I am a developer and I could not care less about function keys.

Why the duck would developers need function keys? Even for Vim, the age-old advice is to remap Esc so that you keep your hands on the home row.

A flexible multi-touch strip of context-aware keys can do much more things -- e.g. map debugger step moves when I'm running an IDE, or trigger builds, show the SCM status of the current opened file, etc.

What should I do instead? Serious question.

I would worry that with no physical presence on the keyboard, I would spend a lot more time looking at the keyboard figuring out where the function key I need is than actually getting things done.

I would be keen to see a review from somebody who uses the new Macbook Pro professionally as a developer to see if this is as much of an issue as I imagine it to be.

Exactly. In Eclipse, F5 steps into a function call, F6 steps over it, F7 returns from the current function, and F8 resumes execution, and mistakenly pressing the adjacent key can be frustrating (although, with time-travel debuggers, this issue might be alleviated?).

With T440, the spacing was back.

Stepping through the debugger is not typing, and function keys change role according to the selected app anyway. And when they are system function keys (brightness, volume, etc) they are even more irrelevant to typing and/or touch typing.

Besides, there's nothing particularly hard about finding a touch based F6 key compared to a physical F6 key. A key's position (which won't change) gives more of a clue than the key's boundaries.

Heck, it's called touch typing -- a touch strip doesn't sound that alien to it.

Stepping through the debugger is not typing,

I disagree. E.g. when you're deciding to step in vs. step past vs. step out vs. run etc.; finding the right key is extremely important.

...and I challenge anyone to hover their fingers over the respective keys continuously for hours without touching them, losing their alignment, or unnecessarily tiring the muscles of their hand.

I use a Logitech G910 keyboard (love those Romer G switches now, even though it took a while), and e.g. setting a break point with F9 is easy as it's the first key of the third block. For a debugging session, the rest follow - I can rest my fingers on the buttons and just step through / skip over etc - no need to look at all, the focus staying on the code.

Actually knowing when I press the button too is extremely important; there's no mistaking the action on a physical keyboard.

I also have a X1 Carbon laptop, the first gen. Fantastic keyboard (and thanks to getting the i7/8/256 version which was rather outstanding back then, it still serves me well today even though the 8gb is getting limiting). In its 2nd iteration, they went for capacitive function keys, much to just about everyone's chagrin. Thankfully, Lenovo listened to feedback and in its the 3rd generation the function keys are back to normal, i.e. same as mine. If they bring a 32gb model out by the time I feel I need to upgrade, I'll probably look at another one (in 1-2 years).

Not only debuggers, like others mentioned. But also some popular file managers (windows: Far, Total Commander; linux and osx: Midnight Commander).

When using these applications, I can copy files using F5 - and I know it is F5 without looking, because it is in the middle and has an empty space to the left. Similarly with F8 (delete) - in the right region, has space to the right.

With touch strip, you pretty much have to look away from the screen, onto the strip.

Well, no such space on the physical keyboard I'm using now. Not after F5, and not after F8.

Yes, there are such keyboards, from the popular ones Thinkpad [TX][245]30 series for example and the previous rMBP too. However, most keyboards do have the spacing.

It is possible to show F keys by holding the fn key and you can configure the touchbar to always show F keys by default.

Sleeping in a bed is an arbitrary habit that you've grown comfortable with, why not sleep on the floor, or in the bath?

The fact is that when developing and debugging, the function keys represent the most efficient way of stepping through code, and a part of this is to do with their physical presence on the keyboard.

I know that I don't have to use them, there are other ways to achieve the same thing, but those things have always been there and I choose the function keys because they are the best option.

Because contrary to what you say, sleeping in a bed is not just an arbitrary habit. The bed is a special purpose piece of furniture, optimised for sleeping in. The use of f-key to step through a program is OTOH simply an accident of history. The f-keys were chosen because they were there. Had they not been, some other solution would have been invented, using the keys that were there, and (this is my point) the solution would have been just as good!

But I use the escape key hundreds of times a day.. not having that as a dedicated key will hinder me as much as removing the backspace key.. I mean nobody needs to go back, and you can just use the mouse with cut..

Because your back will hurt, so not that arbitrary after all.

You will have no adverse effects of using an alternate method to step in the debugger.

>The fact is that when developing and debugging, the function keys represent the most efficient way of stepping through code

Citation needed. They are at best a random accident. Any other keys or key combos could be used.

Emacs users are blinking skeptically.

You mean a workflow?

Who are you (or anyone else) to decide what works best for me? Am I not capable of making my own decisions? Do I really need a hardware company making those choices for me?

Most people aren't -- from politics to personal finances and relationships, there are tons of bad decisions everywhere one looks. (Including my decision to answer this comment some would say -- heh).

We have schools, best practices, guidelines, standards etc, to try to enforce some good decisions upon people.

That said, if one feels strongly about it, there's always the decision NOT to buy such a laptop.

And many people are making that decision, so what seems to be your problem with this?

No problem with this.

My problem is that they frame it as if their personal habits/users are universal, and a computer that doesn't cater to these is inherently bad (as opposed to just bad for them).

Did you not read beyond my first sentence?

Who are we as programmers to decide what works best for our users? Were the clerks at the bank not capable of deciding for themselves if their pen and paper workflows worked better for them than the computer programs we made to replace them? The typographers of yore were almost certainly more comfortable and faster using a linotype machine than this new fangled desktop publishing software, that we invented. I simply cannot wrap my head around people in our profession who kick and scream because the march of progress once in a while makes their lifes a tiny bit uncomfortable for a short while.

And your argument regarding publishing and banking software is a strawman intended to shift the focus away from the real argument - that of choice. Forcing a change on my workflow can have very real effects on my ability to generate income. Why should anyone be ok with that?

Where did I say that? You seem confused.

I am saying that we as programmers force people to change their habits all the time. We do it to in the name of efficiency and progress. We eliminate workflows, we make entire jobs redundant. We of all people should be able to recognise that even though change is uncomfortable, it is inevitable, and mostly for the better.

And your argument regarding publishing and banking software is a strawman intended to shift the focus away from the real argument - that of choice

Please. Even if we pretend that you don't still have the option to use a third party keyboard, or buy one of the Macs that still have the f-keys, what about the people who would prefer the new touch bar to the f-keys? What about their choice?

Forcing a change on my workflow can have very real effects on my ability to generate income

I'm sorry, but that's ridiculous. You are not going to feel a very real effect on your ability to generate an income simply by being forced to learn a different set of shortcut keys to step through a debugger.

How is that different to any workflow used (and could be preferable) by millions of people that's deprecated due to new software programs?

Not to mention software that entirely kills their job and their ability to generate income from doing it altogether?

The problem is, say you're an iOS developer, you get no choice; you HAVE to run a Mac and be at Apple's mercy.

Other programs usually have decent alternatives or you can customise them to suit you,

Firstly, it's not true that you don't get a choice. Apple still makes laptops with f-keys. And you can always plug in a 3rd party keyboard.

Secondly, an more importantly, of all the options Apple don't give you (and there are an infinite amount of them), this one is so minor. Why, other this is how you are used to it, are the important reasons for using specifically the f-keys to step through a debugger? What is wrong with any of the other keys?

I agree of course that change merely for the sake of change is not a good idea, but surely, surely we can all recognise that Apple did not make this change on whim, simply to try something different?

Sorry, I'm just not seeing the draw. I'm also struggling to buy into the "not everyone is a touch typist" excuse. Anyone under the age of about 40 has had a typing class. Anyone under the age of about 25 (who is using a computer for their job/attending college) knew they were going to spend the rest of their life using a computer and probably paid attention.

Most people "take their eyes of the monitor to use" the function keys. Given this, the function row strip will finally be more usable and more obvious for lots of other uses besides volume and brightness (things that people at best adjust a dozen of times a day).

Most laptop users are neither programmers not touch typists that use the function row 2000 times a day. Nor does being a "pro" users means you are either of them. A graphic designer might not be a touch typist or care for the f row, but he is a professional. Same for a doctor, an architect, a musician, a videographer, a CEO, an accountant, etc etc...

"Sorry, but I'm just not interested in this motorized wagon you've invented. It's noisy and ugly. Could you please just go and invent me a faster horse instead?"

This is the next Apple Watch in the making.

So, a product that went from non-existent to being the #1 sold item in it's niche, the #2 in overall watch sales, and outsold competitor smartwatches 10 to 1, becoming a multi-billion dollar thing?

And all that in it's first 2-3 years (it took more for the iPod to become ubiquitous from its 2001 introduction), and while not of course being expected to become the next iPhone anyway...

Yeah, some failure.

Then you lose the ability to change the code while you're debugging it, or end up with a modal UI. No thanks.

If you're using Windows, the F keys appear on the Touch Bar. /story

Use the strip bar in debugger keys mode, or function keys mode for non-updated apps?

Or use printf statements (seriously -- I never advocated for much debugger use, unless it concerns very focused stepping. A lot of people step all around and examine everything and anything for ages with no clear idea of what the bug might be).

Whether that's "better overall" or not depends on individual usage patterns. Personally, I don't really stray from the alphanumeric part of the keyboard often, and I can rebind esc, so the Touchbar's mostly a moot point for me. My strongest reason to dislike it is that it adds yet another set of potential points of failure for the machine without providing (for my purposes) much benefit.

I remember the time when everybody was getting one of these: https://elitekeyboards.com/products.php?sub=pfu_keyboards,hh...

Apple tinkering with the function keys has allowed the development community to recongratulate themselves with IDE it seems.

Seems also that people confidently touch type debugger instruction, despite the key that you want being literally squeezed between 2 keys that will ruin you debugging session and make you lose the next 10 minutes.

I think the developer community at large is more prone to overreaction.

Note that I think people are going to be impacted. I think the touchbar is a downgrade for people that needs to use Windows either in the VM or Bootcamp. Some IDE are especially F-keys happy like Eclipse will be slightly worst of.

I still type on an old MBP with physical F-keys and they are actually awful for touch typing. They are smaller, evenly spaced (no grouped) and not aligned with the lower key rows. If you are serious about touch typing potentially workflow ruining key combination like debugger ones, you must use an external keyboard already.

And used the 2nd function (volume brightness etc) as the default for touch bar.

That way the touch bar is useful and functionality of function keys is kept. I would have bought the new mbp if that's what they did.

Now I'm going to get a dell :/

Give it a year or two, and most PC laptops will come with a touch bar.

From the exterior (I'm too young and the only Mac I've ever used was the Macintosh Plus -bragging, with 4Mo of RAM- while I was a child), it really seems like Apple has dropped the ball for professionals, both developers and graphics people.

There are now equally well designed PCs (laptops and desktops) from other manufacturers, Windows has a lot of support, if you want to use Linux, the kernel now supports a wide range of hardware.

In the meantime, Apple doesn't have a good desktop offering, and their laptops seem gimmicky to me while not offering a performance edge over their competitors.

A few months ago I thought about buying a (my first) Macbook and waited for their announcement, now I'm looking the other way.

And around me, I'm the guy people go to ask when they have a computer related purchase to make.

That bit is debatable.

I see machines like the HP Spectre and feel they are still somewhat overdesigned.

Mac have never been "for Pro" if you go that way. So I guess it confirm that it's not the company that shifted it's focus, but maybe there is more potentials customers expectation of Apple going more "pro".

Yes, Apple has never targeted businesses, but they did target individuals professionnals at some point. Video and sound editors used to work on Macs, and now move to windows. It's a classic, but is it wrong?

However this recent announcement from IBM might emphasis the need to reconsider theses year old arguments to take accounts of new facts : https://www.jamf.com/blog/debate-over-ibm-confirms-that-macs...

But for standards businesses with relatively technologically inept people, when you need an Active Directory, you just need it.