBook Pro. The TouchBar uses AppleWatch CPU under the hood, and anything with a screen will suck up battery rather badly. They might be able to squeeze some more juice by software update. Its likely noticeable improvement will come with the refresh next year. The one thing Apple needs to do is the price. Many are pissed that they pay so much premium but get worst battery performance than last year model.
They actually have been doing this for the past few years—for instance, when you ask the OS for a timer, the timer you get will be ±10% of what you requested so that a bunch of timers can go off all at once. This way the CPU can sleep, wake up, take care of all of them, and then go back to sleep. (You can say 'no really it needs to be exactly this time', but most of the time you don't need that). Other things as well, but that's the one that's stuck in my brain.
The OS has done quite well to optimise battery I thought - App Nap has been great. If I reboot my MBP into Windows (so same hardware, different OS), I get worse battery life.
Agree with the ports - the Surface Pro I use at work has 1 USB port so plug in a wired mouse and you can't plug in your USB key. Despite the love of wifi, ports are a great way to keep your device useful.
I have the new MBP 13" (love it), but the one thing that annoys me slightly is the smudges on the edge of the screen from opening it, or adjusting the screen angle.
It's impossible not to get marks on the screen. As it is, they're in the thin bezel area and not on the actual screen. I'm not sure I'd want the screen to go all the way to the edge...
I wish Apple would use the same keys that they use on the new Magic Keyboard. Definitely less travel than outgoing MacBook Pros but still clicky and usable.
This! I can't even get to the other complaints myself because this one triggers my OCD almost immediately into the experience.
To be honest, I really found myself using the keyboard and touchpad the most on the Surface and when you think about it, the MacBook Pro has the best touch pad. I think Apple needs to do some minor things to get the MacBook Pro back on track:
- Fix the battery issue. They really need to fix that from a hardware perspective. Also, the OS needs to be optimized to preserve battery. The burden can't be fully on hardware.
- Put magsafe back or some sort of USB-C magsafe solution.
- Bump the specs. The whole point of the Pro is it is leap years ahead of everyone on processor, HD, and RAM.
- The keyboard is getting better, but I still think it needs more travel time.
- The screen could be further to the edges a bit for a more modern look.
- The ports. Look, I get it, you want to embrace the future but then please include free cables to help in the transition. A power extension cable was not even included in this MacBook pro release, that is just sad.