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Re:Can Multilingualism Survive?: How cities preserve and aba... by timthelion on Sunday May 15, 2016 @05:46PM (#11702920)
In my experience, every langauge is broken into two dialectual parts:

1. The formal communications dialect 2. The bedroom + dinner table dialect

People who live in a european contry may notice that the formal dialect of their native langauge is dissapearing, and even, that many new concepts cannot be expressed in their native toung. But that doesn't mean that the bedroom + dinner table aspect of their langauge is going away. Germans don't have tummy aches, neither do Czechs. But both, "compile" their software and both preform a "git commit".

Re:Can Multilingualism Survive?: How cities preserve and aba... by Typhon on Sunday May 15, 2016 @06:15PM (#11703024)
It's much more complicated than that, and unless you know french, I doubt you'd guess what a "logiciel" is or an "ordinateur".

Furthermore, there is no such thing as a "concept that cannot be expressed" in a language. More often than not when people say a language has "no word for X", they turn out to be wrong, and even when they're right, the concept can be expressed through paraphrase.

Re:Can Multilingualism Survive?: How cities preserve and aba... by Swizec on Sunday May 15, 2016 @07:20PM (#11703245)
There are many concepts in many languages that cannot be expressed in another language with the same connotations and subtext.

That's why we have loanwords.

Why else would a bouquet not be called "a bunch of flowers". Because a bunch of flowers is something different than a bouquet.

Re:Can Multilingualism Survive?: How cities preserve and aba... by hermannj314 on Sunday May 15, 2016 @07:28PM (#11703281)
We call them floral arrangements in the midwest United States, not "bunch[es] of flowers". We also call them bouquets, nevertheless, I think the English language can handle that one just fine.
Re:Can Multilingualism Survive?: How cities preserve and aba... by csydas on Sunday May 15, 2016 @07:58PM (#11703377)
I think what the above poster was referring to was the cultural connotations that are immediately invoked by a word or phrase that isn't really transmissible to someone not familiar with the language and its culture. The example of "bouquet" was likely to touch on the idea that the literal translation of the word would be more akin to their example of "bunch of flowers". Since the word has now integrated into English, there is an immediate understanding that you're not just referring to a bunch of flowers, but something meant to be aesthetically pleasing and usually to signify an event of some importance. I suppose the English language did handle the word, but it did so by just integrating the word, not by translating it.

The response to the parent comment was more to debate that there are a lot of words, concepts, and idioms that may carry an actual translation or similar concept in another, but the translations fail to capture the immediacy of the idea conveyed by the original word or phrase. It's not to say that there is no way to understand or interpret these bits of language unless you're a native speaker, it's that in many cases you lose a lot of the meaning without the cultural context surrounding it.

Culture and language are pretty inseparable; it's why transliteration is often frowned upon when doing translation works, and localization is considered important to helping the audience understand without imparting too high of a burden of knowledge of their part. Sometimes this burden of knowledge is simply unavoidable. But the ability of a word or phrase to evoke a specific idea/image/feeling in one language and to not do so in another is not impossible. If you know anyone for whom English is a second language (and has not spent extended time in the US), try to explain why "cut the cheese" is funny in English. They may understand conceptually that there is a rude meaning to the phrase, but I'm willing to bet they'd be more than happy to tell you that they'll cut the cheese in the kitchen.

Re:Can Multilingualism Survive?: How cities preserve and aba... by MichaelGG on Sunday May 15, 2016 @07:41PM (#11703321)
But a floral arrangement can be of various shapes, laid out in a wreath or across a table right? At least as I've heard it used, bouquet doesn't really refer to a wreath or other designs. Maybe I'm splitting nonexistent hairs.
Re:Can Multilingualism Survive?: How cities preserve and aba... by Typhon on Sunday May 15, 2016 @07:30PM (#11703285)
It all depend on what you count as connotation, but I'd argue that if anything can be expressed verbally, then it can be translated. There is no such thing as untranslatability.
Re:Can Multilingualism Survive?: How cities preserve and aba... by Swizec on Sunday May 15, 2016 @07:56PM (#11703373)
One thing that's very hard to translate comes from my native language - Slovenian. The grammatical number 2.

The same way most languages have singular and plural, Slovenian also has dual. It's much handier than always specifying "two somethings". Very few languages still have this feature. English for instance only has residual traces left.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dual_(grammatical_number)

You can translate it, of course, but it's going to look and feel awkward.

Re:Can Multilingualism Survive?: How cities preserve and aba... by WildUtah on Monday May 16, 2016 @02:49AM (#11704685)
"I'd argue that if anything can be expressed verbally, then it can be translated."

Have you made a serious effort to translate jokes, poetry, or advertising slogans between unrelated languages before you made that assertion? Were your clients unequivocally satisfied with your work?

Re:Can Multilingualism Survive?: How cities preserve and aba... by acjohnson55 on Sunday May 15, 2016 @08:02PM (#11703401)
You may be speaking of unexpressibility in a different sense, but the word "ineffible" literally means something which cannot be expressed in words: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ineffability.
Re:Can Multilingualism Survive?: How cities preserve and aba... by guard-of-terra on Sunday May 15, 2016 @06:42PM (#11703131)
But we don't all use "compile" or "git commit" as barewords in our languages, do we? That would be silly and out of place.

We use those as stems, over which we add our own orthography, morphology and syntax.

Re:Can Multilingualism Survive?: How cities preserve and aba... by cm2187 on Sunday May 15, 2016 @07:46PM (#11703329)
I see lots of French milleniums writing each others in english on social networks. I don't think because they want to be understood by a foreign audience. Just because english has become the language of the internet, english expressions are becoming a sort of habit.
Re:Can Multilingualism Survive?: How cities preserve and aba... by zanny on Sunday May 15, 2016 @07:57PM (#11703375)
If the Internet pushes English enough to get every digital citizen to learn it, that would be one of the most compelling reasons for its social good.

I always hate all the talk about multilingualism as a good thing, when the consequence of language diversity is, one, people are wasting time in their youths learning languages for other peoples benefit, ie, those that want to "preserve" it, when the marginal utility of having excess languages is at best questionable. And two, if you do not know the primary language used for, you know, communicating with other human beings, especially English, your potential economic mobility is catastrophically crippled on a global scale.

Re:Can Multilingualism Survive?: How cities preserve and aba... by fighting on Monday May 16, 2016 @01:48AM (#11704466)
While I agree that language policing like you see in France or the drive for culture preservation via language in various parts of the world is tragically misguided if not actively harmful, the one thing that gives pause is that we do not have a 'perfect' language in english by any means. Learning other languages and lingustic evolution gives hope that we can trend towards better options in the future. So lets not declare english as the winner just yet.
Re:Can Multilingualism Survive?: How cities preserve and aba... by zanny on Monday May 16, 2016 @11:12AM (#11706784)
Absolutely, but at the same time it depends on what you value in a language. That is kind of what this whole conversation is about, after all. English is garbage from any compative measure of language quality, its grammar is irrational, it has thousands of edge cases, it does not even use the entire range of human auditory sounds. But that constitutes a linguists evaluation of it - for probably 99.9999% of human beings, language is there to facilitate communication, in which case all the grammar breaks and eccentricities go out the window for the singular overriding and essential value of - do you and the other person speak the same language?

That is why English is so important now, since about half the world knows it, and the difference between knowing it or not could be the difference between perpetual poverty and improving standards of living.

In the same way, the cultural aspect cannot be considered relevant as much as the grammar cannot be, because the importance of having a language to communicate is overwhelming. There will always be people that like languages and learn them, language diversity will never die, but I also would wonder how you could ever hope to replace English with something better. It is the kind of thing that logically should seem obvious - a university department of smart people, or a global consortium, could come together and try to architect a language optimized for everyone, that has firm grammar rules and uses all the auditory notes of the human voice range, and prioritizes making common words short and such. But once you make that language, how do you teach it to the world? And in between, are you proposing people learn English and Earthish at the same time?

Re:Can Multilingualism Survive?: How cities preserve and aba... by fighting on Monday May 16, 2016 @12:54PM (#11707653)
Well english has replaced itself many times, just compare old english, middle english, Shakespeare vs now. It is evolution and english is good at adapting, but even so, in Roman times no one would have predicted English to dominate society. These things can change quite rapidly and history is not at an end by any means. And with the internet, I think the changes/evolution could be quite dramatic.
Re:Can Multilingualism Survive?: How cities preserve and aba... by cm2187 on Monday May 16, 2016 @02:47AM (#11704672)
What other language do you suggest we use instead? English as already de facto won. It is the modern latin.
Re:Can Multilingualism Survive?: How cities preserve and aba... by fighting on Monday May 16, 2016 @03:14AM (#11704762)
What I would like to see is a language that is much more succinct, less bound in grammar rules/syntax but also less irregularities and ambiguities. English could evolve into this. Latin could have too but currently it is dead. Change happens.
Re:Can Multilingualism Survive?: How cities preserve and aba... by cm2187 on Monday May 16, 2016 @03:44AM (#11704853)
But again, what language? We are not talking about computer languages. This is not a theoretical exercise in an ideal software world where you can start all over again. It's going to be one of the mainstream languages. Which one? Russian? Chinese?
Re:Can Multilingualism Survive?: How cities preserve and aba... by fighting on Monday May 16, 2016 @04:12AM (#11704939)
Yes, currently Chinese is the main alternative with the most population and has some of the features I mentioned. It is also great for business with many people learning it to attract some of the chinese money floating around and lots of foreigners there to make their fortunes. But just a couple of decades ago it was russian. A major war between the US and China and it might be Hindi next. Never safe to predict the future.
Re:Can Multilingualism Survive?: How cities preserve and aba... by douche on Monday May 16, 2016 @08:04AM (#11705751)
Chinese has a really awful written form, as far as being something that people can learn to read and write in a short amount of time.
Re:Can Multilingualism Survive?: How cities preserve and aba... by seanmcdirmid on Monday May 16, 2016 @04:13AM (#11704946)
And before that Japanese.
Re:Can Multilingualism Survive?: How cities preserve and aba... by cm2187 on Monday May 16, 2016 @06:25AM (#11705395)
I can safely predict that Chinese will not be used as the common language for Europe...
Re:Can Multilingualism Survive?: How cities preserve and aba... by Typhon on Sunday May 15, 2016 @08:17PM (#11703451)
Tu as tout à fait raison. Pourquoi perdrais-je mon temps à apprendre ta langue pour ton bénéfice, c'est une perte de temps total. Merci de m'avoir ouvert les yeux.

J'aime bien aussi ta deuxième phrase qui sous-entend qu'on ne peut communiquer avec les autres qu'en anglais. Je me demande comment je faisais pour discuter avec mes parents quand j'étais petit. C'est sans doute de là que vient la tragique incommunicabilité qui a marqué mon enfance.

Re:Can Multilingualism Survive?: How cities preserve and aba... by _kyran on Monday May 16, 2016 @01:16AM (#11704385)
Exactement. Quand j'étais plus jeune, je voulais de comprendre et communiquer avec des Francophones.

Je ne saisis pas que le majorité des jeunes en France apprennent et utilisent Anglais tout les temps. Donc à le début, c'était très difficile d'avoir un conversation sans les changent à anglais.

Maintenant je peux parler juste un peu le Français, mais l'expression quand un francophones réalise que je peux le comprendre est absolument fantastique :)

Bravo pour apprendre Anglais. Je souhaite que plus gens ont apprécié la lutte que les locuteurs non natifs ont quand ils apprennent un nouveau langue.

Re:Can Multilingualism Survive?: How cities preserve and aba... by vacri on Monday May 16, 2016 @04:10AM (#11704934)
One benefit of keeping languages around is that they help us understand what the brain is capable of. I'm with you on having a universal communication language, but keeping other languages alive does have some benefits.

One example is literature - literature often does not translate well at all. Another is psychology and brain functionality, as I say above. For example, there are languages out there that don't have 'left' and 'right' as concepts. Instead people use 'east' and 'west' or 'north' and 'south'. Speakers of these languages tend to have a very good grasp of their geospatial bearing as a result. Without these unusual languages, we would be very unlikely to think of experimenting with such a concept, much less be able to test it.

I did hear of one language about to go extinct (in central america, I think). There are apparently only two speakers of it, both elderly, that live a couple of streets apart... and they don't speak to each other because of some feud :)

Re:Can Multilingualism Survive?: How cities preserve and aba... by ginko on Sunday May 15, 2016 @06:14PM (#11703020)
Germans certainly have "Bauchweh"
Re:Can Multilingualism Survive?: How cities preserve and aba... by 0xffff2 on Sunday May 15, 2016 @07:45PM (#11703325)
That's exactly the point... German speakers have "Bauchweh" where English speakers have a "tummy ache", but both "compile" their code.
Re:Can Multilingualism Survive?: How cities preserve and aba... by germanier on Monday May 16, 2016 @04:50AM (#11705067)
German speakers certainly use the word "kompilieren" which developed independently of the English "compile" a few hundred years ago. For computer programs it is used of course following the English example.

They don't have their own word for "commit". Instead they use the English one as a loan word. However, it follows all the regular grammar rules ("Ich habe das gestern committet"). Loan words are nothing new. They are adopted and merged into languages and often they reach a point where people don't notice anymore that they are foreign to the language.

Nowadays English is the major source of loan words. Before that it was French, and before that Latin. English is not taking over any more than the other two did.