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Re:Freelance Isn't Free Act Passes in NYC by relics443 on Wednesday November 23, 2016 @04:45PM (#13026025)
My first freelance job was for a prestigious organization. They refused to pay, because (in their words) "no one will listen to you if you file anything anyways" and they had denied that I did the work.

I told them that they had 24 hours to pay me and acknowledge my work, or I'd put porn on their landing page. 24.5 hours later I got paid.

Re:Freelance Isn't Free Act Passes in NYC by crdb on Wednesday November 23, 2016 @07:12PM (#13026885)
After I had a similar issue, I decided to offer all clients a 10% discount for paying upfront, monthly. It has the added advantage of no notice period: if they are fed up with our work they can just stop paying and we stop doing any more work.

The amount of stress that has gone from my life was totally worth the 10% discount.

Re:Freelance Isn't Free Act Passes in NYC by brightball on Wednesday November 23, 2016 @10:16PM (#13027738)
After doing freelance for a while you learn to insist on an advance. The 10% discount is a great way to incentivize the process though.

Additionally, rush rates are critical. The first time I gave up a weekend with the kids for something a client "had to have by Monday" and then we monitored to see it wasn't even looked at for 3 weeks was the last. If something has to be done outside of your normal scheduling, charge a rush rate of double. When there is a cost higher than asking, it's shocking how much stuff isn't really needed by Monday.

Re:Freelance Isn't Free Act Passes in NYC by themodelplumber on Wednesday November 23, 2016 @10:39PM (#13027833)
Rush rates and their cousin, spectrum quotes. Good, better, and best tiers, with accompanying price and delivery time differences. This always helps me get a better read on the client. If they constantly choose the cheap and fast option, I know they are not going to be as profitable as other clients, so I know where to put my sales efforts in the future.
Re:Freelance Isn't Free Act Passes in NYC by dmichulke on Thursday November 24, 2016 @03:30AM (#13029051)
Can you tell me how spectrum quotes work?

All I found was "Inspirational Quotes about Spectrum" or some consulting companies with "spectrum" in their name.

Re:Freelance Isn't Free Act Passes in NYC by themodelplumber on Thursday November 24, 2016 @09:11AM (#13030375)
Oh, that's just what I call them. Pretty sure there's another term because the principle is used all over the place, not just in freelancing.

When the client asks for a quote, just try adding in one extra option from your usual. They want a WordPress site? Do some research on their business and offer, for example, one quote for a WordPress site, along with another quote for standard WordPress plus a custom mobile product library for their sales team to reference when pitching products.

The client then has a choice between two really nice alternatives. You thought through their needs and they'll notice that, too.

I've found that even if the client doesn't go for the extras, they'll usually say, "let's definitely talk about this when we work on our sales budget next month. I want the team to tell me what they want." Then at that time, when they give you some bullet points for desired features and ask questions about what's possible, you reply with e.g. three options, including one that is the base price you quoted originally and covers a reasonable amount of features but is just good, plus another price point that's better because it adds another really nice-to-have feature, and then the "best" price point, where every single one of their bullet points is covered and the thing is just really slick. For example, maybe it lets them edit the product prices and save them to different lists for each sales pitch.

The point here is that you are getting a sense for what is important to the client. If you don't have many clients, the bullet points you got from that sales team are gold because you now know much more about their needs and can pitch more while working on the project.

And finally, watch for scope changes and bill for them. There are guys with yachts that were paid for by scope changes, and in fact their businesses count on those changes in order to keep the client relationship in top shape. A scope change is easy money because the client is pitching you rather than the other way around.

Re:Freelance Isn't Free Act Passes in NYC by omouse on Thursday November 24, 2016 @03:55PM (#13032694)
Absolutely, I didn't learn this a few times because I expected the product I was freelancing on to be sold to multiple other clients meaning continued project work for me. But after a month and a half and using up some savings $$$ to pay the rent, I realized that just sticking to coding isn't enough and you have to really develop a sense of who will rip you off and who won't and insist on advanced payments or getting paid at the end of the day.

I remember reading about someone who would bill daily. If there were problems with $$ they just wouldn't work the next few days.

Re:Freelance Isn't Free Act Passes in NYC by syngrog66 on Wednesday November 23, 2016 @09:21PM (#13027510)
I've also found a good technique is to ask for the largest amount you can, upfront. Because if they agree to it, and do it, it signals several things to me, at once:

1. they have money; 2. they have enough money that this amount won't break them; 3. they have the ability, approval & mechanism for sending me money. 4. they also believe in me and truly value me and want me and (most likely) have no plan to get free work out of me without paying on the backend.

In general, the would-be clients who balk at that are either shady, or, have such small/unstable budgets that it's not the best use of my time to help them. Of course, is chance they just don't trust me. The problem is that I trust me, and I have only so many work hours in my life, and only one life to live, and I can't know for sure whether I'll ever get paid, or, how much, until and unless they truly do it. Proof is in the pudding.

If I had a nickel for every would-be client who wanted the world for $800 -- or balked at that because "all they have is X" where X is ludricrously small, well, I'd have a lot of nickels. Heck that's literally all you'll get from them. Assuming they don't stiff you totally.

The clients that do pay, and well, and upfront -- those are gold. Such gold I'd argue it's best to keep them secret. Very close to the vest. (If one is smart anyway.)

Re:Freelance Isn't Free Act Passes in NYC by kobeya on Wednesday November 23, 2016 @09:49PM (#13027624)
Raise your asking rate by 10%
Re:Freelance Isn't Free Act Passes in NYC by helloworld on Wednesday November 23, 2016 @10:40PM (#13027838)
Or maybe 11.111%, so you're back to where you started.
Re:Freelance Isn't Free Act Passes in NYC by 50CNT on Thursday November 24, 2016 @06:39PM (#13033490)
Maybe he meant 10 percentage points?
Re:Freelance Isn't Free Act Passes in NYC by drdeadringer on Thursday November 24, 2016 @12:43PM (#13031572)
A reputable lawyer I hired offers the same deal. If you paid up front, specifically in cash, 10% off precisely for the reasons you state.
Re:Freelance Isn't Free Act Passes in NYC by hkmurakami on Wednesday November 23, 2016 @05:07PM (#13026164)
It seems like no amount of prestige or status or good standing makes an organization (or perhaps, just the individuals) immune from such behavior.

A friend of mine, a freelance journalist, was never paid by the New York Times. Pretty much the last organization I would have expected to engage in such behavior.

Re:Freelance Isn't Free Act Passes in NYC by donohoe on Wednesday November 23, 2016 @05:11PM (#13026198)
As someone who knows a number of ppl that work/worked freelance at the Times, I find this hard to believe. Any extra details?
Re:Freelance Isn't Free Act Passes in NYC by leephillips on Wednesday November 23, 2016 @06:28PM (#13026656)
Same here. If you're implying that they ran his piece but never paid for it, I'm inclined to not believe this. The Times is very ethical organization. That said, as a freelance writer myself, I know that large companies can have ponderous invoicing systems, and it can take months for your first payment to make its way to you; after you're in their system, things run more smoothly.
Re:Freelance Isn't Free Act Passes in NYC by treehau5 on Wednesday November 23, 2016 @06:58PM (#13026820)
> The Times is very ethical organization.

Wikileaks tells us otherwise.

Re:Freelance Isn't Free Act Passes in NYC by donohoe on Thursday November 24, 2016 @08:33AM (#13030229)
No. Wikileaks show that reporters communicate by email.

It showed that reporters, as professional courtesy to sources and subjects, give a heads up when stories are running.

This is not new, and applied to Trump and past GOP presidential campaigns.

Re:Freelance Isn't Free Act Passes in NYC by treehau5 on Thursday November 24, 2016 @11:57AM (#13031274)
Oh, professional courtesy, that's what we call it now. A heads up is one thing, running the details of the narrative and making sure the two line up is another. It's the journalists job to determine what stories need to be told, not the campaign directors.
Re:Freelance Isn't Free Act Passes in NYC by untog on Wednesday November 23, 2016 @07:58PM (#13027071)
What - exactly - did the DNC leaks show in this regard? All I ever found anyone say is "oh they're in cahoots" without ever being able to point me to something specific.
Re:Freelance Isn't Free Act Passes in NYC by Jerry2 on Wednesday November 23, 2016 @09:17PM (#13027489)
Re:Freelance Isn't Free Act Passes in NYC by edblarney on Thursday November 24, 2016 @03:13AM (#13028985)
'Bias' even 'gross editorial bias' is a different thing that point-blank fraud.

I mean - we've come to expect media outlets to 'take sides'.

But non payment for services rendered is definitely criminal, and even though I don't like a lot of what the NYT does ... I would still assume they'd be the kind of org to actually pay people for their work. That's not a kind of ethical line we'd expect them to cross.

Re:Freelance Isn't Free Act Passes in NYC by humanrebar on Thursday November 24, 2016 @07:39AM (#13029989)
Undisclosed collaboration and planning with primary subjects of your journalism is point-blank fraud. It might not be criminal, but it's beyond dishonest and therefore very unethical.
Re:Freelance Isn't Free Act Passes in NYC by eli_gottlieb on Thursday November 24, 2016 @12:11PM (#13031352)
Wasn't it the Washington Post that was trying to run Bernie into the ground?
Re:Freelance Isn't Free Act Passes in NYC by SilasX on Wednesday November 23, 2016 @08:14PM (#13027138)
It was something of a pain to get the URL with googles AMP, but I found this, which showed journalists crossing boundaries and getting too friendly with DNC insiders:

http://dailycaller.com/2016/10/11/hills-shills-leaks-have-ex...

Re:Freelance Isn't Free Act Passes in NYC by untog on Wednesday November 23, 2016 @08:36PM (#13027281)
That seems to describe an NYT journalist emailing members of the Hillary team and talking about their candidate in positive terms.

Maybe I don't expect enough of journalists, but I'm not really seeing the scandal there. Buttering up a source by talking positively about their candidate seems... sensible?

Re:Freelance Isn't Free Act Passes in NYC by SilasX on Wednesday November 23, 2016 @09:09PM (#13027466)
Fair enough. If this is limited to that kind of flattery (and I haven't read enough to verify either way) then we can write that off as good ol-fashioned "working a source" and not particularly worrisome.
Re:Freelance Isn't Free Act Passes in NYC by treehau5 on Wednesday November 23, 2016 @08:39PM (#13027302)
(I can't reply to untog since it is too deep in the thread but this in reply to their comment)

When you are professedly a journalist, you are to report the facts unbiased, not get friendly and in bed with campaign insiders, running your pieces by them to get their opinion. There are many more heinous emails than the ones linked by parent, specifically some that are exchanges making sure the narrative that was going to be published "sounded good" to the Hillary camp.

That's not journalism. It's propaganda.

My own observation: the fact that we have to get apologetic about this behavior further proves the point.

Re:Freelance Isn't Free Act Passes in NYC by fdgdasfadsf on Thursday November 24, 2016 @01:35AM (#13028636)
Just click on the post you want to reply to's time next time...
Re:Freelance Isn't Free Act Passes in NYC by morgante on Wednesday November 23, 2016 @10:20PM (#13027750)
I find it interesting that none of the responses to your question link to direct primary sources. They're all third-hand accounts of how "they're in cahoots."
Re:Freelance Isn't Free Act Passes in NYC by late2part on Thursday November 24, 2016 @09:02AM (#13030341)
Get off your perch, man.

What is interesting is that you chose to make a false criticism of the post, and not investigate the myriad links supporting his assertion.

Whether it's pedantically true is open for discussion, but it's certainly supported with more than hearsay as you suggest.

In the first [1] link, the article calls out a fact based comparison of a title change with links to the source:

First, The New York Times changed the article’s headline, from: “Bernie Sanders Scored Victories for Years Via Legislative Side Doors,” to: Via Legislative Side Doors, Bernie Sanders Won Modest Victories.” The article also added two paragraphs criticizing Sanders, portraying him as unrealistic, a commonly-used Clinton campaign argument—especially as Sanders continues to be much more progressive than Clinton on a number of important issues.

Also in [1]:

In the latest WikiLeaks release of Clinton campaign chair John Podesta’s emails, several Times journalists are implicated in abandoning any semblance of objectivity to fulfill the agenda of the Clinton campaign. In July 2015, correspondent Mark Leibovich emailed the Clinton campaign a transcript of an interview he conducted with Clinton for them to proofread and edit as they saw fit.

Which includes links to the actual emails, as well as a discussion of how the NYT is owned by Slim who donates a lot to the Clinton Foundation:

The New York Times’ majority shareholder, billionaire Carlos Slim, has donated between one and five million dollars to the Clinton Foundation. The Times’ staff, especially on politics, may not be directly influenced by their wealthy owners, but the hiring practices and editorial board’s decisions reflect the desire to maintain, preserve, and perpetuate the status quo—not issue challenges to this establishment.

In the next article [2] Mr. Starkweather provides sources showing that the NYT modified their coverage of HRC based on the request of the campaign:

The New York Times political correspondent made the omissions at the request of Hillary Clinton’s campaign lawyer, Marc E. Elias, and DNC officials. The emails, published by Wikileaks, also appear to show that Confessore made other edits to the article at the request of former DNC Chairwoman Debbie Wasserman-Shultz.

The provided information directly links to source material, esp. wrt Wikileaks, and your accusation is baseless.

[1] http://observer.com/2016/10/wikileaks-new-york-times-propped... [2] https://medium.com/@Starkweather/new-york-times-edited-berni...

Re:Freelance Isn't Free Act Passes in NYC by tomohawk on Thursday November 24, 2016 @08:11AM (#13030126)
Re:Freelance Isn't Free Act Passes in NYC by swang on Wednesday November 23, 2016 @07:50PM (#13027032)
Who watches the wikileaks?
Re:Freelance Isn't Free Act Passes in NYC by erichocean on Thursday November 24, 2016 @01:44AM (#13028668)
Since Wikileaks is publishing other people's private information—as opposed to "news" or "journalism"—the only thing to "watch" is if what they are publishing has been altered or not (or was made up out of whole cloth).

To the best of my knowledge, there are no known instance of Wikileaks publishing fraudulent or altered information.

Re:Freelance Isn't Free Act Passes in NYC by eivarv on Thursday November 24, 2016 @05:55AM (#13029650)
Outright lies isn't the only danger, though.

What they hold back, what they publish and when they publish it can potentially be abused - for instance to present or enhance one narrative, and obscure another.

And Wikileaks itself could be used as a tool by other actors ( e.g. for political gain) via strategic leaks or somesuch…

Re:Freelance Isn't Free Act Passes in NYC by phereford on Thursday November 24, 2016 @12:07PM (#13031332)
While Wikileaks may not alter any of the information they are given, it is plausible that their sources have the ability to alter documents before sending to Wikileaks.

The only newsworthy item I have seen was this: http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSKBN12Y2WY

Of course nothing has come of this speculation, so it may end up being nothing.

My last $.02, given the sensitive nature of some of the information that Wikileaks releases, there is probably no avenue for corroborating the materials other than, maybe, how the source received said materials.

Re:Freelance Isn't Free Act Passes in NYC by jk563 on Thursday November 24, 2016 @03:47AM (#13029111)
It would be suicide for them to do that.

Not ruling it out, but if they get caught one time it calls into question everything they've ever released.

Re:Freelance Isn't Free Act Passes in NYC by hueving on Wednesday November 23, 2016 @05:46PM (#13026409)
It's common for papers to refuse work if it doesn't meet specifications for having enough facts to back up statements, having clear political biases, etc.
Re:Freelance Isn't Free Act Passes in NYC by to3m on Wednesday November 23, 2016 @06:05PM (#13026512)
Hello. I'm part of the secretive cabal of leftists that push the mainstream liberal agenda. I downvoted you because it is our mission to silence conservative-friendly voices wherever we see them.

We pay particular attention in forums such as this one, where bringing politics into random discussions is encouraged and welcomed.

Re:Freelance Isn't Free Act Passes in NYC by to3m on Wednesday November 23, 2016 @10:13PM (#13027719)
Parent comment has been updated, but it's too late to edit mine, turning my mildly amusing mockery into an unhinged-sounding non sequitur. Well, this is what happens when you take the low road...
Re:Freelance Isn't Free Act Passes in NYC by megablast on Wednesday November 23, 2016 @06:17PM (#13026588)
I've got a good idea, lets put a left/right spin on every post, for no reason at all, and only when it has nothing to do with the discussion.

And when we are inevitably voted down, lets pretend it is a big conspiracy.

Re:Freelance Isn't Free Act Passes in NYC by yabatopia on Wednesday November 23, 2016 @07:00PM (#13026827)
To make it even more obvious, we can left align the left/liberal posts, and right align the right/conservative news. Add a fun twist. In the middle, on the bottom of the screen there's you, Space Invaders style. You have to shoot your way through left- and right-aligned posts, until you get killed by the left or the right.
Re:Freelance Isn't Free Act Passes in NYC by RhysU on Wednesday November 23, 2016 @08:20PM (#13027171)
Please someone make this.
Re:Freelance Isn't Free Act Passes in NYC by mordechai9000 on Wednesday November 23, 2016 @10:27PM (#13027785)
The hard part would be classifying the posts, the rest would be trivial. What would be a good approach?
Re:Freelance Isn't Free Act Passes in NYC by grzm on Wednesday November 23, 2016 @06:20PM (#13026612)
Please don't fan the flames when someone unnecessarily injects partisan politics.
Re:Freelance Isn't Free Act Passes in NYC by grzm on Wednesday November 23, 2016 @06:15PM (#13026573)
Please don't inject partisan politics unnecessarily.

Edit: parent comment was updated to remove partisanship. Thanks!

Re:Freelance Isn't Free Act Passes in NYC by abandonliberty on Wednesday November 23, 2016 @05:35PM (#13026349)
I know of an organization that refuses to pay any of their contractors. It is currently facing several lawsuits.

You'd think word would get around, but they've been doing it for years.

They grind every single contractor for every cent and come out far ahead. Very combative way to live.

Re:Freelance Isn't Free Act Passes in NYC by vadym909 on Wednesday November 23, 2016 @06:11PM (#13026545)
<You'd think word would get around, but they've been doing it for years.> If you aren't naming the organization yourself, why would you be surprised word hasn't gotten around.
Re:Freelance Isn't Free Act Passes in NYC by abandonliberty on Thursday November 24, 2016 @01:32AM (#13028623)
You're right. Thanks for making me consider that.

Unfortunately, as I am not supposed to know, there could be both legal and social impacts to people I care about if I divulged such information.

There are other people in much better positions to do something about it.

Your question forced me to understand this.

Does some sort of repository for bad clients & companies exist? Could it? This isn't exactly what Yelp and BBB is for.

Re:Freelance Isn't Free Act Passes in NYC by tinix on Thursday November 24, 2016 @02:36AM (#13028868)
I bought a bunch of domains a while ago, to build something like this, and split-test the names, but haven't put any effort into it yet. Is there legit interest? It would have to be strictly third party generated content, otherwise it could be taken down due to various legal reasons... I think I would need to hire an attorney anyway.

I'll probably let all the domains expire, except for "shit.business", that one is gold.

Re:Freelance Isn't Free Act Passes in NYC by abandonliberty on Thursday November 24, 2016 @10:31AM (#13030790)
Sorry, my messages may be delayed due to work and my noprocrast setting (20 minutes every 3 hours).

Have you researched what currently exists? On a cursory search nothing came up for me. Must consider legal challenges and lack of demand as possible causes.

The bad actors in the system will fight anything that would negatively impact them. Would need more aggregate support from good actors in total to make it viable.

Re:Freelance Isn't Free Act Passes in NYC by tinix on Monday November 28, 2016 @01:42AM (#13053835)
Exactly...

What about some kind of info protocol so there's no single head to chop off. Maybe it piggybacks the bitcoin blockchain for verification, and uses ipfs.

Lack of community though... is hard to combat. It's also a chicken-egg problem. Build it and they will come? :)

Re:Freelance Isn't Free Act Passes in NYC by jameskegel on Thursday November 24, 2016 @01:57AM (#13028706)
I am skeptical of your claims, and your deflection technique doesn't add credibility.
Re:Freelance Isn't Free Act Passes in NYC by raverbashing on Thursday November 24, 2016 @10:47AM (#13030879)
Give a hint of the company then
Re:Freelance Isn't Free Act Passes in NYC by ksenzee on Wednesday November 23, 2016 @07:15PM (#13026895)
I also know of such an organization. David Fahrenthold did some good reporting on it in the last several months. The bad press doesn't seem to have done it any harm.
Re:Freelance Isn't Free Act Passes in NYC by cookiecaper on Wednesday November 23, 2016 @05:41PM (#13026381)
Until those lawsuits go through, anyway...
Re:Freelance Isn't Free Act Passes in NYC by infinite8s on Thursday November 24, 2016 @06:45AM (#13029819)
They'll likely be settled and come with a non disparagement clause.
Re:Freelance Isn't Free Act Passes in NYC by neospice on Wednesday November 23, 2016 @11:35PM (#13028127)
Any tips for dealing with these types? They can usually be quite persuasive and pushy - stress-inducing.
Re:Freelance Isn't Free Act Passes in NYC by ihaveajob on Wednesday November 23, 2016 @05:58PM (#13026481)
My first programming gig was reverse engineering a file format for my dad's school (he was a chemistry teacher doubling up as school admin). The person previously in charge of that position had installed a time bomb that he kept pushing back as long as he still had the job. Total office politics. Luckily the file format was in plain text and all I had to do was interpret some odd fields asking around. I was never paid (it was a favor), but it felt so good to know that this other person knew it was me who did it.
Re:Freelance Isn't Free Act Passes in NYC by Normal_gaussian on Wednesday November 23, 2016 @06:29PM (#13026666)
Did they take the guy to court? Or did they give up once they disarmed him?
Re:Freelance Isn't Free Act Passes in NYC by wavefunction on Wednesday November 23, 2016 @09:06PM (#13027453)
a time bomb in plain text? hmm
Re:Freelance Isn't Free Act Passes in NYC by ihaveajob on Tuesday December 06, 2016 @12:03PM (#13116166)
The file format that the app used was in plain text. I never saw the software in action, and I have no idea how the time bomb was implemented, but there was a way to enter a code and reactivate it.
Re:Freelance Isn't Free Act Passes in NYC by welly on Wednesday November 23, 2016 @10:21PM (#13027756)
A client I did some work a while ago for didn't so much refuse to pay but just didn't pay. Excuses, ignoring emails/calls etc. After about 7 months of this going on, I told them that they had 5 days to pay otherwise the only copy of the site I'd built for them was going to be deleted and I'd just accept the loss.

The website wasn't actually live at this point but obviously they wanted it live because they paid up fairly promptly.

Re:Freelance Isn't Free Act Passes in NYC by JoshTriplett on Wednesday November 23, 2016 @04:58PM (#13026110)
Funny, but at the same time, that could also get you sued (or potentially even prosecuted), and nobody would have much sympathy for you.
Re:Freelance Isn't Free Act Passes in NYC by mgkimsal on Wednesday November 23, 2016 @05:10PM (#13026182)
I'd have loads of sympathy for the OP. As would thousands of others.
Re:Freelance Isn't Free Act Passes in NYC by 77pt77 on Wednesday November 23, 2016 @05:26PM (#13026285)
How many people in a jury do you think would share your feelings?
Re:Freelance Isn't Free Act Passes in NYC by khedoros1 on Wednesday November 23, 2016 @05:38PM (#13026361)
Depends on which "prestigious organization" it was and how convincingly the defense lawyer could frame it as a David vs Goliath situation, rather than straight-up blackmail.
Re:Freelance Isn't Free Act Passes in NYC by devoply on Wednesday November 23, 2016 @08:07PM (#13027110)
When you do business, understand money makes everyone into a sociopath. So you are dealing with a sociopath. A sociopath that has the law on his or her side. Remember this well. Don't trust sociopaths, and don't trust anyone that you do business with to hold up their end of the deal if they can get away with it. Start with this and you'll limit your exposure. They will still screw you now and then, but you limit the amount of damage they can do to you.
Re:Freelance Isn't Free Act Passes in NYC by EduardoBautista on Wednesday November 23, 2016 @05:33PM (#13026326)
Seeing how people rarely view businesses as the "good guy", it is likely that many people would.
Re:Freelance Isn't Free Act Passes in NYC by fucking_tragedy on Wednesday November 23, 2016 @06:19PM (#13026598)
I don't know. Corporations have been able to paint individuals as leeches trying to take advantage of businesses pretty successfully with their frivolous lawsuits are ruining America narrative. For example, the McDonald's coffee case involved an elderly woman with 3rd degree burns inflicted on her genitalia. I can't think of a more sympathetic victim, yet her case is the poster child for supposed frivolous lawsuits hurting businesses.
Re:Freelance Isn't Free Act Passes in NYC by leephillips on Wednesday November 23, 2016 @06:32PM (#13026679)
Even if the coffee were at the boiling temperature, how could it have caused 3rd degree burns?
Re:Freelance Isn't Free Act Passes in NYC by DanBC on Wednesday November 23, 2016 @06:45PM (#13026744)
"3rd degree" just means full thickness burns. She was an older woman, thus had thinner skin; the spill was onto clothing; the spill was into a seat where she had limited mobility.

But ignoring all of that: hot water is dangerous and can cause full thickness burns in seconds.

http://www.accuratebuilding.com/services/legal/charts/hot_wa...

At 60 C you'd have full thickness burns in 5 seconds.

Re:Freelance Isn't Free Act Passes in NYC by leephillips on Wednesday November 23, 2016 @08:56PM (#13027402)
Thanks for the explanation. I had some misconceptions about this stuff, clearly.
Re:Freelance Isn't Free Act Passes in NYC by nommm-nommm on Wednesday November 23, 2016 @10:40PM (#13027839)
Spill an entire cup of boiling water in your lap while sitting in the passengers seat of a car while wearing cotton sweatpants and find out.

Don't actually do this, you'll likely end up with serious disfiguring injuries such as:

>Liebeck was taken to the hospital, where it was determined that she had suffered third-degree burns on six percent of her skin and lesser burns over sixteen percent.[11] She remained in the hospital for eight days while she underwent skin grafting. During this period, Liebeck lost 20 pounds (9 kg, nearly 20% of her body weight), reducing her to 83 pounds (38 kg). After the hospital stay, Liebeck needed care for 3 weeks, provided by her daughter.[12] Liebeck suffered permanent disfigurement after the incident and was partially disabled for two years.[13][14]

Basically very hot water is dangerous and it's much easier to get a serious injury from it than you'd think.

Re:Freelance Isn't Free Act Passes in NYC by Mz on Wednesday November 23, 2016 @06:47PM (#13026752)
This has graphic photos of the victim's wounds (they are quite unpleasant): https://www.quora.com/How-did-McDonalds-lose-the-hot-coffee-...

As someone who used to process accident claims for a large insurance company, I will suggest that if you spill hot water in your lap in a public place, you are probably not going to whip the clothing off right then and there to protect yourself from the burns. She is also elderly and elderly people have slower reflexes and can be more vulnerable to all kinds of health issues.

Re:Freelance Isn't Free Act Passes in NYC by bertiewhykovich on Wednesday November 23, 2016 @06:47PM (#13026750)
Re:Freelance Isn't Free Act Passes in NYC by flycaliguy on Thursday November 24, 2016 @01:07AM (#13028529)
If you haven't seen the documentary Hot Coffee, I highly recommend it. Very interesting look at that case.
Re:Freelance Isn't Free Act Passes in NYC by mgkimsal on Wednesday November 23, 2016 @10:24PM (#13027770)
a "jury of their peers" would likely include a fair # of self-employed folks who've been shafted on payments, so... I'd say a lot.
Re:Freelance Isn't Free Act Passes in NYC by infinite8s on Thursday November 24, 2016 @07:40AM (#13029997)
That's not how they select peers.
Re:Freelance Isn't Free Act Passes in NYC by gremlinsinc on Wednesday November 23, 2016 @05:18PM (#13026244)
yeah porn is bad... instead have a php file that simply has unlink('public_html'); when called. That'd show them... The only way to sometimes ensure payment is make sure that the product isn't delivered until paid.. -- or just use a staging server and be like this could be yours if the money hits my bank account.
Re:Freelance Isn't Free Act Passes in NYC by relics443 on Wednesday November 23, 2016 @05:00PM (#13026118)
I was worried about that, but I just couldn't resist. Besides, they were the type of organization that wouldn't have wanted that to get out.
Re:Freelance Isn't Free Act Passes in NYC by outworlder on Wednesday November 23, 2016 @05:38PM (#13026366)
Even more troubling if you think that, since "he didn't perform the work", then he could only have gotten to the server by nefarious means. Hence, hacking charges...
Re:Freelance Isn't Free Act Passes in NYC by relics443 on Wednesday November 23, 2016 @05:46PM (#13026406)
I was thinking they'd have to prove that, and it makes it look that more likely that I actually did work for them (because I had access).
Re:Freelance Isn't Free Act Passes in NYC by Bluestrike2 on Wednesday November 23, 2016 @06:17PM (#13026590)
Access isn't necessarily the same as authorization. After all, any hacker who successfully penetrates a system technically has access to it at that point. Their argument would be that you exceeded your authorization by deleting files or a website, defacing it with porn or a "Widgets Inc. Doesn't Pay Its Bills" notice, scrubbing a Git repo, or whatever other poison pill you implemented to force payment.

And they'd likely win with that argument under the CFAA. Even if they just handed you login credentials, they did so in the context of you fulfilling a specific task. From a technical perspective, those credentials might give you root access that lets you do anything. From a legal perspective, that's not the same as giving you authorization to do anything. For the CFAA, this would likely constitute "exceed[ing] authorized access." Not to mention that taking down a site (or just defacing it) is, on its face, clearly against a client's interests.

In any case, you're using the threat of damage to force payment. Even if the client owes you a valid debt, those threats can likely be considered extortion. The sort of jerks who will gleefully screw over a freelancer because, as they so kindly informed you, "no one will listen to you" are often the sort who have no problems with screwing you another way.

Re:Freelance Isn't Free Act Passes in NYC by gremlinsinc on Wednesday November 23, 2016 @05:16PM (#13026230)
I always thought about putting some sort of backdoor like where a get request triggers deletion of all files or something -- in case of non-payment.. Then I'd charge like a $500 fee to clone everything back from my github repo to their server lol... Haven't ever done anything like that--but thought about doing it.
Re:Freelance Isn't Free Act Passes in NYC by MrFoof on Wednesday November 23, 2016 @05:54PM (#13026458)
You could do that.

Or if you do work as a freelance contractor, you can pay a business lawyer 4 to 6 hours of their time to draft up a services agreement that you will use as a template for every client going forward.

Client doesn't pay me (after some nudges that they should)? Well according to the services agreement there was no IP transfer, because I wasn't paid. They continue to use the IP? Well the contract they signed says I can sue the hell out of them (and win) as recourse. Client wants something changed after delivery and payment? I'm not obligated to do squat, as the service agreement says that since they signed off on the delivery receipt, they supposedly were fine with it. The services agreement makes sure I get paid, the client doesn't try to put me over a barrel, and makes sure I'm making good by my client. That's what you have them.

Seriously. Always have a contract.

Re:Freelance Isn't Free Act Passes in NYC by wernercd on Wednesday November 23, 2016 @09:49PM (#13027628)
Re:Freelance Isn't Free Act Passes in NYC by littlethrowaway on Thursday November 24, 2016 @05:06AM (#13029444)
I have just started working as a freelancer / contractor. It's a pretty nice deal working for a client whom I used to work for when I was in a consultancy.

Anyway, while I'm sure you-are-not-a-lawyer, if you have any advice regarding what to put in a contract I'd be keen to hear it.

The bit I'm most concerned about is the fact that it's a pretty legacy codebase, and there are almost certainly vulnerabilities I'm not aware of. At the moment I have a loosely worded (and accepted) email where I basically say "you put everything into production once you've tested it, as it's a legacy system without decent test coverage". However, I'm paranoid I'll make a mistake / it'll get hacked and then I'll get sued. Admittedly I live in a different country from the client & I am doing things through an LLC so perhaps its safe enough.

Still, if you have any advice/pointers from the trenches, I'd be keen to hear it. I honestly don't care too much about loosing a months salary, so much as loosing the shirt off my back!

Re:Freelance Isn't Free Act Passes in NYC by edblarney on Thursday November 24, 2016 @03:20AM (#13029013)
Agreed with 'have a contract' and I see your point.

But I would never ever hire a contractor on such terms.

Never.

No company in their right mind would put their IP at risk due to some fuzzy contractual language - and it's always fuzzy, subject to interpretation.

The contract could conceivably be 'interpreted' as 'all the companies IP' and all it takes is an angry contractor who is pissed and thinks he can make zillions $ to make your life hell.

Personally - I've only had good experiences, but I take a different approach. I just withold milestone delivery until I get paid, until I sense the credibility of the institution.

There have been a few comments such as 'I will take down your site if you don't pay' etc. - this is a reflection of the power that the contractor has, and it implies something more than legal leverage, really.

Also - the moment I whiffed there was going to be a 'non payment scenario' - I'm out.

If you're getting paid often enough, at least your losses are limited.

Re:Freelance Isn't Free Act Passes in NYC by camkego on Thursday November 24, 2016 @05:18AM (#13029499)
So let me see if I have this straight, your agreement assigns the IP rights from the get-go, but you don't actually deliver the IP until each milestone is paid? Seems so simple that it seems to good to be true.
Re:Freelance Isn't Free Act Passes in NYC by edblarney on Thursday November 24, 2016 @05:43AM (#13029594)
Essentially yes. Any smart employer will make sure that 'whatever you do belongs to us' from a contractual perspective. That's going to be important to them, and it's common. I wouldn't even suggest otherwise.

But usually I send in an invoice as the first milestone is done (usually there is enough conversation/back-forth for them to know the milestone effectively done - or like a web-demo or something), and softly hint that I'll send in the deliverable (i.e. code and assets) when it's paid.

There's no way a company can take you to task for code what you have written, wherein you have not been paid. Even if they did - it would be a long, expensive process and would be a huge distraction from whatever it is they are trying to do. The pragmatic reality of 'you get the milestone for payment' trumps any kind of legal contextually - if they want to move forward they need to pay, it speaks right to the operational reality of their bottom line.

But lucky enough, I've never had a problem.

Re:Freelance Isn't Free Act Passes in NYC by vidarh on Friday November 25, 2016 @06:48PM (#13040772)
Without a contract, said companys IP is at risk because of an even fuzzier agreement that is not clearly documented.

If a company is worried that the terms of an actual stated, signed contract are too fuzzy, they should be far more worried about not having one.

Re:Freelance Isn't Free Act Passes in NYC by codedokode on Wednesday November 23, 2016 @07:49PM (#13027028)
Signing a contract usually means additional delay (one cannot sign a contract electronically, or am I wrong here?) and a client might choose another freelancer.
Re:Freelance Isn't Free Act Passes in NYC by freddyc on Wednesday November 23, 2016 @08:20PM (#13027169)
> one cannot sign a contract electronically

This obviously varies by jurisdiction, but if you're US based you can absolutely sign electronically (there's an entire Act that enables it). The easiest way is to use services like Echosign or Docusign which most people are pretty familiar with these days.

Re:Freelance Isn't Free Act Passes in NYC by BHSPitMonkey on Thursday November 24, 2016 @01:24AM (#13028593)
Or HelloSign :)
Re:Freelance Isn't Free Act Passes in NYC by BjoernKW on Thursday November 24, 2016 @03:25AM (#13029027)
I wouldn't want to work for a client who chooses freelancers by how easily they can be exploited. Having a perfectly reasonable contract is no reason for an ethically run business to not work with you.
Re:Freelance Isn't Free Act Passes in NYC by shostack on Wednesday November 23, 2016 @07:55PM (#13027055)
While there can be legitimate reasons to not move forward based on some contract terms, either way if there is a deal breaker that probably isn't a great fit anyway.
Re:Freelance Isn't Free Act Passes in NYC by thesagan on Wednesday November 23, 2016 @09:25PM (#13027526)
I sent those types on to try other contractors. Not worth it for me to repeat my own [unpaid] history.
Re:Freelance Isn't Free Act Passes in NYC by Mz on Wednesday November 23, 2016 @07:50PM (#13027033)
People can sign contracts electronically.
Re:Freelance Isn't Free Act Passes in NYC by nommm-nommm on Wednesday November 23, 2016 @10:48PM (#13027872)
Why not? I e-signed mortgage paperwork.
Re:Freelance Isn't Free Act Passes in NYC by Bluestrike2 on Wednesday November 23, 2016 @05:50PM (#13026429)
Emotionally gratifying, but poison pills or deleting a site/repo is just a fast way to a lawsuit or a complaint with the local district attorney if they're feeling vindictive. It wouldn't take much to argue that such actions fall under the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act or various state equivalents, for instance.

You're always better off having your attorney send a letter threatening legal action for nonpayment and breach of contract rather than trying to force them through those sorts of methods. The client might be willing to screw over a solo freelancer because there's limited risk to them; worst case, they pay up after all and you go away. But if their other suppliers hear about such actions, there's always the possibility that those suppliers might change their payment terms in response to the perceived risk of bad behavior on the part of the client. Those changes could cause a lot of problems with cashflow operations, and most companies will go out of their way to avoid that sort of reputation loss.

Re:Freelance Isn't Free Act Passes in NYC by xiaoma on Wednesday November 23, 2016 @05:59PM (#13026485)
I agree with your overall point, however...

"You're always better off having your attorney send a letter..."

If you think most freelancers have an attorney to send letters on their behalf, you have only seen a very small, very privileged minority of freelancers. Many don't even have health insurance, let alone an attorney to help with non-paying clients.

Re:Freelance Isn't Free Act Passes in NYC by MrFoof on Wednesday November 23, 2016 @06:08PM (#13026528)
Please watch this: Fuck You, Pay Me: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jVkLVRt6c1U

The $1250 I spent once to have a business attorney draft up a template for my services agreement is the best $1250 I ever spent in the past 7 years. That $1250 makes me money, because I never have to harass clients to get paid, because they know I have legal recourse if they don't.

Since then I've maybe paid him $1000 to deal with things clients wanted to redline in my service agreement.

That $2250 total (which is a legitimate business expense) is a pittance compared to what I would lose for a single unpaid invoice.

Meanwhile, I always hear from freelancers that don't get paid, but claim lawyers are "too expensive". You know what's really expensive? Getting $0 for the last N days you worked instead of $X. $X is a hell of a lot more money, and unless you have a contract in place, you expose yourself to that possibility every time you engage with a client.

Re:Freelance Isn't Free Act Passes in NYC by xiaoma on Thursday November 24, 2016 @03:00AM (#13028948)
I've already seen that video. What does it have to do with the fact that many, many freelancers don't have $1250 to spend?

Good for you. It's great that $2250 is a pittance compared to a single invoice you send. You sound like you're easily in the top 10% of the US in terms of your income. That's commendable. You were probably in fine shape without this law, but by any ethical measure the law still needs to protect those who can't afford to have lawyers send letters to their clients. Starting from the base assumption that everyone in a fluid economy has four figures to put down on legal when they first start freelancing in a new field just isn't a reasonable assumption... especially when the 41% of US adults have less than $500 in personal savings and millennials are also crushed by student debt.

Re:Freelance Isn't Free Act Passes in NYC by dozzie on Thursday November 24, 2016 @05:02AM (#13029429)
> What does ["Fuck You, Pay Me" talk] have to do with the fact that many, many freelancers don't have $1250 to spend?

Then they are not in a position to conduct freelancing and they risk starving and/or getting homeless.

A freelancer usually cannot assume stable 40 hours per week for four weeks per month. He/she has to have a money buffer that allows to live for weeks without additional income. $1250 is not an expense too big to be covered by this buffer.

Re:Freelance Isn't Free Act Passes in NYC by xiaoma on Thursday November 24, 2016 @10:00AM (#13030622)
As you may or may not be aware, decreasing rates of labor participation in the US have pushed many who cannot secure full-time work to seek freelancing gigs in order to avoid starving and/or homelessness.

Saying "they are not in a position to conduct freelancing" doesn't make the problem go away. If it did, US construction, fruit picking, home cleaning and other manual labor industries could be reorganized with a single utterance.

Re:Freelance Isn't Free Act Passes in NYC by dozzie on Thursday November 24, 2016 @10:45AM (#13030867)
Apparently you talk about a thing different from what everybody else in this thread call a "freelancer".
Re:Freelance Isn't Free Act Passes in NYC by xiaoma on Friday November 25, 2016 @05:59AM (#13035834)
If you read the article, you'll see there are 55 million Americans freelancing. Surely you don't think all of those people are highly paid designers or engineers like those visiting Rackspace in the video! Yes, a few fit that demographic, but it's a small group.

On the whole, freelancers are more likely to be drivers or home cleaners than tech workers.

Re:Freelance Isn't Free Act Passes in NYC by codedokode on Wednesday November 23, 2016 @07:55PM (#13027056)
Would not it be cheaper to find a sample agreement on the Internet? While it might have some faults it is still a legal document that might be used to scare the client.
Re:Freelance Isn't Free Act Passes in NYC by MrFoof on Wednesday November 23, 2016 @08:17PM (#13027152)
First, you're not looking to scare a client, you're looking to clearly define the terms of the engagement. If you were hiring your client, dollars to donuts they would be giving you a contract of their terms to sign.

Second, a business attorney is not doing a custom one-off for you. When you call around, you should be asking if they often work with freelance technology consultants -- that's who you want to hire, someone who is familiar with what your needs are, and what's reasonable to ask of a client. They have a baseline template that they've developed that will serve as the framework for what will be modified for your specific needs. They've likely had cases where the business relationship between the consultant and a client went south, so based on that experience (and well known cases, etc.) they're going to ensure that you -- and your client, as contracts are a two-way street -- are sufficiently protected if things were to go awry.

Here's how it worked for me on my initial (free) consultation with the attorney I ended up choosing. I showed up for the appointment. He asked about minutiae of the work I do (since a lot of his clients are freelance contractors that work in tech). He asked if there was anything that was important to me. He then gave me the template (that he developed) that he starts with as a baseline when creating a service agreement. He went over why some terms were there, and why they were worded as such. We talked about what we would add to meet my needs, we talked about what I'd like to modify (too constraining for clients, unnecessary terms, etc.). We shot the breeze for a few minutes, and that was it.

Three days later I get a draft in my inbox. We had a quick phone call, made a few tweaks because I felt a few things would never apply to my company, and that was that. The result is a straightforward six-page document that a sixth grader could understand -- something that my clients really appreciate, because their legal dept. looks it over and finds it completely reasonable.

Re:Freelance Isn't Free Act Passes in NYC by codedokode on Friday November 25, 2016 @07:05AM (#13036118)
Thank you for a detailed explanation, it is very useful.
Re:Freelance Isn't Free Act Passes in NYC by zrail on Wednesday November 23, 2016 @08:07PM (#13027112)
A template is a good way to cut down on how much time your attorney spends drafting your services agreement but it in no way substitutes for legal review. "Scaring the client" is not the game. Securing a higher class of client is the game. Having a defensible contract that you know forward and back, along with an attorney to consult if the client breaches it, is the goal.
Re:Freelance Isn't Free Act Passes in NYC by Bluestrike2 on Wednesday November 23, 2016 @06:29PM (#13026668)
I don't disagree. But a demand letter is fairly simple: it lays out a short, non-emotional overview of the situation, notes the specific resolution demanded, and specifies the alternative should they not take action. You can write a demand letter yourself, and there are literally countless examples for payment disputes available with a quick search.

You can write the letter yourself, and have an attorney review it and send it out from their office. Even a long letter won't take more than an hour's worth of work for the attorney (probably a lot less than that, to be honest), and a local solo practitioner is more than capable of handling it for very little money and without a retainer agreement.

Most of the time, just receiving a demand letter over something as simple as payment for services rendered is going to be enough to get them to pay you. And if there's a particular person at the company withholding payment (i.e., maybe it's some mid-level executive who was told to handle a project), a demand letter will wind up being sent straight to their legal department, counsel, or someone else such matters are assigned to. The letter, in effect, can often serve to bypass the logjam.

Re:Freelance Isn't Free Act Passes in NYC by josho on Wednesday November 23, 2016 @08:50PM (#13027364)
ask friends / family, often you are connected to a lawyer closer than you thought.

If you still don't have a free/cheap resource then start CCing your lawyer on emails. Eg. 'I am writing to provide notice that you are now 60 days overdue on invoice X (attached). As you have refused to pay the invoice under the terms of our contract (attached). I am copying my lawyer on this email to bring this matter to their attention.

Edit: and also make sure your contract spells out what happens for nonpayment.

Re:Freelance Isn't Free Act Passes in NYC by dismantlethesun on Wednesday November 23, 2016 @06:08PM (#13026527)
Not really. Every piece of shrinkwrap software comes with a timer that kills itself when it isn't registered in time.

In some cases, it'll even uninstall itself or its core 'premium' components. In others, it'll simply stop displaying information and ask for payment.

Obviously, you couldn't do such a thing if you're a web designer... but if you're a developer, writing a plugin for their CMS or the such, then including a security file in your codebase is a-okay.

And if they call it "work for hire" and attempt to sue you, remind everyone that if you aren't paid then you aren't hired... as per your contract.

Re:Freelance Isn't Free Act Passes in NYC by Bluestrike2 on Wednesday November 23, 2016 @06:34PM (#13026693)
It's different when the customer knows about the timer and agrees to it somewhere in the EULA. It's when you hide that security file, or go back in and do something, that you're stepping into a whole new pile of shit.

A lot of PHP software (forum software like vBulletin, CMS's, etc.) have phone-home or license verification mechanisms. That's usually fine, unless you whip up something nasty that does something beyond just disabling the software in question.

Re:Freelance Isn't Free Act Passes in NYC by logn on Wednesday November 23, 2016 @07:42PM (#13027011)
Maybe you could just add a clause to the contract stating that late payment may result in the software being remotely deactivated.
Re:Freelance Isn't Free Act Passes in NYC by dorianm on Wednesday November 23, 2016 @05:47PM (#13026414)
"Client not paid?

Add opacity to the body tag and increase it every day until their site completely fades away"

https://github.com/andreapaiola/F-D-

Re:Freelance Isn't Free Act Passes in NYC by freelancezombie on Wednesday November 23, 2016 @05:50PM (#13026430)
Hahaha, awesome.
Re:Freelance Isn't Free Act Passes in NYC by vacri on Wednesday November 23, 2016 @06:51PM (#13026776)
For certain kinds of clients (some small businesses), one trick I saw on HN was to simply create their website on an account you own, and the keys were handed over when payment was made.
Re:Freelance Isn't Free Act Passes in NYC by martin-adams on Wednesday November 23, 2016 @04:53PM (#13026070)
Did you also charge them to clean up the homepage?
Re:Freelance Isn't Free Act Passes in NYC by relics443 on Wednesday November 23, 2016 @04:59PM (#13026112)
I didn't, but it was only after some serious internal debate.
Re:Freelance Isn't Free Act Passes in NYC by 77pt77 on Wednesday November 23, 2016 @05:24PM (#13026274)
So, I take it you delivered on the porn?
Re:Freelance Isn't Free Act Passes in NYC by relics443 on Wednesday November 23, 2016 @05:35PM (#13026347)
Most certainly :-)
Re:Freelance Isn't Free Act Passes in NYC by logicallee on Thursday November 24, 2016 @08:44AM (#13030275)
Just to clarify, were they half an hour over the 24 hours incidentally - or did you follow the protocol you outlined and they reacted in the next half hour?
Re:Freelance Isn't Free Act Passes in NYC by bujak on Thursday November 24, 2016 @02:31PM (#13032259)
Ahaha i lost it at 24.5 imagining how they scrambled to the bank when they actually did saw porn on their landing page
Re:Freelance Isn't Free Act Passes in NYC by credit_guy on Wednesday November 23, 2016 @07:07PM (#13026856)
Cool story. I do hope you didn't go all nuclear on them in that 0.5 hours, and you left only a kitten photo there.
Re:Freelance Isn't Free Act Passes in NYC by secfirstmd on Wednesday November 23, 2016 @11:08PM (#13027985)
Name them!