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Re:Shazam Keeps Your Mac’s Microphone Always On, Even When Y... by pmontra on Monday November 14, 2016 @05:33PM (#12953969)
They should start building hardware switches on mics, cameras, WiFi, Bluetooth etc. And we should be able to check that they really work.
Re:Shazam Keeps Your Mac’s Microphone Always On, Even When Y... by zlatan_todoric on Monday November 14, 2016 @06:23PM (#12954275)
We do this with our products https://puri.sm/learn/hardware-kill-switches/ although it would be really good to get more players into same field.
Re:Shazam Keeps Your Mac’s Microphone Always On, Even When Y... by randall on Tuesday November 15, 2016 @03:19AM (#12956446)
Can you guys add a real GPU? I'd buy in a second if it was available.
Re:Shazam Keeps Your Mac’s Microphone Always On, Even When Y... by zlatan_todoric on Saturday November 19, 2016 @05:26AM (#12992808)
Adding nVidia and AMD GPUs would require us to have nonfree drivers or firmwares so that would be against our philosophy. Also adding proprietary stuff is against our goal of creating secure yet convenient OS (we try to free or create things that people need, not close them down even more).
Re:Shazam Keeps Your Mac’s Microphone Always On, Even When Y... by Joof on Monday November 14, 2016 @05:59PM (#12954135)
I also like the idea of building the notification LED for cameras directly into the circuit so that it can't turn on the camera without the LED.
Re:Shazam Keeps Your Mac’s Microphone Always On, Even When Y... by TheGorramBatman on Monday November 14, 2016 @06:11PM (#12954211)
Relevant: https://www.usenix.org/node/184422 "iSeeYou: Disabling the MacBook Webcam Indicator LED"
Re:Shazam Keeps Your Mac’s Microphone Always On, Even When Y... by SG- on Monday November 14, 2016 @11:56PM (#12955700)
This doesn't work with recent MacBooks, only the older models.
Re:Shazam Keeps Your Mac’s Microphone Always On, Even When Y... by shostack on Monday November 14, 2016 @08:10PM (#12954824)
But honestly, most people won't audit the wiring of their device. I wonder if a more low tech solution is the answer...a cover for cameras and some sort of sound blocking cover/plug for microphone holes.
Re:Shazam Keeps Your Mac’s Microphone Always On, Even When Y... by dredmorbius on Tuesday November 15, 2016 @03:08AM (#12956401)
That's the same argument that's been applied against open source software for decades now.

The reality is you don't need everyone to audit their devices, you only need there to be credible auditors. Better: standards mandates that require isolation of any ambient capture devices.

In the alternative, the ability to flood and overload such circuits might be of interest.

Re:Shazam Keeps Your Mac’s Microphone Always On, Even When Y... by pmontra on Tuesday November 15, 2016 @04:01AM (#12956617)
An ok from ifixit would be good enough.
Re:Shazam Keeps Your Mac’s Microphone Always On, Even When Y... by rabidonrails on Monday November 14, 2016 @09:17PM (#12955110)
I think that Jeff Bezos said this is how Alexa/Echo is built.

I can't verify by watching the clip now, but I believe it's in this interview: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yq0ecBGg5Q0

Re:Shazam Keeps Your Mac’s Microphone Always On, Even When Y... by mdda on Monday November 14, 2016 @11:22PM (#12955562)
It's just after 5m45s : https://youtu.be/yq0ecBGg5Q0?t=5m45s
Re:Shazam Keeps Your Mac’s Microphone Always On, Even When Y... by gcr on Monday November 14, 2016 @08:07PM (#12954808)
Apple's is in the firmware, but legend has it that it's possible to bypass.

It would be great to have the light show for both microphone and webcam access.

Re:Shazam Keeps Your Mac’s Microphone Always On, Even When Y... by WalterBright on Monday November 14, 2016 @10:18PM (#12955339)
If it's in the firmware, it is possible to bypass. It must be a hardware switch to be credible.
Re:Shazam Keeps Your Mac’s Microphone Always On, Even When Y... by pkaeding on Monday November 14, 2016 @06:03PM (#12954170)
Nope [1] is one pretty slick after-maket hardware 'switch' you can add to your webcam. Of course, some gaffer's tape works just as well, and costs a lot less (but doesn't look as slick). I don't have any such solution for the microphone, though.

[1] https://www.bungajungle.com/products/nope

Re:Shazam Keeps Your Mac’s Microphone Always On, Even When Y... by icanhackit on Monday November 14, 2016 @06:14PM (#12954231)
[...] some gaffer's tape works just as well, and costs a lot less (but doesn't look as slick). I don't have any such solution for the microphone, though.

The microphone is a hard one. Even if you cover the holes in the casing where the mic is located the sound still travels just fine via the keyboard.

IIRC when a photo came out of Mark Zuckerberg covering his webcam I noticed he covered his mic port with tape as well. He should have checked the volume levels from his mic - it would still pick up everything just fine. In fact I think the tiny mic holes are mostly vestigial.

Re:Shazam Keeps Your Mac’s Microphone Always On, Even When Y... by Gys on Tuesday November 15, 2016 @10:21AM (#12958707)
Or put a dummy plug in the headphone plug ? Such that it would activate the headphone mic without supplying audio. Cutting of all wires from an old plug would do.
Re:Shazam Keeps Your Mac’s Microphone Always On, Even When Y... by pmontra on Wednesday November 16, 2016 @12:04PM (#12968961)
Or a mic with its own volume control. This probably works but it could require writing code to test in on a phone, this is why:

My PC doesn't have a mic plug and the headphone one is only out, no in. With two mics (internal and USB) I can switch among them by software. I'm pretty sure I could do that with an analogue mic.

I wonder if an app could do the same on a phone, switching from the outside dummy mic to the internal one. You'll definitely notice that if you're calling somebody, but if the app only listens when no other app is using the mic, then it's easy to record audio most of the time.

Re:Shazam Keeps Your Mac’s Microphone Always On, Even When Y... by scotu on Tuesday November 15, 2016 @04:05AM (#12956633)
I once was videocalling with my macbook on my lap, suddenly I couldn't be heard by the other party: I moved and my leg was covering the microphone hole. Problem is that the mic is still picking up sounds, just very attenuated.

Maybe a solution would be no integrated microphone, a small low profile microphone in the laptop box to be connected through the laptop mic jack.

Re:Shazam Keeps Your Mac’s Microphone Always On, Even When Y... by r00fus on Tuesday November 15, 2016 @12:08AM (#12955751)
Is there ever a need for a laptop microphone? I always have a headset or BT if I'm doing FaceTime or a confirm call... Why not just disable the hardware or at the OS level?
Re:Shazam Keeps Your Mac’s Microphone Always On, Even When Y... by icanhackit on Tuesday November 15, 2016 @12:18AM (#12955801)
> Why not just disable the hardware

Depends on the make/model of computer - current MacBooks use a lot of glue to hold components together, making minor hardware tweaks a bit of a gamble. It's not impossible, just not as hassle-free as it used to be.

> or at the OS level

If your computer has a rootkit then doing it in software is no good.

Re:Shazam Keeps Your Mac’s Microphone Always On, Even When Y... by astrostl on Tuesday November 15, 2016 @11:04AM (#12959168)
I Kickstarted the Nope 2.0, and it is hot garbage: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1893116150/nope-20-live...
Re:Shazam Keeps Your Mac’s Microphone Always On, Even When Y... by hobarrera on Tuesday November 15, 2016 @12:24AM (#12955832)
Actually, we need more modern OSs that allow isolation of priviledges from apps and alike (similar to what iOS does, but desktop), and manually activating things like cameras/mics per-app.

POSIX (and the upper, newer, layers of API) is really starting to show it's age, since it's from a time when "untrusted software" was not that much of a thing.

Re:Shazam Keeps Your Mac’s Microphone Always On, Even When Y... by pmontra on Tuesday November 15, 2016 @01:34AM (#12956092)
In part yes, but there are people (me included) who are past the point of trusting the companies that are making most of the software and the hardware we use, OS included. That's why verifiable hardware switches are important.
Re:Shazam Keeps Your Mac’s Microphone Always On, Even When Y... by pjmlp on Tuesday November 15, 2016 @01:18AM (#12956029)
That is the direction of macOS and Windows are going, but apparently many wish things to stay the same old POSIX way.
Re:Shazam Keeps Your Mac’s Microphone Always On, Even When Y... by PhantomGremlin on Monday November 14, 2016 @10:35PM (#12955404)
We also need hardware write-protect in storage media such as USB flash drives. Otherwise any system the USB is inserted into can compromise the USB. You usually think of USB compromising a computer, e.g. Stuxnet, but it can also work in the other direction.

Back in the old days of 1/2" mag tape reels, the rule was "no ring, no write". There was a physical ring that needed to be present before a tape drive would write to a mag tape. This was also relatively failsafe. If the ring fell out or was removed, for any reason at all, the data was guaranteed to be safe.

This same mentality carried over to floppy disks. It was possible to protect media in hardware.

But in the interests of saving money, hardware write protect circuitry is quite passe these days. As are hardware switches of all sorts.

Re:Shazam Keeps Your Mac’s Microphone Always On, Even When Y... by koolba on Monday November 14, 2016 @11:06PM (#12955515)
Fun fact about old floppy drives, the write lock didn't actually prevent writes from happening. It was just an indicator. Write prevention was handled by the disk drive which could choose to ignore the write lock.
Re:Shazam Keeps Your Mac’s Microphone Always On, Even When Y... by JadeNB on Monday November 14, 2016 @05:59PM (#12954141)
> And we should be able to check that they really work.

How? Seriously, if you don't trust a hardware switch to work as advertised, then you probably don't trust software correctly to report the state of the hardware; so what would you trust? (I wish that I could say that I think you're being paranoid, but I don't; I just wonder what a zero- or minimal-trust proof of disconnected hardware would look like—short, presumably, of something like a visible air gap that could only be implemented at considerable expense to the portability of modern electronics.)

Re:Shazam Keeps Your Mac’s Microphone Always On, Even When Y... by odbol_ on Monday November 14, 2016 @07:59PM (#12954786)
Do what Edward Snowden does: physically remove the microphone circuitry from your phone, then plug in earbuds if you ever need a microphone to talk on the phone, etc.

I'm guessing he probably didn't buy the new iPhone 7...

Re:Shazam Keeps Your Mac’s Microphone Always On, Even When Y... by voltagex_ on Monday November 14, 2016 @09:13PM (#12955093)
Now there's an interesting thought. How much access do the new headphones have to the rest of the device - they're not just a simple analog connection any more. Do they have DMA?
Re:Shazam Keeps Your Mac’s Microphone Always On, Even When Y... by gizmo686 on Monday November 14, 2016 @06:46PM (#12954382)
>so what would you trust?

Physics. Their not being an unnoticed second camera/microphones/etc.

If you main concern is that your computer will be used to spy on your physical life, then having verified switches can give you confidence from first principles that it it has no way of observing you (modulo secondary sensors that you did not notice.)

Re:Shazam Keeps Your Mac’s Microphone Always On, Even When Y... by JadeNB on Monday November 14, 2016 @07:42PM (#12954696)
> having verified switches can give you confidence from first principles that it it has no way of observing you

Right, but this is what I meant to ask: how does one verify a switch that has been manufactured by someone else? I suppose that an electrical engineer could check the schematics, but how do you verify that the actual hardware in your device matches the schematics?

Re:Shazam Keeps Your Mac’s Microphone Always On, Even When Y... by gizmo686 on Monday November 14, 2016 @08:06PM (#12954805)
Switches are very simple devices. If the switch mechanism is not enclosed, it is easy to look one and see that the input leads are separated by the output leads by an air gap. Of course, a sufficiently motivated attacker could still work around this (by eg, by finding a side channel, or having the plastic of the switch be somewhat conductive). However, these attacks are far more difficult, and far less plausibly deniable.
Re:Shazam Keeps Your Mac’s Microphone Always On, Even When Y... by kevhito on Monday November 14, 2016 @08:29PM (#12954890)
> Switches are very simple devices. If the switch mechanism is not enclosed, ...

Sarcasm, I hope? I spent an hour this weekend replacing some micro switches in some decrepit robots. These are about 5mm^3, which is pretty tiny, but huge on the scale of a modern phone. They are basically hunks of plastic with a button on one side and six or so leads coming out the other side. No, you can't open them up and see the air gap without destroying them. And yes, they are small enough to easily contain a full CPU, some flash memory, and a few sensors, even though they only really need a few sliding metal and plastic bits.

Re:Shazam Keeps Your Mac’s Microphone Always On, Even When Y... by gizmo686 on Monday November 14, 2016 @08:51PM (#12954990)
Sorry if I wasn't being clear. My point is that it is possibly to have switches that are easily verifiable. Most switches that exists are not because there is no motivation to make them so.
Re:Shazam Keeps Your Mac’s Microphone Always On, Even When Y... by nitrogen on Tuesday November 15, 2016 @12:57AM (#12955949)
They should be easy to xray.
Re:Shazam Keeps Your Mac’s Microphone Always On, Even When Y... by tree_of_item on Monday November 14, 2016 @07:36PM (#12954669)
Physics? Can you go in to some detail as to what you mean by this? You can't see physics with your eyes.
Re:Shazam Keeps Your Mac’s Microphone Always On, Even When Y... by TeMPOraL on Wednesday November 16, 2016 @08:01AM (#12966511)
My guess is you haven't seen this yet:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RkTvDjhImwo

Re:Shazam Keeps Your Mac’s Microphone Always On, Even When Y... by awqrre on Monday November 14, 2016 @08:34PM (#12954915)
Apple would have an heart attack if they would be required to do this...