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Re:Four hundred miles with Tesla’s autopilot forced me to tr... by daveguy on Wednesday May 25, 2016 @07:29PM (#11774009)
Having emergency braking turn off in the event of a manual brake tap is definitely a failure on Tesla's part. Emergency braking should not only not turn off it should brake harder (to the expected traction limit) and then, of course, engage abs if the traction limit is exceeded. Emergency braking should be on unless explicitly disabled (just like abs and traction control are auto on in cars that have them).
Re:Four hundred miles with Tesla’s autopilot forced me to tr... by joshuak on Wednesday May 25, 2016 @11:15PM (#11775101)
> Having emergency braking turn off in the event of a manual brake tap is definitely a failure on Tesla's part.

Yes, but the failure mode is not so easy to see prior to use. It's due to how humans react to the new feature itself, not because it's a bad feature, or a misunderstanding about how users 'normally' react. User's may incorrectly anticipate a behavior (such as in this case), or they may expect the feature to fail so unnecessarily take control (cause of some airline disasters).

This is a general problem of computer human interaction. I'd say it falls under the discipline of UX design. Knowing that breaking is an automatic reaction should be a clue that it will make it a poor mechanism to understand user intent. You then know that you should be looking at other mechanisms to more accurately capture user intent.

- Perhaps the auto-breaking feature should have better defaults such err towards enabling rather than err towards disabling.

- Perhaps the control for toggling auto-breaking should not also be the breaking mechanism itself.

- Perhaps context is now relevant, and user input should be interpreted differently when auto-breaking is on and there is an immanent collision.

I think it's important to pay special attention when making any interface change to a well established user behavior, and acknowledge that new behavior leads to unstable and unreliable input. In these cases put extra effort into finding the path of least cognitive burden when the accuracy of user input is the most critical (i.e. immanent collision) even at the expense of adding cognitive burden elsewhere.

Cognitive burden is a critical consideration in all system design from airplanes to cell phones, but tragically is often overlooked.

Re:Four hundred miles with Tesla’s autopilot forced me to tr... by rdtsc on Thursday May 26, 2016 @12:30AM (#11775445)
> It's due to how humans react to the new feature itself, not because it's a bad feature, or a misunderstanding about how users 'normally' react.

It is not easy but it should be done. Keeping a car steadily between lanes is not easy either, or take self driving cars that is hard. Besides, research into some of this has already been done with aircraft and pilots.

> It's due to how humans react to the new feature itself, not because it's a bad feature, or a misunderstanding about how users 'normally' react.

It is a bad feature. Feature doesn't exist in a void, it exists only because humans are using it. "Human presses the brakes, what to do next?" is a feature with a human in the loop.

> Cognitive burden is a critical consideration in all system design from airplanes to cell phones, but tragically is often overlooked.

Exactly. Moreover "mode confusion" (human not understanding what mode the aircraft autopilots or other systems are in, and then reacting assuming a different mode) is a common cause of crashes.

There were tools and studies specifically geared towards mode confusion:

http://shemesh.larc.nasa.gov/fm/fm-now-mode-confusion.html

Asiana 214 is a recent example of pilot assuming the autothrottle was on, but it wasn't, so plane crashed. It is a bit like here, the user assumed Tesla would slow down some but then stay in the automatic mode.

Re:Four hundred miles with Tesla’s autopilot forced me to tr... by bobwaycott on Thursday May 26, 2016 @08:52AM (#11777509)
I believe you mean auto-braking, not auto-breaking, in all the instances you used the term, right? That is, we want the vehicle to brake, but not break.
Re:Four hundred miles with Tesla’s autopilot forced me to tr... by joshuak on Thursday May 26, 2016 @05:24PM (#11781760)
So you're saying my subliminal messaging was too obvious? ;)
Re:Four hundred miles with Tesla’s autopilot forced me to tr... by beamatronic on Wednesday May 25, 2016 @07:35PM (#11774032)
>> Emergency braking should be on unless explicitly disabled

I'm trying to think of a scenario outside of a mechanic's garage that emergency braking would ever be disabled. This should really be mandatory on all cars.

Re:Four hundred miles with Tesla’s autopilot forced me to tr... by Animats on Wednesday May 25, 2016 @11:35PM (#11775196)
It's surprising that Tesla made that choice.

BMW's anti-collision system is on even during manual driving.[1] BMW will brake even if the driver is pressing the accelerator. So will Volvo. Top Gear compares the various systems as of 2015.[2] Volvo did best; Mercedes didn't stop soon enough and hit the dummy car. VW's city car only does this up to 18MPH.

Maybe Tesla has a false-alarm problem that BMW and Volvo have overcome.

More to the point, this behavior needs to be standardized, or people shifting from one car to another will do the wrong thing. The National Transportation Safety Board is working on this.[3] In a few years, anti-collision may be as standard as anti-skid is now.

[1] http://www.theverge.com/2015/1/5/7494989/bmw-i3-self-parking... [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PzHM6PVTjXo [3] http://www.ntsb.gov/safety/safety-recs/recletters/H-15-008-0...

Re:Four hundred miles with Tesla’s autopilot forced me to tr... by sundvor on Thursday May 26, 2016 @02:24AM (#11775978)
I love, love, love the dynamic cruise control on my 2014 Mazda 3 Astina. I stretched my budget for this, our 2nd car, as I was dead set on getting next generation safety features. Got an ex demo manual, couldn't be happier with the overall package.

Even though my car is a 6sp manual, the automatic distance keeping is making the commute much more relaxing. I can't recommend it enough.

Funnily enough the radar system is separate to the AEB, which uses cameras. AEB stands for automatic / autonomous emergency braking.

As I'm someone who likes to know how stuff works, especially in cars for familiarity should a real event occur, I did set out to experience how AEB works. I rigged some large but light cardboard boxes, reversed down the road a bit, accelerated quickly to around 40 km/h, kept the throttle pedal steady as though if to drive through them.

All times, although it felt like surely it wouldn't, the car intervened at the very last second. The first time it drove through them by a metre. The next two times the car stopped before impact. System uses 100% brake force engaging the ABS and also putting on the hazard lights for good measure.

I came out highly impressed. It ought to pick up cars better, but I'm not about to actively try that.

Re:Four hundred miles with Tesla’s autopilot forced me to tr... by superuser2 on Wednesday May 25, 2016 @08:37PM (#11774324)
In some urban environments it is necessary to nudge very slowly through pedestrian crossings to thread through gaps; if the car brakes at the sight of any perceived obstacle and waits for a totally clear right of way, there are certain crosswalks and right turns in Chicago you will not pass for several hours.
Re:Four hundred miles with Tesla’s autopilot forced me to tr... by Dylan16807 on Thursday May 26, 2016 @02:56AM (#11776113)
Well if you're going under 5mph then it's not really 'emergency braking' any more.
Re:Four hundred miles with Tesla’s autopilot forced me to tr... by function_seven on Thursday May 26, 2016 @01:10AM (#11775625)
Good point. For those situations, there should be a separate override button to disable the feature, just like there often is one for traction control (on normally, button lights up when disabled). Or for the passenger airbag back before weight sensors replaced a manual override.

But otherwise, even when in manual driving mode, the emergency brake feature should be active and watching for impending collisions.

Re:Four hundred miles with Tesla’s autopilot forced me to tr... by eru on Thursday May 26, 2016 @02:27AM (#11775993)
Just make the emergency brakes kick in only above 5km/h?
Re:Four hundred miles with Tesla’s autopilot forced me to tr... by will_hughes on Thursday May 26, 2016 @02:19AM (#11775953)
It is, but if when it starts braking you press the brake pedal, it turns off under the assumption that you want to manage braking.
Re:Four hundred miles with Tesla’s autopilot forced me to tr... by function_seven on Thursday May 26, 2016 @03:28AM (#11776243)
That's why it should be a separate button, so that it never assumes you want to manage braking unless you specifically turn the system off. Just pressing the brake pedal doesn't mean you want automatic braking to go away.
Re:Four hundred miles with Tesla’s autopilot forced me to tr... by Ntrails on Thursday May 26, 2016 @05:29AM (#11776670)
> I'm trying to think of a scenario outside of a mechanic's garage that emergency braking would ever be disabled. This should really be mandatory on all cars.

So there's an accident, and I swerve to avoid. I think I'm going to make it but the car isn't certain so it brakes, and it brakes really fucking hard. At this point who is responsible for what happens? Breaking like that fundamentally changes the behaviour of the car. If I had just braked, maybe I stop in time maybe I don't - I chose another option and it is completely valid.

The very idea of that kind of behaviour terrifies me. I'll take a 100% automated car with pleasure, but I have no interest at all in this hybrid control concept. I would turn that shit off on delivery.

Re:Four hundred miles with Tesla’s autopilot forced me to tr... by sangnoir on Thursday May 26, 2016 @09:12AM (#11777610)
> So there's an accident, and I swerve to avoid. I think I'm going to make it but the car isn't certain so it brakes, and it brakes really fucking hard. At this point who is responsible for what happens?

I'm having problems understanding your scenario. How exactly does the car breaking prevent you from swerving? The brakes should only stop your car mid-swerve, and you wouldn't collide. The only scenario when speed is an advantage when swerving is when you're trying to needle into an opening in the next lane and you need to match the speed of a 3rd car

Re:Four hundred miles with Tesla’s autopilot forced me to tr... by daveguy on Thursday May 26, 2016 @10:26AM (#11778161)
When swerving you should not apply the brake. It will cause you to lose control in the swerve.
Re:Four hundred miles with Tesla’s autopilot forced me to tr... by Kadin on Thursday May 26, 2016 @11:59AM (#11778986)
Not with a decent ABS system, and all the cars that have automatic braking have pretty good ABS.
Re:Four hundred miles with Tesla’s autopilot forced me to tr... by marvin on Thursday May 26, 2016 @12:18PM (#11779159)
Braking uses all the traction between your tires and the road to slow down your car, and you will be unable to turn. In the case of ABS, you will turn at a slower rate than if you hadn't been braking.
Re:Four hundred miles with Tesla’s autopilot forced me to tr... by ctdonath on Wednesday May 25, 2016 @08:17PM (#11774225)
Which promptly trains all drivers into a "meh" attitude toward braking, leaving it to the computer, and then surprised into paralysis (and subsequent crash) when it doesn't work.
Re:Four hundred miles with Tesla’s autopilot forced me to tr... by m_mueller on Wednesday May 25, 2016 @09:25PM (#11774561)
law of unintended consequences. I can even imagine a net increase in accidents until the technology is mature enough to actually take over full responsibility. So far all of the assistive technologies were straightforward to understand and control - by that I mean ABS, ESP, velocity keeping, and autobraking. You were never tempted to think that the car will drive for you with these. But the moment you add lane keeping and take over the steering wheel, there's no immediate obligation to pay attention anymore. It's deep in the uncanny valley and I'll have none of it until we have fully autonomous cars.
Re:Four hundred miles with Tesla’s autopilot forced me to tr... by kalleboo on Thursday May 26, 2016 @04:59AM (#11776579)
Another user linked a Fifth Gear video testing the auto-braking systems in Volvo/Mercedes/VW cars. In it, they say the auto-braking systems only engage by braking hard at the last second specifically so you don't get blasé about it as if it were a smooth controlled braking. It's not a mode you want to use because it really feels like you're going to crash. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PzHM6PVTjXo
Re:Four hundred miles with Tesla’s autopilot forced me to tr... by LoSboccacc on Thursday May 26, 2016 @05:06AM (#11776603)
that's interesting, I can see the reasoning behind, but what happens on a slippery road?
Re:Four hundred miles with Tesla’s autopilot forced me to tr... by jsight on Wednesday May 25, 2016 @09:57PM (#11774683)
That sounds like exactly what happened in the crash scenario. The driver tapped the break, said "meh, the car will handle it" and then plowed into the car in front of them.

I'm pretty leery of these systems at the moment due to people using them like this. That's just not what they are ready for at the moment and people's unrealistic expectations are leading them down dangerous paths.

Re:Four hundred miles with Tesla’s autopilot forced me to tr... by nlawalker on Wednesday May 25, 2016 @11:25PM (#11775154)
Is this not basically what Autopilot is doing for driving in general?
Re:Four hundred miles with Tesla’s autopilot forced me to tr... by espadrine on Thursday May 26, 2016 @06:13AM (#11776823)
Humans can be trained into not having surprise paralysis, for instance, through a simulation. It can be part of the requirements for driving permits.
Re:Four hundred miles with Tesla’s autopilot forced me to tr... by startling on Wednesday May 25, 2016 @07:41PM (#11774059)
fog / rain / low visibility (potentially fooling the sensor into thinking there's an object in front of you), cars behind you?
Re:Four hundred miles with Tesla’s autopilot forced me to tr... by beamatronic on Wednesday May 25, 2016 @07:43PM (#11774067)
That raises an interesting question: It is 2016, do we ( or do we not ) currently have economically feasible technology to place into cars that can reliably and accurately determine when you are about to hit a solid object or not?
Re:Four hundred miles with Tesla’s autopilot forced me to tr... by mapt on Wednesday May 25, 2016 @08:30PM (#11774286)
Define "Solid object".

In the lab, opaque textured objects in sufficient lighting are pretty easy to localize by a variety of methods. Reflective objects are quite a lot harder, but there are methods that work. Reflective objects through distortion like rain/fog... harder, but often doable. In low light? Depends.

The weird thing with environment modelling in computer vision is that there are a lot of overlapping methods, but sensor fusion of these methods is rarely attempted. Most robots end up with a pair of laser rangefinders or a pair of cameras or something equally simple to program. Creating a high-reliability automated vehicle that can bypass all the edge cases where these things fail is another thing entirely. You want overlapping, inter-reinforcing models of the world, with algorithms that not only identify items in a well-calibrated system, but calibrate the system in real time based on items identified.

My lab was really excited about replacing stereoscopic computer vision with monocular computer vision for 3D modelling, but the opposite direction is where you want to go if you care about as many 9's of reliability as possible and hardware is cheap. You want a few dozen cameras with fixed orientation, you want parallax laser rangefinders in a variety of bands, you want time of travel LIDAR units, you want a {GPS + 3DoF gyroscope + 3DoF magnetometer + 3 DoF accelerometer + barometer + thermometer}†, you want ultrasonic and radar rangefinders; You want everything you can get. You want enough lenses that if one gets obscured by water, hey, there are others that will pick up the slack, and do it without bothering the driver.

You want to shrink the 'no coverage of object in environment' surface as small as possible.

Nobody seems to respect this on the academic software side. Novelty, sure, but people don't seem to earn grants publishing extra 9's using a mashup of a bunch of pricy sensors. 'Less is more' is not how you get the data needed to make things reliable, it's how you get best-case detection rather than worst-case awareness.

†This combination is now found in quadrotor IMUs. Each individual sensor is inaccurate enough that it would be useless for automation, but combine them to check each other's deficits and you get a remarkably elegant system.

Re:Four hundred miles with Tesla’s autopilot forced me to tr... by Animats on Wednesday May 25, 2016 @11:41PM (#11775214)
Where the solid object is a car or truck, yes. Phased array radar is good enough for that, and there are lots of deployed units on the road. Telephone poles, deer, and pedestrians - maybe.
Re:Four hundred miles with Tesla’s autopilot forced me to tr... by shalmanese on Wednesday May 25, 2016 @10:47PM (#11774949)
The canonical example would be a plastic bag on the freeway.
Re:Four hundred miles with Tesla’s autopilot forced me to tr... by slacka on Thursday May 26, 2016 @12:08AM (#11775333)
The point is any anti-collision system should be smart enough to tell the difference between a car and a bag. It should NEVER let you plow into another car just because you tapped the brake. It shouldn't even matter if autopilot is on or off. Only if this was a child or animal, could I see the bag argument.

Also, it was a UI failure not notifying the driver clearly that auto-pilot has disengaged. Even the primitive cruise control in my car has a big green light, that turns off when you tap the break. The more autonomous a car is, the more important it is to clearly notify the driver of control handoff.

Re:Four hundred miles with Tesla’s autopilot forced me to tr... by gambiting on Thursday May 26, 2016 @03:58AM (#11776367)
Well of course, but there are always edge cases. Large rock, or a football? A person, vs. a cardboard cutout of a person? An empty plastic bag, vs. heavy bag with clearly something in it? A human can instantly tell the difference between all three, but for a computer to do it you would need some extremely good image recognition(in the case of a loaded bag the problem becomes near impossible, it's hard enough to just recognize something as a bag, being able to tell if it's weighted requires spatial awareness that no one proposed how to solve yet). In the meantime out best of the best image recognition software can't tell a zebra and a sofa in a zebra print apart. So for now, while we wait for the algorithms to improve, there should always be an easy (with an emphasis on easy) way to disable automatic breaking.
Re:Four hundred miles with Tesla’s autopilot forced me to tr... by kqr on Thursday May 26, 2016 @05:48AM (#11776732)
Granted, ABS invalidates the following argument a little, but not entirely. The traditional wisdom when faced with bad road conditions and an impending accident is that maintaining control through steering is much preferable to braking, which lowers the speed with which you can manoeuvre out of the situation.

It all depends so much on various variables so I find it hard to categorically say "it should always be on."

Re:Four hundred miles with Tesla’s autopilot forced me to tr... by gambiting on Thursday May 26, 2016 @03:53AM (#11776344)
You are going 80mph on a motorway, and a large shopping bag blows into your way - having the car do an emergency stop in that situation would be extremely dangerous, so a gentle tap on the brake to tell that car "yes, I am in control of the situation, there is an obstacle in front but I don't mind hitting it" is the only solution.
Re:Four hundred miles with Tesla’s autopilot forced me to tr... by PeterisP on Thursday May 26, 2016 @12:37PM (#11779329)
Signalling the car "yes, I'm in control" is a good and only solution, however, tapping the brakes is (a) definitely not the only way to signal that; (b) not a intuitive way to do that if you really want to make this signal but aren't sure how; (c) not a safe interpretation, as it's likely that people will tap the brake with other intent than the signal "it's ok, I got this".

An appropriate way to signal it would be distinct from any emergency controls and also show a highly visible signal that you've turned the system off and are in a different "mode"; even a simple separate dashboard switch with a light would be better for it than the brake pedal.

Re:Four hundred miles with Tesla’s autopilot forced me to tr... by orasis on Thursday May 26, 2016 @09:54PM (#11783357)
I can think of two top of mind.

A deer crossing the road in icy conditions. Its better to hit the deer than lose control.

a large tumble weed blowing across the road with someone tail gating you.

Re:Four hundred miles with Tesla’s autopilot forced me to tr... by ben_jones on Wednesday May 25, 2016 @08:00PM (#11774160)
I would not want to write that if statement.