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Re:My Biggest Regret as a Programmer by dcw303 on Wednesday April 06, 2016 @05:16AM (#11437615)
I'm still coding after almost 20 years in the job, and have no intention of stopping. I tried some other options - teacher, artist, entrepreneur. None of them give me the thrill that I get from programming. I still get locked into a flow where time shifts, and before I know it hours have passed.

The only other activity that does that is Civ, and no-one is going to pay me to play that ;)

If 10x assets is what drives you, more power to you. For me, being happy right now is more important that any imagined future happiness that a fat bank account could provide. And let's be honest, you can still make a pretty decent salary as a developer.

You might be dead tomorrow; you might as well enjoy today.

Re:My Biggest Regret as a Programmer by andyjohnson0 on Wednesday April 06, 2016 @09:31AM (#11438616)
I'm in my late forties and have been a professional developer for 25+ years. I agree with what you said in your comment, but this stood out:

"You might be dead tomorrow; you might as well enjoy today."

This is not a bad way to live, but as I get older I am increasingly aware that there will be a day when I'm dead tomorrow. And for that reason I'm increasingly less interested in spending time in the state where "time shifts, and before I know it hours have passed." Instead I want to fill those hours with real-time concious, experienced enjoyment. Because I can't live them again.

Being in the zone and cranking out great code still feels good, but only at the time. Which I guess makes me conflicted or something.

Thank you for making me think about this.

Re:My Biggest Regret as a Programmer by matwood on Wednesday April 06, 2016 @09:42AM (#11438685)
I'm only in my late 30s, but have also been thinking a lot about this. I see older people and wonder what they are thinking. Are they happy with the choices they made, the memories they have? What will I think when I'm 50, 60, 70?

Then I remember how lucky I am. I started with next to nothing, worked through college, and now basically get paid to play with computers all day (something I would have done for free anyways). I get to travel and have other amazing experiences. Biggie said it best, "when I was dead broke man, I couldn't picture this".

One of the reasons I think programmers always end up in this existential plight is that we are successful enough to have time to think about it. When I was young and worried about eating or having enough money to put gas in the car so I could get to work or school (or even having a car) I never thought about these things.

Re:My Biggest Regret as a Programmer by listingboat on Wednesday April 06, 2016 @10:50AM (#11439128)
Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs
Re:My Biggest Regret as a Programmer by drumdance on Wednesday April 06, 2016 @10:13AM (#11438871)
I'm about the same age as you. The passage of time is shockingly fast unless I do things to slow it down.

I remember moments from my college days that I can pinpoint to the year they happened. That thing that happened sophomore year? I know it happened sophomore year because I did it with my roommate at the time.

But nowadays I'll watch a movie on Netflix thinking it came out just in the past year or two, only to discover it came out in, say, 2007 or worse 1997.

A close friend of mine's daughter just turned 16. I remember her birth like it was yesterday. But the intervening years... not so much.

I think having kids, which I have not done, might slow time down a bit. Travel helps too.

Re:My Biggest Regret as a Programmer by noname123 on Wednesday April 06, 2016 @11:21AM (#11439342)
“As your perspective of the world increases not only is the pain it inflicts on you less but also its meaning. Understanding the world requires you to take a certain distance from it.

Things that are too small to see with the naked eye, such as molecules and atoms, we magnify. Things that are too large, such as cloud formations, river deltas, constellations, we reduce. At length we bring it within the scope of our senses and we stabilize it with fixer.

When it has been fixed we call it knowledge. Throughout our childhood and teenage years, we strive to attain the correct distance to objects and phenomena. We read, we learn, we experience, we make adjustments. Then one day we reach the point where all the necessary distances have been set, all the necessary systems have been put in place.

That is when time begins to pick up speed. It no longer meets any obstacles, everything is set, time races through our lives, the days pass by in a flash and before we know that is happening we are forty, fifty, sixty...

Meaning requires content, content requires time, time requires resistance. Knowledge is distance, knowledge is stasis and the enemy of meaning. My picture of my father on that evening in 1976 is, in other words, twofold: on the one hand I see him as I saw him at that time, through the eyes of an eight-year-old: unpredictable and frightening; on the other hand, I see him as a peer through whose life time is blowing and unremittingly sweeping large chunks of meaning along with it.”

― Karl Ove Knausgård, Min kamp 1

Re:My Biggest Regret as a Programmer by powvans on Wednesday April 06, 2016 @10:32AM (#11438984)
> I think having kids, which I have not done, might slow time down a bit.

It's a paradox best expressed by the old adage: the days are long, but the years are short.

Re:My Biggest Regret as a Programmer by feiss on Wednesday April 06, 2016 @10:47AM (#11439104)
I agree with that. My days are dense, long, tiring and slow, but I can't believe a full year has passed already.

Before having my daughter, days were fast, weeks were faster, and years slipped through my fingers. Time goes faster when you daily routine is always more less the same, and that is more difficult with a child.

Re:My Biggest Regret as a Programmer by andyjohnson0 on Wednesday April 06, 2016 @10:52AM (#11439147)
Random waiting-for-a-build thoughts:

I find that if you hang around long enough and pay attention, you start to see the shape and patterns of your life. Not an original or profound observation, but it can be surprisingly easy for many of us to defer thinking about such things. What you gain from this you pay for with time, though.

In a similar experience to yours, I watched The Matrix with my son recently and was shocked to discover that it was released in 1999 - but I think of it as a recent thing. Holding my niece when she was a newborn baby and showing her Christmas tree lights, and now she's making an independent life in a big city.

In my experience, and as others have commented, having children doesn't slow time down. You're so busy with them for so long, and they rush towards their future so fast.

I'm reminded of a phrase that Sam Altman used: The days are long but the decades are short [1].

[1] http://blog.samaltman.com/the-days-are-long-but-the-decades-...

Re:My Biggest Regret as a Programmer by mschaef on Wednesday April 06, 2016 @10:24AM (#11438933)
> I think having kids, which I have not done, might slow time down a bit.

Speaking from firsthand experience, it seems to do just the opposite.

Re:My Biggest Regret as a Programmer by bigtunacan on Wednesday April 06, 2016 @11:07AM (#11439249)
As a father of 3 I agree. Children in my experience just makes you more aware of how quickly time is passing. My oldest is now in junior high, but it seems like just yesterday she was a baby.
Re:My Biggest Regret as a Programmer by aws_ls on Wednesday April 06, 2016 @10:43AM (#11439052)
I think, if we have enough leisure time, to an extent we get bored, results in us feeling time passes slowly. I used to get that feeling during summer vacations in school/college days. Not so much now.

So I also struggle with this exact same problem, i.e. some thing which I feel is recent is actually 5/10 years back. I am trying to work on it, so far not so successfully.

Re:My Biggest Regret as a Programmer by StephenConnell on Wednesday April 06, 2016 @11:44AM (#11439519)
Having kids speeds it up... Totally worth it though.
Re:My Biggest Regret as a Programmer by mml on Wednesday April 06, 2016 @01:01PM (#11440038)
> I think having kids, which I have not done, might slow time down a bit. Travel helps too.

Nope. Makes it go even faster, and you remember even less.

Re:My Biggest Regret as a Programmer by DotNetDev1 on Wednesday April 06, 2016 @06:09PM (#11442571)
Glad...or sad...to hear that I'm not the only one who feels this way. 25 to 35 seems to have gone twice as fast as high school graduation to college graduation. The only way I'm able to slow time down is by travelling on the weekends or vacation. Otherwise I blink and the seasons have changed and another birthday candle is blow out.
Re:My Biggest Regret as a Programmer by donatj on Wednesday April 06, 2016 @10:00AM (#11438797)
I'm about to turn 30 in just over a month. I got my first programming job at 20 and am seriously wondering where my twenties went? Honestly it terrifies me how quickly they went. All of my twenties went about as fast as tenth grade. I blame the time shift of programming. I hear about all the adventures my wife had before we met and just think "well I was busy programming". Since getting married in September I have spent much less of my home time programming. I've gone from initially resentful to grateful more recently. Time seems to have slowed.
Re:My Biggest Regret as a Programmer by euphemize on Wednesday April 06, 2016 @10:28AM (#11438954)
Great realization. I'm in a similar boat. On the upside, 30 is still quite young, there's lots of time to do other stuff and slow things down ever more.
Re:My Biggest Regret as a Programmer by hinkley on Wednesday April 06, 2016 @01:35PM (#11440289)
The grandparents were telling us the 40's are your best years. You have the money to do things and your body still cooperates most of the time.
Re:My Biggest Regret as a Programmer by tsmarsh on Wednesday April 06, 2016 @05:14PM (#11442158)
I can't say I had exactly the same experience. My 20s seemed to drag, my 30s? My 30s are flying by. Between moving continents, establishing myself in a new market, getting married, buy a house, having kids. I feel like I've blinked and I'm in my mid 30s.

The days are long the years are short.

Re:My Biggest Regret as a Programmer by rogeroga on Wednesday April 06, 2016 @03:07PM (#11441008)
QUESTION for people like you: +20 YEARS OF PROGRAMMING EXPERIENCE that like to be in the zone, cranking code and building, releasing stuff to the world and then enjoy the impact of that when people use it.

Have you noticed that now more than never before there is plethora of amazing libraries, frameworks, language, tools, platforms, clouds, etc. that are easily available to use and if you like to build stuff WHY NOT CREATE YOUR OWN THING and come up with your own ideas and build them instead of continuing working for one company probably using the same software stack? Why limit yourself? have you entertained a regret like this?

I ask this, because I'm in the same boat as you and this is my small regret though I'm working on the side, slowly, to build my own thing in the free time that family and my day job allows it.

Cheers!

Re:My Biggest Regret as a Programmer by MarkMc on Thursday April 07, 2016 @06:29AM (#11446180)
Thanks for brining this up. 'Flow' seems such a great state when I am in it, but I sometimes wonder if I'm missing out by not trying to create memorable experiences instead...
Re:My Biggest Regret as a Programmer by bucma on Wednesday April 06, 2016 @09:22AM (#11438557)
I think people who are picking up on the 10x assets thing are missing the point... Money can help you feel better about things when things in general aren't going well.

What he says about missed opportunities, and working for idiotic management, that's the big thing here. You work your ass off, the management does dumb things, so the thing you're working on never really pays off, in money or fun.

The fact that his sister has 10x the assets is kind of an insult after injury kind of thing.

Re:My Biggest Regret as a Programmer by justaman on Wednesday April 06, 2016 @09:57AM (#11438772)
I think the disconnect between management and the developers is worth discussing.

Its important for management to understand the difficulties and decisions made by a development team to properly create a roadmap for the business. I think the author is expressing that the lack of respect for the programmers opinions can be detrimental.

Re:My Biggest Regret as a Programmer by exelius on Wednesday April 06, 2016 @10:23AM (#11438927)
It's more that in a business (which is a power structure optimized for efficiency - meaning hierarchical power structure) the programmers are at the bottom of the pyramid. Involving their input would take far too many layers of overhead; so the decisions get made further up where there are fewer people to consult (and hence more efficient).

IMO it is essential in today's world to have competent engineering management in the room whenever any major product decisions are made.

Re:My Biggest Regret as a Programmer by collyw on Wednesday April 06, 2016 @10:46AM (#11439084)
This is probably why there is so much poor software about.
Re:My Biggest Regret as a Programmer by devonkim on Wednesday April 06, 2016 @11:35AM (#11439444)
That sounds like the underlying problem at heart and is why I started down the path of being more customer facing (combined with getting quickly tired of all the nerd stereotype personalities as my immediate coworkers). The reward for incompetence and the perception-driven careers that is so common with professional managers is a slap in the face to everyone that not only are under them but to those that have to live with the consequences of their negligence. There are some that get kicked down, but typically they'll just find another sucker and continue on and on with self delusion that they've actually brought any value besides some vague association with some rich people to the company.

The problem that really bugs me as well as a lot of others is perhaps more deep-seated - that the popular kids from high school really do win anyway and become your bosses, and stories like Steve Wozniak or Bill Gates where smart, technical people can get ahead of the incompetent but very personable charlatans are becoming less and less common. That confidence / arrogance really are enough to succeed (many do work hard but so do the majority of technical workers too with almost none of the rewards) in the eyes of US society is a lingering thought.

Re:My Biggest Regret as a Programmer by ArkyBeagle on Wednesday April 06, 2016 @01:42PM (#11440340)
The work itself has to be worth it, or it's not worth it. External motivation has a low multiplier.
Re:My Biggest Regret as a Programmer by dinkumthinkum on Wednesday April 06, 2016 @09:55PM (#11444067)
It is so oddly ironic for the idea of wanting assets and property to be so anathema on HN.
Re:My Biggest Regret as a Programmer by pjmlp on Wednesday April 06, 2016 @06:03AM (#11437777)
Same here, but it is a big fight to convince the others why you want to stay that way. Right now I get the feeling that long term, going consulting might be the only option left as regular companies tend to only keep juniors coding.

> You might be dead tomorrow; you might as well enjoy today.

Just for this remark I wish I could have upvoted you more than once.

This is something that those that live for the job, without paying attention to family and friends seem to forget.

Re:My Biggest Regret as a Programmer by buserror on Wednesday April 06, 2016 @06:42AM (#11437876)
Likewise here. I'm 47, been programming since I'm 12. I'm very good at it. I also know I'd be a bad manager, unless I work with /very/ good people.

And yes, Ican relate to the article; I've seen (I still see) junior managers who can barely tie their shoes make more money than excellent engineers with 25y experience, but that's the way the world is...

Basically 'engineer'/'programmer' is a calling for some; it is for me. People for whom this is not a calling will never be /really/ good at it (for one thing, they don't spend their spare time doing it!) and eventually gravitate out of it.

But the ones for whom it is a calling, well, sod the money, give me some nice project/people to work on/with and I'm happy.

Or, do that but also get the money by going consulting. That's what I do for the last few years. It's quite exciting being a 'mercenary' in a way, and you can dissociate yourself from the companies/products and focus on the engineering.

Re:My Biggest Regret as a Programmer by woofyman on Wednesday April 06, 2016 @07:46AM (#11438085)
I'll be 57 in 3 months. I've been coding professionally for 35 years.
Re:My Biggest Regret as a Programmer by BatFastard on Wednesday April 06, 2016 @08:53AM (#11438407)
Noob, 58 and 40 years under my belt! I have been down the VP route, started my own successful company (at someone made a lot of money from it, not me). But I choose to program, I sleep well at night, I feel great about what I do (usually, every once in awhile I hit some problem that is incredibly frustrating). And I love to create things! I worked as an electrical engineer for a few years, but the turn-around time on my creations was weeks if not months. With software ware its hours or days. What is it about flo? That your life goes by so quickly, but you feel so good about it?
Re:My Biggest Regret as a Programmer by flatline on Wednesday April 06, 2016 @09:43AM (#11438692)
> What is it about flo? That your life goes by so quickly...

The past is just a memory, the present moment is so fleeting that it cannot be grasped, and the future hasn't happened yet:) I think being in a flow state is about living with this fact, in the moment, as it is, without all the mental overhead that is past and future. You're not 58, you are brand new, right now, just as you are.

Re:My Biggest Regret as a Programmer by buserror on Wednesday April 06, 2016 @08:29AM (#11438282)
I started working at 17. So that's 30 years for me! Darn, I should have some sort of celebration ;-)

My very first paid project was designing the PA audio system in the Lille (france) metro. It was a fancy Mac SE/30 with a IEEE GPIO card. That was driving two big Revox Tape machines, and was playing one, rewinding the other etc. Occasionally it would also play a digital audio file (w000t!).

It was all in Pascal at the time, and I had a whooping 4MB of ram. System ran for well over 10 years!

Re:My Biggest Regret as a Programmer by woofyman on Wednesday April 06, 2016 @08:50AM (#11438393)
My first program was written in Dartmouth Basic. The original version of Basic. In college, for the first 2 years I used punched cards. Then after college I programmed a jet fighter. Then realtime embedded avioinics stuff. I got tired of working with custom hardware which was challenging distinguishing between hardware and software bugs. After 20 years of Windows programming, I re-invented myself as a HTML, CSS, CoffeeScript, Javascript, LUA, PHP, Angular, Ember and iOS developer.
Re:My Biggest Regret as a Programmer by joshmanders on Wednesday April 06, 2016 @09:09AM (#11438493)
Thanks guys, you all make me feel better about turning 31 in a month and a half and have been coding since 15.
Re:My Biggest Regret as a Programmer by valine on Wednesday April 06, 2016 @09:45AM (#11438706)
I stated coding when I was 11. I turned 19 a couple months ago. I guess that makes me one of those junior developers everyone talks about.
Re:My Biggest Regret as a Programmer by ska on Wednesday April 06, 2016 @10:31AM (#11438979)
Coding as a child often makes you a better junior developer. It very rarely makes you anything but a junior developer, your first few years full time at it.
Re:My Biggest Regret as a Programmer by valine on Wednesday April 06, 2016 @11:48AM (#11439554)
This is very true. I had my first full time internship last summer and although I wouldn't say I was unprepared, it opened my eyes to all the things I don't know. Code reviews take some getting used to when you're coming from a purely academic world. From reading hacker news I knew there would be blindspots in my education. It felt good filling in some of the blanks.
Re:My Biggest Regret as a Programmer by pjmlp on Wednesday April 06, 2016 @09:16AM (#11438520)
I started coding at the age of 10 with Timex Basic, Z80 and everything evolve from there.

On my first internship after high school while waiting for university applications to come out was done in Clipper and Access/Visual Basic. Also starting OS/400 backup jobs.

Not the set of languages that I already enjoyed most, but it kept myself busy during the Summer.

Re:My Biggest Regret as a Programmer by randcraw on Wednesday April 06, 2016 @09:53AM (#11438750)
I'm 58 too. First program: HP25 assembly (calculator) in 1975; second: Dartmouth BASIC (horrible) in 1976. After a degree in zoology, I went back for a MS in CS part time. I've been programming in various forms of R&D since.

I can't imagine having done anything else. Sure, many other careers sound appealing. But software has been stimulating and sustainable while affording me a managable level of stress and downtime as needed. (Try doing that as a physician or veterinarian, both careers that I once considered).

That said, I sympathize with the OP's frustrations. Software jobs usually imply a rather flat hierarchy, with little opportunity for advancement other than leads or principals. Any further rise in responsibility requires that you leave tech behind and spend your days in meetings. Not for me.

However if you work in R&D without a PhD, I've found a severe glass ceiling (especially at larger companies). In general, no advancement beyond lead staff for you. If I'd known that 10-20 years ago, I would have handled that differently (get a PhD, work at smaller firms, or leave R&D). The road not taken, I guess...

Re:My Biggest Regret as a Programmer by lucaspottersky on Wednesday April 06, 2016 @09:34AM (#11438630)
I'm about to write my first Hello World and I already dislike it.
Re:My Biggest Regret as a Programmer by HCIdivision17 on Wednesday April 06, 2016 @09:42AM (#11438684)
Stick with it - it really pays returns down the line. Specifically, do some real soul-crushing busy work for a while (Excel is a good place to start) and then realize that you can automate large chucks of that in just a few minutes. It'll take days/hours at first, but eventually hours/minutes.

It's hard to beat the feeling of having a computer make your life easier. There's a triumph in it.

Re:My Biggest Regret as a Programmer by murukesh_s on Wednesday April 06, 2016 @10:27AM (#11438947)
don't worry you could end up as the lucky one the author talks about :)
Re:My Biggest Regret as a Programmer by madengr on Wednesday April 06, 2016 @12:32PM (#11439842)
"I've seen (I still see) junior managers who can barely tie their shoes make more money than excellent engineers with 25y experience, but that's the way the world is.."

Screw that. I'd never work for a place like that.

Re:My Biggest Regret as a Programmer by evook on Wednesday April 06, 2016 @03:00PM (#11440955)
This attitude works out if your extremely good in your Spezialisation. I had kept track of my own ROI for the companies I worked for, granted them a bit of that and the rest should be for me. It worked because I always had the digits at hand. Basically "I need a raise, I have 3 jobs offers lined up, your making this of me and I demand x% of that otherwise you loose y over the course of z. Deal?"
Re:My Biggest Regret as a Programmer by madengr on Wednesday April 06, 2016 @08:29PM (#11443615)
Funny, I specialize in RF/Microwave circuit design, and did just the same. Had a good job offer, and used that to leverage promotion and raise.
Re:My Biggest Regret as a Programmer by henrik_w on Wednesday April 06, 2016 @05:30AM (#11437665)
So true!

I've been programming professionally for 25 years, still love it! http://henrikwarne.com/2012/06/02/why-i-love-coding/

Also, it's easy to forget that being a SW developer today has a lot going for it - especially the demand. At least here in Stockholm, if you are good at what you do, you can pick and chose where to work. So no reason to stay at a place where you are not happy. http://henrikwarne.com/2014/12/08/5-reasons-why-software-dev...

Re:My Biggest Regret as a Programmer by tetraodonpuffer on Wednesday April 06, 2016 @03:30PM (#11441219)
there is also 'you might become too sick to work, but not sick enough to die tomorrow' which is what makes me more and more worried as I get older and society provides less and less safety nets

To me the 'my sister has 10x the assets' is like saying 'my sister is going to be ok in her retirement years, while I hope I'll be able to keep working for as long as I need to', but maybe I am reading that through the lens of my concerns/fears

Re:My Biggest Regret as a Programmer by serge2k on Wednesday April 06, 2016 @09:36AM (#11438643)
It's less the 10x assets (although yes, I want 10x assets!) as it is the chance to really influence something and drive your vision more.
Re:My Biggest Regret as a Programmer by fefifofu on Wednesday April 06, 2016 @11:31AM (#11439416)
The thing is, you "tried some other options - teacher, artist, entrepreneur". I think "trying" is the key. It helps you be more satisfied with the road you are on when you've been on the other roads (at least a for a little bit).
Re:My Biggest Regret as a Programmer by audleman on Wednesday April 06, 2016 @03:12PM (#11441055)
The author states that he won't be able to retire. I find that hard to believe; programming is fairly lucrative.
Re:My Biggest Regret as a Programmer by robodale on Wednesday April 06, 2016 @09:38AM (#11438655)
I like the cut of your jib.