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Re:Airlines Embrace Pollution Plan That Could Cost Them $24B by phkahler on Monday September 26, 2016 @12:29PM (#12583229)
What a great barrier to competition. If a smaller airline grows, they'll have to buy "credits".

Cap and Trade is political bullshit. If you want to tax carbon emissions, tax the fuel coming out of the ground and let the drillers and diggers pass that on to whomever uses the fuel. It's the only way to be fair about it. Otherwise just accept that this is nothing more than a political game.

Re:Airlines Embrace Pollution Plan That Could Cost Them $24B by tzs on Monday September 26, 2016 @01:07PM (#12583567)
Why wouldn't the tax on fuel be a barrier to competition too, under your reasoning? To grow, the smaller airline would need more fuel, and so would be paying more.

Emissions are approximately proportional to fuel use, so I don't see how a tax on fuel (which would be proportional to fuel use) would have any lesser or greater effect than a credit system on emissions (assuming credits needed are proportional to emissions).

Re:Airlines Embrace Pollution Plan That Could Cost Them $24B by hammock on Monday September 26, 2016 @01:41PM (#12583893)
If I understand the accord correctly, the difference is existing emissions are grandfathered in/exempt. The offsets are only required on emissions growth (new emissions above current levels). So a new entrant would have to pay the "tax" on all new flights while the legacy carriers only pay on the difference from present flights.
Re:Airlines Embrace Pollution Plan That Could Cost Them $24B by phkahler on Monday September 26, 2016 @02:08PM (#12584143)
>> Why wouldn't the tax on fuel be a barrier to competition too, under your reasoning? To grow, the smaller airline would need more fuel, and so would be paying more.

Under the proposal, nobody pays anything if they maintain their current emissions. But if a small airline grows and takes market share from a big one, the small one will have to buy credits and the big one will be able to sell credits. The little guy in effect pays the big guy for taking his market share.

If you tax the fuel directly, everyone gets a cost increase right away which they should pass on to their customers. But it doesn't have adverse effects on the free market like the credit system does. You fly more planes, you'll pay more taxes but in proportion to your new revenue so it doesn't really matter.

Re:Airlines Embrace Pollution Plan That Could Cost Them $24B by SilasX on Monday September 26, 2016 @02:56PM (#12584580)
I think the difference is that under a tax, air travel can still expand without bound as people are willing to pay more for the air travel, but if you cap emissions, then air travel can't expand, regardless of whether people are willing to pay more than the cost of the environmental damage.

(And yes, folks, the environmental damage from any one use is bounded; it can't possibly cost more than the cost to undo that damage. If your model of the environmental damage implies it is infinity, it's just wrong, and it's driving bad policy.)

Re:Airlines Embrace Pollution Plan That Could Cost Them $24B by rayiner on Monday September 26, 2016 @01:37PM (#12583847)
But it seems like credits needed aren't proportional to emissions, but emissions growth.
Re:Airlines Embrace Pollution Plan That Could Cost Them $24B by Idontagree on Monday September 26, 2016 @02:00PM (#12584059)
Why would you bother making the system more complicated. If it's determined that use of fuel creates emission problems, then just tax it at the start and don't try to worry about every industry to come.
Re:Airlines Embrace Pollution Plan That Could Cost Them $24B by lmm on Monday September 26, 2016 @12:40PM (#12583328)
> If you want to tax carbon emissions, tax the fuel coming out of the ground and let the drillers and diggers pass that on to whomever uses the fuel.

Isn't that what cap and trade is? What's the distinction here?

Re:Airlines Embrace Pollution Plan That Could Cost Them $24B by stinkytaco on Monday September 26, 2016 @12:59PM (#12583491)
Cap and trade limits emissions, but then allows you to buy off that limit by paying what amounts to a fine, but a fine that is directed at certain uses (sustainable energy, etc.). One could argue it's not really a market based solution to the problem, since unless the "trade" is high enough, there's no real reason to address the actual problem -- emissions. Making fuel more expensive would force companies to adjust to an immediate operating cost, rather than being able to lobby for higher "caps" or lower "trades". You are essentially creating a new market (with its own rules and inefficiencies), instead of trying to manage an existing one.

The problem with taxing the oil coming out of the ground is the incredibly complex nature of an unstable global market that is managed largely by a small number of players artificially controlling the price and a whole futures market trying to hedge against that roller coaster. It's also a market that wars are literally fought over. Finally, it's political suicide since it will impact consumers directly in the amount it costs them to fill their cars instead of indirectly, which they are less likely to blame on oil taxes.

Re:Airlines Embrace Pollution Plan That Could Cost Them $24B by phkahler on Monday September 26, 2016 @02:02PM (#12584093)
>> The problem with taxing the oil coming out of the ground is the incredibly complex nature of an unstable global market...

Just put a fixed tax per barrel, or per carbon atom, or whatever. The tax shouldn't depend on the price paid for the oil. Just put $1 for every barrel pumped in the US, and every barrel imported and presto - $19M per day of tax revenue ($7B per year) without a major impact to the consumer, and without creating that new market for credits and the associated politics. Do the equivalent for coal and gas too - you know all the carbon sources. People act like passing on a price increase is going to hurt their business, but when everyone has to do it that's not true.

Re:Airlines Embrace Pollution Plan That Could Cost Them $24B by stinkytaco on Monday September 26, 2016 @02:19PM (#12584248)
Well, other than the fact that you are oversimplifying a complex issue, I don't necessarily think you are wrong. But just to address some of the possible externalities that would have to be considered:

1. Not all oil that comes into the US is in the form of barrels of crude oil. It may come in refined (a small amount, I assume, considering the oversupply of refineries in the US). But more likely it comes in as part of an imported product.

2. Which leads to the problem we already have: if oil is expensive in the US, that further incentivizes moving to where it is not expensive. Instead of buying your expensive fertilizers to grow food in the US, why not grow more crops in Mexico or Canada and import them?

3. Or perhaps oil is a part of the manufacturing process (i.e. plastics). Now it's all of a sudden even cheaper to manufacture outside of the US. Of course, you also have the complicated problem of recycled materials as well.

4. Or it's part of the shipping process. I'm not sure how you even tax this.

All these problems need to be managed. We would need to address figuring out how much oil goes into any one thing we consume. We need to address free trade agreements (can we charge duty on a product depending on how much oil was used to make it, ship it or grow it?). We would need to provide incentives to recycling, manufacturing, organic agriculture, etc. etc.

It's not that these aren't problems we should try to solve, it's just that "presto, 7B of income a year" is not what will happen.

Re:Airlines Embrace Pollution Plan That Could Cost Them $24B by phkahler on Tuesday September 27, 2016 @09:10AM (#12589310)
Since this is an international agreement, you'd have to tax ALL carbon producers around the world. How you divide that tax revenue between the different countries would then be a political game but much simpler than creating a whole new market for carbon credits. Again, tax the carbon at the source and it won't matter weather it's refined, burned directly, or turned into plastic products, carbon out of the ground will all be taxed at the same rate to discourage it's unearthing. You say I'm oversimplifying a complex issue, but I'd argue that others are making it a complex issue when in fact it's conceptually very simple.
Re:Airlines Embrace Pollution Plan That Could Cost Them $24B by lmm on Wednesday September 28, 2016 @04:06AM (#12596124)
> Again, tax the carbon at the source and it won't matter weather it's refined, burned directly, or turned into plastic products, carbon out of the ground will all be taxed at the same rate to discourage it's unearthing.

Doesn't that create the wrong incentives? Digging up carbon and using it to make stuff that is kept around indefinitely / recycled into more stuff / buried when life-expired should be fine - it's putting it into the atmosphere that we want to discourage.

(Also there should be a positive incentive for taking carbon out of the atmosphere permanently).

Re:Airlines Embrace Pollution Plan That Could Cost Them $24B by Shivetya on Monday September 26, 2016 @01:02PM (#12583515)
cap and trade is pure political theater where politicians can decide who providing credits, so favorite sons type stuff. If we just tax the stuff coming out of the ground at the source the politicians cannot play favorites in the credit game.

its one way that countries try to avoid fair trade as it gets harder to follow the money. it also lets politicians unfairly subsidize some businesses over others because of whom runs them, not what benefit they provide.

so tax it once and get it done with

Re:Airlines Embrace Pollution Plan That Could Cost Them $24B by josho on Monday September 26, 2016 @01:58PM (#12584046)
The finance industry loves cap and trade schemes as it creates a new market to trade and create financial products for.

The generally accepted solution is a carbon tax that increases over time. The tax can even be revenue neutral with everyone getting an equal share of a year end rebate.

Re:Airlines Embrace Pollution Plan That Could Cost Them $24B by wyager on Monday September 26, 2016 @12:59PM (#12583490)
Airlines are paying for any additional growth after 2020, not for current pollution.
Re:Airlines Embrace Pollution Plan That Could Cost Them $24B by Gravityloss on Monday September 26, 2016 @03:46PM (#12584952)
There can be zero quota cap and trade, where everyone starts from zero and all the emissions rights are auctioned. (I'm not an economist or lawyer so might misuse the exact terms, but I hope you get the point.)