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Re:Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, ... by moioci on Thursday March 17, 2016 @06:06PM (#11308011)
Interesting parallel with Lavabit pointed out at the end of the article. Would the DOJ be willing to risk shutting down the biggest and most profitable corporation on earth over this?
Re:Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, ... by jfoutz on Thursday March 17, 2016 @07:58PM (#11308703)
The DOJ couldn't shut down apple. Apple has $200,000,000,000 in cash and marketable securities. DOJ's budget is only 27 billion. That's a lot of lawyer time. It's a huge waste of money, but there it is.

Way less likely, but Apple could move HQ to another country. And take their secret source code and keys with them.

Re:Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, ... by rawnlq on Thursday March 17, 2016 @08:23PM (#11308851)
I wonder if there's any advantage for Apple to form their own sovereign nation to operate out of. They are already richer than many existing countries. Can't they just buy out a Singapore-sized island somewhere?
Re:Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, ... by saulrh on Thursday March 17, 2016 @08:43PM (#11308977)
You know, cyberpunk fiction always theorized that corporations would buy their own sovereignty for economic advantage or removing pesky laws against child labor, the first amendment, or slavery. I never expected them to do it in pure, honest self-defense.
Re:Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, ... by peterkelly on Thursday March 17, 2016 @08:55PM (#11309042)
I've always thought of Singapore as the "Apple" of countries. Incredibly modern, clean, organised, and well-presented. But run according to very strict rules, like banning chewing gum entirely, and $500 fines for littering.
Re:Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, ... by avar on Friday March 18, 2016 @04:47AM (#11310599)
Funny how a lot of Americans think banning chewing gum is oppressive but don't realize the similarity in the USA entirely banning Kinder Surprise eggs.

Lots of arbitrary stuff is banned in a lot of countries. Singapore just thought the littering cons of gum outweighed the pros.

Note that stuff like nicotine gum and other "therapeutic" chewing gum is still allowed, they just don't allow the candy that leads to littering.

And honestly looking around in a lot of cities where the entirety of downtown is slowly growing into a white blob composed of little individual pieces of squashed chewing gum I don't blame them.

Re:Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, ... by DigitalSea on Friday March 18, 2016 @08:14AM (#11311226)
> looking around in a lot of cities where the entirety of downtown is slowly growing into a white blob composed of little individual pieces of squashed chewing gum

Gum wall in Seattle, case in point.

Re:Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, ... by naaaaak on Thursday March 17, 2016 @09:07PM (#11309089)
If this becomes a thing, the world is going to run out of islands faster than companies can buy them to evade totalitarian governments.
Re:Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, ... by rawnlq on Thursday March 17, 2016 @10:15PM (#11309393)
This is getting really off topic but this is a potential solution: https://www.quora.com/If-someone-were-to-build-an-artificial...

And there's only a handful of companies large enough to do this: http://www.businessinsider.com/25-corporations-bigger-tan-co...

Re:Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, ... by rqebmm on Thursday March 17, 2016 @09:18PM (#11309144)
Not if the sovereign state of Applestan starts offering attractive lease options
Re:Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, ... by snowwrestler on Friday March 18, 2016 @01:00AM (#11310007)
There's probably no advantage; to do business in the U.S., a company must comport with U.S. laws. If Apple moved their HQ to the Sovereign Island of SteveJobistan, they would still have to follow U.S. court orders if they wanted to sell products to Americans within the borders of the U.S.
Re:Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, ... by X0Refraction on Friday March 18, 2016 @06:43AM (#11310909)
But would the U.S. populace put up with not being able to buy Apple devices at all? That starts sounding like restriction on free trade to the average American which is something they are much more likely to stand against as the government couldn't leverage fear to make the populace go against their own interests.
Re:Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, ... by antihero on Friday March 18, 2016 @07:12AM (#11311007)
Stopping the sale of Apple devices and temporarily disabling US iPhones would probably be the singular most socially impacting event in recent history. If you want people to revolt, take their favourite toy away and blame the government.
Re:Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, ... by snowwrestler on Friday March 18, 2016 @10:45AM (#11312105)
Would Apple's shareholders put up with Apple not being able to sell into the U.S. market?

We're getting into "kill the company to make a point" territory, which is probably not realistic however we might imagine they do it.

Whatever leverage Apple has over the federal government will come from the millions of citizens who are customers, shareholders, developers, fans, employees, etc. They can activate those people just as well from Cupertino as they can from their own island.

Re:Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, ... by kevin_thibedeau on Thursday March 17, 2016 @08:30PM (#11308899)
Re:Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, ... by TazeTSchnitzel on Thursday March 17, 2016 @09:53PM (#11309278)
Some have suggested Apple use its massive cash reserves to bail out Greece.
Re:Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, ... by Matt3o12_ on Friday March 18, 2016 @12:06AM (#11309810)
Couldn't the government just ban sales from that country (i.e. Apple). They have done that for Cuba, so why not for a company , country I mean, that "supports terrorism".
Re:Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, ... by walrus01 on Thursday March 17, 2016 @10:12PM (#11309382)
Re:Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, ... by TazeTSchnitzel on Thursday March 17, 2016 @09:49PM (#11309263)
Perhaps Apple, Inc. could become a subsidiary of Apple's Irish operations.
Re:Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, ... by LAMike on Thursday March 17, 2016 @08:21PM (#11308837)
The US government would respond by banning all iOS devices
Re:Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, ... by koenigdavidmj on Thursday March 17, 2016 @08:33PM (#11308921)
And most of the US government's phones suddenly turn into expensive bricks.

I'm not sure whether a company should be 'too big to govern', but it is on occasion hilarious.

Re:Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, ... by ohyeshedid on Thursday March 17, 2016 @10:59PM (#11309561)
It's not that it's too big to govern, it's that they're too big to fail. Publicly traded, employment footprint, market penetration; too big to fail. The impact of any action that would kill Apple here would also destroy the economy. Never happen.
Re:Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, ... by thirdsun on Friday March 18, 2016 @06:14AM (#11310828)
Which is probably a very good way to cause at least minor riots.
Re:Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, ... by orik on Thursday March 17, 2016 @07:07PM (#11308393)
I believe when the government twisted Yahoo's hand and they put up a fight, Yahoo was given a fine that increased exponentially every day they didn't comply.

Yahoo would have owed the US gov. a sum equivalent to the GDP by the end of a month.

Re:Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, ... by studentrob on Thursday March 17, 2016 @09:45PM (#11309243)
Yes, $250,000 per day [1]. And that was in 2008 in FISA court. We only just learned about it in 2014.

Who knows if the FBI's request carries as much as the NSA's. Probably not. Former NSA Director Michael Hayden confirms it was easier for him to get things done than the FBI [2]

[1] http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/sep/11/yahoo-nsa-lawsu...

[2] https://youtu.be/_ESGBPmf0mc?t=45m9s

Re:Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, ... by giancarlostoro on Thursday March 17, 2016 @07:13PM (#11308417)
If the engineers got fired or quit their jobs what could be done then I wonder?
Re:Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, ... by kabdib on Thursday March 17, 2016 @07:24PM (#11308479)
Apple HR to security engineer: "You're fired! The color of your hair is all wrong!" (Yes, you can do this in California)

Security engineer: "Meep?"

HR: "That's right. Oh, and here, since you were such a great employee (up until we noticed your hair, anyway), have this extremely generous dollar amount severance package. Maybe if your hair is a different color someday we'll hire you back."

:

Apple to FBI: "We have no one with the expertise to work on this. Golly, sorry about that."

Is the FBI then going to make a grab for source code, signing keys, and conscript people to do the work?

Re:Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, ... by plorkyeran on Thursday March 17, 2016 @07:29PM (#11308517)
> Is the FBI then going to make a grab for source code, signing keys, and conscript people to do the work?

I think it's become clear that they'd at least try.

Re:Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, ... by hkmurakami on Thursday March 17, 2016 @07:45PM (#11308621)
Interesting. A draft targeting software engineers to forcibly enlist them in the government's "war on encryption".

What kind of dystopia are we living in again?

Re:Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, ... by frandroid on Thursday March 17, 2016 @11:58PM (#11309778)
Not a draft. As we've seen in Snowden, there are tons of engineers who support the security state and will volunteer to serve.
Re:Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, ... by ridgeguy on Thursday March 17, 2016 @09:37PM (#11309220)
I don't think this could happen without enabling legislation.

The U.S. military draft required passage of the Selective Service Act [1] Something similar would be required before Apple's coders could be forced to carry out court orders directed at Apple, the corporation. Even in these times (so far!) I think this wouldn't happen.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selective_Service_Act_of_1917

Re:Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, ... by deegles on Thursday March 17, 2016 @07:53PM (#11308666)
Unfortunately I'm sure there are at least a few engineers with the expertise necessary who would happily agree to work with the FBI (for whatever reason.)
Re:Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, ... by giancarlostoro on Thursday March 17, 2016 @08:15PM (#11308801)
Maybe engineers with military history.
Re:Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, ... by dagw on Friday March 18, 2016 @04:04AM (#11310491)
Is the FBI then going to make a grab for source code, signing keys, and conscript people to do the work?

No, they're going to grab for source code, signing keys, and _pay_ people to do the work. There are lots of competent engineers out there, and not all of them share your politics (and some that do might be willing to reconsider it for a sufficiently large dollar amount).

Hell there are probably engineers working at the NSA right now who would easily do it as part of their day to day job if you just handed them the keys and source code.

Re:Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, ... by tgsovlerkhgsel on Friday March 18, 2016 @03:25AM (#11310390)
If they have the source, documentation, and signing keys, they don't have to conscript anyone. They can have one of their people do it, or hire a non-Apple engineer with low morals who is willing to do it.
Re:Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, ... by smitherfield on Thursday March 17, 2016 @07:30PM (#11308535)
At-will employment does not extend to firing people in order to not comply with a court order.
Re:Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, ... by kabdib on Thursday March 17, 2016 @07:37PM (#11308583)
HR to security engineer: "You're quitting? That's a shame. Um . . . Tim Cook has a beach house he wouldn't mind you using for a while. Can you walk his dog?"

My point is, the individuals won't suffer.

Re:Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, ... by smitherfield on Thursday March 17, 2016 @08:16PM (#11308805)
When you get a lawful court order, you comply with it. To do otherwise would result in massive fines and quite possibly executives being criminally charged. If the Apple security engineers want to quit on principle, then it truly would be on principle; there is absolutely no way Apple's legal department would allow them to ever be rehired or offered any compensation/gifts beyond a standard severance package. If engineers did quit, Apple would be forced to (at great expense) temporarily hire other people with comparable expertise in order to comply with the order.

That said, Apple security engineers probably would land on their feet.

Re:Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, ... by kabdib on Thursday March 17, 2016 @08:36PM (#11308943)
But "great expense" enters into the all-writs test. That would have to be re-examined.
Re:Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, ... by ridgeguy on Thursday March 17, 2016 @09:47PM (#11309259)
I'm not sure Apple could be fined if its relevant employees took individual decisions that resulted in Apple's inability to comply with the court's order.

Apple doesn't have the ability to compel an individual's conduct. The court's order applies to Apple, not to named individuals. Given that, I don't see a legal basis for fines, executive criminal charges, etc.

I think there's a lot of power in the hands of a few employees (and potential replacements) here. It'll be interesting to see what they decide to do.

Re:Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, ... by smitherfield on Thursday March 17, 2016 @09:53PM (#11309279)
They could certainly be fined, charged with obstruction of justice/contempt of court etc, if Apple gave monetary or other incentives to its employees to make said decisions, as the commenter I was responding to was suggesting.
Re:Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, ... by kabdib on Thursday March 17, 2016 @10:22PM (#11309426)
What about good references? What about "Okay, we understand, but we'll gladly have you back (with a signing bonus) when this blows over?"

A court order doesn't extend to Apple being required to be a dick to its ex-employees.

(And yeah, if any of you folks want a job, there are a zillion people on HN happy to talk, I'm sure)

Re:Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, ... by pchristensen on Thursday March 17, 2016 @08:08PM (#11308759)
"You're quitting? And leaving a hard technical division of the most financially successful and popular tech product of its generation? And your only recourse is the Silicon Valley job market? ... ... We'll miss you but I'm sure you'll land on your feet."
Re:Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, ... by dogecoinbase on Thursday March 17, 2016 @07:24PM (#11308481)
Impossible to know without the actual employment documents, but also curious if the DoJ could be considered a tortfeasor for disrupting an employment contract in that case.
Re:Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, ... by ridgeguy on Thursday March 17, 2016 @09:55PM (#11309290)
My guess would be that some stretch of sovereign immunity [1] would shield DoJ.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereign_immunity

Re:Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, ... by differentView on Thursday March 17, 2016 @07:47PM (#11308634)
After those engineers quit, Apple should hire a bunch of terrible engineers with impressive resumes (bonus if they used to work for the FBI) and put them to work on this.
Re:Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, ... by phire on Thursday March 17, 2016 @07:32PM (#11308546)
I'm not sure this approach will work now that the Government has pushed the fight public.
Re:Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, ... by AnimalMuppet on Thursday March 17, 2016 @08:05PM (#11308739)
Could you provide a reference to this? I don't recall what you're referring to.
Re:Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, ... by studentrob on Thursday March 17, 2016 @09:46PM (#11309252)
Re:Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, ... by ohyeshedid on Thursday March 17, 2016 @10:56PM (#11309557)
No, because it's a publicly traded company. Apple's size, value, and market penetration are a few of the reasons why the feds didn't go the NSL route. This is one ugly fight, but if they went the NSL route Apple could finally disprove their constitutional validity; DOJ would neeeeeever want to put that on the table.
Re:Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, ... by tonydiv on Thursday March 17, 2016 @07:25PM (#11308493)
Yeah, they believe they can get whatever they want. They won't care about the implications of their demands.
Re:Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, ... by maxerickson on Thursday March 17, 2016 @08:04PM (#11308732)
I don't think Apple shareholders will go along with shuttering the company, nor will they lose all that many customers over the outcome where they produce a bypass.

(If Apple can't resist the government request, neither can anyone else, only the crankiest of people will punish them for being the test case.)

Re:Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, ... by zippergz on Thursday March 17, 2016 @07:18PM (#11308453)
My guess: yes.