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Re:Reasons not to use (i.e., be used by) Facebook by beagle3 on Sunday June 26, 2016 @03:05PM (#11982126)
I do not use "democrap" or "republicant", as they do not promote the discussion or understanding in any way.

However, I did adopt Stallman's "Copy Restriction" (instead of "Copy Protection") and "Digital Restriction Management" (instead of "Digital Right Management") - because they are a much better description of what the concept actually is for 99% of the people.

I started doing this after I told someone that I will not buy a Depeche Mode CD I wanted and was holding in my hand in the store, because it has copy protection; they looked at me completely puzzled, asking "Why wouldn't you want your copy to be protected?", and a little more inquiry revealed that they believed it was a somehow more robust (by virtue of being "protected") than non-copy protected CDs.

Language is a very potent medium of control. You are, indeed, used by facebook when you interact with it, and introducing it into the language is a way to bring it to the surface. He's not using "useds" to be clever. He's bringing it to the surface. It might look stupid to you, but I assure you that you are not immune to this kind of bias (and neither am I). I know that's why he does that, because I've heard him personally explain that when attending one of his talks.

In fact, if you look at the works of Kahenman & Tversky, you see that equivalent questions worded differently get opposite responses from people who we expect to know better (e.g. doctors, pilots, ...).

Stallman is basically trying to counter the (essentially unlimited) bias that the media has against what he believes, and I don't know of any tool that does that better than the rhetorical device(s) he is using.

Re:Reasons not to use (i.e., be used by) Facebook by andrei_says_ on Sunday June 26, 2016 @03:13PM (#11982169)
I think you'll enjoy this lecture by linguistics professor George Lakoff: http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=5f9R9MtkpqM

Among other things he speaks of the think-tank-driven concerted effort to influence political support by using language invoking specific metaphors to frame important issues.

Like "Tax Relief" for dramatically reducing taxes for the rich etc.

Changed how I process political speech and pretty much any media-supported narrative.

Re:Reasons not to use (i.e., be used by) Facebook by kerkeslager on Sunday June 26, 2016 @03:34PM (#11982276)
In the same vein, Orwell's Politics and the English Language[1] is an earlier observation of similar phenomena.

[1] https://www.mtholyoke.edu/acad/intrel/orwell46.htm

Re:Reasons not to use (i.e., be used by) Facebook by mathattack on Monday June 27, 2016 @07:49AM (#11985547)
I was just going to reference this. He was a master on the power of words, in both explaining it (as in your reference) and showing it in 1984 and Animal Farm.
Re:Reasons not to use (i.e., be used by) Facebook by beefield on Sunday June 26, 2016 @03:49PM (#11982348)
I recommend also Lakoff's book "Don't think of an elephant"

I thought it is a good story how rethoric and framing is used nowadays in politics.

Re:Reasons not to use (i.e., be used by) Facebook by ovt on Sunday June 26, 2016 @04:49PM (#11982634)
Lakoff and framing seemed to be in the air around 2003 or 2004, and it was a very good development.

And then everyone forgot it, or maybe were encouraged to forget it.

Re:Reasons not to use (i.e., be used by) Facebook by igravious on Sunday June 26, 2016 @06:10PM (#11983023)
Thank you for this link. More and more I am appreciating this guy's research. Have never seen him speak, what a natural speaker, very enjoyable as well as edifying.
Re:Reasons not to use (i.e., be used by) Facebook by cbHXBY1D on Sunday June 26, 2016 @08:25PM (#11983532)
Never meet your heroes. I was a big fan of his work before taking a class with him. He's the rockstar of the cogsci department at Berkeley but he's known as a massive ego and a poor professor.
Re:Reasons not to use (i.e., be used by) Facebook by Dotnaught on Monday June 27, 2016 @12:19AM (#11984199)
I took one of Lakoff's classes in 1987 and found his work to be compelling. Metaphors We Live By should be required reading.

http://press.uchicago.edu/ucp/books/book/chicago/M/bo3637992...

Re:Reasons not to use (i.e., be used by) Facebook by ktRolster on Monday June 27, 2016 @02:17AM (#11984451)
He's the rockstar of the cogsci department at Berkeley but he's known as a massive ego and a poor professor.

I don't want to be harsh here, but it might be worth for you to consider that you were also a poor student.

Re:Reasons not to use (i.e., be used by) Facebook by cbHXBY1D on Sunday July 03, 2016 @07:55PM (#12028180)
Sure, it's a fair consideration. But before asking that question you should have just quickly googled some other student opinions.

http://www.ratemyprofessors.com/ShowRatings.jsp?tid=246554

Re:Reasons not to use (i.e., be used by) Facebook by creatonez on Sunday June 26, 2016 @11:27PM (#11984059)
I agree with you. Language is an incredibly important part of a social movement. When you strip away the orwellian-ness of terms, you expose the true meaning. Manipulating language like that just isn't the same thing as using slurs like "democrap". Terms like "useds" highlight an important part of the true nature of advertising companies like facebook, but terms like "democrap" are simply insults.
Re:Reasons not to use (i.e., be used by) Facebook by js2 on Sunday June 26, 2016 @05:54PM (#11982958)
Thank you both for your well-written arguments. This is the sort of commentary I come to HN to read.
Re:Reasons not to use (i.e., be used by) Facebook by waterhouse on Sunday June 26, 2016 @06:00PM (#11982979)
Arguably, the terms "copy protection", "digital rights management", "intellectual property", and probably a lot more that aren't on the top of my head are the result of, to quote the GP, "warping the very language they use to support their point"; but the groups in favor of these things were there first, and so they got to define the terminology that we've all ended up with.
Re:Reasons not to use (i.e., be used by) Facebook by jolux on Monday June 27, 2016 @05:27AM (#11985019)
This is probably just me but I think when they re-word things they choose the clumsiest and least-sexy possible words to put into the acronyms. Digital Restrictions Management is not only a mouthful, it's also obtuse and why bother when you could have something cool like Digital Rebel Management?

That being said, if your claim is that the acronyms as they existed do not accurately describe what's going on, I fundamentally disagree. What's copy protection? It's technology that protects against copying. Protection and restriction might as well be synonyms. What's DRM? It's technology that helps rights holders manage the rights they have to their intellectual property. What's intellectual property? It's like physical property, but it's ideas instead of objects. Intellectual property is never safe from the fair use exception, which is what protects what one might call the "free flow of ideas" and such. It's simply there to protect exploitation for financial gain.

Re:Reasons not to use (i.e., be used by) Facebook by waterhouse on Tuesday June 28, 2016 @12:42AM (#11991533)
What's copy protection? It's technology that protects against copying. The naive reading (as beagle3's store clerk said) would be that it's technology that protects a copy, or perhaps the process of copying. Protection and restriction might as well be synonyms. Unfortunately, you are right: the term "protection" has been routinely used to mean the forcible restriction of competitors from entering a market, as in "protectionism" and "monopoly protection".

The common theme here is that someone invented an abstract concept and applied a word to it that got its good connotations from the more concrete things it was usually applied to. Usually you can point to ways in which it betrays the original concept. In "copy-protection" and other kinds of business "protection", the thing being protected is not a business, or people, or property, but rather the ability of a particular group of businesses to make a profit doing what they're doing; the implementation of this "protection" may well involve sending police to forcibly shut down other businesses, arrest people, and confiscate property. For "intellectual property", the "right to the property" that the law enforces is not the right to the material integrity or full usage of anything physical; in fact, it's the privilege to prevent other people who have full ownership of physical objects from using them in certain particular ways. The digital "rights" are roughly the same: the right is not to own and have the full use of some digital object (which presumably means a group of bytes in memory or persistent storage somewhere), but in fact to prevent other people from possessing isomorphic digital objects.

The government can invent any kind of "exclusive right to do X", and make the privilege transferable. Then people can buy and sell it. Like taxi medallions. And then people can call it "property", which they "own", and the government "protects" their "right" to it. I think it's a debasement of the terms, which functions (deliberately or otherwise) to mislead the unwary into granting the practice legitimacy.

Re:Reasons not to use (i.e., be used by) Facebook by endgame on Sunday June 26, 2016 @10:37PM (#11983887)
As much as I agree with rms' philosophy, the word substitutions often feel like playground insults rather than useful rhetorical devices.

Digital Restrictions Management is about the only one that's really stuck: it's not contrived, it's more accurate and it fits the initialism.

Re:Reasons not to use (i.e., be used by) Facebook by EGreg on Sunday June 26, 2016 @05:44PM (#11982904)
Maybe one day Stallman will agree to use "Liberating Software" instead of the more confusing name "Free Software".
Re:Reasons not to use (i.e., be used by) Facebook by nathan_long on Monday June 27, 2016 @09:56AM (#11986155)
Trying to set the terms used in a political debate is incredibly common. In the abortion debate, the two sides call themselves "Pro Life" and "Pro Choice", which both sound good on the surface. Who wants to be anti-choice or anti-life?

The PATRIOT Act was not called the Increase Spying on Citizens Act, but perhaps it should have been.

The unfortunate fact is that if your political adversaries have already chosen a favorable-sounding, possibly-dishonest name for something, it's very hard to persuade people of your position while using the other side's terms.

Re:Reasons not to use (i.e., be used by) Facebook by baby on Sunday June 26, 2016 @10:27PM (#11983865)
> You are, indeed, used by facebook when you interact with it

But we're using it too. So maybe, "exchange" would be a better word? Although, with most of nowadays' apps (youtube, google, gmail, facebook, whatsapp, ...), the way they use "us" is really limited compared to the practicality they provide.

Re:Reasons not to use (i.e., be used by) Facebook by beagle3 on Monday June 27, 2016 @10:42AM (#11986435)
I am not using Facebook, but if it weren't for uBlock origin and friends, Facebook would be using me.
Re:Reasons not to use (i.e., be used by) Facebook by nsgi on Sunday June 26, 2016 @09:05PM (#11983643)
Still don't understand the problem with the terms in your second paragraph. Copy protection protects CDs from being copied. Digital rights management manages the rights of the IP owner. These are just as valid.

Then you have claiming Win32 is a subliminal message about winning rather than an abbreviation for Windows...

Re:Reasons not to use (i.e., be used by) Facebook by kartickv on Sunday June 26, 2016 @09:54PM (#11983779)
Copy protection doesn't protect the customer, nor does digital rights management help manage their rights. They are not benefits for the customer, only negatives.

When my bank charges me a fee, they call it a fee, not a bonus, though it's the latter from their point of view.

Re:Reasons not to use (i.e., be used by) Facebook by phamilton on Monday June 27, 2016 @12:36PM (#11987326)
Well... they call it overdraft protection, which is when they loan you money for a fee to cover a purchase that exceeds your balance.

In practice, instead of getting "Declined" and using a credit card instead, you end up paying $35 in order to borrow $1.

Re:Reasons not to use (i.e., be used by) Facebook by jolux on Monday June 27, 2016 @05:29AM (#11985021)
It does protect the customer though, at the very least it means their money was well spent and other people can't violate that social contract by taking what they want for free.
Re:Reasons not to use (i.e., be used by) Facebook by beagle3 on Monday June 27, 2016 @07:33AM (#11985491)
Personally, I don't feel any social contract is violated if someone else gets for free music that I paid money for.

Furthermore, it seems neither do many of the artists - most of them make their music available for free through e.g. YouTube.

And even if such a social contract existed, I suspect I would feel more harmed by the inability to format-shift the music I bought, than by someone else listening to the music without paying.

It is rare for two passengers on an airplane to pay the same rate even for the same seat and service class. Does this violate any social contract in your opinion? Obviously, the money was not wall spent by one of them.

Re:Reasons not to use (i.e., be used by) Facebook by jolux on Monday June 27, 2016 @05:05PM (#11989481)
Well no it doesn't, but that's generally because they had rewards with the airline or bought it in a deal somewhere. Both are legal ways to reduce the money you pay for things. As is streaming music these days. And I should emphasize I'm not against being able to crack DRM and I think it would be really bad to make uncrackable DRM. In my opinion DRM is not supposed to stop the people who would crack it anyways, it's the people who would try it just for the hell of it if it were easy. It's like why you put a lock on your house: it's not because it makes it impenetrable to burglars, it's because it keeps out 99% of the assholes who would just walk in if there was no door.
Re:Reasons not to use (i.e., be used by) Facebook by beagle3 on Monday June 27, 2016 @05:49PM (#11989800)
I still fail to see how I am better served because someone else cannot copy some music without a rights holder permission.
Re:Reasons not to use (i.e., be used by) Facebook by beagle3 on Monday June 27, 2016 @02:24AM (#11984469)
> Copy protection protects CDs from being copied

For 99.999% of the users, it restricts the user from copying the CD. And actually, the CD itself doesn't really care if it's copied, so the cd itself is not "protected" in any way. It provides some minimal protection to the rights owner from unauthorized copies (which are usually, but not necessarily illegal - c.f fair use).

Now, which terminology is more appropriate - that which describes the situation for essentially everyone involved (e.g. a billion people) or the rights holder (essentially less than 10 "people" if you count corporations as people)?

> Digital rights management manages the rights of the IP owner. These are just as valid.

Again, they are valid from the narrow point of view of 0.001% of the population, but INVALID and IRRELEVANT from the point of view of the rest.

"Copy Restriction" and "Digital Restriction Management" are factual and actually neutral. It is what these systems do. Whether this is good or bad depends on your point of view.

Similarly, it wasn't mentioned here, but stallman likes to refer to "Intellectual Property" as "Imaginary Property", which is also factual. I have yet to adopt this one, but I will only really accept "Intellectual Property" as property when it is taxed like property.

Re:Reasons not to use (i.e., be used by) Facebook by ppopoff on Sunday June 26, 2016 @10:03PM (#11983803)
I have mixed feelings about RMS's use of language, but I think you exactly illustrate beagle3's point. Perhaps they are just as valid, but if the contrasting term is just as valid and more in tune with your views, then you might object to the dominant term.

> Copy protection protects CDs from being copied.

The contention is of course with the word "protection." It implies that copying is a bad thing and that preventing copying is protection. It's a loaded word, even if in general use. Replacing with "restriction" challenges this this notion with a word loaded in the opposite direction.

> Digital rights management manages the rights of the IP owner.

The assumption here is that the restrictions on use are in fact "rights of the IP owner." There is no a priori reason that there should be. In fact IP rights are a part of law and public policy. That doesn't necessarily mean they should be; obviously Stallman and beagle3 disagree.

Re:Reasons not to use (i.e., be used by) Facebook by creatonez on Sunday June 26, 2016 @11:39PM (#11984092)
It's not that there's a problem with the real terms, it's that stallman's alternative terms better highlight the actual nature of the things he describes. Those phrases are quick substitutions with the potential to make someone think more about the topic. Simply getting people to think about a topic is important for a social movement.

If someone in 1984 had started coining alternative terms the way stallman does, the amount of thoughtcrimes would skyrocket.

Re:Reasons not to use (i.e., be used by) Facebook by markvdb on Monday June 27, 2016 @04:58AM (#11984941)
In a recent past, what is now commonly referred to as "ip" or "intellectual property" used to be described more accurately as intellectual rights.

Sorry, could not resist.

Re:Reasons not to use (i.e., be used by) Facebook by yuhong on Sunday June 26, 2016 @04:05PM (#11982430)
This reminds me of the "copy protect music" setting from WMP.
Re:Reasons not to use (i.e., be used by) Facebook by hanspeter on Monday June 27, 2016 @01:38AM (#11984366)
> You are, indeed, used by facebook when you interact with it

All HN useds already realize this. If this by it self is a reason not to use a service, very few sites can be used.

Re:Reasons not to use (i.e., be used by) Facebook by heroprotagonist on Monday June 27, 2016 @06:48AM (#11985308)
While there is some truth in that, it feels a little hyperbolic. Not all websites are equally abusive of their users. They don't all run their own tracking beacons or store, extrapolate and sell the same depth and quantity of personal information.
Re:Reasons not to use (i.e., be used by) Facebook by hanspeter on Monday June 27, 2016 @08:20AM (#11985671)
Not all but most of the major sites. I'd expect all of the top 25 sites on Alexa to be equally abusive with the exception of Wikipedia. The difference between most sites (excl. Google) and Facebook is that Facebook have more users and more usage. They're not more abusive, their tracking just reaches more users.

And please don't propagate the false notion that Facebook sell personal information.

Re:Reasons not to use (i.e., be used by) Facebook by majewsky on Monday June 27, 2016 @04:00AM (#11984751)
> If this by it self is a reason not to use a service, very few sites can be used.

Exactly.

Re:Reasons not to use (i.e., be used by) Facebook by wedesoft on Tuesday June 28, 2016 @06:03PM (#11997945)
Yes, if you control the language, you control the debate.