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Re:Diamonds Suck (2006) by Moshe_Silnorin on Sunday November 13, 2016 @01:19PM (#12944701)
So people do this to signal (both to their spouse and their friends) they are both financially capable and care enough about their spouse to burn a large amount of money on a pyre. It's also a very useful signal that you are serious about the commitment and unlikely to back off of the marriage. I would prefer to replace it with a certificate that proves you have spent X thousand dollars on said certificate from Moche Silnorin Inc. A less personally-beneficial alternative would be some sort of modern dowery, the recipient of which is Moche Silnorin Inc, who holds on to the money until the culmination of the marriage, after which the dowery is given to the wife and so reunited with its giver once they share finances. If the engagement gets broken off, Moche Silnorin Inc keeps the money. However, this raises the possibility of bondsmen. Which isn't a possibility with diamonds, with their awful resale value. So perhaps just a non-refundable expense in exchange for proof you've given X thousand dollars to Moche Silnorin Inc would be ideal.
Re:Diamonds Suck (2006) by digitaltrees on Sunday November 13, 2016 @01:34PM (#12944788)
Check out this article, http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2015/02/how...

It shows how the concept of diamond engagement rings were completely invented by a specific ad campaign; first in America and now expanding to the rest of the world.

They were specifically trying to create social pressure to buy the most expensive ring possible; to reinforce the impression that a diamond ring demonstrated wealth and ability to take care of a spouse; and even set the three months salary purchase price target most people reference.

If there's ever been a greater con so openly and deliberately imposed on society, I can't think of one off the top my head.

Re:Diamonds Suck (2006) by lqdc13 on Sunday November 13, 2016 @10:59PM (#12947461)
Everyone knows about it and yet everyone does it.

It is like getting a luxury brand car or a watch or living in a certain part of town. All aren't practical.

When social pressure is already there, you are asking the female partner to break the norm which can be tough.

Re:Diamonds Suck (2006) by Fiahil on Monday November 14, 2016 @05:57AM (#12948927)
Come on, it's 2016, the female partner can take care of herself. Valiant knights are not needed anymore, she's slaying dragons too.
Re:Diamonds Suck (2006) by delecti on Monday November 14, 2016 @10:49AM (#12950509)
It's even worse than those. A luxury car will probably be high quality, and might have extra features not standard on more reasonably priced cars. Living in a certain part of town is probably safer. A fancy diamond is only expensive because people think it can be expensive.
Re:Diamonds Suck (2006) by nitwit005 on Sunday November 13, 2016 @07:32PM (#12946667)
De Beers specifically ran ads suggesting that you should spend 2 months salary on your ring, and people bought that idea: http://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/304/media/images/74843000/jpg/_...

When you go to buy a ring they even ask you how much you make some of the time. It's not so much a signaling mechanism, as companies trying to bleed as much as you can possibly afford out of you.

Re:Diamonds Suck (2006) by morgante on Sunday November 13, 2016 @05:20PM (#12946014)
Exactly this. The problem with every diamond critique I see is that their very first argument against diamonds is that they're expensive when that is, in fact, the entire point.

Likewise, all the people who cry foul about the De Beers conspiracy are neglecting the fact that this does absolutely nothing to reduce their signal value. If I spend a large sum of money on something which I know to be worthless just to start my engagement, that's an even better commitment than spending a large sum of money on something which I think is worthless.

People who are anti-diamond should really focus on coming up with alternative signals which has better social outcomes. I would personally prefer some sort of trust, where if the engagement is successful the money is donated to our preferred charity—but if it's not, it's donated to a politician I despise.

If we're dead-set on continuing to use pretty rocks as signals, someone should establish a monopoly on a gem which is impossible to procure from exploiting conflicts. They should still make it extremely expensive, but have all the mining be ethical.

Re:Diamonds Suck (2006) by Can_Not on Sunday November 13, 2016 @06:00PM (#12946254)
> If we're dead-set on continuing to use pretty rocks as signals

Why do we need signals? Why does the social contract of marriage need an expensive down payment on essentially nothing? These are things modern cultures should be distancing themselves from. The down payment should be for a house or apartment, or just anything useful.

Re:Diamonds Suck (2006) by morgante on Sunday November 13, 2016 @06:10PM (#12946307)
> Why do we need signals?

Signals are an essential aspect of human behavior. I don't think trying to eliminate signaling is a productive goal.

You yourself brought up the "social contract" of marriage. A contract is not very powerful if there aren't consequences for breaking it. So that's one crucial signal: we are committed enough to this relationship to spend money on something which is only useful as a signal.

There's also the signals of "my mate is wealthy enough to buy me an expensive diamond" and "he cares enough about me to spend a large sum of money on something which has no useful purpose besides signaling his love for me." Simply wishing that these signals didn't exist won't make them go away.

Useful things make poor signals because you might buy them without any intention of signaling anything. That's why glasses are a worse signal than jewelry, even though they cost just as much: you might be spending money on glasses because you need to see, not because you have money to burn.

Re:Diamonds Suck (2006) by Can_Not on Sunday November 13, 2016 @06:33PM (#12946436)
Yes, that is the exact kind of ritualistic barbarianism that modern societies should be avoiding. There's nearly endless better ways to have that money spent, even before you get to the "blood" part of blood diamonds.
Re:Diamonds Suck (2006) by gech on Sunday November 13, 2016 @11:27PM (#12947566)
> Simply wishing that these signals didn't exist won't make them go away.

No, we try to make the case for the waste and stupidity, and when a group still can not come to terms with it, we shame them.

Re:Diamonds Suck (2006) by hohenheim on Tuesday November 15, 2016 @09:00AM (#12957985)
If you need money to show your devotion and dedication to a relationship, you will be having a hard time. A relationship makes sense as long as parties enjoy each others company regardless of the size of diamond on the finger.

If something external, such as an expensive ring, is to keep the relationship afloat, I have hard time seeing a point of living and sharing your life with someone.

Re:Diamonds Suck (2006) by saiya-jin on Monday November 14, 2016 @08:16AM (#12949601)
only immature people with little real relationship experience would consider this childish signaling worth a dime. the only signal being passed is bowing to peer pressure just because you don't want to stick out
Re:Diamonds Suck (2006) by joesb on Sunday November 13, 2016 @11:48PM (#12947630)
Saying you are married to someone is also a kind of signal.

Why do you propose? Why do you say "I love you"? They are all signal.

Re:Diamonds Suck (2006) by Nursie on Monday November 14, 2016 @06:40AM (#12949127)
This is a cultural thing you've bought into, that a man must give a woman a tool to signal with. In other cultures this is not important or works the other way around.

I'm anti diamond and your pleas to come up with another useless signal fall on deaf ears - this manufactured need for the signal itself is something we should be fighting as we progress.

For a start it's pretty damned sexist and regressive

Re:Diamonds Suck (2006) by morgante on Monday November 14, 2016 @06:47AM (#12949166)
Why do you assume I've "bought into" it? I have no intention to marry any time soon, I just think it's unhelpful to completely ignore the reason diamonds are used for engagement rings.
Re:Diamonds Suck (2006) by Nursie on Monday November 14, 2016 @07:09AM (#12949268)
Bought into idealogically speaking.

I think the 'reason' is a rationalisation and not hard and fast, it's also culture-specific so hardly transcendent. That's why I take issue with the idea of replacing one signal with the other - the worth of tge signal is entirely subjective and the signal itself is rather out of place in the modern world.

Re:Diamonds Suck (2006) by touleier on Monday November 14, 2016 @02:29PM (#12952513)
Oh dear. We are constantly subjected to this sort of scolding in the name of some political ideology (in this case, 'wimmin'). Diamonds are exactly about signaling, as is an Ivy League education. Attributing useful properties to either only confuses the signal, which is purest when there is absolutely no utility. Since Ivy League schools pre-select, it is not hard to show that they add no value in and of themselves, apart from fleecing the recipients in exchange for safe spaces.
Re:Diamonds Suck (2006) by Nursie on Monday November 14, 2016 @07:55PM (#12954762)
Scolding?

I'm just pointing out that the basis of this signalling behaviour (if it is as described) is somewhat sexist and regressive - it makes assumptions about the man being the provider and the woman being kept.

Diamonds are indeed all about signalling. Enjoy yourself doing that. Some of us will be laughing at you behind your back for falling for the con though.

Re:Diamonds Suck (2006) by sebbySebbyBinx on Monday November 14, 2016 @03:05AM (#12948248)
Alternative signal: Bitcoin. If the engagement ends poorly, the Bitcoin can be un-earmarked and so the entire value can be salvaged. Many other obvious pros as well.

http://thebtcring.com/

Re:Diamonds Suck (2006) by morgante on Monday November 14, 2016 @03:14AM (#12948289)
Yes giving a girl a Bitcoin ring is certainly a signal of something.
Re:Diamonds Suck (2006) by ajkjk on Sunday November 13, 2016 @01:40PM (#12944823)
It's definitely not just that, because placing huge import on diamonds, and gushing over their (much agreed upon) beauty, and having preferences for stones and cuts etc., and showing them off at the office, and talking about their size and how much they must have cost, and equating some of those things with the size of someone's affection and worth as a person, are still ubiquitous in (at least) American society.

As far as I can tell they're only on the way out with bleeding-edge progressives.

Re:Diamonds Suck (2006) by Moshe_Silnorin on Sunday November 13, 2016 @01:43PM (#12944840)
>As far as I can tell they're only on the way out with bleeding-edge progressives.

A demographic known for their immunity to costly signalling behaviors.

Re:Diamonds Suck (2006) by hueving on Sunday November 13, 2016 @04:17PM (#12945726)
Which is why the Tesla model S is so wildly unpopular in the bay area.
Re:Diamonds Suck (2006) by findjashua on Tuesday November 15, 2016 @04:13PM (#12962277)
Totally. It doesn't serve any purpose other than signaling status, can't imagine what else anyone could possibly like about it. /s
Re:Diamonds Suck (2006) by ajkjk on Sunday November 13, 2016 @03:58PM (#12945628)
Just trying to work in a jab against that group?
Re:Diamonds Suck (2006) by amelius on Sunday November 13, 2016 @01:32PM (#12944781)
Re:Diamonds Suck (2006) by pessimizer on Sunday November 13, 2016 @02:28PM (#12945114)
How would she wear the certificate? Across her chest like a sash?
Re:Diamonds Suck (2006) by Cyph0n on Monday November 14, 2016 @12:01AM (#12947668)
Why does it need to be flaunted? As long as the couple is happy, that's all that matters.