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Re:Housing in the Bay Area by s3r3nity on Wednesday May 25, 2016 @09:34PM (#11774608)
This is one of the top factors preventing me from moving back to the Bay Area. It's good to know there's at least SOME serious attempt at a solution (even if folks around here are mostly pessimistic.)

It still surprises me that an industry that's all about connecting the world through the internet and allowing anyone to work with anyone else on anything says "yeah but you need to work in this small area of the country to do it."

The armchair economist in me says that high housing prices in the Bay Area will cause a market "correction" of sorts with other cities exploding as tech sectors -- see NY, Boston, Chicago, Austin, Las Vegas -- as those cities can get away with much better housing for cheap, even if the opportunities aren't as plentiful (yet.)

<conspiracy theory> The cynic in me likes to think that VC's and other wealthy tech execs are trying to keep housing prices high by artificially creating this in-elasticity ("you can have my funding if you live in SF" or "we don't allow remote workers"), as they all probably own houses in the area; the incentives for them would be to have housing prices keep rising, NOT fall, as they would lose significant real-estate equity. </conspiracy theory>

Re:Housing in the Bay Area by galdosdi on Thursday May 26, 2016 @12:57AM (#11775560)
I think NYC is already there. It's so easy to find a tech job in NYC. Maybe it's even easier in SV, but I've never missed not being in SV. There's such a variety here. Plenty of startups, all the tech giants, and plenty of tech/IT jobs at "regular" companies, consulting opportunities, etc... And it's not _just_ tech -- plenty of other industries are headquartered in NYC. By contrast I can't think of any other industries that SV is the flagship metro-area of besides tech... If software is going to eat the world, it helps to have some of those industries you're going to disrupt nearby already.

I'd love to see NYC co-opt SV as the world capital of the tech industry, and I think it could totally happen. The only thing SV has going is historical inertia, and it's eroding. This housing problem in SV is going to make it erode faster.

Honestly I don't understand SV at all. They say NYC has a housing cost problem, and it sure does, but it's nothing compared to SV -- in SV you have people paying Manhattan prices so they can live in SF... yet somehow still commuting an hour to the suburbs where the offices are! At least here you can either pay Manhattan prices and get a 10 minute commute for it -- or take an hour-long commute and at least get a much cheaper and/or larger place in exchange. And your commute won't require you to drive, unless you want that.

NB: I've never lived in the SV area so maybe I have some misconceptions that need correcting? :-)

Re:Housing in the Bay Area by cloudjacker on Thursday May 26, 2016 @01:40AM (#11775777)
so I've lived in both.

The size of the campuses in Silicon Valley literally cannot fit in NYC. No comparison.

Its fantastic that Google bought a block of Manhattan for 1 billion dollars, but Google's Mountain View campus is ALL of Mountain View. These are sprawling districts that cannot fit inside of a skyscraper.

The next fundamental difference is the variety of VCs. NYC cannot replicate this, and there is nothing eroding about it. NYC has one or two VCs looking at the same industry trends. Silicon Valley has many VCs interested in completely different things, different portfolio niches.

NYC has variety of industries and conveniences.

Silicon Valley doesn't even know how backwards its infrastructure is, while trying to change a world that functions better than it does already.

San Francisco masquerades as Silicon Valley and an international city but it is neither. New York, London and Hong Kong are international cities, SF struggles to keep up with the tech bubbles that it remains on the periphery of and only recently gained relevance for.

There is more tech focused stuff in SF and Silicon Valley, but New York has enough satellite offices to keep you occupied.

Re:Housing in the Bay Area by CalRobert on Thursday May 26, 2016 @04:39PM (#11781368)
"These are sprawling districts that cannot fit inside of a skyscraper."

Is that a definite? I mean, most of Mountain View and its tech campuses are sprawling suburbia (e.g. vast fields of asphalt and grass with a building sprinkled here and there). It's amazing what can fit in a well-designed commercial district.

Re:Housing in the Bay Area by cloudjacker on Thursday May 26, 2016 @05:27PM (#11781785)
That got me curious and I think you might be onto something:

Google employs 19,000 people in Mountain View currently

The Twin Towers in NYC each held 25,000 people on a daily basis.

Two buildings in NYC could accommodate the populations of two tech giants that sprawl across entire south bay towns. So several of NYC's average sized and planned skyscrapers could do a fine job. And there is room every direction away from Midtown Manhattan to replicate new robust building clusters.

Re:Housing in the Bay Area by nojvek on Thursday May 26, 2016 @11:24PM (#11783696)
To be honest I am always amazed how many homeless folks and dirty the place is. You hear billion dollar raises all the time but the city seems very fragmented. Vancouver on the other hand is insanely expensive but very well put together.
Re:Housing in the Bay Area by dmode on Thursday May 26, 2016 @01:08AM (#11775614)
NYC is far far far way from overtaking SV as the capital of tech industry. The combined value of just Google, Apple, and Facebook is $1.3 trillion dollars. To reach that scale will take many many years and some incredible companies. Honestly, places that can put in a serious competition to SV are in Asia - China and India. Chinese tech companies are raising massive rounds, with multiple billion dollar investments in 2016. Also, most successful hubs are often one industry towns. Think Detroit and Houston. That's how clusters are formed and they have a self full-filing effect. But it is also a mistake to think SV is just a "tech" hub. Is Tesla a tech company ? Or is Sunrun a tech company ? Are Impossible Foods or Bolt Threads tech companies ? Technology is now integral to any industry. And increasingly we are seeing R&D shops being set-up in the valley to stay ahead of the game
Re:Housing in the Bay Area by galdosdi on Thursday May 26, 2016 @01:40AM (#11775773)
Thank you, great comment!

> The combined value of just Google, Apple, and Facebook is $1.3 trillion dollars.

Well, to the extent that those three companies have employees in other cities, I'd count their market caps proportionally towards those cities. I'm not sure offhand about Apple or FB but Google has a huge office in NYC. But that still leaves the vast majority in SV.

> Also, most successful hubs are often one industry towns. Think Detroit and Houston.

Ominous and timely comparisons. One-industry towns are also way more vulnerable in the long run. NYC is actually a counterexample -- it is the industry hub for at least three industries (finance, fashion, advertising) and leads or has a strong presence in many others, and it's been that way for a long time.

> But it is also a mistake to think SV is just a "tech" hub.

If being close to other members of the industry you are "disrupting" with tech is useful, then that is a huge advantage for a city like NYC with a wide variety of industry. But maybe that's not that necessary -- maybe Tesla would not get much advantage out of being in Detroit near other automakers. If that's the case then a city like NYC does not have any special advantage there.

Re:Housing in the Bay Area by dmode on Thursday May 26, 2016 @01:58PM (#11780099)
Yeah true that Google, Apple, FB have NY offices, but all of these companies are very HQ focused. Especially Apple and Alphabet, with most of Alphabet's based are based in SV (Calico, Verily, YouTube etc.). Apple is also notoriously Cupertino centric.
Re:Housing in the Bay Area by shin_lao on Thursday May 26, 2016 @02:07AM (#11775904)
I believe all three named companies (Google, Apple and Facebook) have significantly large offices in NYC.

Then you'd have to count Wall Street, which for a great part are big software companies as well.

Re:Housing in the Bay Area by gorkemyurt on Thursday May 26, 2016 @01:14AM (#11775640)
Yea so the problem is you can't think of tech as one industry. Every company that's being created right now has to involve software one way or the other. That's why companies like Tesla (auto), Netlfix (entertainment), Solarcity (energy), Sofi (finance), airbnb (tourism), uber (logistics), tons of biomedical companies that I don't know the names of (medicine) all headquartered in the bay area.
Re:Housing in the Bay Area by kbenson on Wednesday May 25, 2016 @09:53PM (#11774669)
> The cynic in me likes to think that VC's and other wealthy tech execs are trying to keep housing prices high by artificially creating this in-elasticity

I think the benefits of more people meeting, networking, and starting new things in the area vastly outweighs their interest in their homes. It's not like this really affects the pricing of mansions much anyway, and if they aren't living in a mansion, it's probably such a small amount of their overall wealth that it's inconsequential.

Re:Housing in the Bay Area by brc on Wednesday May 25, 2016 @09:49PM (#11774652)
It's a good theory but I think the investors are pretty straight-up about wanting their companies on a short leash.

The key will be those other cities/hubs having their own successes, bringing in the capital and expertise to nurture new talent. It's likely that the number of successful hubs that can be supported is pretty low. I happen to believe that the amount of (awful word) synergy needed to flip a few percent of startups from fail/borderline to success is pretty high. In other words, all those know-a-guy-who-can-help connections have to have a high concentration before it starts to pay off.

But then mine is just a theory as well and has a high chance of being wrong.

Re:Housing in the Bay Area by pm90 on Thursday May 26, 2016 @12:02AM (#11775302)
Its true but its not limited to SF/Bay Area. I had the impression the other day that city-specific industries are much like Universities; so you see that MIT, Berkeley etc. that had CS dept's early on now have the best programs in CS. So it is with cities: the tech industry was born in Silicon Valley so of course there are a lot of Software/EE engineers out there.
Re:Housing in the Bay Area by nostrebored on Wednesday May 25, 2016 @10:42PM (#11774927)
Somehow the city with the highest average salary/cost of living usually goes unmentioned... Seattle has two huge tech companies, a lot of mid sized tech companies, and a growing startup scene... and it's not that far away from the bay.
Re:Housing in the Bay Area by seanmcdirmid on Wednesday May 25, 2016 @11:07PM (#11775071)
It rains too much, like 14 months per year is just rain. And the Seattle freeze...ya, people in Seattle don't like to talk to other people, it is like Northern Europe. /s

We've always made up crazy lies just to keep the Californians away, but ultimately it isn't working. Seattle is a nice place to live/work, and has plenty of jobs for techies.

Re:Housing in the Bay Area by dclowd9901 on Thursday May 26, 2016 @12:28AM (#11775436)
My experience with people in the bay is most are superficial and make their identity around either their careers or that they live in San Francisco. Pretty insufferable group compared to the "freeze" in Seattle. Also, believe it or not, some people actually like when it rains all the time, especially people who came from very sunny (and drought-y) climes. It's nice not having to worry about water rationing. Frankly, constant sunshine drives me batty.

I split the difference and ended up in Portland.

Re:Housing in the Bay Area by seanmcdirmid on Thursday May 26, 2016 @01:02AM (#11775584)
Living in Beijing now, I would die for more rain. Ok, just having more clean air would be a nice start.

I was born in Portland when it was bigger than Seattle (after the early 70s Boeing bust, and when Intel/Tektronix was picking up). How times have changed...

Re:Housing in the Bay Area by rand1012 on Thursday May 26, 2016 @03:59AM (#11776372)
San Francisco is not the whole bay.
Re:Housing in the Bay Area by meddlepal on Thursday May 26, 2016 @12:24AM (#11775408)
As a Bostonian none of this rain or cold stuff bothers me. Visiting Seattle for the first time next month for DockerCon and I'm super excited!
Re:Housing in the Bay Area by mc32 on Thursday May 26, 2016 @12:44AM (#11775506)
It's not very cold at all --it might snow a couple of times a year --it drizzles 6 months out of the year, but it's okay. OP was putting a front hence the "/s"
Re:Housing in the Bay Area by elliotec on Wednesday May 25, 2016 @11:05PM (#11775050)
I'm calling BS. Where's your source that Seattle has the highest average salary to cost of living?
Re:Housing in the Bay Area by pyrophane on Thursday May 26, 2016 @08:59AM (#11777548)
Good instinct. The housing prices, while still pretty good, are going up fast, and unless you work for MS or Amamzon, I'm not sure the salaries are really that amazing.
Re:Housing in the Bay Area by c_c_c on Wednesday May 25, 2016 @11:28PM (#11775160)
Seattle isn't in the top ten on any list in either of these categories. Doesn't mean it isn't great there but that's not what your saying.
Re:Housing in the Bay Area by s3r3nity on Thursday May 26, 2016 @01:03AM (#11775592)
I LOVE Seattle! Though research and folks I talk to say it's expensive to live there. Maybe I'm getting the wrong info!
Re:Housing in the Bay Area by joeskyyy on Thursday May 26, 2016 @01:09AM (#11775617)
All depends on where you live. If you're trying to raise a family, you definitely have to live in the burbs and commute in.

I pay $1850 a month for a 496 sq ft "Open" one bedroom. It's basically a studio with a wall that segments off my bedroom.

Which is more than fine for me :D Get to live downtown, get to walk to work, walk to bars, etc. But if you wanted an average 3br/2ba apartment, you're probably looking in the $3500+/mo. And buying is so competitive right now it's insane.

Re:Housing in the Bay Area by nostrebored on Friday May 27, 2016 @04:41PM (#11788838)
I live in Queen Anne in a 1000 sq ft 2br for $1850 a month. It's really not that bad. Even in the core of Capitol Hill when I was looking a few months ago I saw places for 1650/mo for 700 sqft non-studio.
Re:Housing in the Bay Area by akhilcacharya on Wednesday May 25, 2016 @11:47PM (#11775243)
All of the Big 4 are there :)

I just hope housing there is affordable without a roommate by the time I can graduate.

Re:Housing in the Bay Area by dmode on Thursday May 26, 2016 @01:10AM (#11775627)
Seattle is not that cheap. Decent houses in good suburbs easily approach a million dollars.
Re:Housing in the Bay Area by surfmike on Thursday May 26, 2016 @01:55AM (#11775852)
You cannot buy a decent house in a good suburb on the SF peninsula for a million dollars.
Re:Housing in the Bay Area by loeg on Wednesday May 25, 2016 @10:59PM (#11775017)
Shhh, we're trying to keep it a secret. :)
Re:Housing in the Bay Area by incepted on Wednesday May 25, 2016 @11:40PM (#11775212)
On top of the weather, which is a big deal to a lot of people, the problem is exactly in what you said: there are two huge tech companies. And that's it.

Basically, if you move to Seattle, you are pretty much restricted to working for Microsoft or Amazon and that's it. Period. Nothing else.

It's a huge career limiting move, make sure you're okay with it.

Re:Housing in the Bay Area by joeskyyy on Thursday May 26, 2016 @12:45AM (#11775513)
Microsoft and Amazon only you say? Don't know where you'd get that data from.

Google has a big campus here in Fremont and Kirkland, and they're building a huge new complex in South Lake Union (Amazon's stomping grounds).

Facebook just opened their brand new office in SLU.

Samsung is here. Adobe is here. Atlassian is here. Uber is here. DocuSign is here.

Expand the metro area to Bellevue (since we included Microsoft above) add companies like Redfin, Zillow, Expedia, FICO, Disney.

Edit: Oh yeah, forgot Intel and EMC as well.

I'm sure there's many I missed but there's WAY more than just Microsoft and Amazon.

... Just don't tell anyone. Go to Portland instead. I hear they want you ;)

Re:Housing in the Bay Area by bunkat on Wednesday May 25, 2016 @11:56PM (#11775272)
There are a couple of other companies here that didn't make your list... not including the pretty active startup scene. Sure it's not any near as vibrant as around San Francisco but to say there are only two tech companies hiring people is pretty ludicrous.
Re:Housing in the Bay Area by jly on Wednesday May 25, 2016 @11:58PM (#11775289)
I'm not from Seattle nor do I live in Seattle, but I'm pretty sure this is not the case.

There ARE other cities with a lot of quality, diverse tech jobs outside of the Bay Area. I live in one of them and I don't consider it a 'career limiting move'.

Re:Housing in the Bay Area by BurningFrog on Wednesday May 25, 2016 @11:31PM (#11775174)
VCs can make millions from owning houses.

They can make billions from funding startups.

Re:Housing in the Bay Area by blazespin on Thursday May 26, 2016 @12:23AM (#11775396)
The keyword is "can". What's the expected value of investing in a startup versus real estate?
Re:Housing in the Bay Area by rcpt on Wednesday May 25, 2016 @11:58PM (#11775290)
Why not both?
Re:Housing in the Bay Area by vctheory on Thursday May 26, 2016 @12:04AM (#11775317)
By increasing the most substantial cost that startups face, VCs end up owning larger portions of each startup.
Re:Housing in the Bay Area by jdminhbg on Thursday May 26, 2016 @01:08AM (#11775613)
Is this anything like my plan to invest in McDonalds franchises and then kill off a huge proportion of the world's cattle to "own larger portions" of each?