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Re:I’ve Had a Cyberstalker Since I Was 12 by fpgaminer on Wednesday March 02, 2016 @12:56AM (#11208334)
> It's often hard for men to understand the societal pressure placed on women to be accommodating and not be rude and how this can be manipulated to constrain female agency in the world.

Sorry, but I'm going to have to call out this statement as sexist. There are also several other strange "facts" being passed around in other comments which are similarly biased. To be clear, I'm not calling you sexist. In fact, I think your comment makes a great point about submission to societal pressures leading to these sorts of problems.

Getting back to the quoted statement, I strongly suspect both genders are equally susceptible to being manipulated by societal pressures. I also don't think men find it hard to understand this. If there's data to show otherwise, I welcome it. In its absence, I believe it more wise to hold this neutral view rather than perpetuating a gender bias.

Let's use Curb Your Enthusiasm as a means to elucidate my argument. The lead character in that show gets into all manner of uncomfortable and disastrous situations as a result of bending to societal pressures; not wanting to be "rude". The lead character is male and I'll bet more guys than not can relate. Perhaps not to the same scale as what is portrayed in the show, because the show is meant to be entertaining, but perhaps more on the level of The Office (US) awkwardness.

So I doubt that societal malleability differs between the genders. You're still right in bringing it up, though, because indeed this habit of not wanting to be rude is clearly a contributing factor to cyberstalking cases. I just don't think it's what leads to a greater number of females being victims versus males.

Re:I’ve Had a Cyberstalker Since I Was 12 by dandelany on Wednesday March 02, 2016 @02:13AM (#11208514)
It is not sexist to observe that, in many or most societies on Earth, men and women are systematically treated differently in many social and professional contexts. Nor is it "perpetuating a gender bias" to posit that some of this difference in experiences between the genders may cause one group to be more affected by some societal pressures than the other.

I'm not saying it is one way or the other. Regardless, playing the sexism/bias card here is overreacting: you have one hypothesis, OP has another, neither of you has presented any evidence or argument. Larry David doesn't count.

Re:I’ve Had a Cyberstalker Since I Was 12 by hueving on Wednesday March 02, 2016 @10:51AM (#11210650)
That's not what is being called sexist. What is sexist is claiming men can't understand societal pressures.
Re:I’ve Had a Cyberstalker Since I Was 12 by scott_s on Wednesday March 02, 2016 @11:00AM (#11210721)
And no one is claiming that. What is being claimed is that it is hard for men to understand this particular societal pressure that women experience.

That is, if a man understands the concepts of societal pressures, they still may not be immediately aware of this societal pressure; it may not be obvious to them, as they do not experience it.

Re:I’ve Had a Cyberstalker Since I Was 12 by mcv on Wednesday March 02, 2016 @10:24AM (#11210464)
Both genders are subjected to the pressure to conform to social expectations, and those pressures by themselves are often harmful and holding us back. But the pressures exerted on men and women are often very different, and it is important to be aware of those differences. Only by being aware of these pressures and understanding the differences, can we really address them and do something about them.

That women are expected to be polite and accommodating is absolutely sexist, and resisting that pressure can sometimes be just as dangerous as giving in to it.

But that men are expected to not cry and be strong and dominant and all that crap, that is just as harmful. To men, and to society.

Re:I’ve Had a Cyberstalker Since I Was 12 by prawn on Wednesday March 02, 2016 @01:27AM (#11208416)
I agree that men also feel pressure to accommodate requests they might rather not.

I think it can arise due to an imbalance of whatever sort. I've been in that position with males with whom I didn't want to escalate a situation and with males while on their home turf (say, in a strange country). But I tend not to fear being assaulted by a woman or tricked/trapped by a woman in a foreign country. People routinely get scammed because they are too polite or fearful to say no or walk away.

Females might feel that imbalance a little more?

Re:I’ve Had a Cyberstalker Since I Was 12 by Jean-Philipe on Wednesday March 02, 2016 @07:24AM (#11209499)
> Sorry, but I'm going to have to call out this statement as sexist.

Here we go again. Somebody pointing out gender bias is blamed for being sexist.

Re:I’ve Had a Cyberstalker Since I Was 12 by _Codemonkeyism on Wednesday March 02, 2016 @10:38AM (#11210557)
The comment is blamed for being sexist because

"It's often hard for men to understand the societal pressure placed on women"

as this is making wide sweeping assumptions about men behaviour based on the world view of the poster not because of pointing out gender bias.

Re:I’ve Had a Cyberstalker Since I Was 12 by randyrand on Wednesday March 02, 2016 @02:49PM (#11212487)
Making sweeping generalizations about a gender is sexist. You might as well be saying women are more suited for child rearing and sandwich making.
Re:I’ve Had a Cyberstalker Since I Was 12 by d0lph on Wednesday March 02, 2016 @11:21AM (#11210872)
> To be clear, I'm not calling you sexist.

Same paragraph ...

Re:I’ve Had a Cyberstalker Since I Was 12 by dwild on Wednesday March 02, 2016 @11:17AM (#11210840)
It's not because you are pointing out gender bias that you doesn't say sexist things.
Re:I’ve Had a Cyberstalker Since I Was 12 by KaiserPro on Wednesday March 02, 2016 @05:23AM (#11209105)
you're railing against the observation, making discussion of the causes difficult and therefore possible solution discovery possible.

If we are to tackle social problems, we can't argue about language of the problem for fear of being branded as *ist

we don't do this about high blood pressure, or diabetes. The way you are arguing is actually a logical extension of the original observation in the parent. The original statement was actually present rather well.

You make the correct observation that women and men have the same mental faculties (if taken as a whole, individuals will vary.) However you make a grand gesture of pointing out that women and men are the same. We know this, the original post implied this.

Re:I’ve Had a Cyberstalker Since I Was 12 by hueving on Wednesday March 02, 2016 @10:50AM (#11210643)
No, you missed the point. It's not that men and women are the same. It's that men do understand societal pressures and it's sexist to imply otherwise.
Re:I’ve Had a Cyberstalker Since I Was 12 by scott_s on Wednesday March 02, 2016 @10:57AM (#11210702)
The societal pressures tend to be different, and it is not sexist to say that members of each gender may not immediately understand the particulars of the pressure they receive.
Re:I’ve Had a Cyberstalker Since I Was 12 by KaiserPro on Wednesday March 02, 2016 @02:48PM (#11212471)
take the diabetes example, by saying it is hard to understand what its like to have diabetes, does that make me a diabet-ist?

no. its just pointing out that empathy is a difficult skill.

Re:I’ve Had a Cyberstalker Since I Was 12 by scott_s on Wednesday March 02, 2016 @10:58AM (#11210710)
Both genders receive societal pressure. But they receive different societal pressure. It is not sexist to suggest that members of a gender many not understand the particulars of the pressure experienced by the other gender.
Re:I’ve Had a Cyberstalker Since I Was 12 by anupamsr on Wednesday March 02, 2016 @03:27AM (#11208729)
Get married. See the true societal pressure.
Re:I’ve Had a Cyberstalker Since I Was 12 by jahewson on Wednesday March 02, 2016 @03:32AM (#11208750)
> I strongly suspect both genders are equally susceptible to being manipulated by societal pressures.

Sure but which gender does society place more pressures on?

Re:I’ve Had a Cyberstalker Since I Was 12 by wutbrodo on Wednesday March 02, 2016 @07:39AM (#11209548)
I won't pretend that I know what the answer to this is, but the idea that the answer is evident is fucking absurd. Gender roles cut quite sharply both ways, and the only way to think otherwise is willful ignorance: for one extremely obvious example to anyone with even a second of thought, how often do you see men crying?
Re:I’ve Had a Cyberstalker Since I Was 12 by YouYouMeMe on Wednesday March 02, 2016 @10:43AM (#11210601)
Perhaps the one that is absent from any group of older people in the mall because it dies 5 years earlier? The one that is most often sent to war? The one that has substantial more suicides?
Re:I’ve Had a Cyberstalker Since I Was 12 by okasaki on Wednesday March 02, 2016 @10:07AM (#11210340)
The one with 3x more suicides?
Re:I’ve Had a Cyberstalker Since I Was 12 by Lawtonfogle on Wednesday March 02, 2016 @12:29PM (#11211427)
Which gender gets killed most often at work because of a social pressure that your value is determined by having a job, so if the only job options are dangerous, you best take one anyways?

Unless we can get a well defined and agreed upon definition of 'more social pressed' and a way to measure such, we could spend all day running in circles on this issue.

Re:I’ve Had a Cyberstalker Since I Was 12 by dragonwriter on Wednesday March 02, 2016 @11:03AM (#11210750)
> Sure but which gender does society place more pressures on?

I'm not sure that there is a good, unambiguous, and meaningful way of doing a unidimensional quantification of that to make that comparison. Its probably better to recognize that each gender has different socially-imposed expectations, that create problems in different situations and present different opportunities for conflicts with between internal preferences and drives and external expectations.

You can then meaningfully discuss differences (including "which gender is more affected") between pressures in particular contexts, such as pressures to accommodate social advances in situations that compromise personal safety, without getting into a competition on the vague issue of "which gender is exposed to more social pressures" in some murky overall sense.

Re:I’ve Had a Cyberstalker Since I Was 12 by GFK_of_xmaspast on Wednesday March 02, 2016 @04:14PM (#11213057)
Speaking as a dude who pays attention and listen to people of all genders, it's absolutely women.
Re:I’ve Had a Cyberstalker Since I Was 12 by varjag on Wednesday March 02, 2016 @02:59AM (#11208637)
How many men end up kept in bunkers against their will by women?
Re:I’ve Had a Cyberstalker Since I Was 12 by jeppew on Wednesday March 02, 2016 @04:42AM (#11208984)
well to take your question a bit literally, men have quite a long history of being pressured into soldiering. First thing that hit my mind when i read your question: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_feather
Re:I’ve Had a Cyberstalker Since I Was 12 by varjag on Wednesday March 02, 2016 @08:32AM (#11209765)
You of course realize that this was the same kind of social conditioning and gender role pressure that the grandparent post is downplaying?
Re:I’ve Had a Cyberstalker Since I Was 12 by pitay on Wednesday March 02, 2016 @09:46AM (#11210182)
No, the grandparent post was saying that men were similarly influenced by societal pressures. It wasn't downplaying the societal pressure.
Re:I’ve Had a Cyberstalker Since I Was 12 by popmystack on Wednesday March 02, 2016 @10:12AM (#11210371)
No one said they weren't. And then he called the statement sexist.

It's being used to downplay the original statement -- not add to it.

Re:I’ve Had a Cyberstalker Since I Was 12 by pitay on Wednesday March 02, 2016 @10:32AM (#11210519)
I was responding to varjag's post, which was saying that the grandparent post was downplaying the societal pressure, which it wasn't. It was a correction to that false statement.
Re:I’ve Had a Cyberstalker Since I Was 12 by varjag on Wednesday March 02, 2016 @10:10AM (#11210350)
The situation for the genders is asymmetric and so the effects of non-conformance have different outcomes. If I had to post an "all lives matter" argument in a thread about racism on blacks it would absolutely be downplaying racism, even if the statement is technically correct.
Re:I’ve Had a Cyberstalker Since I Was 12 by pitay on Wednesday March 02, 2016 @10:47AM (#11210631)
I am not familiar with this 'all lives matter' thing, so I will ignore that for the moment, it also seems to be off-topic.

Did you know that the effects of non-conformance have different outcomes with different people. You might say that is a useless thing to say, and you'd be right. Just as the non-explanation you put about genders and non-conformance is as well. And my post had nothing to say that it wasn't asymmetric, so your response was changing the subject.

The grandparent post you mentioned in your post before was asking for evidence before assuming that females were more susceptible to societal pressures, as that is playing to a stereotype. He suggested that it is wiser to take a neutral view. My post corrected you when you said that that post was trying to downplay the societal pressure, it wasn't.

Your response with the "all lives matter" sideshow is changing the argument again and is quite dishonest. Just like you misrepresented the "grandparent post".

Re:I’ve Had a Cyberstalker Since I Was 12 by pitay on Wednesday March 02, 2016 @11:00AM (#11210723)
I would like to mention my sympathies are with that lady, saying that it was here fault for not being rude is obnoxious. There is way too little being done about stalking and other repeated behaviours that aggregate to the detriment of someones life.

Just so you don't get me wrong.

Re:I’ve Had a Cyberstalker Since I Was 12 by dracht on Wednesday March 02, 2016 @04:12AM (#11208882)
How many women can physically dominate an average man?
Re:I’ve Had a Cyberstalker Since I Was 12 by JulianMorrison on Wednesday March 02, 2016 @06:17AM (#11209260)
Humans aren't averages. A randomly chosen woman will almost always have some fraction of men out there she can physically dominate. And some women are just plain tough and could physically impose on nearly all men. And yet men don't worry and walk faster when the woman they're alone with in the parking lot looks like she could bench a truck.
Re:I’ve Had a Cyberstalker Since I Was 12 by oldmanjay on Wednesday March 02, 2016 @10:02AM (#11210300)
I'm not certain what your point was intended to be, but human men are far stronger than human women with very rare exception. A randomly chosen women is unlikely to be able to physically dominate any man at all, absent deformity. The difference is quite stark.

Certainly a highly trained female body builder is an exception, but they are also vanishingly rare in the population and very unlikely to be randomly chosen.

Sorry. This is one area that feminism doesn't cover with its hypothesis of equality.

Re:I’ve Had a Cyberstalker Since I Was 12 by varjag on Wednesday March 02, 2016 @10:16AM (#11210402)
I'm not sure what this whole chain of reasoning has to do with the argument at hand.

Most of the violence and rape committed to male victims has male perpetrators. Does it follow that most men can overpower an average man? Are feminists still to blame here?

Re:I’ve Had a Cyberstalker Since I Was 12 by Lawtonfogle on Wednesday March 02, 2016 @12:32PM (#11211459)
Do we count the men she can get help using social leverage? One only needs to watch the videos of domestic violence experiments where they swap genders. The reactions show that while men might be able to win if they were isolated on an island, the total power within society is not in the man's favor. Unless you are in a culture which tolerates DV regardless of gender, in which case men do have it better.
Re:I’ve Had a Cyberstalker Since I Was 12 by conceit on Thursday March 03, 2016 @08:01AM (#11216557)
like, with weapons or are those metaphysical, or surreal or why do you ask?
Re:I’ve Had a Cyberstalker Since I Was 12 by clbrook on Wednesday March 02, 2016 @12:23PM (#11211370)
This discussion reminds me of a Margaret Atwood quotation:

“Men are afraid that women will laugh at them. Women are afraid that men will kill them.”

Perhaps this can shed a new perspective on why women and men may or may not bend to societal pressures differently.

Re:I’ve Had a Cyberstalker Since I Was 12 by kaitai on Wednesday March 02, 2016 @10:06AM (#11210332)
The poster is not saying that social malleability differs between genders, but that social pressures differ.

When's the last time you were hollered at to smile more, for instance?

Re:I’ve Had a Cyberstalker Since I Was 12 by maaku on Wednesday March 02, 2016 @11:40AM (#11211031)
But if you don't conform to social pressures you are either an "asshole" or a "bitch" depending on your gender. Being an asshole is socially acceptable if you are successful. Being a bitch is not under any circumstances.
Re:I’ve Had a Cyberstalker Since I Was 12 by mpweiher on Wednesday March 02, 2016 @12:02PM (#11211198)
Wut? (Some) Successful/attractive women carry their bitchiness as a badge of honour. As in "I am so attractive/successful, I can be as bitchy as I please". Which is why some people are attracted to bitches/assholes.
Re:I’ve Had a Cyberstalker Since I Was 12 by maaku on Wednesday March 02, 2016 @12:04PM (#11211214)
And people talk derogatorily about her behind her back. But successful assholes? Heaps of praise. (Think: Steve Jobs).